Why "Average" in Sales is No Longer Enough in the AI Era | Mark Collins | #82

If you take the examples of like Messi and Ronaldo, Ronaldo is someone that is disciplined, works meticulously, and then you've got Messi who's probably more naturally gifted. >> Yeah. The same in sales. >> I do think you can train it. You and I have worked very hard and we've trained to become world class sales people. >> The key thing for me is like when I'm working with one of my clients that the most important thing for them is can they take complex things and make them simple so that anyone anywhere will understand it. Gone of the days where you can be transactional. It's too competitive. uh in AI is coming in, chat GBT is coming in. I think the one thing that we bring is EQ. It's reading the room like would you have a beer with this person outside of work? Would you not want to kill this person after a 24-hour flight on an airplane? It's really important to try and make the time to talk to as many people as possible. Don't put off some conversations because ultimately a lot of those conversations will lead on to be decision makers. People don't forget, they remember the bad things, not necessarily the good things. It's it's really bloody key to make sure that you make the effort with these people. My sort of mantra is like finding people early on in their career and and seeing them grow and progress in every stage of their career. I've been really lucky over the last 15 years to be involved in this space. It's now the point where I'm building teams for them >> and then lo and behold every 18 to 24 months they're succession planning and they're calling me back and then it goes on like that. >> Again, I love it. That life cycle >> as soon as you stop being real >> people will know it. You know, you've got to be authentic. Find something that makes you different in what you do. >> You and I have been in sales for three decades. And I think some people are born with the gift of the gab. Me and you. >> You more so than me. >> I don't know about that. But but um and then other people work it. But the reality is I think the more I think about it's got to be in your core. It's got to be in your dinner. Otherwise, it's not sustainable. You've got to have the lyrics. >> Yeah. Know you I mean it's one thing being talented. If you take the examples of like Messi and Ronaldo. Yeah. You know they are unbelievably gifted athletes, right? But you know in my mind, you know, Ronaldo is someone that is disciplined, works meticulously, he's crazy. And then you've got Messi who's probably more naturally gifted. Yeah. >> The same in sales. But ultimately, >> I do agree with you. you you need to have that, you know, that va va voom or whatever you want to call it, right? But like you've got to believe in what you're selling, you know, wake up and think, you know what, I'm looking forward to going to work. I believe in the product. I believe in the brand, you know, I'm looking forward to this. And I think, you know, if you don't have that, when you're trying to sell something to someone, whether it be an opportunity or a move or whatever, >> they'll pick up on it, >> you know, and if you stay in the market long enough, it's all about legacy stuff. people that you work with 10, 15 years ago, you know, if they're the right type of candidate, they will grow and progress. They'll end up being hiring managers. And I think particularly in recruitment, it can become quite shortsighted. You know, people go into it with the illusion that I'm going to earn some quick money. This is going to be transactional. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, fair play. that that's that's what it's easy to understand why they think that, but I think you know the most successful people are the ones that stay in the same sector long time and they're resilient to change and they adapt to change. >> Love that. Yeah, I do think you can train it. Of course, you can train it, but and and you and I have worked very hard and we've trained to become world-class salespeople. I would say world class, but maybe you >> No, but I but what I find really interesting is though when I really analyze it, it's like I know people that have developed all these skills, but they can't just go and have a coffee or a beer with someone and enjoy a conversation. It's it's it's just too transactional. So people they've got want to work with you. They call Mark, how you doing? Yeah, I've got some work. You want to, you know, come do something? You go, yes, mate. Let's go. >> No, and I agree with you. I mean to be fair I always use the phrase IQ EQ you know the people that I work with are they're the top 1 percentile you know they're ox Oxford Cambridge grads all MBB profiles very very smart consultants and the key thing for me is like when I'm working with one of my clients the fundamentally the the most important thing for them is Mark can they take complex things and make them simple so that anyone anywhere will understand it and I think that that principle applies for anything >> everything I talked about that yesterday cuz I said anyone can take something simple, make it complex and no one understands it. But if you can reverse engineer it, that's when you know what you're talking about. >> Exactly. And I think you know what makes a good leader is those principles. And like my my my sort of mantra is like finding people early on in their career and and seeing them grow and progress in every stage of their career, getting involved in their development. And you know, I've been really lucky over the last 15 years to be involved in this space and have seen people actually do that. So that it's now a point where I'm building teams for them. Yeah. >> And then lo and behold, every 18 to 24 months they're succession planning and they're calling me back and then it goes on like that. >> So again, I love it. That life cycle. Um 2001 Singapore beckons. What's your memory? How did that come about? >> So Singapore came about because of you. >> What's your memory of that phone call or whatever happened? >> Um so I remember meeting uh Roger Smart. He was the founder of Robertson Smart back in the day. Um, Paul, you obviously put in the the word for me to have a chat with him and he came to the UK and sat me down and you'd obviously sold me the dream and I had, you know, no commitment to the time and I was like, "This sounds amazing." You know, free holiday, I can go over there for two weeks, basically sus the place out, have some beers with my pal, live in a beautiful pad and think about potentially joining with no real, you know, tag. >> And we we're 22 at the time, guys. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I came over, we had the holiday, I preempted it, I brought some clothes over already because I knew I was going to make the make the um the leap of faith, which I did in the end. Um and then, you know, I came back, told my parents that this is what I was going to do. And funnily enough, my uncle was um very high up. Um he was retired at the time, but he worked for he was a chief insurance commissioner for a lot of the the big banks. Um, so he knew the area and I told him and he's like, "Well, first thing you need to do is sort your nails out because they're disgusting." Um, and and go to elecution lessons. Um, >> thanks. Thanks, Ank. >> Cheers, Ank. Um, but but yeah, so that that was my first memory. And then when I first came on board, it was >> it was a different market then. >> Yeah. >> You know, it was we we got in and we were like the youngest in in that group >> and we were brought in because we were seen as the London boys. we were a bit louder and what Roger was trying to create at the time was a bit more of a of a noise in the in the office rather than just you know tapping on a keyboard and sending emails which was the thing that has just come into play then. Um but it was it was good but it was a tough market. I mean we were there with September 11th right and it was the markets just financial markets just crashed and burned and no one could have predicted that. >> Yeah. >> Um it was really really strange. >> Yeah. when you look back at your time, you know, like when you describe it to your family and the kids, apart from the R-rated stuff, what how how do you think of it when you look back? Because it's it's kind of full circle for you. It's like quarter of a century later and you're back here. >> Yeah, I mean it is it's it's strange coming back after all this time, but >> I'm quite proud that I did it because a lot of people go through life not trying something >> and at least, you know, I came out of my comfort zone. I gave it a go. It was it was really good for me, you know, socially, um, professionally, you know. Um, I I did go back for a couple of different reasons, but I don't regret going back because I'd made some good friendships. I had a I had a great ch um great time over here. Um, but yeah, it was just I loved it and I it's just so weird coming back and seeing all the development and seeing the old places and talking to the cab. when I take you for a drive tomorrow and we we'll have a little look in the evening, you'll see, >> you know, how different everything is and I'll say, "Mate, that didn't exist there. That whole place is reclaimed land." And you're like, "Really?" And it's just like it's bonkers. >> But it's it's still the same vibe. >> No, no, it is. >> It's just the people are still really really nice there. They're engaging. I think that's always been the case. You know, when we first came over, we were told like when you give a business card, make sure you actually give it with two hands. Show appreciation. you know, they like the attentive nature, whereas, you know, back in the UK, it's like you you literally take it and you put it in your pocket. >> It's just you can't do that. It's just rude. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had one guy that I met >> and he threw his name card down as a CEO of a bank and I said, "You are absolutely the worldass ticket everyone says you are." And then I I left. >> Was this here? >> Yeah. And I left. And um >> You still in touch with that person? >> I've actually became very good friends with him, but I left. And the the head of strategic recruitment who I knew really well like looked at me because he organized the meeting like Paul what have you just done and I said to him afterwards privately you should never have introduced me to that guy if you knew unless you prepped him cuz the one thing about me I don't suffer fools right you don't and um never have done and then he was like the next time I met him he stood up and he shook my hand and goes oh Mr. Quinn, really nice to meet you. >> But you know what? Just on that though, it's it's being brave enough to call people out. You know, it's being brave enough to tell them that you're not right for this role because of these reasons. It's being brave enough to actually give honest feedback to people that you get from clients because >> more often than not, >> they don't get the truth. >> I'd say 85% of candidates don't get the truth from recruiters in terms of actual feedback and like >> they don't know why it didn't happen, what went down. be exactly that you know but it's guiding them through that process you know it's gone of the days where you can be transactional it's too competitive you know uh in AI is coming in chat GBT is coming in it's trying to obviously take away a lot of the due diligence that people do the models the metrics the analysis but I think the one thing that we bring is EQ it's reading the room like would you have a beer with this person outside of work >> could would you not want to kill this person after a 24-hour flight on an airplane you You know, but that's what clients want, right? 