Medicine x Longevity x Reinvention : Dr. Shireen Henry | | Quinntessential Questions #77

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You probably have life insurance. >> Yeah. >> You have medical insurance. Why do you take out accident insurance? You take it out for for the rainy day. Yeah. >> But we know that aging, none of us are beating it. No one's putting the investment into this health. We're very prepared to be reactive when the [ __ ] hits the fan. I don't come from a medical family. Grew up in South Africa during the apartate years. My dad was a professional cricket player. first non-white South African who made it into

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the cricket team >> played internationally. My childhood was a little bit unusual. We spent 6 months of the the year the cricket season in the UK. >> Yeah. >> And then we would be brought back to South Africa and you would have all these restrictions that were imposed. We came back with these full Scottish accents. >> Crazy. And the first school that we went to was a school that was set up for colored children. My dad got the call from the school to say, "Yeah, we we

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don't think this is going to work out." From a a very young age, there was this deep desire and I would say calling. I knew I needed to do something different. So I ended up working at the local police station during high school observing postmortems that were being done. >> Jeez, >> on unnatural deaths. I'm this 16-year-old student. I spent my time in paliotative care and that was driven by working in the TB HIV co-infected space that I was in. The time that I spent there was pretty early in my career

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>> and it fundamentally shifted the way I thought about life. about medicine. I've always wanted to do something that is hugely impactful and meaningful, not just for me, but for whoever's sitting on the other side of me as well. At the moment, I'm I work in a health optimization space at matter. Um, I'm the director of operations and I work as a health coach as well. What you need to do to improve your health, build that capacity so that you're aging better. >> Yeah.

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>> Takes Dr. Shireen Henry, how are you? >> I'm good, thank you. How are you? I'm >> well, listen, a lot better now that you're here. Thank you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Well, you know, uh before we get started, I want to say how we first met. So, um >> crazy story, right? >> Crazy story. So, you when you see the outtakes, you might just say, "Listen, Paul Gotham, I don't want this in the vlog." So, we met at Paul Foster and his

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lovely wife's 9D breath work event, which is the first time you and I had been. >> Yes. >> Just pick up from there. And what's your memory of of that event? >> Oh, wow. Um, so I I will say I went with a friend. Um, >> did you know Paul before? >> I didn't know Paul, but I'd heard about him because one of our co-founders is a good friend of Paul's and my colleague that I went with is a good friend as well. >> Okay. And so she had invited me to this

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90D breath work session. And I will say I was skeptical to say the least. Now I had I mean I'm I'm all for breath work. I believe in it deeply. >> Yeah. >> But I had seen video footage of the way individuals had reacted in these sessions. >> And to be honest, >> you know, my brain was like, "Oh, that's put on." You know, like it's not real. Um, so I went in skeptical, but I was like, "All right, we're going to I'm going to have an open mind. Let's just

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see how this goes." And before we went to this session, um, I had told Ian that I was going, one of our co-founders, and he's big in the breath work space, >> okay? And he said to me, Shireen, and he knows a little bit about my past, and he said, you know, just giving you a heads up that for some people during these sessions, you'll have some you may have some sediment coming up is how he put it, right? >> I love that description. He's very apt. >> And I was like, okay. And I thought,

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well, yeah, that's not really going to happen to me. Because at that point I I thought I'd been in therapy for years, you know, I've gone through trauma counseling. I've like dealt with my [ __ ] you know? I kind of I'm going to be okay. Um but I'm there to experience it. >> And I I I can't It's hard to describe to people who haven't been through it. >> Yeah. >> Because I think when you go through it >> Yeah. Then it's like a aha moment at the

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end. >> Well, well, I I'll share this with you. I've not seen the footage yet. Galam is pulling it together. So, the end he says you you should scream. >> Yes. >> Right. And there were different levels of screaming, but there were like 15 or 18 of us there. But unequivocally, you were the loudest. Yours was the most guttal. And it was from what you said it was I was I was sh you know and I was I was thanking my kids and my wife or whatever but yours was you know it was

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>> it was from a very deep place in your heart. It was gut-wrenching. >> So when you watch that back you you might say Paul I don't know if I want you to release that. >> But you know like in the moment >> you're so removed from everything around you right? And so it felt like I was releasing the scream. >> Yeah. >> But that only I was hearing it and it felt so soft. >> Yeah. >> In my in my head >> because we're wearing earphones and

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there's music playing. It's very powerful and we're in IMAR. So you actually you're gone, >> right? And for a long period of time and with the breath work which I I was really struggling with the breathing. Yeah. >> I don't think I got it right because he kept coming back to it. So I got the stomach right but not the chest right. And at some point I'm thinking, what am I doing? Like, but I found it very spiritual. >> Yeah. >> I felt very close to my mom and dad,

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which was really weird, right? And I was thinking about them cuz you're listening to this man talking and it's taking you into different places. I can't advocate it, you know, enough. I'd love to bring my wife, but I think I told you and I told Paul, I'm not going to go when my wife is there. He goes, why? I said she's got Well, I didn't say sediment. I said she got a lot of residual hate towards me over 23 years. I'm not sure how this is going to play out. >> She's going to wake up. I'm going to get

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you, bastard, and then you're in trouble. Now, look, before we turn back the pages of time, can you give a quick intro as to who you are, and then we're going to delve into your story. >> All right. So, I'm Shireen Henry. Um, a South African trained medical doctor. Um, did my medical degree in South Africa. Um, I I guess I could I could to a certain extent be regarded as like a third culture kid. My parents are South African. Mhm. >> Um I came from or I come from a sporting

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family. My dad was a professional cricket player. Grew up in South Africa during the apart 8 years. So what that meant was South Africa was banned from international sport. >> So that is what ended up being the driver for us to my dad was um recruited I would say um to the UK to play cricket. Um, that's where so I ended up being born in Scotland. >> Oh, were you in? I didn't know that. In Scotland. Where in Scotland? >> So, in Glasgow. >> Wow. You got such a rich history.

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>> Yeah. So, that's what took us out of South Africa. M >> um and my childhood I would say was a little bit unusual in the sense that we spent six months of the the year the cricket season in the UK >> and the other six months we would be back in South Africa and during the apart 8 years that came with some challenges because you didn't have that blatant racism >> in the UK at the time. Yeah. And then we would be brought back to South Africa and you would have all these

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restrictions that were imposed and we couldn't as you know at a young age you can't really you don't make sense doesn't make sense to you because you're like well >> in the UK we're living in this you know multicultural neighborhood. We were probably a handful of Indian and mixed race families. Yeah. >> The majority of our neighbors were Caucasian. >> Yeah. And then we're back in South Africa and we're living in a neighborhood that's only meant for

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colored people and that's what I'm defined or classified as. >> Well, let's give a shout out to your dad because you know he wasn't just a regular cricketer. He was the first black South African cricket player. >> Yeah. >> Which is amazing, right? So after the apartate bans were lifted, South Africa was in um was allowed to play international sport again and then he was the first non-white South African who made it into um the cricket team >> played internationally but he was I

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think he made his debut at the age of 40. So he was quite seasoned by that time. >> That's amazing. >> Um yeah and then carried on for a couple of years. So he lives and breathes cricket. We grew up with sport surrounding. >> It's in your DNA. >> Yeah. Everything in the household. >> And what was what happened with your mom? Because it was your trailing spouse. >> She was. Yeah. >> So they got married. My dad was 29, my mom was 19. >> Okay.

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>> And after the marriage, you know, he whisked her off to the UK. And so that's what she did. >> So after Glasgow, where where did you go after that? So we well my my my parents were sort of in England depending on the club that my dad was playing with um or working with at the time um but mainly Glasgow, Edinburgh as well. >> Okay. >> Um and then from there when in 1994 9294 >> um he made the decision to go back to South Africa. >> Okay. because he wanted to give back to

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the underprivileged communities and kind of grow cricket from the grassroot roots level up. >> So noble. >> Um my mom didn't like it at the time, you know. She >> she wanted to stay put. >> Yeah. She wanted to stay put, but he was like, "No, I I have to do this." And so that's what ended up bringing the family back back to >> How old were you? >> Uh 9 10 at the time. >> Do you remember the the Scotland years? >> We do. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely.

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>> You had a great time. >> Great time. Um just a whole different living experience. >> Yeah. As a kid you you just adapt, right? You don't necessarily know the difference and how unusual it is cuz 6 months and 6 months got to be tough. >> It is >> like living two different lives almost. >> It is. It is. And then with that level of change that you're experiencing when you come back and then going again um was certainly things that my sister and I had to get

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used to because we came back um and in the colored community where we stayed in Stalenbos the majority my dad is African speaking my mom is English but the majority of the colored population was African speaking >> and we didn't speak Africans we came back with these full Scottish accent sense >> crazy. >> And the first school that we went to was a school that was set up for colored children >> and they only spoke Africans. And we went, my sister and I went there for I

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think it was like a week and then we my dad got the call from the school to say, "Yeah, we we don't think this is going to work out. You're going to have to, you know, pull your kids from the school because the teachers don't have any idea what they're saying." >> Jeez. So, what happened? So we ended up being pulled out um for a period of time and then we went back to Scotland and of course we were in school. Um >> so then you stayed in Scotland after that.

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>> No. So what ended up happening was my dad my dad moved the family back. So we completed our primary school years in South Africa >> in Stalenbos went to high school and then from there I went to medical school. Um and then after that >> How's your Scottish accent? I I don't think I have one. >> Can you Can you put one out after after a couple of drinks? Does it come out? >> I don't I don't But but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um >> but you know the Scottish people cuz cuz

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even though I grew up in London, my father was Irish >> and there's a big difference between the English and Irish and and if you go to Scotland, Ireland or Wales, people are just different. >> Yes, there's racism at times. I think that's changing now. But I I'll give an example. I was in Sterling on my own and I went to a bar and just on my own for a drink and I wasn't allowed to buy a drink all night. I'm not joking. I I was there. I was young at the time and I just thought it

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was such an amazing time. So I went back years ago, eight years ago for my friend's 40th birthday and I don't know why my friends in the UK like this. I said, "Who wants to go away for a weekend?" because I was in town and no one wanted to go away or they got kids and I don't know why having kids stops you from doing things. It shouldn't, right? It >> shouldn't. And uh so I said, "Oh, [ __ ] it. I'm I'm going to go to Scotland on my own." >> So I got the train to Edinburgh and then

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I rented a car and I just I went back to Sterling. I I just I did and I went to all the places where they filmed like Harry Potter. >> Nice. >> Glen, is it Glen Finnen and and the bridge where they they filmed uh the train scene and I just absolutely love it there. Right. So my my thing was when I was there, I'm going to have a battered sausage, a tin of iron brew, and then >> Oh, Iron Brew is the best. >> And and just just just enjoy it. And cuz it it was cold. It by the way, it was

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summer, but it was still cold, >> right? Fish and chips, you know, just and I just enjoyed. But I, you know, if you think a little bit about how people are, I just find that the the Scottish people are so friendly. >> 100%. Um, I think that's what drew my parents why they love Scotland so much. >> And we still have a huge like family friend base. My my dad actually is now um the president of Scottish cricket. Um, really? Yeah. So he's um, >> but you still live in South Africa?