100%. You know, you can't have someone leading a business that looks great on paper, but you know, outside of work, >> you think it they're an absolute tool. >> Yeah. When were you last in Singapore? >> O um 24 years ago, I think I made the uh the journey over to join you in our journey with Robertson Smart back in the day. >> That's when we last lived together. >> Indeed, we did. >> And by the way, we were friends, not boyfriends. I mean, Paul probably what the more the former than the latter, but yeah. >> Listen, I've I've always been in love with you. There's there's no denying that. >> I can't blame you. >> Now, for people that don't know you, my audience members, can you be kind enough to give a quick intro and then we'll turn back the pages of time and talk about our journey together as friends and your journey as a recruiter? >> Of course. Um, so I've known Paul since university days. Um I won't go into how we we first met but yeah we started we did a similar course in sort of business economics and stuff. Um we then stayed contact we we made a shift into uh recruitment in Singapore. Um I was here for a shorter stint than he was. He's that since stayed and made a great career for himself and built a fluffy family. I returned to the UK and went into the rat race um which was known as blueco collar working um in a company called Haze Construction Property where I set up and ran lots of different um trades and labor desk and that's where my recruitment started. I then sort of moved up the ranks gradually into more managerial stuff. I went into education when the construction boom hit an all-time low. Um and then I made the shift into London. I moved out of the south into what was now strategy which is what I've been doing over the last now 16 years. So yeah, so I I work within the strategy arena working with the smartest people in the planet covering sort of retail consumer. So that's me in a in a whistle stop tour. >> I love it mate. Well the the thing is there's so many things that I love and admire about you but number one is you're just really very resilient. You're loyal. You never give up and um that's been shown throughout your career, right? Yeah, I mean to be fair, anything you do, you got to be resilient. There's always going to be changes, right? But, you know, it's about how you navigate out those changes. And I think, you know, you you need to become authentic in what you do. You know, average is not good enough anymore. Back in the day, it was >> it was mass recruitment. And what we've probably both seen is there's been a shift in that. And I think, you know, the ones that have come out successful or unscathed are the ones that have kept up with change, you know, that are prepared to roll their sleeves up. you know, look at ways of making different types of money, opening different doors, and not just doing, okay, well, it's not working. I'll just keep doing it until it re reapproaches its head or whatever. But yeah, it's adapting to change. >> You know, I don't know whether or not many of your clients, candidates, or colleagues know that you are an amazingly well-rounded sportsman. >> I was. >> You were past. That's what my dad used to say. back in the day obviously um my my father was quite you know a militant guy and you know he he said right if you're going to do something you do it well and and that's how he brought me up you know and I did that within swimming babon squash um as you know I've obviously >> you whooped you at swimming >> and and the funny thing is you were a longdistance swimmer >> yeah yeah I was a 1500 meter swimmer so I was awful at short course but long course I was great I mean I think the best time I did was probably just under 20 minutes which circuit every 25 meters it's like 18 seconds 17 seconds so >> but yeah I've always been like that you know it was you know I get up early do early morning training go to school come back train in the evenings galas or weekends and then I shifted into bon um I did that a high level and then I shifted into squash later on in my in my years um which I loved and I've funny enough just gone back into bminton because I'm now almost joined the over 50 group >> the seniors >> the seniors >> well look when we live together the thing that I really marveled at, and there not many guys like us that are similar. You were always up at 6:00 a.m. >> Your bed was made. >> You almost Did you iron your bed covers? >> Almost. >> No. Almost. >> You know what I mean? It was like your your bed your bedroom is like an army camp. >> I mean, it was weird. >> Yeah. >> I mean, my wife would contest to this, but like I'm probably not the cleanest, but I'm the tidiest. I put things away so you can't see them, but like when I was younger Yeah, you are right. I mean, my clothes were out packed ready. My books were packed ready at like 8 years old, 9 years old. And that's never really got away from me. And I still to this day wake up at stupid o' you know one because the dog needs to go to the toilet, but even still I'm up. I'm doing stuff whether it be doing the dishwasher or walking the dog or putting the bins out. Just silly little things. But my mind's always ticking. It's always been like that. >> It's mad. But I think your your your success as a recruiter as a professional is grounded in sports and the way that your parents raised you. >> No, I I agree with you. I mean to be fair sport definitely helps. I mean most the some of the most successful people in recruitment I've seen you know come from sport um or some form of competitive background. You know my current um boss that I work with worked he he did a very high level rugby. >> By the way when people say my current boss it's not like you wouldn't say my current wife would you? Maybe you would. >> No I wouldn't to be fair. No, I mean, um, yeah, my my current boss who brought me over to Venari Partners is one of the most prolific salespeople I've ever met. He's the number one, probably number two in his market globally. And, you know, for me, it's all about no matter what you're doing, it's looking at someone thinking, you know what, do I believe in what you're telling me? Um, can I see myself learning from it? And am I going to have fun doing it? And I think the day you wake up in anything you do and it's not there, then you question that and think about something else. I mean before we get started and go back I want to tell a story about you and you know how much I love you. I posted this on social media but um so years ago my dad and you know you you got to know my mom and dad very well and they loved you and um >> I start crying but uh I went back for my dad's quadruple bypass and I didn't have any money. I'd borrowed $1,000 from Kush. I was skint I'd been on a commission only job. I hadn't been paid and I don't know how but you worked out where I was flying into. I never told you cuz I flew into Gatwick, not Heathrow, which is rare. >> Yeah. >> And there you were waiting for me at the airport and you taken the day off um to drive me otherwise I'd had to get the train into central London then train back to Harrow cuz my dad was in North P Hospital and I just I was taken blown away. And then you said I want to spend the day with you, give you some time with your parents, but I want to pay my respects and see your mom and dad. And you know, that meant so much to me. Um, I want to thank you cuz that was huge. >> I mean, first of all, no worries. That's what friends do, right? You know, when you're down, you pick them up when you Yeah. Granted, but like >> there's always going to be a circle of friends that you've got, no matter if you see them every day or you see them once every 3 years or whatever, it's when you know it's real. Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, we were lucky back in the day, um, that we met and we connected through, you know, my introduction, which was quite funny back in the day. >> Are you going to tell her? Are you going to tell anyone? >> Absolutely no chance. Not less a few bodies. Um, but it's it's just being real. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's just reading the room and almost having that sort of sick sense when something's up. Yeah. >> And I when you know, you just know. And I think we just, you know, don't want to speak on your behalf, but we just got along like a house on fire, whether it was talking every day or talking once a week or once a month or whatever, but yeah, we just got on. >> What was your memory of us meeting together in the group of friends that we we kind of, you know, fell into love with. >> Um, I think >> it was a good crowd. It was >> It was a really good crowd to be fair. It was like a a real mix cuz when we went to Brunell it was like an assortment of different people, different backgrounds, different religions and you know it was like I came from Brighton and I was like my god this is proper you know this is amazing this is great and like believe it or not I was really really insecure very very timid. Had very little confidence at the time. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I never would have guessed 100%. And like I think I I I I probably put a huge sort of smoke screen out of like a bravado about me that people thought this guy he's got fully confidence he's cocky blah blah blah. Absolutely not. But then I think the people that we we we made friends with, you know, some of them are still in quite close proximity. Yeah. >> And that's testament, you know, because normally the circles are they start off large, right? And then they gradually over years because of family commitments and changes, they sort of whittle themselves down. But, you know, if we look at our core friends, we've got key friends that you when you come back to the UK like once every 3 years or whatever. It's just like >> like >> it's like we we we've just like met we met the previous night or whatever. It's just really easy. >> You know what I love about the the group of friends we've got is we don't really like Andrew, Tony, none of us ever talk about work. >> We there's nothing no one cares. It's like are you happy? >> You know, is everything good? Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. There's no bravado. It's not like, oh, like how big's your watch or what car you drive it. It's literally like, do you want a beer? >> Yeah. >> How you going? >> Yeah. >> Talk to me. And it's just reminiscing on all the stuff that we got up to as kids. I love it. >> Because you can't put a price tag on that. >> Yeah. It's huge. Um, >> when when we were at uni, you worked at TGI Friday. >> Yeah. Mcccluskies mainly. >> I was in Mccluskies. Yeah. >> So, I I'll I'll lay a story out for for the audience members. So I won a recruitment gig working at the Institute of Electrical Engineers >> at bank. >> I remember >> and my first big gig um that night three wine waiters we were short three wine waiters you I don't even remember the story but I went into a bar and I persuaded these three South Africans to walk out of the bar and tell their boss to f off and >> I do remember that actually to be fair. So what happened was I I got into a lot of trouble because I paid a certain Mark Collins 680 an hour which was the call out rate. That's what we were charging. Yeah. >> And my boss said to me, "What on earth are you doing? You're just paying your mate." And I said, "Look, >> Mark didn't have to come tonight. He earns a lot of money doing what he's doing. Done me a favor and I want you to know something. He actually saved us a lot of money." Goes, I said, "Mark can do the work of three men." And we were serving I remember it was like 250 GMTs. I said, "Mark, you're good." I remember you go I'll be done in 10 minutes, Quinn. >> Yeah. >> Do you remember? And you you would you >> remember what I did? >> Yeah. Go on and tell them. >> So basically I remember coming in and there was like a load of your guys basically with a pore spout and they're pouring in the measurement and going like this. I thought you know what >> cuz the trick we were told in Mccclusky's was before you did um your shift you had to do a pore test which was a line of test tubes and it had different ounces like half an ounce, quarter of an ounce, an ounce and a half, whatever. And the trick is when you when you've got a pore spout in in the spirit bottle, you pour it up. You go like that and you go bubble one, two, three. And like it's a quarter, half 3/4 and a quarter. So you count it in your brain. So you wanted to pour a shot a shot and a half in each of those. So literally all I did was got the bottle and gone bang bang bang bang bang. And within I think five minutes it was all done. >> It was all done. >> Otherwise you'd be there like one, two, then the spillage. But yeah, >> and and just to put into context, we were 18. >> Yeah, >> we were 18 and I had like my brother was working there with two of his mates. They were 15. >> I was just desperate to get people into work and um mate that was that was banging. >> Good memory. >> What? Give me some more memories about uni that you remember like the kind of stuff we got up to and what was your time there like? >> Um yeah, uni was really really good. I mean it was a time that was my first time away from home, right? So I had my own independence and you know at the time I was stringing rackets um because I was playing a lot of sport and that's where I made my money. Yeah. So if I went back at the weekends my mom who's a pro coach at the time she coached the Sussex squads and stuff. Um I'd go back I'd string rackets I'd get some money because I used to charge 10 quid a racket and then that was my beer money. Um so I really looked forward to going back to uni because you know I wasn't rich but I had enough money to enjoy myself at uni. >> And you stayed on site. >> Yeah I stayed on site. The first year was halls. So I think you stayed at home, didn't you? Cuz you're only at the road in >> Har. I only stayed at home the whole time. Yeah. >> And then the second year I was there and then the third year I did my first year in industry which is where I first went into recruitment and that was >> explain cuz uh at uni we had the possibility to do a one-year vocation course. So it's like six months and six months or full 12 months. >> Yeah. Thin thin sandwich and thick sandwiches. So >> what did you do? >> I did thick. So I decided to do two years in uni and then a year out in industry and then a year back in uni. Um, so I ended up taking um a role within Hayes Trades, Hayes Construction of Property. >> But how how did that even come about because recruitment really wasn't a thing, but then all of a sudden it was a thing. Everyone went into it. >> Oh, yeah. Because everyone thought it was a quick buck. So I I ended up taking the role because it was advertised on our careers because basically when you're a student, you have a careers advice where you go in and they um have a relationship with different companies around the area. It could be Mars or Diagio or Unilver. And I found one in Brighton. I thought, you know what, this would be great because I can live at home, save some cash. I'm skinn and have a bit of a laugh with my mates cuz all my mates were in Lond Brighton at the time. So I did that and my god, it was the biggest eye opener I've ever had in my life. So >> I mean this was in 1998 so there was no rules and regulations you know um there was no internet you know there was it was internet and we thought that was amazing seeing internal messages you know I had to physically go down to site with time sheets to get people to sign and get things paid and if I had a multiple composite time sheet with 20 people in the likelihood is that four of those people weren't going to get paid and the likelihood of those getting paid they'd come to the offices barricade the office and come in and drag me out >> physically had to pay them out of my own money >> to get them away because I couldn't afford for them not to turn up. So long the short is they brought me in to build out uh an engineering desk which was then called SCES site engineering services which was quite technical given you know I didn't really know anything about construction at that point let alone setting out you know EDMs and theodolites doing you know foundations and drainage stuff. Um, so overnight I sort of learned the gist and then my job was basically to pick up cold call clients that probably hated us. Um, didn't want to talk to us and then go on site and then represent. Bearing in mind at that point in time I had a full thick blonde head of hair and I looked about 10 years old. So I had rigger boots on, a high viz jacket and a and a helmet. And the amount of abuse that I used to get was ridiculous. >> Love Um, the amount of times I was told to to politely leave the the site offices >> do one >> and do one. The the amount of times I was told I was health and safety and was chased off site. >> But you know what it it really made you it was >> camaraderie like you wouldn't believe back in the day. You know, give you an example. So >> at the end of the day, everyone's doing different trades. If people had jobs to fill, there was a big board, blackboard, and we used to do markup pen stuff and say, "Right, you need x amount of trades there. We'll divvy up a load of names and we all call around to try and fill these jobs." >> That doesn't happen these days. I know it's very different because technology and all that and AI and, you know, chat GBT and stuff, but like >> that really for me enabled me to see some unbelievably talented leaders, some of which I'm still in touch with. um and some really unbelievably talented salespeople and I think you know that's what got me into recruitment in my placement year and I've stayed in touch with those guys. I actually when I went back from Singapore with you I I was asked to come back because I left a bit of a legacy. >> Yeah. Amazing. You know um when I left do you remember I had a massive leaving do? >> Yeah. >> And and maybe 20 people ended up staying in my two-bedroom house and there were bodies all over the floor. >> I've seen the video if you >> seen the video. Right. >> Shocking dancing. Well, by the way, I just came back from Dubai and Deep, who's my ex-girlfriend's little brother, he reminded me. He goes, "Didn't your friend Mark give you a drink?" And he go I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "What is it called?" And I said, "15 Shots from Hell >> MFR." Yeah. >> And um and I just said he absolutely ruined me. He ruined me, >> mate. I told you when I walked in there, I said, "Mate, >> I'm going to ruin you. >> I'm going to ruin you." And I did. >> Tell them what was in that drink. Do you remember? >> It was um I think it was 10 shot 10 different shots. It was actually it was like vodka, Jim, Bicardi, Trip, Bailey's, Kalúa, tequila, um, and a few others. And I've chucked in a few fruit juices for fun. >> And let me tell you something. I drank that. >> And you're not the biggest man, right? >> I'm not. And I'm not a big drink. The thing I'll drink all night, but I'll get drunk after the second one. >> Yeah. >> And you can see my eyes cuz actually that half of that film is like a night vision because we're in a nightclub and my eyes were in separate orbit. You turned you turned into a cross between sort of like um Bruce Springsteen and Jackie Chan. >> I was up on the stage doing >> you literally like that. Um I do remember that vividly. It was a good night to be fair. But yeah, there was a good group of us to be fair. >> But you know you know when I left I remember I was telling Deep I just said I left I was crying at the airport and um I said to him and he didn't and I don't my brother was there my girlfriend was there and I said I'm never coming back. >> You didn't? and they didn't believe. No one really believed me. I just knew. It's just it's a weird thing, right? And it's not that I don't love the UK, but I just I felt maybe certainly where I grew up, it just wasn't it wasn't me. >> No. >> You know, do you know what I mean? >> Well, to be fair, you carved out a niche for yourself here because like >> you look local, >> but you've got all the tendencies of a Londoner. >> Yeah. >> Which at that point in time, early 2000s, was not in Singapore. So you had a real big chance to really say you know what Paul Paul Quinn has landed because there will be no locals that would sound like you, operate like you, act like you and believe in you because they're they had different culture background, right? >> To be fair, I was loud for back home. >> You were loud for back home. Do you know what I mean? Actually only I tell you where I only really feel like I fitted in culturally was in America because >> I'm not surprised. And you like eating as well? >> I love eating. You can tell. Listen, by the way, when we live together, people won't believe us. What was our staple diet? >> Fish, fingers, chips, and beans. Standard >> scrambled eggs. >> Scrambled egg. >> But to be fair, when we started, like we we didn't have a pot to bis in, right? You know, in Singapore when we were together, like we had two pans. It was a frying pan, a big frying pan that was used to do the fish fingers, um, scrambled egg, and bacon and beans, and then a deep pan, which we reused the hot fat to do the the chips. Yeah. >> And we we lived on that for like a good six months, >> you know. But mate, we're still here to live the to tell the tower, right? And we loved it. >> We loved it. But you know, the funny thing is actually I look back our base salary was decent. Um, but we >> 60,000 I think it was, wasn't it? >> No. No. Six grand. Six grand singing a month. That's it. >> So it would be 72k sing. But I you do the math. The exchange rate was pretty favorable. It was it was it was sorted. But we were young. We didn't understand what really we were doing. And we were like >> we were burning the candle at both ends. >> 100%. You know what I mean? >> But that's what you do when you're that age, right? It's a learning curve. >> Well, think about this. You can't when you really think about because most expats have to have they probably have 10 years under their belt and we were 22 living in a beautiful apartment, step out of our place straight into the swimming pool. We were going to Bintan at the weekends and >> that was amazing. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Flipping over to Indonesia. But do you remember we um when we were staying in Emerald Emerald House, I think it was called the condominium. >> It's either Emerald Park or Emerald Gardens. >> I think it was Emerald Park or maybe because I stayed in two places with the same first name. >> Yeah. Yeah. either or. But I remember coming out with you and this was like the Nick Leon, you know, he'd obviously taken down the bank in 959. I can't remember the exact year, but like it was weird. I don't know if you remember, but there was a woman. We were in the jacuzzi. There was a swimming pool bit and then a small jacuzzi bit, a circular bit. And we got in there and there was a lady in there that was probably at that point in her 40s. And we started talking and we saying, "Oh, we're in recruitment. You do financial services, blah, blah, blah." And then she turned around and she said, "Oh, well um I used to work with Nick Lee and I was the product controller." >> You got a bloody good memory. >> And I was just like, "What?" And obviously, you know, at the time I was just learning about product controller, i.e. they do the stuff in the background back room obviously >> all the books. And um she was just telling she started talking about the stories of like what he was like, how this, you know, what he what he achieved, what he took down. It was just amazing being a 22-year-old in Jacuzzi talking to someone of >> bananas. It was it was bananas. >> I remember the lady now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And um I've been in contact with him, by the way. I reached out to him on LinkedIn. >> Nick Le. You're joking. Did he come back to you? >> No, he got back to me about the podcast. We were going back and forth. It's not it's not sorted yet. And um >> that would be amazing chat. >> No, no, but it was it was I'll tell you off camera what what what's gone down, but we'll see what happens. But um the other thing is we got we got Rosie to move into the same condo as us and we had a little community going on. >> That's right. >> Do you remember? That was really cool. She's done well. She's I think she's gone to do property now and she's a lawyer, isn't she? >> She I don't know. I haven't haven't seen her for a minute for a while. >> Um and then you went back and then after that you went back into construction. >> Yep. >> And then when did you decide you want to move up and you want to change things up and you went into education? >> So I went into construction. So they sold me the dream of going in and helping to set up um like a satellite office in Cwley to run Gatwick because Gatwick at the at the time was like it was boom construction. So much going on at that point. >> Do you know why I worked on a building site for a whole summer? >> I mean, you worked on every building site from memory. >> But but in Gatwick, I did steel construction. That's where my fear of heights came in is steel construction. I don't know if I told you this. The two things I don't know if I ever told you this. I was telling Galin the other day. So, >> my dad didn't want me to work with an English crew >> cuz he was Irish. And I said, "Dad, if I work with you, I'm going to be your son. I'm going to get racism wherever I go." >> How many guys look like me on the building site? None >> at that point. >> Yeah. So he said I said, "Look, I'm doing steel construction and I got a license to use the largest Hilty handheld gun and it had a uh a diamond point drill tip and you're screwing into the um reinforced wall." >> Yeah. >> To put the RSJS in and you're doing work. >> It's tough work and you're doing it on an abail. >> So my dad just said he just said when you know when you are screwing that in, you got to hold on >> for your life. You hit you hit a knot back. >> Yeah. And then the the the the drill would spin around. He could break your wrist. Anyway, so I'm with a guy who's having a [ __ ] out of the corner of his mouth. And he's doing it. And I look over at him thinking, "This guy's not taking his job seriously." Exactly what my dad said happened. It went in there, buckled, it broke his wrist, it went round, knocked him out, and he was hanging like like that. And it took me about 20 minutes to get to him. And I was just thinking, please don't upend because you just don't know. >> Yeah. >> So that was where my fear of height started. The second thing happened, they used to, we were on the 14th floor, it was a hotel. They were bringing in the RSJs via a crane. And what would happen is you would put um several uh scaffold tubes down on the floor and you would pull it in and you would tie a rope at one end and the other end and you'd pull it in and you couldn't really control them. So, you just pull it in gradually. And we were told, "Don't tie the rope around your waist because when this thing goes, you're going to go with it. It weigh several tons." And this guy who's, you know, larger than life said, "Oh, yeah, yeah." And he's wrapped around his waist. He's got dragged. He tried to stop himself and he put his hand up and the RSJ went into the wall. His thumb came off. Went straight down. We went down there for half an hour. >> No health and safety. >> No health. Go down to the bottom trying to find his thumb. >> I find my I found my You had to have your own tools. I found my vice grips. I was thinking, "Yes, I found my vice grips." Never found his thumb. And after that, my fear of heights just was >> I just like and I did I did that all summer >> and it was £75 cash in hand a day. But when you graph for a living, as you know, >> you you you think about going into the office differently. You're grateful that you know you're not out in the hot sun or in the cold. >> Agreed. I mean, it's it's it's a tough gig. I mean obviously you know I was I've recruited into it for many many years and like >> the worst day for me was a Sunday because what I used to do on a Friday was have all my printouts of all my starters that were going to start work on the Monday and the worst thing in the world is checking your starters in on the Monday >> and silence on the phone. No one picks up and I I dreaded so on a Sunday I'd phone up people just to make sure they're going to turn up for work the next day above and beyond but that's what you did. >> You had to. But then if you woke up on the Monday and it was absolutely teeming down, they wouldn't turn up for work either. So what I ended up doing was literally I had a van that was given to me, an old banger, a white a white old van transit. So I used to go around and pick people up for work. Yeah. >> Seriously. Serious. >> Yeah. You know, if you wanted to get, you know, you'd work so hard to get a contract like to get 10 laborers or chippies or whatever on onto a contract and like the worst thing in the world, >> tell them what a chippy is. They won't know. >> Carpenter. Yeah. Um, >> sparky electrician. >> Yeah, exactly. All that all that slang. Um, but like >> it's just about going above and beyond. So the question you gave me earlier was like the transition from construction to education. So I did construction for a per a long period of time and it was about 2011 where my son was about two, my daughter was about nine and I thought construction's having a really hard time here, you know. Um, and Hayes had launched this education piece. So I, my boss had left that I worked with in construction property and gone over to education to be a director. And he sort of beckoned me over and said, "Look, I've got this great opportunity to sell websites to schools." It was called PRP, um, permanent recruitment process, which essentially is going into schools, selling them a website, which is going to help do all their advertising, drive the adverts into us. We do all the screening and then you do additional stuff for the school like sports days, coaching days, helping them to prepare for interviews. And you know what? At the time I thought, this sounds a bit me. I'd love that. Love to help people out. Um, so I did it and we did it. Um, I did it with a colleague called Rob Sheepard who was who was great, really good buddy. Um, I'm not in contact with him now, but he was a really, really good guy. Um, and we split the South Coast into regions, and it was so easy, mate. Honestly, I I probably worked at about I shouldn't be saying this now, but like probably about 50%. Yeah. >> Just to get things over the line, get the renewals done. Um, but it got to a point after a year where I got approached by a rectore company, a recruitment to recruitment that I'd previously used and they said, "Look, we got this opportunity in London." And I was like, "Oh, wow. What is it?" Um, it's with a company called Investigo. And that's where my my strategy life began. That's where I met James, the owner of Venari Partners. And you know I went up there for an interview with the then founder Scott Beexon and what should have been probably a 45minute conversation turned into probably about 4hour conversation. What then turned into that conversation was we went out for beers. I got a contract the next day. I signed and I joined about two months later. Right. >> And then I did eight years with him. Um and then you know I loved it. Company changed. Went through a management buyout. He left. Um the culture changed a little bit. still a lot of good people still left there. Um and then I shifted over to Venari where I've been now for eight years. So I'm I'm really wherever I go I seem to spend like at least eight years. So this is my last gig essentially. >> Yeah. Well, you've always been loyal. You're very solid, right? Well, things change. You you didn't change. They the company got sold and management buyout. Talk to me about, you know, we've often talked, you know, uh about the trials and tribulations that we're going through. What are some of the things that you think of when you think of what it takes to be a successful recruiter? That's a million-dollar question, right? Christ, what what does it take to be a successful recruiter? >> What are your observations? I mean, >> because you've you're great one and you've worked with some great ones. >> Yeah, I have. You know, and I think, you know, you're a byproduct of your environment. Um, and you got to find the right environment to learn from. I think first of all, >> interesting. >> Um, I don't know your take on that, but like I think what makes a good recruiter is like it's just it just finding something you actually give a give a damn