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>> Yes. So he goes over for the cricket season now. But he's Yeah. there's just this affinity to the Scottish people that we've we have and I and it comes down to that kindness as well and I think >> coming from the experiences that my dad and my mom went through during the apart 8 years and growing up and the challenges with that and then getting >> into this environment where people are just kind to you and you know there's there's genuine friendships and people

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are willing to help you. Um it definitely you know it hit deep for them. Um >> you know this this is cuz I know zero about cricket. I was at a dinner and there was someone next to me and I was talking to him and I said, "Hey, how you doing?" You know me. I was just talking getting along with him. >> Did I I tend not to ask people what they do for a living, >> right? Because it's almost like that almost feels transactional. >> And at the end of it, someone said to

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me, "You know who that is?" I said, "No." He goes, "That's Brian Lara." And I said, "Who's Brian Lara? And then I looked him up and I said, "Wow." And I and I thought he probably enjoyed that conversation. >> Because you had no idea. >> Yeah. And I and I did ask him a word and it was just a really nice conversation. And I read that I thought, "Wow." But ignorance is bliss sometimes. It >> is. Yeah. Yeah. >> Do you know what I mean? And what was it

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like like what how was Nelson Mandela viewed, right? You know, from from your perspective. >> Yeah. I mean, he's a he's a hero in South Africa, right? I think everything that he stood for, that he believed in, that he fought for, it became an inspiration to >> truly >> to to to many to many people across races. >> Yeah. >> Um, and I think again it comes down to >> that quietness as well. I mean, kindness, should I say, >> but no, but quietness as well.

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>> He had a very soft way of speaking. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> yeah. He was he was a boxer. >> Yes. Yes. >> So, he had that background, right? And um he just he he's got to be one of the most remarkable men that's ever, you know, walked the planet. >> Yeah. >> Truly, truly. >> And I remember when I when I um went to visit Robin Island for the first time. Did you go? >> I did. I did. >> What was it like? >> It was eyeoping, you know, and and you

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walk Yeah. You walk into the cell and you think, "Wow, >> you know, he he spent so many years there and yet he used that time to educate himself." >> Yeah. I mean, that's how he ended up becoming a lawyer, right? >> Well, he's you're what, 27? Gam. >> He was in prison, I think, 26, 27 years. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, um, massive respect for Nelson Mandela. Um, for sure. >> It's so interesting. So, then what took

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you along the journey to becoming a doctor? You know, was it where did it even begin? >> So, I don't come from a medical family at all. actually all my aunts and uncles are in education. Um, and that was also a historical thing because during the apart 8 years there were only certain professions that colored black people could go into generally speaking, right? Most of it was education or you became some sort of tradesman, a plumber, a carpenter. >> Um, you were using your hands in in some

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form. Um, so my my dad always knew that he wanted to to play cricket. um you know to the disappointment of of his parents to some degree, right? Because they were like, well, this isn't a career pay like how how are you going to pay the bills? >> Yeah. >> Um >> but from a a very young age, and I can't pinpoint an exact moment, but there was this deep desire and I would say calling that this was the route that I wanted to be on. How old were you roughly? >> I would say probably from the age of

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five, six. >> Wow. >> Like, >> and carried through. Always something that I I knew I wanted to do. Now, I had an interest as I got older, >> you know. Um, >> this didn't start from playing doctors and nurses with your your male best friend, did it? Cuz cuz cuz I remember one of my my I was five and my friend K goes, "Let's play doctors and nurses." I go, "What is that?" You know what I mean? I thought it was that game, you know, when you pick up

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>> Oh, the the s the surgery. >> Did you ever have that? >> I didn't have that. >> I never had it, but I got it for my kids when they were when cuz we couldn't afford it as a family. But it's such a cool game. >> It is a cool game. It is a cool game. Um, we we definitely played um, you know, the whole I'm going to be the mother and the father and I and I always wanted to play the doctor, you know, in in that scenario. >> Love it. >> Um, >> but it was from a very young age that I

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I knew that this was what I wanted to do. And over time that just sort of got um, it was strengthened through various experiences as well. M >> um and then it got to a point where having I needed to decide, you know, which way to go >> and it was either going to be law >> Mhm. >> or medicine. Um and yeah, I I didn't going through high school, I I wasn't a straight A student. Um I played sport. I was, you know, on on the leadership of the school, prefect, various cultural organizations,

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you know, headed that up. I did debating. >> Um, >> debating is they never had it in my school. I think it's such a great subject to have. >> It is. It is. I think it builds your >> not just your confidence, but your ability to think and argue and and and hear both sides of the story >> um or the argument. and and sometimes you're on you're you know you're given a scenario where you don't actually agree with this but you you've got to find >> the arguments that are going to to

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resonate and make sense and that's logical. I think it's a really great way to teach you public speaking skills and critical logical >> my wife's a debater. She's a lawyer, right? She's she's got a PhD in law. So, I've been debating with her for 23 years. I've yet to win an argument. I'll get there. >> No surprising that there's always hope. There's always hope. >> One day, maybe maybe she'll let me win one. >> Yeah, there's always hope.

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>> So then and then and then So when did you decide what you were going to do at university and where you were going to go? What were your options? So, I applied to three different medical schools. I always knew this was what I wanted to do. >> Okay. >> And um however, I knew that I wasn't a straight A student. >> Um and there were two disadvantages that I was sitting with at the time. One was the color of my skin because being colored and coming from a historical >> so-called disadvantaged

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population. Um, there weren't many medical students of color that were getting into university. The times were changing, but it still was nowhere near the Caucasian student population. Um and that goes down to a stem systemic issue of education, access to resources, things like that. And the other was not being a full straight A student. So I knew I needed to do something different so that if that time came where I needed to motivate why I belonged in medical school, I had something that I could

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show beyond just being on the different societies and being a prefect, etc., you know, captain of the hockey team. So, I ended up finding myself doing um through my mom's friend uh working at the local police station um during high school. Um >> you must have seen you must have seen some stuff. >> Observing postmortems that were being done. >> Jeez. >> On unnatural deaths. >> Wowza. And that was the first time that I had come sort of face to face. Like >> that's heavy.

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>> It is. Yeah. Pretty morbid. Um >> but an amazing experience because it was fascinating >> and it was um you know the professor that was doing the postmortems at the time was a great teacher as well. So, as it was a very surreal moment because I'm this 16-year-old student >> who's now in this very cold clinical room with silver tables and, you know, dead bodies essentially that are being investigated for their unnatural cause of death. >> Yeah. >> And he's explaining the science.

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And in that moment, you know, you think to yourself, wow, >> this is this is what it comes to. Like what is the journey that gets you to this moment? Um, and so yeah, did it did it >> and a lot of people they can't they can't understand it cuz a lot of people, you know, they've only seen a dead body maybe when they go to a funeral and the body's embarmed, right? And I I remember there's there's two scenes that you're talking about now. There's TV movies all

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the time. You see people, you know, in the morttery. >> Yeah. >> But I remember watching my binding memories, Silence of the Lambs, >> and they uh looking at a body, but it's decomposed because it's been in the water for a long time. Yeah. >> So, so you see >> bits of the body, but you know, it probably smells. >> Yeah. >> And these guys that I think they were putting Vicks up their nose. Yeah. And why I remember that was years later I had to fix fix a storage

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pipe with my father and um cuz he built his own well and and uh a storage system at my house in Ireland or their house and I I went and I did it. I put Vicks up my nose. I wore a mask and then I went down there and then he was angry with me cuz I couldn't fix something. I wasn't very strong. I wasn't as strong as he was. So he went down and he didn't do any of that and the smell was so bad. My dad had dentures and he he vomited and his dentures came out and I was thinking yes I got him. Anyway, sorry. So side side

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note but so when so when you were there then then when did you think okay this is really what I'm thinking of doing? >> The science of it all was fascinating for me. >> It grabbed you >> and I I I loved bi biology was my favorite subject in school. >> Yeah. Um, and so that was sort of like the real life version of of it all unfolding as well. Um, and I remember thinking, wow, you know, al although being a forensic pathologist is is a pretty morbid profession, >> but this is how he's giving the dignity

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back to this person that is in front of him right now because he's trying to find out how they died, who caused it, etc. >> Um, >> and so important for the families. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So that became a it inspired me even further because now I was able to you know the science was now even more exciting. Um and then it got to a point where I needed to apply to medical school and um I did got rejected outright. Um and I knew that was the risk because all over the world medical school it's a

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competitive field right and >> at the time it the focus was also very much around your academics. Now things have pivoted to trying to find more well-rounded individuals because you know we realize that it takes more than just you know whether you're scoring A's in all your subjects like what really makes a good doctor what really makes a good health care professional that is able to relate to another human being and be there in their times of distress but have the knowledge and critical thinking skills

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and you know problem solving skills to be able to make a diagn nosis, right? >> Um, but at the time your academics was the the the biggest factor. Um, so I got rejected and that was devastating. Absolutely devastating. Um, I didn't have a plan B. This is all I wanted to do. Um, my mom was working at the university at the time, one of the universities that I applied for at Stalenbos and the conversation then went to, okay, well, what are my options now? And it was discussed, okay, well, you can go

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and do another degree and then you can try and come back. And I was like, no, that's not what I want. >> This is what I want. Um, and she said, "Okay, well, if that's this is really what you want to do, then you're going to have to fight for it, and the only way for you to do that is to appeal the process." >> Wow. >> So, I put in my appeal application. Um, and I was given the opportunity then to go and state my case in front of this panel. >> Really? Wow.

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>> Of me. Um, and again it was, well, if I don't get in, then what? Right? But, but I I I wasn't going to allow myself to think about about that option, not dwell on that >> either. >> And I think this is where growing up in a sporting family sort of like changes your mindset around how you >> approach hardships and failures, right? Like you have to get up and you got to keep going. And if this is what you want, then you've got to be fighting for it, right? >> Yeah.

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>> And so from a young age, those were the discussions, you know, the dinner table discussions were around mindsets. I mean, the first book that my my dad ever gave me and I was going I think I was in the last part of primary school in starting high school. >> What was it? >> Was Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. >> Wow. Yeah. like and so >> well but he was enlightened because you know that's that's something a man of his generation not not many men will be

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reading that >> absolutely so you know he took a deep interest into >> psychology >> psychology training of the mind and and with his own cricket players you know your mindset was key >> it's everything >> it's everything yeah >> um visualization all of those things played a role and so I had that growing up and I knew okay well this is is what I want. So, I'm going to have to give it my all and if it's not meant to be, then it's not meant to be.

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>> Um, so I went appealed the process, appeared in front of this panel, and you have to state your case. You know, I said, "Look, I'm not, you know, you can see my marks. I'm not a full A student." Um, and I had A's and I had B's, you know, but, you know, they're looking for the best academic performers because at the time that is what's going to make you a good doctor. >> Yeah. >> And I said, look, I I have all these other qualities. Um, this is a calling

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for me. It's something that I I'm I'm here to fight for, >> but the only way that I can do that is if I'm given the opportunity. Um, I'm aware of the fact that I'm colored, that there aren't many colored medical students in comparison to the white population. Um but the other parts of my high school, you know, being part of the first hockey team, being the captain, holding all these other winning these debate awards and um other cultural uh activities that I was

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doing, um the postmortem stuff, which is what I wo into my story of like this is what I wanted to do. This is what I I see myself doing. >> And I can see that track record. Yeah. Um, left left the panel interview not knowing how this was going to turn out. >> So, you weren't sure when you left? >> No. Um, they had to deliberate. >> Um, so that week of waiting was agonizing. I bet >> because I had No. And and I think if I remember correctly, we were like a week and a half out of university starting.

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>> Wow. So, it was upon you. >> Yeah. And in South Africa, the the academic years run from January to December. >> Okay. >> So it was literally two weeks out from university starting. Had no backup plan. >> Um >> and yeah, then you just have to have the faith that what you're doing is going to work out for you. And a week later, I got the call to come back down and my mom went with me and you know, the lady gave me the information. We've made a decision.

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Um, we're going to accept your appeal. >> Wow. >> But don't mess this up. >> Yeah. >> Um, and that is something like those words stayed with me. >> Yeah. >> Throughout medical school, like you can't [ __ ] this up, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um, >> so interesting. >> Yeah. Was it tough? 100%. You know, were there ups and downs? For sure. >> But it came down to I'm here. I had to fight for this position. This is what I need to do.

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>> All in. >> Yeah. All in. >> All in. >> Good for you. There's such a strong story there because I think a lot of people give up at the first hurdle. In fact, a lot of people don't even try because they think they're going to fail. >> Yes. >> Do you know what I mean? I love that that grit, that determination. >> And I think it's also >> how did you react afterwards when he came out? Did you go >> It was It was almost >> this disbelief in a way as well. Like

00:32:56 - 00:33:48

surreal. You probably valued it because if you had just been accepted, >> your whole approach might have been different going in. I'm not saying you would have t been complacent, but do you know what I mean? It meant that much more. >> But now you know the >> you're not taking it for granted as well. I think that is what it teaches you. >> Yes. >> Is being able to be appreciative of the journey that you're on. >> Um because it wasn't just handed to you

00:33:22 - 00:34:26

on a silver platter. Yeah. you know, and um that was a very early lesson um in life. And I think my dad my parents in a way what I'm grateful for is they had they didn't want even though my dad was this public figure in South Africa and well known um he refused to just give everything to us. He was like well the only way you're going to appreciate something is if you work for it, >> earn it. >> Earn it. >> Love it. Love it. And so yeah, we we were delivering newspapers um in primary

00:33:56 - 00:34:45

school 5:00 am in the morning before before school started because he was like you're going to work for >> craft is because you need to understand and appreciate the value of money and what you're getting and what you're Yeah, >> that's that's the biggest thing because you know I I grew up >> um comfortable until I was at 14 and my dad had a stroke >> then he couldn't work. >> Oh, sorry to hear that. >> Yeah. And then everything changed at 17.

00:34:21 - 00:35:25

I had to I had to start working full-time. So I I was a I had always helped my father. So cuz he was a builder. And um when I say it was work, it was real work at a young age. Like hard. >> You'd have to be with him. >> And um at 17, my mom came upstairs on a Friday night. I was doing my homework. I was very studious. Struggled at school, but always gave it everything. My favorite saying is how I do anything is how I do everything. all in. >> Yeah. >> Um and she said, "Darling, you need to

00:34:52 - 00:35:43

get a job on Monday and you might have to drop out of college for now." And I was like, "Where's this coming from?" And she said, "We can't afford to pay the mortgage." And you got to get a job that's going to pay us at the end of the week. >> Right. So, and my mom was in she had tears in her eyes and I've never my mom's a was she was a cast iron [ __ ] She was [ __ ] tough, wonderful woman, lovely woman, but she always held it together. Yeah. And that that was fear

00:35:18 - 00:36:07

in her eyes like we're not going to be able to make the mortgage payments. And she worked right. She had two degrees. She worked but she was a civil servant so she didn't earn that much money. And I went to the local high street agency and I said 6:30 in the morning. Have you got anything starting today that will pay me at the end of the week? I'll take it. Whatever it is. And they said well we've got a job as a toilet clean in a hospital. I said yes please. I'll take it. And they started laughing cuz I said

00:35:42 - 00:36:35

no one ever says yes please and thank you for for a toilet job. And I said, "Look, it's noble work, no problem." So I did that for 3 months. And um and then how I fell into recruitment was I was handing in my time sheet and um the phones were ringing and this guy called Richard Gordon was the manager there. Uh he he was there and he was busy. So I thought I'll help out. So I said, "Good morning, HMS services. How can I help you?" And um he goes he goes, "What?" He

00:36:09 - 00:36:55

covered the phone. He goes, "What the [ __ ] are you doing?" I said, "I'm answering the telephone, you idiot. What does it look like?" And um and then he goes, "Uh, you speak English?" Cuz all the all the the toilet clans were foreign refugees. >> Yeah. >> I said, "Yeah, probably better than you do, mate." So he he started laughing. What's your story? And um but what I always say to my kids is because they've grown up with a certain level of

00:36:32 - 00:37:23

privilege. >> Yeah. >> And you the reality is you can be from a poor family now, but you have things that we didn't have as kids. >> You know, everyone's got an iPad, a flat TV screen, a cell, whatever it is, right? And I always say hustle, grind, working hard. I don't care what you have to do. You know, even if you're doing something, you don't want to do it. You're never going to use that. You're never going to do maths as a as a math doesn't matter. You got to give it 100%.

00:36:58 - 00:37:58

Yeah. >> And I I do the only thing my wife and I truly argue about is the how we raise the kids. And she's an amazing mom. >> Um but I grew up without privilege. And I just think it toughens you up and it makes you appreciative in a way that having money doesn't. >> And there's life lessons there that no other situation is going to teach you. >> Yeah. >> And down the line when you look back at it, it is going to be that uh that that's what that was about. That's what

00:37:28 - 00:38:13

it taught me. >> Yeah. >> That's how I built my character and my ability to >> It's huge. We had a guest the other day. Gather had just started working with me and um someone was had used the toilet and there were there were stains on the toilet. >> Yeah. >> And he goes, "Oh, maybe you want to go and get he just started working with me. Why don't you go and get your helper to to clean up?" I go, "What is it?" He goes, "There's [ __ ] stains on the

00:37:50 - 00:38:30

toilet." I said, "Oh, hurry." And then I I cleaned it with a and then he looked at me. I said I said, "Listen, if you're working with me, you got to roll up your sleeves. You got to get stuck in. You got to get your hands." And then and then, you know, I don't know what you thought about that, but I've just said, listen, I'm I'm grateful every day that I'm no longer a toilet cleaner. I'm grateful that I don't work on a building site, although I love working on a

00:38:10 - 00:39:04

building site. Um, but never forget where you come from, cuz I've had friends that have come from nothing and and become relatively successful and they become snobs. Yeah. >> And I flipping hate that. Never forget where you come from. Doesn't matter if you try to improve yourself, but you know, that that's visceral to me. >> Yeah. And also just the knowing that it can all be stripped away from you >> by that >> in a in a split second, right? >> It can. It truly can.

00:38:37 - 00:39:38

>> And then and then your whole world flips upside down. >> How how long was your this degree? >> Six years. >> Six years. No joke. So what happened after that when you finished? >> So finished uh worked in South Africa uh for a while. Um, you know, I was determined I was going to specialize. This is where I saw my life going. You know, very linear path >> as we all seem to have when we're younger, right? >> Of course. >> Um, but things changed

00:39:08 - 00:40:44

>> and then Oh, 100. Yeah. >> What happened? >> So, I got married. Um and then we had you know family family issues that developed uh during during the marriage which ultimately led to my husband then needing to sort of take this period out of Singap out of South Africa >> um to just get a way to get some perspective of what was happening. um his parents were going through a divorce um and that was supposed to only be a three-month stint for him. It ended up um being extended and that's then what

00:39:55 - 00:41:12

became the motivator for all right well maybe we should try this for a bit >> um let's leave South Africa and we'll go to Indonesia for a little bit and we'll see how it goes. Um, and at the time it what that meant for me was that I would take a back seat because this was obviously for his his career and I would find work um as it as it comes up. There was no plan. There was no this is so I carried on sort of studying um doing various other like post-graduate diplomas and I'm I'm big

00:40:34 - 00:41:36

on education and learning. I I you know I believe everybody should be lifelong learners. >> I love that. >> And like expand your horizon. You know the more the breadth of what you know just makes you a better human >> allows you to be compassionate and empathize with other people and truly understand where they're coming from. >> Yeah. >> Um so we ended up fast forward spending four years in Indonesia. where where >> so we spent two years in Sumatra in the

00:41:05 - 00:42:12

middle of the jungle. >> Yeah. >> Um and that in itself was a big learning. >> Was he in oil and gas? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Big learning because you're in this environment where the oil and gas companies have got these compounds where >> the employees and contractors live. So to give you some perspective in Indonesia there were about uh 10,000 uh employees and family members living in this compound gated community >> bigger than a lot of villages in Scotland and Ireland

00:41:39 - 00:42:34

>> protected. >> Yeah. >> You had an international school. You had a local school. You had a little commissery. >> Amazing. >> You had basketball courts and 18 18 whole golf course. >> Jeez, I didn't know that. All on site. Everything's on site with all the um >> is it one employer or multiple? >> So there's one main employer and then they've got the sub like the contractors um the service providers you know working there. So you've got a mix of an

00:42:06 - 00:43:08

expatriate population and you've got predominantly local employees. But within the expatriate population it creates a very different professional working environment particularly where you're talking about like doctor patient relationships. M >> because often times you know your GP for example that you see >> you're not socializing with them >> in your social circles right there's that distinction >> and so when you're living in this environment >> yeah it becomes a very tricky situation

00:42:37 - 00:43:49

>> what were they farming like is it was it palm oil >> no inra oil oil >> did you ever go to Madan >> I didn't go to Madan yeah haven't visited Madan before >> okay Um, but yeah, so it it was a an interesting way to navigate that as well. And we were coming in and at the time I worked sort of on a part-time basis as well for the same as a contractor for the same oil and gas company. And um, we were pretty young and everybody in the expatriate community either had were, you know, schoolgoing

00:43:13 - 00:44:23

parents or had schoolgoing kids, should I say, >> or they were the empty nesters. M >> and so we were in this very few that didn't have kids at the time, weren't empty in nesters. Um, so it was navigating those complexities within that environment as well where you're socially isolated in a sense because you're living in this compound but at the same time to maintain those professional boundaries. you can't be going to all, you know, the weekend parties, for example, and you

00:43:48 - 00:44:56

you can't be, you know, it's it's that sort of um relationship management that you have to be acutely aware of. >> Yeah, it's got to be tough. >> Yeah, it was a learning learning experience for sure. And >> you were there for four years? >> Two years in Sumatra. Okay. And then two years we we then relocated to Bali Papa. Okay. Um and that was um you know very different. It was like more seaside. We weren't sort of in the Simatan jungle. >> My my first employee who used to work