about. Yeah. You know, if you wake up every day and you're not inspired by what you're doing, you won't do well in it because people will read through through your words. You won't have the same drive or enthusiasm to sell the product as you would do if you had something that you were interested in. Um, I think it's then about, you know, finding succession planning. >> You know, there are lots of people in the world like you that want to always do more, always do more, and that's absolutely fine. >> Is that what you think of me? >> Yeah. Yeah. you've always betted yourself, right? You know, you had you've gone from rags to riches essentially. Sorry to be crude, but you have. And testament to you, but you've stayed you've stayed humbleized. >> Um, but I think the key thing is finding an environment where, like I said earlier, you can look at people and be inspired and learn and have fun continuously. And if that goes, then you need to go with it essentially. And but it's also, you know, being brave, >> you know, it's like >> it's so it's so important, right? Having that. >> It's so important. It's like, you know, it's showing up, you know, it's dressing up, showing up, and acting up, you know, and making sure that, you know, >> you're being real because as soon as you stop being real, >> Yeah. >> people will know it. You know, you've got to be authentic. Find something that makes you different in what you do. You know, why is someone going to remember Paul Quinn as opposed to >> X? Yeah. You know, when you go into a meeting, yeah, you know, you're selling the same product. Okay, that's great. How do you sell it? You know, are you relating to the client more? Do you know more about, you know, their family, their kids, their holidays, their hobbies? You know, it's remembering stuff. And I think recruitment is a lot really around me memory. You know, it's a jigsaw puzzle. You know, if a client phones you up and say, "Look, Paul, you know, we're going for a re restructure reorg massive transformation. We're looking for someone that's got that experience but has also got that that hunter mentality." You can't read that on a CV. No. You know, you can't buy 20 to 25 years of experience of understanding people. Yeah. And I think that's fundamentally probably the one thing I'd say to people if they're going to go into recruitment, don't do it for the quick buck. No way. >> You know, you know, be in it for the long haul. Be real, work hard, listen, um, and be able to adapt to change. >> Yeah. I love that, mate. You know, one of the things I've noticed is, you know, I've I've always asked you, "How are you guys doing things differently? What's your take on this?" >> And you'll often share something with I go, "That's interesting. I haven't done that before." >> And I I find that most people don't do that. They're not introspective. You know, it's like I'll always ask you, "Well, how did you do that?" And you'll explain and you'll break it down and you've introduced me to different people and you said, "Have you considered this?" And I'll always the thing is if you're not humble and and introspective, I just don't think you can improve. >> Agreed. >> You know what I mean? Because you you work with some amazing people. You're in a different industry from me, but I know for a fact, you know, we're we're going to have dinner and we're going to have a chat. I'll I'll take away so many nuggets and write them down. And I will write them down, you know, because my memory is not what it was. But I don't understand how a lot of people don't do that. I think it's crazy, you know, because um I mean I'm quite gifted in the sense that not me personally, but I'm lucky in my my environment because >> I've got some formidable people within my business. Amazing. >> You know, like James Parker, you know, who I've mentioned earlier who set the company up. >> He's probably one of the best sales people I've ever worked with. >> Amazing. >> Genuinely. >> What makes him so great? What observations of him? >> He's just very very focused. you know, he will always, like you said, question, you know, question the market, question people, be inquisitive, you know, get out in the thick of things. You know, he's he's not afraid of jumping on a plane and going all over the world. And I call him Phyious fault because he's never here. He's always on holiday. No, he's not on holiday gen. >> But I remember you told me during co when aviation the game changed, drives impacted and he adapted, >> mate. He adapted to it. But that's the thing. I've been talking about adaption, you know, being versatile. He's the one that's always banging the drum. Like for instance, the market over the last 12 24 months has been tough, really tough, you know, and doing what you did 12 months ago continuously, it will not pay dividend. So, you know, he he mentioned the other day in the sales call saying, look, you know, guys, you know, what functions in businesses are adapting to this change. Clearly, you know, I don't want to give too much away because people will use this to advantage, but like it's certain areas of companies and that's not just one sector. It's all sectors that will adapt to those changes and finding specialized functions that are going to help get out of those [ __ ] times. >> It's it's huge. I don't even get it, you know, like I I've learned so many things like um you know, when I started working with Kush, who you know, >> um the I asked him a lot of questions and he said, "I've not done this, but I've observed this." And I thought actually what I need to do differently in all my interviews, not just candidates, clients, but also people I come into contact with in business, it's just not what they've done. What have they observed? Or you know, like a lot of people will talk about things that they've successfully done. I'll say, "Well, when you involved in that M&A deal, yeah, but we didn't win the deal, but what did you learn from that eight months you worked on? You didn't take from it." Yeah. What would you do? What would you have done differently? You know, when the next one comes out, how would you approach it? Yeah, 100%. And that's the same although it's a different function you know you could apply that to whether it be revenue management or strategy or transformation or whatever it may be it's just making sure that you are keeping up with the market. What when you qualify candidates are there any little golden nuggets that you can share with with up and cominging recruiters that you do to qualify and distinguish if someone's good at stuff and and B when you're talking to clients like what are you kind of sharing that you feel is a hallmark reflection of your approach to the game? Um, good question. I mean, it really depends on the level of the candidate because obviously junior candidates will have probably less of an insight and, you know, uh, be unable to articulate as well as others that have been through the journey. But I think the basics are, you know, you know, being able to tell your story. You know, there's so many people with probably let's, let's take a candidate with five years experience, right? that's >> come from Oxford or Cambridge that's working in consultancy on paper they look identical >> you know on projects they might look identical but it's like for me it's like okay well how do you articulate your story what is your general motivation you know again it goes back to would I have a beer with you and want to hear your story you know and if I put you in front of my clients are you going to do enough due diligence around the brand and have insights about the business and be really compelled in wanting to join that business yeah >> that's what I look for it's nothing over complicated. Yeah. >> It's just making sure that you know your space well enough to be able to know when someone's flagging you. >> Yeah. Don't you find that though like um I just feel like a lot of a lot of the cans I speak to, they lack energy and conviction. >> 100%. But I think a lot of it is down to the fact that you know there's a lot of lost souls out there as I call them that have been beaten down by organizations restructuring transformations poor leadership could be anything right. Yeah. And like for those, you know, there's a stable for everyone as we call it, right? Yeah. And like some of those people that have are those loss souls are could be good candidates. Yeah. >> You know, and you know, it's called ghosting. You know, they'll call a lot of recruiters and you know, you know what it's like dayto-day. You forget to call people or whatever. You know, it's really important to try and make the time to talk to as many people as possible. You know, don't put off some conversations because ultimately a lot of those conversations will lead on to be decision makers. Yeah. >> And people don't forget, right? They remember the bad things, not necessarily the good things. >> So, it's really bloody key to make sure that you make the effort with these people. >> You know, it's interesting. So, if we do a search and let's just say there are three candidates shortlisted that go through the beauty parade of six or seven interviews and they go with one person right at the end. Um, most of the time the client will never tell me in depth why. >> The other two >> the other two. >> But what you do that's the other that's the other thing. those other two people that you don't place and the nature of the beast is is quite transactional. You place a candidate, you move on to the next opportunity, but the two others that got to the final stage are good candidates. So don't lose lose sight of those. >> So So I'll share with you what I do. >> I firstly I'll call them and I'll have a proper chat, maybe meet them for a coffee or a beer and then I always cuz the thing is they will only remember it's a no and you're the messenger. >> Yeah. And I'll try and give them some real color, but I actually write them a letter and, you know, I'll send it in the form of an email, but I'll I'll typically post it to them. >> Oh, wow. >> So, I have a hard copy and on on maybe 50% of the time, I will show it to the CEO and the head of HR because I know they won't be allowed to send something. >> Um, but I always say, look, I represent you guys as a corporation, and I think the reality is when someone has a negative feedback or if it's a no, >> that's when they can speak negatively. Absolutely. But if we let them know, look, it's no, no, not now, but you were fantastic. This is ultimately what it was. And you you try and give as much color, nothing overly sensitive, >> but they take that away with them and they realize, look, you've put the time in, you've written a letter, and you know, I just think it's just a very small but powerful thing. >> 100%. I mean, it's a three-way process, right? You've got we're we're obviously the instigators of orchestrating the the process. >> Yeah. >> The client is the one with the need and the candidate is the one that fills the gap, right? So I think you know you are 100% right you know you want candidates to walk out with a really good feeling of the brand whether they're successful or not because