00:44:22 - 00:45:14

for my father uh-in-law he his dad was in oil and gas and he wor he lived in Bali Papa for years. >> Oh >> yeah. And uh he said most people have never even heard of it. And he said this I this was back in the day but he said you know they would have a show for driver for safety and security and this what was it like when you were there? Same. Same thing. >> Same. We lived in the gated gated community. Uh you were given, you know, company car. You had a driver to take you everywhere. You weren't permitted to

00:44:49 - 00:45:40

drive yourself. >> Yeah. >> Um it was it's not wasn't as strict, I would say, as Sumatra. Sumatra, we weren't allowed to leave the compound. Um and there were buses that was arranged. >> It's crazy. It's just >> X amount of times per week. When people are hearing you describe this, they just can't they don't they won't be able to relate to it or think it's even real. >> Yeah. And you had to put your you had to apply to get your name on that bus list

00:45:13 - 00:46:11

to go into the nearest like town to go grocery shopping if you wanted to get something more than what was available. >> Did you feel claustrophobic like emotionally in some ways >> over time? I think the isolation for sure. >> Um and and maybe that was also because >> we were the medical professionals. >> Yeah. So it caused some isolation as well. I mean I had a group I had a really great group of friends and and women that I would golf with and you know but you also had to maintain

00:45:43 - 00:46:54

certain distances. It is hard. It is hard. Um, but then one thing that that taught me was now you're in this environment, you have this commissery which has a limited supply of teas and your coffee selection is now reduced, you know, and it's all dependent on what stock is coming in etc. And I remember after several months of being there, coming like flying back home to South Africa and I went into the grocery store with my mom >> and I was so overwhelmed by the choices. >> You smashed everything

00:46:19 - 00:47:07

>> that we that that was there and I I stood in front of the tea section. >> Yeah. >> And my mom had gone up and down the aisles and she came back and she was like, "What what are you doing?" >> Yeah. And I was like, well, have you ever thought about how much selection and how many options you actually have? >> That's a good point. >> And it and it and it took me back by realizing again in that moment, we take all of these things for granted. >> 100%.

00:46:43 - 00:47:44

>> And the only way that you >> ultimately get to appreciate it is when >> it's when you're deprived from it to a certain extent. Right. >> So so so valuable that lesson. >> Yeah. So it it made a lot of people hoarders over the time. I won't lie. You know, you go home, right? You go home. I mean, I flew home on several occasions with a whole lamb. A whole lamb in my suitcase. Chopped up. >> Chopped up in my suitcase. >> I bet. >> Um but but that was that was that was

00:47:14 - 00:48:28

the life. Um >> so so then what happened after that? After Indonesia, is that how you came to Singapore? So after Indonesia, um my husband got a direct role with the oil and gas company and then we were sent to Singapore. We came to Singapore on an expatriate assignment. >> Okay. >> Um I was the trailing spouse. Uh had a son in Indonesia, went home to give birth, came back. So he was two at the time that we moved here. >> Okay. Um and the yeah the the intention there was moving to

00:47:51 - 00:48:45

Singapore because of the work opportunity that had presented itself um for my husband and it was a great opportunity for him >> and Singapore would have felt you know like a complete contrast now given where you were coming from. >> Oh yeah you know like massively >> night and day massively >> night and day >> massively for sure. Um, but it was that experience, the adventure, the experience of it, the opportunities that could potentially >> And when when did you start? You did

00:48:18 - 00:49:18

some further. That's why I was looking at my notes. So, it says here, Royal College of Physicians in Ireland. >> Yes. Was that international? >> Yeah. So, over the over the years, I had continued to educate myself. Um, as you said, lifelong learning. >> Yeah. Various postgrad and and they span. And I remember at one point um I had this debate with my husband and he was like, "Well, you need to decide like where where are you going? Like what direction are you going in?"

00:48:47 - 00:49:52

>> Because I was all over the place. I was um you know, I had a I had studied um I did a a diploma in HIV medicine. So in South Africa before I left, I was working in pediatrics. >> Yeah. >> Um predominantly in the HIV TB co-infected space. >> So tough when children are born Yeah. >> And that that's a hard and HIV with the stigma and and at the time we had the ARVs and you know that was hugely powerful. >> Um seeing people on death's door. >> Yeah.

00:49:20 - 00:50:35

>> You know 6 months later being able to function. >> Um hugely powerful. Um so yeah the the my learning journey has spanned across occupational health, mental health, um HIV medicine, I did pediatrics, um occupational medicine um and and then I found myself yeah interested in sort of digital health when that when that presented itself later down the line as well. Um so a little bit all over the place but I feel I did palative care as well. >> Yeah. um that ultimately >> that's an interesting one because I find

00:49:57 - 00:50:58

in in um like in Ireland my my mom and dad went through it >> and um >> I think they're kind >> in a way that you know it's because euthanasia is something that people don't like to talk about. I just think it's ridiculous that you know you expect people it's my personal opinion to be so much pain for long extended periods of time and you're basically keeping them alive. Do you know what I mean? Um, and my mom said to me, "Will you take me to Switzerland to to help end my life?" And

00:50:28 - 00:51:11

I said, "If I can, but I I started doing the research." >> And I said, "Why didn't you ask you my brother out of interest?" She goes, "Well, I know you'll do it, right?" And then I said, "I will do it if I can, >> but you know, it's not straightforward." I said, "I what I'd be doing is effectively illegal in the eyes of the law." >> Um, because we really looked at it and and then when she went into palative care, it was

00:50:49 - 00:51:49

>> Yeah. I I I just think they they uh they were great and it's something it's it's such a hard job to do. >> It is >> right. But actually I have to say it's it's very meaningful. >> Yeah. >> To the families and to the person that's dying. >> So I did I spent my time in paliotative care and that was driven by working in the TB HIV co-infected space that I was in. >> Yeah. and paliotative care. Well, one, it's I think for a long time

00:51:19 - 00:52:22

a very misunderstood um area of medicine. >> Yeah. >> Underappreciated, underresourced. >> Yeah. >> Um but the time that I spent there was pretty early in my career >> and it fundamentally shifted the way I thought about life, >> about medicine. >> Yeah. And >> were you ready for it looking back? Do you feel you were too young going into because you you need that sense of maturity. If not, it'll give it to you. >> Absolutely. But what I would say I think

00:51:51 - 00:53:00

I think med school prepared us for that because in South Africa the medical the medical training what I love about it is it's grounded in immense like clinical experience. We were exposed to our first patients I think at the end of like our first year of med school. M >> and that was woven into every module that you did. So the the interaction as it should be otherwise you're just paperbased training. >> Yeah. Yeah. But remember you're you're 18 19 at the time. your, you know, your

00:52:26 - 00:53:36

frontal lobe hasn't even fully developed yet >> and you're dealing with really heavy >> um issues and um you know people's experiences and what this means for them >> and you're expected to navigate through this and and be that support for them, right? So for me I I I honestly believe that every single person in this world should do some volunteering time. Yeah. >> In a hospice setting or in a palative care setting >> cuz it's going to fundamentally change

00:53:01 - 00:54:23

the way you think. And what was profoundly what was profound for me was we had seen um during that two years that I that I spent in paliotative care we had individuals coming in from all walks of life. M >> you had underprivileged individuals who had no money at all and then you had exceptionally wealthy individuals who came in because they all had to come in to access >> through the same >> through the same doors right >> and when somebody is dying and on their death deathbed

00:53:44 - 00:54:45

>> nothing matters the material stuff doesn't matter and that was one thing that I found like moved me deeply. >> Yeah. >> Because whether it was the individual on on this side of the spectrum who had nothing >> compared to the individual on the other side who had everything. >> Yeah. >> The car that they have, the money that they have in the bank >> doesn't matter. What matters at that moment in time and every single one of those patients that we saw, it came down

00:54:15 - 00:55:25

to and of course palative care is a holistic approach, right? You're managing the family. You're managing the individuals coming to terms with you know um their mobility over time getting the finances in sorted out that spiritual journey that happens managing the pain the symptoms all of that is encompassed under the pali of care umbrella. >> Yeah. Um but those moments, those final moments, every single one of them are wanting to correct the wrongs >> on a personal relationship front.

00:54:50 - 00:55:52

>> So interesting. >> Nothing else mattered. Um and >> did you find cuz what I found interesting because my mom and dad were not religious. They were raised in staunch religious families. And I thought it'd be interesting to see right at the end, would they switch? and they never did. They they they clearly were not religious people. And um the palative care nurse that helped us, what happened was I had I've been going back to Ireland every 2 weeks when my mom was sick. And I had just got back. I had

00:55:20 - 00:56:08

only been back 2 days. And she's like the district nurse. >> So I never I only met her once. And she called me and she said, "Uh Paul, I think if you want to bring your family back, you should come back now." I said, "I've just come. I'm coming again in two weeks. And she said, "I don't think your mom's going to last two weeks." I said, "I was just there two days ago. Are you serious?" >> Yeah. >> Because, you know, I booked flights. The

00:55:45 - 00:56:37

my wife and kids are coming. She goes, "No, come now." >> Right. And then we went and then my brother came from from the UK and we all saw her. And the thing is when my mom, she was actually she was she was okay. Um, but it was weird because, you know, I I'd had to take her to the bathroom and she did have a nurse a couple of times where the nurse wasn't around >> and then taking your mom to the bathroom is is a very weird thing. >> Yeah, >> it was really weird. And then um I this

00:56:10 - 00:57:03

is what came out in the 9D breath work was the last conversation I had with her where she was lucid. She said I was still trying to convince her she was going to get better, right? Um, but also because I was just trying to cheer up and uh she said, "Where are you going on your next adventure?" Cuz I go on a lot of solo adventures trips. I said, "I want to go to Mongolia." We talked about it a little bit. And um anyway, so what happened was I came back. This was 2 weeks after the family and I had been.

00:56:37 - 00:57:22

And then I get a phone call. Sorry. I turned my phone off cuz I kept looking at it. >> And the thing is, you just don't know how long is a piece of string. How long is she going to last? >> Yeah. >> And I had turned my phone off cuz I was obsessed with looking at my flip. like when was mom last online? >> Yes. >> And um and then I have this dream that I'm riding a black horse in Mongolia next to two white horses and it was very very deeply spiritual and you know

00:56:59 - 00:57:53

rarely do you remember your dreams and I woke up it was 3:00 and I thought I think my mom's passed away and as I got up my wife I didn't say anything my wife went to the bathroom cuz I'd woken her up. She gets a phone call from my cousin who is with my mom and her husband saying your mom's passed away and I thought that's weird. >> Yeah, >> that's freaky. Right. And um so then we my wife and I flew back just us. We didn't take the kids. And then I came back from the funeral and I said to my

00:57:26 - 00:58:17

wife, I think I'm going to go to Mongolia. And I flew off the next day. I ended up falling very sick there cuz I think I was just emotionally wrecked. >> And I went and rode horses and I and I lived out this kind of spiritual goodbye to my mom. And then during that 9D breath work, I swear, man, I was transported, but I was I was almost I wasn't riding the horse. I was the horse. >> Yeah. >> I was next to my mom and dad. >> And then there's I don't know if you

00:57:51 - 00:58:49

remember this bit. The man who was recorded. He did he say buffaloos? Did he talk about buffaloos? Do you remember that? >> I can't remember. >> So So I remember because I Well, that's what I thought or that's what I thought I heard. Then I was in in the Midwest of America. And then I was a buffalo stroke Native American Indian running with the buffalo. I was the buffalo and I was the Native American Indian. And it was like this is, you know, I've never done drugs, right, or I was or anything, but

00:58:20 - 00:59:22

this is must be what it's like. And I was there. >> I was there. That's no [ __ ] I felt really connected. Anyway, before I start crying, what So then, so what happened then? So you now on this journey. What happened with you and your husband at this stage? Were there some developments? >> So So then, so we ended up we were we were in Singapore. Um, you know, for me, because as a trained medical doctor, every country has their own regulations on how you can practice, how you're able to get

00:58:51 - 01:00:01

licensed, etc. And Singapore has a very specific second schedule, is what they call it. And so depending on where you got your undergrad medical degree, that would determine whether or not you're entitled to apply for registration licensing to be able to practice here as a practicing doctor. Unfortunately, there are no South African universities on that second schedule despite >> despite South African medical schools sort of being in that top 100. But it is what it is. Um and there's also no

00:59:26 - 01:00:21

bridging option in the sense that you know if you go to the UK you can write the PLABS and then you can work under supervision. Australia has a very similar pathway. Canada, the US etc. But there's no pathway like that per se at the time you know for for Singapore. So I remember having several conversations with individuals at the you know Singapore Medical Council saying okay well what are my options you know because I'm I'm a fighter. I' I've been a fighter since getting into med school.

00:59:54 - 01:00:52

what are my options now? What can I do? >> Yeah. >> And I kept getting, well, you're going to have to go back to med school. And I was like, uh, what? >> Yeah. >> You know, I've kind of been there, done that. Um, you know, six years is it's a long time. >> Hell yeah. >> Um, and then it was more about, you know, being a trailing spouse comes with a whole host of other things. you know, there's a there's a reason why you're a trailing spouse because you're

01:00:23 - 01:01:48

generally there to support the career progression >> of your husband or your wife. >> Um, but that then sort of starts to put question marks around your own identity, right? Um, within the family as the family grows, your own professional career, what does that mean for you? And often times the trailing spouse um we've got to make do or make the best of whatever situation we had >> because you're compromised. >> You're compromised. Yes. Um, so it took me having to then change my own mindset

01:01:05 - 01:02:27

of well, we're no longer on this linear path of specialization, thinking that this was exactly how my life was going to plan out um to well, what can I do now? This is the skill set. Where am I going to go? So moving to Singapore, my work continued. I I continued working as a as a contractor for um for for Chevron uh in Indonesia. Um and then I did some work as a medical auditor for a medical insurance company across Southeast Asia. So a lot of my work took me out of Singapore because I wasn't by right permitted to work here.

01:01:45 - 01:02:57

>> Yeah. Madness. Um and then you know that brought around various experiences in different settings. Um what I really liked about that was you had the cultural experiences. I had it in South Africa. I got exposed to the healthare system in Indonesia. And then fast forward a couple of years I ended up in Kazakhstan also working in oil and gas. That in itself was a very different environment. Um, as well >> it's meant to be beautiful, right? Harsh harsh land though. >> Yeah. And and extremes extreme

01:02:22 - 01:03:26

temperatures. I had never felt >> like minus >> 30° C. >> Can't even contemplate it. >> I mean it I I think like after you get to -14 Yeah. >> it doesn't really matter how how much colder it gets. You just don't feel it anymore. And that's why the people there so they they they have to be. >> They have to be they have to be. So that was a very interesting time too in my career was getting getting exposure to that working environment as well. >> Can you can you talk about that because

01:02:54 - 01:04:03

why why I think your message is so important on a number of different levels. One of them is about resilience and how do you pivot and adapt because unfortunately most of our careers my the slogan for my my uh podcast is you know no career journey is a straight line >> and isn't that isn't that so I mean that's so fundamentally true >> but yet and and I think now my hope is that you know the our our children who are who are educated now through this system >> is no they're no longer focused on,

01:03:29 - 01:04:19

well, this is the only way that I could go. But when we were growing up, it was like you were going to be a teacher or you were going to be a lawyer and this was the path that you were going to do. >> Um, and if you were a doctor, the expectation was either you're going to stay a GP or you needed to specialize and and that was the path. >> It was dictated, right? >> Yes. Um, and all these other fringe things wasn't really an option for us. But when you find yourself in a

01:03:54 - 01:04:48

situation >> you do you find though because I think you know what I always say to people is because a lot of careers are not by design because you didn't have those options right so I always tried to ask people about or talk to people about is you with whatever options you have you try to need to be intentional because you got to think about will this take me towards where I want to be in two steps or three steps. Um, but the challenge is for a lot of us when we're when we're,

01:04:21 - 01:05:20

you know, you're cornered, you're not really thinking like that. You're just thinking, how do I get paid? How do I get through this now? You know, I can't think about five years from now. I'm thinking about five weeks from now. >> Yeah. >> You know, but talk a little bit about that and then your adaptability. >> So, I think the overall I choose to view it this way. Every setback that I had and this started from childhood. um all the way down and we never spoke about

01:04:50 - 01:05:44

that like not not making it into the hockey team in primary school where my my first hockey coach told you didn't >> no they said I was too bad >> and she said I think you need to choose another sport because I don't think hockey was for you and how old were you >> and in my head I was 12 at the time >> and in my head I thought well I'm going to prove you wrong >> I love it >> and I and that's I think that was probably like the secret driving force

01:05:18 - 01:06:15

for like getting me into field hockey because I was determined. >> Isn't that funny? The f the irony is is that that shaped you. It made you, right? Because I had on my podcast last week um my high school, one of my uh very dear friends, Kukai Jackson, who's a two-time Commonwealth gold medalist. And when he he was on the British team, I think at the age of 12, and one of the head coaches there said to his coach, "I don't think this guy has got the chops for this. He just doesn't have it." and

01:05:46 - 01:06:37

he ended up being the longest serving member of the British team. And um and then my when my son had a coach and he got onto the national Singapore boxing team, he said his coaches, he doesn't know if his coaches believe in him. And I said, "Fuck your coaches, mate. You believe in yourself." >> Yeah. >> Right. And there there is a time though because you do need people to see you. You need do need people to believe in you. Um but that those people are very rare and very special. And I always used

01:06:11 - 01:07:05

to say to him, I see you, right? You need to see. I don't know why I was delusional. No one ever saw me. I always saw myself. >> But that's but that's powerful, you know. That that is hugely powerful. Yeah. >> Because >> ultimately if you can get to a place where >> you are rooting for yourself in the corner, >> then that's the strongest thing that you've got because then whatever anybody else tells you, you can tell them to go [ __ ] right off. Right.

01:06:38 - 01:07:28

>> Because if you've got the belief, >> then it might take you 100 steps to get to where you are. Yeah. >> And it might it might not be a straight road, but you're going to start making headway as long as you have that belief that's there. >> It's it's so important. It really is. But it's so funny cuz I always ask people, you know, what what is driving in your in your career today or whatever it is that you're doing? And you know, for some people it's revenge, sometimes

01:07:03 - 01:07:55

it's to prove themselves, sometimes it's fear of loss, sometimes it's to be the best or for people to believe. And the truth is it's a myriad of all those things. Um, but what I find with my own kids, I don't know. I just I I maybe I I feel like I never had it and but therefore I never wanted it. I never needed people to believe in me. I always just thought, you'll come along for the ride. You'll see. It's a it's a strange thing cuz I think my brother and I like

01:07:29 - 01:08:14

my brother and I he's he's my my mom, sorry, my wife always said to my mom, "How did you raise these boys to be so that basically they're overly confident, right? It's not real. It's like they're delusional." Um but what we would come down and say, "Mom, dad, look how we shut our muscles. We'd be doing this." They would just ignore us. Yeah. >> And um there were there were loud there were loud voices in our household. I always say there were two and a half

01:07:51 - 01:08:38

crazy guys in our house. I said, "My mom, my dad, me and my dad and my brother was half crazy, you know." But it's but it starts with that. And I think like, you know, we you know, you've got a son, I've got three kids. Always try to get them to believe in themselves >> first. You have you have to >> you have to you have to you have to >> and that that's where I'm grateful I think that is what sport teaches you for me like from a young age if you're

01:08:15 - 01:09:22

playing >> and and I would go as far as saying individual sports but there's there's a component to team sports which goes to a whole different you know level of of what that teaches you within a team environment >> but ultimately that comes down to this trust that you have and the confidence and the belief that you have in yourself. >> Yeah. >> Um and yeah, it it it it's a powerful motivator when somebody tells you that you can't do it. >> Yeah. >> Do you have what it takes inside you to

01:08:48 - 01:09:39

be like, "Yes, I do and I'm going to show you." >> Yeah. You know, >> it's it's it's funny because um in particular with my son's friends that he's grown up boxing with, some of them have been his competitors, others are just guys and win, lose a draw, if they've had a fight, I'll always write to them. I'll send them a little note on Instagram. And um because I think a lot of young men, they don't have that, right? And it's it's in in boxing in

01:09:13 - 01:10:09

particular, it's a very lonely place. There's nowhere to hide. If you lose, you lose. you risk being knocked out. Yeah. And the embarrassment of it, >> forget even going to hospital. People just that that whole psychology >> and it requires a certain something. But it was funny because I chose I loved playing football or soccer, but we had a really bad football team. >> Mhm. >> Right. And um and I just I didn't understand this concept. Well, why are we losing? I know I'm I'm great. Why? So

01:09:42 - 01:10:26

that's why I went into solo sports, but the truth is even if you're doing individual sports, you always have a corner team. You always have those people that support. You have to have it. You have to have it. And you know, you're doing a lot of the training on your own, but I think there's there's and in the corporate world, there's so much value to team sports. >> So, what happened after that? What was next? >> So, where are we now? >> We've we've

01:10:03 - 01:11:27

>> we're we're going into Kazakhstan. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. So, this opportunity presented itself. Um again, oil and gas. um uh same big organization that I'd been working as a contractor for and I was offered this opportunity to do this 28-day rotation as a medical doctor/medical adviser in Kazakhstan. >> Mhm. And I I was intrigued by it because I thought, [ __ ] you know, 28 days on and then you're off for 28 days and you can do whatever you want. There's no talk of

01:10:46 - 01:11:59

work. You don't even get the laptop home. Nobody contacts you. So, you're only working 6 months of the year. Like, >> wow. Um, and it it started off the end of 2019. Um, and at the time, you know, back home there was also a little bit of, you know, my my my husband not wanting me to go because of the extended period of time. >> Yeah. >> And and I could I could understand that, but I thought, wow, this is this is a great opportunity. And actually in that environment over the years that Tangis

01:11:23 - 01:12:31

Chevroy in Kazakhstan had been operational, they had not had a female doctor in that position at at all. >> And it's a very maledominated industry in general. Right. >> Big time. >> So I was looking at it at all from all of these sort of aspects. Well, you know, it's occupational medicine. That's that's one of my interests as well. I love preventive health care. Um, I only get to work 28 days of the month. Um, 28 days on, 28 days off. >> Um, and I'm now, you know, this is an

01:11:56 - 01:13:01

opportunity for me to kind of like do something different and and and maybe bring in that female voice, you know. >> Um, >> and so I ended up taking um taking the role. um caused caused some issues back, you know, at at home on a personal level, but I I felt this was the right decision to do and to make at the time. Um and so I I went off for my first hitch, which was an extended hitch. So hitch is the name that we give to the time that you're working on site. >> How long was it in the end?