ultimately you know their their um their feeling of the business if it's not successful is pertinent for the market because you know Chinese whispers you know >> one negative thing will then echo into two three four five six seven negative things and before you know it the brand's struggling to recruit because that one person has dominoed into 15 20 people. >> But you know what? None of the clients I work with primarily think about that. I've got one client, his name is Dimmitri, and I remember the first search I did with him. He said, "Paul, is it okay? Um, I'd like to you you deliver the news, but I'd like to meet the the number two, number three candidate for a coffee and let them know because they're great great candidates." And I said, "I love that. Absolutely." And um, you know, like that it's it's a it's a most people won't do because it takes time. And the other thing I learned in Singapore, it took me seven years to learn this. It's a bit different now, but yes. Yes. Yes. Is actually no. Right. So I always trying to bring the nose forward. Yeah. Right. Because it's okay if it's a no. Let's move on. Let's not waste each other's time. I'll share with you some other things I do. So when I'm, you know, quite often I move teams or even I move an individual, they'll have a non-solicitation clause of clients, employees. So I look at their contract to make sure I understand it. Um if we can reduce it. Sometimes I've taken them to my lawyers, but I'll always draft their resignation letter to make sure they get out cleanly. And I give them a list of things they should and should not do so they don't breach any laws, they don't get into trouble. And a lot of the I've told some of my clients, I said, "You're overthinking this." I said, "Let me tell you, the one time that that guy gets sued, you're going to spend all this time and money and then he's going to end up leaving the bank. His career is screwed. Why? Why do that? Let's just be meticulous." Yeah. And um and then one CEO said to me, "You worry too much." I said, "No one's ever accused me of that before. Just just be careful." >> But that's the thing. You need to almost be one step ahead the whole time because >> you people are unpredictable. >> Yeah. >> So you've almost trying to foresee what they're going to do two, three, four, five steps down the line, you know. And the key thing is when you put a candidate into a process, we will know it's not like every step of that process, you need to be checking in with them. Never let a process go through where you just initiate it and you wait. You just let let it run its course because anything can happen in that process >> 100%. >> You know, >> and uh I mean the great thing is today just before we started this you heard me on the phone to a client and closing and the thing is >> why I was so comfortable you've been there. It was it was brief but >> I know you know cuz you've been there, you've done it. You know exactly how it rolls. It's uh and I've see other people they get very nervous like oh you know like um and I had one client again a CEO and I was walking through a hotel goes how how's it going with that deal and I said well actually I meant to call her in 5 minutes time I said do you want to listen in and he goes yeah I said we'll see if I'm any good but if I'm good and we get the deal done will you retain me goes on then let's have a listen you >> yeah I just thought but I just thought this this is real that he's seeing what is said and quite often I I will arrange for the client and candidate to quite often at my office >> and what I say to the candidates that may not know me so well or they won't know. Are you telling me this but telling them that >> and I'll sit them down and I'll put it all together and it's very clear what I've said to each part party. It's the same. >> It's funny you should say that because like some of the best processes we've run um is where we we've actually centralized the whole recruiting process. So like you, we've got a nice office um and I work with a particular brand um that was struggling from a logistical perspective to hire good talent. So what I agreed to them was like they utilize our offices and we did a complete assessment day where all the candidates came in and we did like backto-back meetings. So they'd go in like meet four different people in the same day in my offices. >> So you get complete control what's going on. You can manage the process >> face value of exactly how the candidates thinking, how the client's thinking. And then what we did was it was wrapped up within 48 hours of hiring like we I think we hired for the company about 20 different people all within one function over a course of six months >> and they loved us for it because >> they got control the candidates had a great experience and it's a win-win right so I think you know fundamentally when you do a recruitment process if you can keep as close to all components as possible there's less chance of things breaking down >> stay close to it >> 100% >> always I'm um I the other thing is is uh your your energy, you know, like I know we're the best of mates, but your energy is always high. And I was going to say, how do you keep because the the truth is we have to have quiet times there. We talked about Yeah. Well, sometimes No, but like you were saying like like if you're sat on your own, you're doing a solo trip or a business trip. >> Yeah. >> You you spend an evening on your own and as you get older, that's important because I think if you don't have that time to sit back and reflect >> Yeah. and then heal. And and talking about this, would you say you're an introvert or an extrovert? >> Um, I'm more introverted, believe it or not, than I extrovert. 100%. >> Same as me, but no one would guess that about us. >> They wouldn't. But what you'll find typically with a lot of >> aesthetically confident people is that inside they are quite fragile. Um, and it's just bravado. It's a smoke screen that they they utilize to get out to people that, oh, he's so confident, you know, he's doing so well for himself. People love him. >> Yeah. But ultimately, some of those people are actually probably the the most unhappiest of people. I'm not saying I am, but at the same time, you know, it's reading the room. It's that EQ piece again, but like I I am very high energy at work. You know, what I tend to do is if I've got [ __ ] going on at home, I just park it. Yeah. >> You know, why bring it in and, you know, downplay, you know, the office or make people negative? Negative breeds negativity. And in a sales environment or any environment for that matter, you want people to want to come into the office. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want, oh god, is he in the game today? Oh, he's so miserable. But you know what I mean, though, right? You know, and like, yeah, I am that person in the office. And I think hopefully, you know, people would say the same thing, but I like a buzz. You know, I still to this day, wholeheartedly get the same buzz out of making a placement as I did 25 years ago. >> I love it. >> Um, and as soon as that changes, I've always said this, then my day is done. >> It really >> Yeah. I you know for me it's almost it got to the point I had to recalibrate this about two and a half years ago where deals crossing the line it was almost like it's a sense of relief but the reality is I don't get and I've learned this as a manager cuz I would never really celebrate wins because I thought well it's not done until they've signed. It's not done until they've resigned. It's not done until they're on gardening leave. It's not done until they've joined. It's not done until the guarantee period's over and then it's not done until we get paid. And you and I know we're debt collectors half the time. We're we're having to follow and get paid. So many of the banks I work with always say, you know, if I had a mortgage with you guys and I paid a day late, you'd defunct me, right? You take the house. That's right. >> Do you know what I mean? And that's but that's really frustrating. And as a business owner, that's one of the things I've really had to struggle with. So people be be surprised by this. I don't pay myself a salary. I pay myself once a year >> at the end of it. And I've seen a lot of small companies go bust because they've overextended themselves. they've only got enough money in the bank for three or six months and they've had to lay people off. Yeah. >> And I never wanted to be under that pressure. And I remember telling my mom years ago when she was alive and she thought that was bananas. I said, "No, it worked." >> Paying once a year. >> Yeah. She just said, "Well, how are you managing? How you doing things?" And you know, you went on that nice holiday. And I said, "I've never spent money that I don't have. I've always been frugal. I enjoy myself. Um but but I'm less interested in material things than experiences." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? Um that's always me >> and that's and that's important I think you know also everyone's at different stages of life like you've got kids that are growing out right I have as well and like you can't put a price tag on spending time with your family you can't go back you know and I think you probably do the right thing because you know you've got involved so much with your children through sport and stuff yeah >> you know and you can see that it's testament you know they they adore you right and they see you as a >> some of the time but you know but you know but I was saying to my son right I said I want to have this relationship with you I said a lot of father and sons the relationships are like this. Most sons idolize their dads when they grow up and then they reach teenagers syndrome as they call it. >> Exactly. But then what happens in teenage years or early 20s the sons demonize their dads and typically when they die they humanize them. >> Yeah. >> And I said I don't want to wait for me to die before you humanize me. So let's skip number two. We kind of did but there was a period where he didn't like me for a little bit. Very short period. Um, but we keep talking and I can tell you to this day, every day, apart from on the phone, I will write to my kids, I love you. >> Nice. >> Do you know what I mean? Cuz like our mom, our dads are old school. >> They never did that. That's that I mean just on that and it's going to get s very family orientated. But I I totally agree with you. I was brought up in a very draconian manner. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> emotions is a weakness. I was I was that was instilled from an earlier point. If you're going to get upset, you go into another room. you never show it. >> And like as you grow up and you have your own kids that that changes it does you know me personally I think showing emotion is a massive strength huge strength you know I think you know we could talk about mental health and that's another topic but like I I personally with both my kids I've actively encouraged them to show their emotions like you you know I always say to my son on a text message or I love you you know always want to congratulate him on stuff he's done because back in the day if I wasn't number one it wasn't ever good enough. Yeah. >> You know, and you and you live with that and it sort of eats away like a cancer. And I think, you know, the generations today are more softer. You know, gone of the days of draconian parenting, you know, I think where we are now, both you and I. >> Yeah. >> We're paying It's testament to the kids, right? You know, they love spending time with us. Yeah. >> You know, wholeheartedly, I think they probably say, "Oh, my dad's great. My mom's great. You know, I love coming home. It's >> it's my safe space." And that's what you want. >> Yeah. you know, like I was saying to you because you met you met uh the two older kids just now and um what I've tried to do since the podcast is I've decided, you know what, I'm going to bring some people to the house, not just podcast guests, cuz they it's normally on a Saturday, so they won't always meet them because the kids are doing sports. But I just said, look, you guys, you're getting the opportunity to meet some very senior people want to come there, shake their hand, say hi. And one guy, a candidate that I started partnering with and working with and I met him in a coffee shop. He's a 6'3 big Indian guy used used to play. Gosh, >> you must have struggled. >> I was like that. Fortunately, we was sat down. But he he was quite dismissive cuz I was a recruiter, right? And I I got into 20 minutes and >> that's quite common place though. >> It was so common. But this was like it was a bit full on and and I kind of just said, "Listen, let's wrap up." I said, "I want you to come around to my house for a cigar tonight or tomorrow." And um I'm not saying taking no for an answer. We need to break bread. We need to get to know each other and bring a couple of decent cigars, but I've got some. So he turns up and um we sit down and he's having a chat. And because recruiters get a bad rap and quite often for good reason. Yeah. >> Um but so do bankers, so lawyers. And then my daughter Talia, who was 16 at the time, she came down, she just finished school. She introduced herself and she stayed and she taught for about 10 minutes. And he's got a son and a daughter. And then she left and he goes, "Paul, all I need to know about you is what I've just observed with you and your daughter." And I said, "Thank you. It means a lot." But but the you know the reality is the kids, you know, we didn't have grow up with this. Like I don't know if you remember, you probably do because you got a great memory. But how I fell into recruitment was at 17 my mom came upstairs. I was doing my coursework. You know, I was always working hard. You know that. Um and she said, this was before I went to uni. She said, "Darling, I think you might have to drop out of college. we need you to start work on Monday and you it's got to be a job paying weekly >> and I and I said how bad is it and she said because my dad had a stroke wasn't working for years and she goes we might not be able to make the mortgage so then we're in trouble and my mom were you know she worked for London Bar of Harrow >> really educate your mom >> yeah two masters very bright and brilliant but but didn't earn loads of money and because dad had stopped working and he was an old school build like before my mom met him he didn't have a bank account he put his money under is, you know, under my dad, >> you know what I mean? Old school in socks underneath the bed. And then um and then I went to the this is how I fell into recruitment. I don't even remember this. >> So I went to the local high street agency >> something like South Tube Station at 6:30 Monday morning. I said, "Do you have any jobs going that start today but pay weekly?" And they and they said, "We've got a job as a toilet cleaner." >> And I said, "Yes, please. I'll take it." >> And they started laughing. They go I said, "Why are you laughing?" And I said, "Well, you said please." No one says please to being a toilet cleaner. I said, "Look, it's noble work. As long as I get paid, it's 280 an hour." And I worked for 3 months throughout college. Uh first at Hammersmith Hospital, then King Edward the 7th Hospital, which was the Queen's Hospital. How I fell into recruitment was um I had to hand in my time sheet. >> Yeah. >> In the old days, you >> three-piece time sheet, the carbon copies, >> you know exactly what it was. So I go in to Baker Street Tube Station and it was a sorry Baker Street uh the Baker Street office and the phones are ringing and I thought, you know, no one's answering the phone. There's only one guy working in the office. Good morning, HMAS services. How can I help you? And Richard Gordon, the uh the recruitment consultant there goes, "What the [ __ ] are you doing?" "What the hell are you doing?" I go, "Does it look like I'm [ __ ] answering the telephone, you idiot." >> That was it. >> That was it. And then he goes, "Um, you speak English?" I said, "Yeah, probably better than you do." And because all the toilet cleaners to be fair, they were foreign refugees. So he said, "What's your story?" And I told him, he goes, "You are you going to college?" I said, "Yeah." And then he said, "Um, >> tell it was because you want to help your parents." >> Yeah. I told him the whole story. And then he said, "Do you want to come and do recruitment?" I said, "What's recruitment?" And he told me, I said, "If it gets me out of the latrine, 100%." And then that's So do you remember then I got that gig, Institute of Electrical Engineers? Because we were at Engineering University. Yeah. And there was one guy, I can't remember his name, always wore a kilt. And he was going to those events. And I said, "What you going to?" And he told me, and I said, "Okay." And I wanted to set up my own desk. So they wouldn't give me a desk cuz I was 18. You know nothing about recruitment. You're just filling placements. And I said, "Mate, I can do anything. You know, I'm the I'm the best salesperson you've never hired in a sales capacity." So I called the general manager that was head of catering. I didn't know what that was. I said, "Hi, you know, this is Paul calling from HS services. is I'm in charge of Southeast England. And I said, >> you had no client base at this point? No one. >> I had nothing. I didn't even I didn't even have that job. And then she goes, I said, how many agencies are you working with? She said, a dozen. I said, do you know what commission percentage they're charging you visav what they're paying? No. I said, well, I'll give you absolute transparency. I can come and meet you today. I can do all of your work. I can take it all on. What are your payment terms? She said, 30 days. I said, I can give you 60 days. Now, I didn't know that, by the way. And that's how I got the gig. really >> that's how I got the gig. That's I mean that's a great story >> because you know the thing the funny thing is >> I mean times times have changed though >> times have changed right and but you know you know when I when I look back at it it was even even when um I moved to Singapore with Robson Smart I was asked to work on the legal desk I knew nothing about law right do you remember and the I I called a candidate and I said um do you have any like gettogethers like you know a legal fraternity and he said we've got an in-house I didn't even know the difference between in-house and law firms we have an in-house get together and Actually, it's coming up this Thursday or whatever day it was. And I I turned up and it was in Boat Key. >> Oh, yeah. Upstairs where the strip with the path we used to go to. >> Yeah, exactly. U plaza. >> Yeah. So, just further down from there. Went upstairs. Great memory. And um I started out handed out my name card. And the guy there that was running it was the general counsel for FedEx. And he said, "Listen, Paul, I love your your provado. I love your your spunk and stuff, but you need to get the hell out of here." I said, "Why?" He goes, "You're not a lawyer. And I said, "I'll tell you what. Um, let let me finish my pint. Um, and uh, if you give me the name list, I'll bugger off." And he goes, "That'll get rid of you." He goes, "Yeah." So, he gave me the name list down my pine. I said, "I'll drop you an email tomorrow." So, I did. And then he wrote to me and um he he said, "What's your telephone number?" And I I sent it to him. And then he called me and he goes, "I've got a friend who's the general counsel at uh, United Parcel Services. They're looking for a tax lawyer stroke tax accountant. give him a call. >> I can do that. >> And that was and that was it. And then we just rolled, right? And the thing about you and me, we would turn a hand to anything. >> Yeah. You had to. >> You had to. Right. And it was just hustle. It was grind. And it was just graft. >> Absolutely love it, mate. I just love uh when I look back at, you know, where we've come from and what we've done. How do you feel looking back now, you know, you're turning the big 5 September? Um, >> I mean, you don't I don't think anyone chooses to go into recruitment if they're brutally honest with themselves. >> You fall into it. >> You just fall into it. But like >> you and I have done it now for like 30 odd years now, give or take. >> And like, >> could I see myself doing anything else? Don't really know. You know, would I want to do anything else? No, I don't think so. Yeah. >> You know, it goes back to what I said earlier. I genuinely do love the thrill of the chase. You know, I get that like that that buzz. >> Yeah. >> And I think, you know, as long as the light is still on, just run with it. >> Let me ask you, why do you think maybe 90% of our contemporaries that were in recruitment at the beginning when we were in it, dropped out of the race? >> Um, I think probably a lot of them went in for the wrong reason because back in the day, everyone went in because they thought, I'm going to become a multi-millionaire. It's transactional. I'm going to make some quick bucks. And then, you know, and you do, you can make it's probably the industry where you can make some very good money very fast the fastest possible way, right? You know, as opposed to going through the legal route, the consultancy route is gradual progression. >> But like I think a lot of people that that fell are probably ones that, you know, were those types of people that, you know, lost their soul when times got tough, weren't prepared to roll their sleeves up and stick with it, >> deal with it. >> Um, and they're the ones really, I think. Did you think I was always going to go into business for myself? What was your%? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to blow smoke up your own backside here, but like why not, mate? You you do that enough yourself. Um, >> but like >> you've you out of all my friends and all the people I've ever worked with have always had that >> that hunter mentality. you've always wanted to do better, you know, whereas, you know, everyone >> needs to feel comfortable in their own skin and understand me, I'm a happy to be a number two. I'm never going to be a business leader. That's not my skill set. I don't aspire to be that and I know I probably wouldn't be very good at it. Whereas you from the get-go whenever I met you, you've always had that look of, you know, tenacity, wanting to do better, wanting to improve yourself, you know, and that's great and that's what you need do need to have in innately to be a business leader. >> Um, so I think probably that's the reason why I saw you always doing well, >> you know. Thank you. You know, you know why I ask? It was interesting cuz well you you've known me from the getgo and like I think when I look back at the group of friends that we had even at Union before >> I I kind of could tell early on who was going to go where and how it didn't really matter but I don't know I look back I think I had a pretty good sense it's not different and I realized that that innate knowledge of people has carried through into my job and my career and the one thing like with that I' I'm proud of that I've I've adapted so you know I set up the the whole career coaching business >> which which in itself is very unusual for a recruiter to to traverse into that and then the podcast and like the thing is with the podcast I love is is like you and I never got to you know I I I think if we knew more back then I don't know how far we would have gone but in our sports our sporting careers it would have it could have been very different >> right um so so now I realize well now I get a different chance to to now operate and interview some worldclass people >> in different pockets and there's so many sports people that I want to sit down with like I reached out to Steve Redgrave twice. He hasn't got mad to me and um but like for example I would imagine if I had Steve Regrave on the channel. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. So funny enough he wrote something they've he's released with a group of people an app fitness app and I wrote back to him and there was a little clip and I just said um are we going to see Pinson chucking up again? You know cuz do you remember when they were training for the uh for the Olympics of all these videos of them training and chucking up at the end of a workout and if you're a serious athlete you know what that means. Well, funny enough you today Red Grave like as a candidate we got another Olympiad um Kieran West who was five-time gold medalist in the Olympics in rowing >> really. So he he was an ex-conultant, you know, top tier McKenzie profile, worked in v variety of key areas, like a strat director in many brands. And like >> a lot of companies love those types of people because, you know, one, they're super smart, but two, they carry an aura where investors or stakeholders want to meet those types of profile because they're so inspirational. They've achieved the dizzy heights that so that only a very 0.01% would ever achieve, right? Yeah. you know, so getting a podcast with people like that is so insightful. >> Well, the other thing I wanted to say to you, you know, so one of the guys I brought into the coaching business, he's a high school buddy and he won two uh Commonwealth Gold medals in the in as a gymnast >> and um and then >> feet >> and then he worked for C sole for 15 years, 10 years as a performer. >> Wow. >> Um three years as a lead coach and then another two years as the head coach. So he's a ser serious guy, amazing amazing athlete and you're an amazing athlete. And the thing about Andy Cham, you know, Andy Chan is poundfor- pound the strongest guy I've ever met. You know, like I >> not surely I mean pound for pound. You said you were stronger than Tyson, right? >> I am stronger than Tyson, pound for pound, but Andrew is stronger than me. Pound for pound in terms of weights, right? But like I'll give you an example. The only time I've ever lost a bear >> was to Andrew Cham. So I saw him in the gym at university and he had it's a Chinese guy floppy hair >> curtains >> curtains and at the time I was about nine stone. He was about 10 10 and a half stones. So we weren't big guys and he looked like a sprinter and I said you you look like a sprinter. He goes yeah um and I and he was the southwest like he was he was the liver puddling champions. It was he was fast. >> And um and I just said yeah do you fancy doing a workout together? And I'd never grown up with any Chinese guys. I didn't know any other Chinese guy. I'm only half Chinese. And um I said to him, "Oh, I've got that Argos set of weights, you know, the golden ones. Basically, it's plastic wrapped around some concrete." >> And we had the same set. And I said, and it was 72 kg, including the bar. And I said, um, so we'd never work worked out in a proper gym before. He couldn't afford, neither could I. And I said, "Bet you 10 quid, I can bench press 72 kg more times than you." And then he goes, >> "Redg, >> go on then." And uh so I said I'll go first. I thought I would demoralize him. And I got to like 24 25 reps and my nips were hurting afterwards because I'd only I'd followed the the the instruction manual was like do 10 reps and I said go on then. And he did it he got to like 54 reps and then he >> he's built different though. He's just and and then he just got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and um we were we were bench pressing and I said, "Why don't you try >> the the combine, the American, you know, NFL combine." Um and he was he would have been in the top 10 guys. >> Yeah. >> Doing 100 kg. And when he does weights, he does it slowly. Yeah. >> He's not repping out fast. And it was just weird. But anyway, my point is this. What I love about people like you, Andy, Kanekai, is that we were never in competition. You were great at what I did, you did. I was great at what I did. Andy was great. And and the thing is we all wanted each other to do well. >> And and I find that's quite rare. >> It is, to be fair, it is rare. I mean, um there's always there's always going to be some element of jealousy with people, you know, when people are more successful for whatever reason. But you know, I think ultimately take account of your own your own personal um targets and attributes whatever you want to call it. But like I think we were very blessed in the sense that we had so many people around us that were very competitive, good at what they did, different skill sets, but >> just molded together. >> Yeah. >> There was no jealousy or anything like that. And um >> and our friendship group was like United Colors of Beniton. >> 100% it was, you know, walking down the street of Harrow. Christ, they must have thought, Jesus, what's coming in? Um but that that's that's the way it should be. You know, we all learned from one another. Um and we never judged each other. Yeah. >> And we always looked out for each other. And that's that's testament to now. You know, you when you come back to the UK every 2 three years, whatever, you you pick up the phone, you do a WhatsApp group, and lo and behold, >> we're all here. >> 30 40 >> and and and it's like >> mad. >> It's like we we we'd spoken the previous day. I know. >> And that's the way it should be. I'll tell a quick shout out to Tone. Tone the Mus. >> Tone the Mus. >> So Tony um studied law. >> Smart guy. >> Very smart guy. And the thing about Tony was he's he's one of the most honorable people I have ever met. >> Agreed. >> So we go into a bar one day, the hungry horse. >> I know this story. >> And this guy, I called him Fat Dan. This guy Dan I went to high school with um threw Tony's change on the table. And Tony's a very calm, reserved guy. But >> you would not want to fight Tony ever, you know? He was just hard and I I've seen it firsthand. But anyway, so he called the guy back like that and he grabbed his arm and he pulled him towards him. He opened his hand. I said, "I've worked three hours to buy that round. The least you can do is have the common courtesy to put my change back in my hand. Please do so now." >> Yeah. >> And the guy was shivering and quaking and I said, "Yes, mate. You showed him." >> But that's disrespect though. Disrespectful. Why do that in the first place? Just don't get that. Then another story was he told me at Green Hill, we went to college together. He went there the year before me and he said um he was telling me the story he got mugged um by a couple of guys >> who Tony >> Tony at knife point and he gave him the money, >> you know, whatever it was. Probably had about 250 on him or something if I >> you know what I mean? Um and one day we saw one of the guys. He goes, "That's the guy, one of the guys that mugged me." I said, "That's 100% and you know me." I ran over, grabbed him, threw him down, and I put my my foot on his hand like that, and I said, "You owe my mate money." So, he took out the money. He took 20 quid, and I said, "Let's go." And then he go Tony goes, "No." Tony starts taking out the change cuz he took like 8 8 quid 50 off. Turns out Tony had 8 quid 50 or something. And he gives him the money back. He gives him the 1250 back or 1150 back, sorry. And I said, "Tony, what about interest?" He goes, "No, God and Karma will deal with him." But like Tone is like >> I just was blown away, man. >> Tone said to me years ago goes, "What's mine is mine and God help anyone that touches it." >> You said that. >> Yeah. And I'll never forget it. And he's a man of morals. And I can I'm not surprised. I didn't know that that whole story, but like I'm not surprised he did that, >> you know, cuz he can walk away with his head thinking that's a piece of trash. You stole from me. I've got my money back, but I gave you what I I did didn't have, so you can have the shrapnel back. But like, >> what a man. What a man. >> And you know that guy, that guy used to say to him, "Let's um let's get a cab back." And he goes, "No, we'll get a night bus." And I said, "Mate," and then there would be times I remember we were part Royal and he lived in Subbury Hill and I said, "Let's get a cab back." Goes, "No." I said, "Bus?" He goes, "No." I said, "What are you going to do?" He goes, "Let's walk it." I said, "Mate, I ain't Let me tell you." I go, "I live further than you." He goes, "Don't be soft. I'll walk you back to your home, princess." And walk back. And that's exactly what he did. It surprised me. >> And it was like it was like 10 miles to my house, another three miles back to his. And I was like, and he would do it. And I say, "Text me when you get in." You know, like, you know, what a what a machine. >> He is a machine. And he'll never change. >> One of the nicest souls in the world as well. Really nice guy, >> mate. I've loved every every minute of this. Thank you. >> My pleasure, >> mate. Was it How was it? How do you find the experience? >> I was initially daunted because I don't like this sort of thing, but how you know when it's with someone that you you know and love and you it's just easy. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. Yeah, I've really found it nice to talk about like all the stuff that we've been exposed to, the learns, >> you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. Yeah, I've really really appreciate your time. >> I love you, mate. Respect. Love you, too. Cheers, bro.

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