01:12:28 - 01:13:49

>> Uh so I think it came down to about seven weeks, I think. A long time. >> Yeah. >> Came back home, had my off time. Um and then the second hitch I was due to go back um and it was supposed to be a 28 day. Um so now we're into middle and start of 2020. Um got there and um it was during that second hitch that you know the world got hit with >> co >> and boy what a crazy time. Um so what ended up happening was I was not able to leave. Uh the borders in Singapore

01:13:09 - 01:14:16

closed down, couldn't get back home in time and I was still on my hitch. >> Jeez. >> And at the time they had established this emergency management team to which I was called up as the medical sort of lead on the team. >> Which month was this? >> Um >> remember March. February, March. >> So So you're coming out of the cold. >> Yeah. Um, so that was starting to ramp up. Um, and then my option of coming home was completely shut down because now I couldn't get in. Um, I was a dependent

01:13:42 - 01:14:47

passholder. So at the time, if you remember, you could only get back into Singapore if you were a citizen or a PR >> and anybody else kind of fell down the list and you know, you had to >> even even a DP. >> Even a DP actually. Yeah. You you you didn't you were way down >> mad. Um so what ended up happening during that time was in 2020 I got stuck out in Kazakhstan for about eight eight nine months somewhere there. >> Wow. um with the world changing dramatically

01:14:14 - 01:15:48

month after month, you know, and what that then meant was now we had to very quickly from an organizational standpoint pivot and reduce our footprint because just to give you some context in the oil and gas field you've got approximately >> about 45,000 thousand workers on duty at any given moment in time. That's how large the operation is. >> Um and so this is you know direct employees with contractors, subcontractors, all of them are staying in the same compound. Um, and so the big mission came, well, now

01:15:01 - 01:16:22

we need to start repat we need to repatriate these individuals back home to their home countries >> and get down to the least amount of individuals that we need to allow for operations to continue in a safe manner, >> provided that if things go to [ __ ] we're able to support them from a medical standpoint. So that became the work then for those nine months uh working on the front line, putting up quarantine facilities, um organizing chartered flights, massive logistic mission to get cuz we had

01:15:42 - 01:16:48

workers from all over the globe. Some of them couldn't go back home. So we had to figure out well where can we put them in the interim because they can't stay here. >> Where do we house them? um where do we send the families? Um all most of the expatriate families who were residential um ended up being sent home. Um so that then came with you now have to swab test. Then they've got to get onto a flight. Then certain countries had their own quarantine um regulations when you landed. Yeah.

01:16:15 - 01:17:24

>> How that was going to work. Um if you remember during the time uh aircrafts were grounded, nobody was flying. >> So we had we had to invoke the help of embassies. >> Yeah. Cuz you had li limited medical supplies and >> absolutely everything. Everything. And then not just getting people out, but then getting medical professionals in. >> Yeah. mobilizing every nurse, every doctor that we possibly could that could help because the national population, they were still going to stay, right?

01:16:51 - 01:18:00

>> Of course. >> So, we had to put infrastructure and measures in place that was there to help support and resources that they could access, bring in ventilators, bring in testing, um, supplies, medication. >> Mad time. What happened then? So when when you did eventually get the chance to come back, how are things then? What happened after that? >> So 20 So yeah, 2020 got stuck out for 8 n months. Came back home for a little bit. I had a bit of an extended period home and then we thought the world was

01:17:24 - 01:18:22

going to be okay. So I ended up going back on my next hitch. Then we got hit with a delta wave. So then I got stuck out again cuz then Singapore opened up their borders a little bit and then it completely shut down again. >> And your husband was here the whole time? and my son. Yeah, >> that must have been so tough. >> It was It was It was dealing with um >> You must have been going um just mental. >> It was definitely challenging and highly stressful as well because we were

01:17:52 - 01:19:16

working long hours on that side. Um and then you know you've got schools were closed. Uh my son was being homeschooled at the time. Work was everything was happening at home, right? Um and yeah, there was just pressures that came from that as well. M >> um so coming back after being stuck out again for the second time of 9 months, coming back and then having to deal with my own I guess the trauma anxiety of being in that high pressured environment and having to in 2020 sort of come face to

01:18:35 - 01:19:32

face with my own mortality. M >> you know when you're in a place and your evacuation routes are out you're there you're a frontline worker you're exposed to this virus every single day there are no guarantees and if you get sick you know that the ICUs and the hospitals are overwhelmed so so what's going to happen to you then >> it just must be mentally exhausting emotionally >> and also just I mean I've being trained in South Africa we we're we're trained

01:19:03 - 01:20:05

in a resource limited setting so I I know the theory behind how do you decide which two patients get a ventilator, right? That those ethical decision making um that process that happens alongside that. >> Yeah. >> So, it became a a real in yourrface. Okay. Well, if things go to [ __ ] now, I I mean I'm healthy. I think I should be okay, but there are no guarantees here. So, if I do get sick and I end up having to be >> super tough. >> Yeah. How do I get home? Um, so having

01:19:34 - 01:20:38

those hard conversations with a colleague of mine to say, >> I have a child at home and I know that we only have three ventilators and if if I get sick, I need you to give me my give me your word that you're going to try everything that you can to just keep me alive that I can say goodbye. That's all I'm asking. >> Yeah. >> Um, but then that it makes it very real. And oftentimes I feel like when I'm when I talk about these experiences that we had in Kazakhstan, it's very difficult

01:20:06 - 01:21:14

for other people to relate to it because everybody was living in their own bubble, right? Um >> and you were away, you were isolated from your family, >> you know, >> so isolated from the family. Um and that's you know, I think relationships in general for many people started to deteriorate over that time. It was either separation or it was too much >> otherwise you would be away for 7 8 hours of the day. >> I didn't think of that. I think a lot of people went through that that cabin

01:20:41 - 01:21:49

fever. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Yes. >> Um and then what happened? What was next? >> So yeah, had my own mental health challenges. um dealing with a whole combination of things, you know, relation personal relationships deteriorating, my own mental health and anxiety coming from the experiences in Kazakhstan and everything just kind of closing in. >> Um I consider myself to be a mental advocate, but I got to a point where I was doing everything right from a conservative standpoint, but wasn't

01:21:15 - 01:22:38

coping at all. >> Yeah. So I had to put my pride in my pocket um and go to my GP and be like yeah I need those meds now you know but but that in itself was a very hard journey >> to >> Is that when you started therapy is it? >> Uh no my therapy had started back in Kazakhstan already. I'd continued with it as well. >> Um and well during Kazakhstan times but yeah it was a combination of all of that. Um and then you know into 2022 um I ended up in a situation where like

01:21:56 - 01:23:12

most I would say you know we know the statistics now 56% of of marriages end in separation or divorce and that's sort of where I found myself um >> which was a whole learning experience as well. And I say that because you know when you are if you just take the two scenar scenarios of if you're in your home environment with your family with your own you know friend support system versus yeah >> being in a country where you don't have family where you don't necessarily have

01:22:34 - 01:23:37

the same support system it's a very different situation. >> You're also dealing with the complexities of you know the legal framework that you're finding yourself in. Yeah. >> Um, and what that means and you're on a dependence pass, which means you're like, well, what happens? Am I going to be able to get another job? And >> how how how does this out? You know, and and I >> these are this was a situation that coming here was never something that I thought about. It was never in

01:23:06 - 01:24:42

>> the part. It was never part of the timeline. So, it was never given any thoughts. And it was only when I found myself in the situation did I start to realize the implications of it. Um and I quickly realized that I needed to I always take myself back to right if I don't know I need to educate myself. M >> so I spent a lot of time educating myself on how is how does this work? What are the options? you became a legal expert in >> I spent in total I think about six seven months educating myself in the library

01:23:53 - 01:24:52

reading primary statutes understanding because obviously I'm I'm South African as well right so we're talking about South African law that comes into play versus Singapore law >> and so for many expatriate families that's a situation right you're sitting with two different potential jurisdions that you need to be aware of. And these aren't topics that >> are front of mind when you're making these decisions to go into a new country to become a trailing spouse because

01:24:23 - 01:25:22

yeah, we all like to think of, you know, the the great experiences and and and whether it's driven by the career opportunity or the the money that comes with that or the opportunities that is going to be presented to your children and travel. These are all really nice things to talk about. But there is a darker side. there's a darker side of all of this >> big time >> that nobody talks about and that nobody wants to have open conversations about. And usually what I found now

01:24:52 - 01:25:51

>> after being involved in the space um and experiencing it firsthand is that the people who have the information >> Yeah. >> are the ones who end up are who are going through it. You only come to know these things either because you've heard of it from a friend who's going through a certain similar situation or you yourself have now found yourself in this and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] what now?" >> And and it it destroys so much, right? Because you if you have children, I

01:25:23 - 01:26:13

mean, in the end, I think the children probably better off than having a couple that are together but shouldn't be together. But like I had I told you one of my dear friends, it's one of my wife's best friends, Aman, who's a divorce attorney. She's she's recently given up law to to kind of coach people through this journey. Um, but I had her on the show and I I was asking like myths about divorce. What can you debunk? And I asked her questions like, "Is there a popular time where people

01:25:47 - 01:26:46

serve divorce papers?" And she said, "Chinese New Year birthdays and holidays. People are so vindictive. They will want you to deliver divorce papers on Chinese New Year when their family's around and stuff like that." I said, "Wow, it's kind of crazy." And you know the thing is >> I'm I'm I want to write four books. I've started writing four books. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It'll take time. But one of one of the books is how do you win her twice?

01:26:16 - 01:27:08

referring to me and my wife and how do you win her the first time actually it should be how do you win it like a dozen times because we've been to get like so this this summer is our 20th wedding anniversary >> and um yeah depends what happens in the US but uh we we're going to the US with our three kids and I've rented this like ranch in Jacksonhole Wyoming with the Grand Tetons in the background and it's just going to be the five of us renewing our vows. >> Oh that's beautiful.

01:26:42 - 01:27:38

>> Yeah. And I always tease my wife because I'm romantic, she's not, right? But uh we we're the complete opposite of each other in so many ways. But I always write silly messages to her. So like I'll say, "Dear Mrs. Quinn, you're cordally invited to a romantic dinner with your extremely sexy, handsome husband. Please RSVP by 6 p.m." And I remember when we first met, like I took out a diary and I wrote our initials and I said, "We are now TMP Productions,

01:27:10 - 01:28:04

Taran Paul Productions." and I wrote her initials, my our initials in the corner of each page. But I think what I've learned about most couples I see that going through divorce, it's for a few reasons. It's um of course there are so many more, but empty nesters, >> that's one of the common traits. >> Um early menopause, menopause, no one's talking about that. So my wife had a hyerectomy last year, >> so she's going through early menopause now and she's only 45. So we've talked

01:27:37 - 01:28:23

about that and I was teasing my son. And I said, "Mate, you need to be very careful and they're very close. You know that they have a very special bond." But I said, "You don't want to chat any [ __ ] because your mom's spitting bullets." >> Yeah. You got to be measured right now. >> You know, be very careful otherwise you're going to have to get out of the way. Um and then >> telling to watch the Matrix. >> Yeah, exactly. You are Neo. And then the

01:28:00 - 01:28:55

other thing is is and we're going this bring me to the next point about you is financial independence because a lot of women you know they they can earn their own money or they realize through the divorce they can they can do okay. Um so in other words they're not tolerating [ __ ] And the weird thing in Singapore is this whole thing where you basically get married before you get married with an HDB flat >> which is it's kind of weird. It's so weird right? It's alien to me. I always

01:28:28 - 01:29:29

say you should probably why don't you live together for a couple of years and see what happens. But let's talk about financial independence as a woman because that is so important. >> Yeah. And look, I mean, I'm I'm still in the process, still trying to find my feet. I think I've through all that has happened to me I've now realized I think early in my career I think for most people it's like that >> where it's all about the achievements and it's all about the recognition right

01:28:58 - 01:29:54

and I think now it's it's come to and I think it it coincided sort of with my own >> going through per menopause as well where there's then that shift yeah you're not going to take the [ __ ] anymore but um you're also trying to design a life that is aligned with your own values and that's going to be meaningful in the long term. That's going to give you that balance. >> So important, >> you know, and and it's I've reached a point where I realize it's it's not all

01:29:26 - 01:30:27

about the grafting. Like you can be selective now on how you're going to spend your time. >> You have to be >> you have to be because it's precious. >> Yeah. >> And tomorrow is not guaranteed for any one of us. >> Yeah. But going back to your question around you know the the financial independence part I think um for women in my situation where you do have if you find yourself as a trailing spouse in a country where you don't necessarily automatically have the right to work it

01:29:57 - 01:31:07

becomes a challenge for you >> and particularly if you've got children who are here >> because that becomes a factor. because you can't just take them and leave. >> The law doesn't allow you to do that. >> And if there's no agreement on how do we see this playing out, what is the long-term plan going to be? >> Um even if we separate or you end up finalizing your divorce, how how are you still able to be part of your child's life? Yeah. >> If they're still in, you know, schooling

01:30:32 - 01:31:54

years, for example. >> Yeah. I always think the lawyers are the ones that come out on the right side of things because they they that's how they make their money which in itself is is scary. >> Yeah. And I think my my learning was um I think at the core of how I wanted to or approach this process is with integrity, right? um at the end of it. Um I feel and and I I support a lot of women now going through this um trying to just share what I know and to help them think about the things that maybe they

01:31:13 - 01:32:09

should be >> so that they're not necessarily spending, you know, hundreds of dollars >> on an unnecessary consultation with a lawyer. Now, I I don't ever >> hundreds thousands of dollars, right? >> Absolutely. I would never I'm not a qualified lawyer, but I understand the frameworks. I understand >> also the emotional rigor, right? And I would imagine going through anything like that, you can be very isolated cuz, you know, if if if your friends, unless

01:31:41 - 01:32:49

they're your closest friends, they may not know about it. You know, they there used to be a certain level of taboo. Now, I think that's gone, but it's still difficult. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I think it's it's trying to navigate again the options that are available to you. >> Yeah. >> And being very um strategic in in in how you're going to approach this. But I think at at the center of it, >> there's a pivotal pivotal question

01:32:14 - 01:33:10

>> at the end of this process. >> And not all lawyers are equal. Um, you're going to find really good ones who actually give a [ __ ] about the family, but ultimately they're there to be paid >> whether the process ends >> Yeah. >> or not or drags out for 5 years. At the end of the day, >> when when the the deal is done, they're walking away. >> Yeah. >> They're getting paid and they're walking away. And what's left is everything that

01:32:43 - 01:33:39

is left behind. >> That's the thing. And for a lot of women, I've helped men as well, but for a lot of women, that's that's sort of my first conversation is, well, how do you want to do this? Because at the end of it, remember that this is a phase >> Yeah. >> that you're going through? You're going to come out on the on the other side and you will be okay, but how do you want that to look >> because then you've got to work backwards from there. So interesting,

01:33:10 - 01:34:10

you know, you know, um, so a few years ago when I was decided to formalize my career coaching business and the online platform and then the podcast, I'd gone to uh, an event, a business event in Miami run by a gentleman called Patrick Bet David. One of the pieces of homework was to create vision boards, one of your life and one that things that excite you. And I always like vision board, I want to do that. I thought, but listen, I paid all this money. I'm going to stay. I'm going to do it.

01:33:40 - 01:34:29

>> And actually one of the vision boards um >> I tell you where I started. So I remember I create I always do things in quadrants. >> I'm I'm I'm a patterns person. So in the top leftand corner I put a picture of the kids up and put the the names of some top universities cuz I wanted them to have a great future. I wanted to have enough money to say okay if you if you get into these universities I'll support you. So that was the first thing. And then in the bottom right hand corner was

01:34:04 - 01:34:53

a picture of me and my wife and I 50th anniversary. So I said right and then I put pictures of things I thought were seinal in her career >> what it is that she wanted to accomplish. And it's funny. So we did all those things. You know what the issue I had was what was important for me >> for you. >> And what I realized as I get older of course so my my thought process has changed. It used to be the kids come first. >> And I think that was cuz when my my first child my son was born he was in

01:34:29 - 01:35:22

hospital for the first 3 months and it was a bit touch and go. So it was like he's got to come first, but the reality is my wife comes first, >> you know, cuz the kids are going to go and do what they want. Yeah. >> But then I realize, hey mate, you've been working for your mom and dad all those years cuz I supported them from 17 onwards. Um, and then, you know, I look after Tara's mom, her kids, and ultimately, it's not that they don't care, but the kids don't really ever ask

01:34:56 - 01:35:51

me, "How was your day, dad? Did you have a good day? Are you happy?" Um and and I realized that if I don't do things that make me happy, I'm going to be a grumpy bastard at home. >> It's not going to be sustainable. So I always say to people um that that doing that is not selfish, you know, it's actually >> it's it's good for >> preserving your your your life. Now talk about um the balance of corporate health and well-being versus running, you know,

01:35:22 - 01:36:38

a busy 9 to5 or you know 8 to6 job. >> Yeah. and what you're doing now because that that's an interesting journey. >> Yeah. So, so again found myself in a situation of what am I going to do now, right? And um I wanted to I've always I've always wanted to do something that is hugely impactful and meaningful not just for me but for whoever's sitting on the other side of me as well. and being able to educate patients, clients resonates deep like it's it's an inner

01:36:00 - 01:37:21

passion of mine and it it stems from my deep belief that >> if you're looking at whether it's occupational health so in the corporate world or you're looking at preventive health care and strategies pivoting into sort of you know the wellness space and health in general General, if the client or patient opposite you does not understand what is happening >> and does not have credible information and the education around what is happening at their life in this moment, things that they need to maybe be aware

01:36:42 - 01:37:59

of of what's happening around the corner. >> It's very hard for them to make informed decisions if you don't have the information. And so that is what I feel is fundamental to every good medical provider patient medical provider client relationship. However, >> I'm cognizant that when it comes to GP practice, you know, the the way that the system is set up is that your your GP doesn't have the time >> Yeah. >> to sit with you for an hour >> Yeah. and go deep about why did you

01:37:21 - 01:38:12

sleep so [ __ ] last night? >> They're just put a plaster on it. >> You know, it's temporary. >> Most of the time it's you're coming in for acute stuff. I want to know what is your issue right now and how do we deal with that right now because I've got a waiting room full of people and I've got maybe 15 minutes to listen to you. Mhm. >> Um, and yes, you can argue that, you know, there are family medicine physicians who will who will take a more holistic. I'm not I'm not denying that,

01:37:46 - 01:38:53

but I'm saying generally speaking, the GPS out there, it's a go in, get your things sorted, go out. There's not a lot of time to really talk about deeper things across, which is crazy. >> Yeah. >> Cuz cuz our health is everything. >> Our health is everything. And it is so complex and integrated. You can't separate them out, right? >> Um, if you're feeling stressful, I can't really make a or understand that in its full context if I don't understand,

01:38:19 - 01:39:20

well, what have you been eating? What how is your exercise? What is the stress levels like at your work? >> Um, how have you been sleeping? >> What is your relationship like with your wife at the moment? you know, is it highly stressful? Is there tension there? Because all of that is feeding into >> it's all inextricably linked, right? >> Absolutely. And so the I loved occupational like working in the oil and gas. Great. Because there it's a whole different environment. you know, you're

01:38:50 - 01:40:06

working in um a industrial setting where you've got other types of risk factors that are playing a role not just on the system or the operation itself, but on the individual worker, extreme temperatures, chemical exposures, the physical labor of the work that they're doing, the psychological stress around shift work, um you know, those types of stuff. um rotational workers, the the if you're sitting and you're confined to an oil rig or you're living in a compound, you're bound by the food that the

01:39:28 - 01:40:41

cafeteria feeds you, right? 100%. >> So, if if that's not optimal and you're not reaching your protein needs, >> what then? >> Yeah. Um so I enjoyed that part of it of of how the work because we spend what seven hours eight hours of our day in our work environment >> it plays a role >> huge >> 100% and we have to acknowledge that >> um >> but then from the like where I am at the moment I'm I work in a health optimization space at matter um I'm the

01:40:05 - 01:41:14

director of operations and I work as a health coach as well. And what I really like about working in this health coach environment is I'm now sort of at the center of kind of pulling in the information from different providers within this ecosystem around the individual, if you want. >> Amazing. Yeah. >> So that could be something like maybe it's your psychologist or it's your personal trainer or it's your GP or maybe you've had to go and see a specialist, right? But there's no one

01:40:39 - 01:41:40

person that's connecting all of these for you. >> And that's hugely powerful for patients, clients, individuals to make sense of of what what's going on, right? I mean in in the in in in in the corporate world you do these 360 performance um >> yeah on on at the end of the year but but no one's what I find so interesting is if you think you've large corporates actually had someone like you doing this to optimize let's just say they only increase the optimization of every

01:41:09 - 01:42:11

employee mentally physically spiritually by 10% what would it mean to their P&L >> you know that's the future >> right no one wants to do it because it costs more money but actually you're going to make a lot more money in the process >> and we're slowly starting I mean what we what we saw happening in the corporate space after co >> because that brought a real spotlight on well your mental health and your ability to function at work is very closely linked we've known that for a while but

01:41:40 - 01:42:44

>> uh co really highlighted that >> and we are seeing certain organizations now starting to be a little bit more proactive and I think it's got to go more than just a wellness program that you run every six months, right? Where you're telling people to to eat right, etc. It's got to be embedded in the culture of the organization. I love that. >> All the way from leadership setting the example of how to do things right >> and protecting the cognitive load of the

01:42:13 - 01:43:10

employees, right? And and they they're they're not exempted from it either because they also suffer from mental health issues. What what I find really interesting is some of the top leaders that I work with, they are very health consscious. >> Mhm. >> But for whatever reason, maybe it's cuz you know the people at the highest level, they're not driving this down because you you know like you could you could literally increase your P&L to the bottom line by changing that. Just think about it if

01:42:42 - 01:43:35

you're an athlete, you're an astronaut, you're a pilot, whatever it is, you got to be ready to go. So it's interesting. So tell me about so when I'm I'm coming to spend half a day with you. I was thinking I was just saying to my wife >> I think I need to get into better shape when I go because it's like she goes well well tell her you'll be there in 6 months but but tell me about so what so you've got a hyperbaric chamber or go go through the process. >> Okay. So, so within this health

01:43:07 - 01:44:25

optimization space, the the philosophy around it is centered in you are you >> and there are certain things that in this particular season of life is going to matter to you. >> Yeah. >> And for a 30-year-old that's different >> to somebody who's in their mid-4s to somebody who's maybe in their mid-50s, for example. >> Sure. So the idea around having these modalities um you know science informed therapies that we offer health coaching at the center of it um medical partners that we

01:43:46 - 01:45:04

work with is to first of all understand well what matters to you now what are you having challenge with right now challenges with right now what matters to you and how can what we what we've built support you in trying to raise your your baseline and over time build capacity for you to be able to function really >> as you age. Now for many 20 30 year olds you know that's sort of like the the the peak years. You know our our hormones are at its highest level where we feel great. If you go to the gym and you work

01:44:26 - 01:45:28

out and you're doing the right things right you're going to start seeing the results. But as we age, our body is no longer in that state and we have to respect that. And so we have to be again strategic on how we approach this >> big time. >> Um and the effort that we put into it. Um I always make the example, you know, you probably have life insurance. >> Yeah. >> Um you have medical insurance, but why why do you have life insurance? Why do you why do you take out accident

01:44:57 - 01:45:52

insurance? You take it out for for the rainy day. But we know that aging, none of us are going to go through it, >> but no one's putting the investment into this health. >> Um, but we're we're very prepared to be reactive when the [ __ ] hits the >> You know, you know what it is? It's it's I've thought about this because two of the guys here, they're here today. Gam's one of them. He smokes >> and and I said, "Look, I want I'm going

01:45:24 - 01:46:08

to I can't ask you to do this. I'm your colleague, right? I think you should give up smoking. And I said, "Come for me. Go go go for some walks." He walks a lot every day. And I said, "Yeah, but you know, stop the smoking, right?" And and uh you know, do some push-ups and do this, that, and the other. Because the thing is, so for example, I've got more energy than anyone that works for me. And they're all younger than me. I mean, not not even by a little bit, a country

01:45:46 - 01:46:40

mile. And you know, I'm I'm actually in my worst shape right now because I had a I had a double surgery a while back, and I was struggling to recover from it. And um it's just I I turn 50 next September and the reality is that when I look at food, not even eat it, I put weight on. Right. And then it's that thing cuz I I don't know about you. So if I'm depressed or I'm upset, I I go to food. >> Mhm. >> And I eat the [ __ ] out of a lot of things. Crisps, chocolates, cake,

01:46:13 - 01:46:58

whatever, ice cream, right? You name it. Um but but I've I just said, look, the reality is if you want to be performing and you want to achieve what you want to achieve in the next 10 years, your health is central. So, going back to these guys, they they smoke because they're young. They're not thinking about their mortality. >> Yeah. >> But they can't see it. They're already don't have the energy that they should have. They're young. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing about,

01:46:36 - 01:47:33

you know, preventive health. >> Yeah. >> Is we live in a world where we're expecting instant results. >> That's the thing. >> People don't have the patience anymore to wait it out. You know, you're swallowing a pill hoping that it's going to bring you some magic cure tomorrow. And this is the world we live in because our food's delivered in 5 10 minutes. I mean, I get frustrated sometimes when the taxi says it's going to be there in 5 minutes and now he's stuck in traffic

01:47:04 - 01:48:16

and I'm like, [ __ ] why isn't he here? It's it's part of our lives now. But the downside to that is that from that the strategies of what you need to do to improve your health, >> build that capacity so that you're aging better. >> Yeah. >> Takes time >> and it takes discipline and consistency, right? >> But also building it into your life. And that's why I'm not a big fan of like generic this is a a one you know one size fit fits all. It cannot be

01:47:40 - 01:48:48

we are all individuals. >> We all experience things differently and so that is the approach that we have to take. >> So how how detailed are you doing? Are you doing things as far as blood work or do you send people? with our um so we've got the health coaching part, we have the therapies, uh med the medical providers that we work with um can do blood panels as well. And so depending on we've got three >> main programs that we focus on. One is your medical fat loss and we've we've

01:48:14 - 01:49:18

deliberately chosen that path because GLP1s are now everywhere. You know most almost all the celebrities are on it. You you know you see it everywhere. It's all over social media and and people are taking it as okay does it work? Yes it works but there are certain things that you need to be aware of. Are you going to see results? Yes you are going to receive results but it's going to come at a cost and that cost is often times you're going to lose your muscle. Yeah. >> And your muscle is your anabolic armor.

01:48:46 - 01:49:44

that is what is going to protect you as you >> I've not heard of >> as you age that way >> for sure >> and so >> we chose that particular program because we know that uh people who go on the GLP1s they lose the weight >> and then they need to get off it at some point and when they start to wean off it and they haven't built the habits and they haven't changed their lifestyle to a point that is sustainable yeah >> they're going to put the weight back on

01:49:15 - 01:50:31

and often times Sometimes it comes back faster than it than it than it >> to to to get off. Right. >> So the idea around that program is to really educate you number one on what you should be thinking about and working with you um during that process to build the habits that will be sustainable so that you can preserve your muscle so that you can continue doing strength-based training to build your muscle capacity. um that you can understand nutrition >> because remember these these these drugs

01:49:52 - 01:50:50

are turning off the s the hunger signals >> but you can't your body can only function for so long without getting appropriate macro and micronutrients. >> So at some point it's going to crash and if you don't have the right tools and information you can't make good decisions that's going to benefit you in the long term. >> Yeah. So that's the one the one program. The other one is >> hormone optimization. There we're talking about middle-aged men and women

01:50:22 - 01:51:10

>> TRT is it? >> Yeah. So the testosterone for men you're talking about. >> Do you know to I tell you a funny story. So when I had some blood work taken about a year and a bit ago I said to the doctor um how's my testosterone? He goes I didn't check for it. I said why? I thought we doing a full blood work. He goes why is it low? I said what do you mean? And he goes, "Well, are you not in your libido?" I said to him, "Well, sometimes I have to smack it in the

01:50:46 - 01:51:30

morning." And he said, "You smack your penis." Now, he said it very serious singing Frey. I said, "No, mate." It was a joke. It was figurative. I just said, "It Listen, it doesn't work like it used to." He goes, "Well, I can I can get you some Viagra and Seialis." I said, "I'm not I'm not quite there yet, and my my wife will probably run away from me." But no, but was interesting. He just didn't even want to talk about it, you

01:51:07 - 01:52:19

And I think that is um why this particular space is so interesting right now. >> Yeah. >> Is because there's a lot of through social media discussion happening. >> Yeah. >> Um the the the men's health is certainly picking up but right now you know the the trending conversations within the women's health space is per menopause menopause. But to go back to you know a as a doctor uh for many of us who were trained in the past we spent very little time on this particular

01:51:44 - 01:52:34

phase of life. >> It's the most overlooked part. >> How do how do you treat it? How do you manage it? What what should we be aware of? Right. Testosterone was a thing of well that's only something that men have. Yeah. And it's because you know one it drives libido and two it helps you stay all muscular. Yeah. >> Yes it does. But it it has a way more powerful I mean there's other functions that it has and also testosterone is made in every single female body as well

01:52:09 - 01:53:09

and there's a role that it plays. >> Yeah. >> And we're now living in a time where we are living for so much longer. >> Yeah. >> Thank you to our wonderful advances in medical therapies. >> Yes. >> Um and the years that we are spending >> Yeah. In the corporate world, being productive is >> well a chunk on the side. >> But you know what's crazy is that in terms of employment law, in terms of retirement ages, they haven't changed.

01:52:39 - 01:53:31

And it doesn't make any sense cuz I'll give an example. A lot of retirement ages are the women are meant to retire earlier than the men. I said that doesn't make sense because women live longer than men. >> I said if anything, women should be marrying younger men to keep up with them if you think about it, right? because it's always the man that dies first and then the woman's got another 20 years, right? Yeah. And so that doesn't make any sense. And then the the thing I find really interesting about um

01:53:05 - 01:53:48

this this whole discussion about as you get older, everyone's embarrassed to talk about it. Like why? >> It's just it's just natural, right? So for example, now there's this thing where men are regularly getting their hair, they're going to Turkey or wherever it is to get transplants. And you know how many people have said to me, "Have you ever considered a transplant?" And I said, "Well, you know, I never looked that good with hair. I think I look pretty good without

01:53:26 - 01:54:13

hair." And that's okay if if that's important to you and you want to go and spend that money, right? But I said, "I was a sexy [ __ ] then and I'm sexy [ __ ] now." It I'm not going to change that. But what what's interesting is no one would have talked about it. Wasn't even a thing. And I just got back from Dubai and this is >> I just It's so weird. These are the women in Dubai. Not all the women, but a lot of the women. >> Mhm. >> They got the lips out here.

01:53:50 - 01:54:45

>> The the Daisy Duck lips. It's just it's just it's bananas. And I'm just thinking we're living in this really crazy world. Um but just just in terms of you know uh there all these strength calculators if you go online >> Mhm. >> and then I just say just go and do a dead hang right and you'll realize that where you you know if if you can get to a minute you'd be doing really well. And people don't realize cuz we don't have to do anything functional anymore.

01:54:18 - 01:55:10

>> But most of us couldn't even run for the bus. I was just saying that's the So you have a test. Can you run for the bus without passing out having a heart attack? Do you know what I mean? What's the third? >> And and being Oh, and then the third one is sort of a lifestyle program. Okay. Those that's more for individuals with you know burnout. >> Yeah. >> Um who are Yeah. who are not. So you could I mean for some men if you're middle-aged there's an overlap. Um and

01:54:43 - 01:55:54

so these programs incorporate nutrition, movement, um education, health coaching, you know, blood work. Um >> what you guys are doing is so unique. It's so dynamic and cutting edge. So you have a uh ice cold plunge. >> So we've got um so at Holland Village, we have two contrast private contrast suites. Um in each contrast suite, there is a hybrid sauna. So you have a traditional sauna setting as well as infrared. Okay. >> Um and then you've got a cold plunge and then a private shower. So that space is

01:55:18 - 01:56:15

for you with one other person. Um then we've got a red light therapy bed. Uh we have a hyperbaric oxygen. >> You know they're saying red light therapy helps with your eyesight. Now I haven't I haven't I want to start looking into that. >> So the the there I would say that the evidence >> it's not there. It's new. Right. >> Correct. And with the with the red light therapy for all our clients, you know, you're putting on protective protective glasses um to protect your

01:55:47 - 01:56:36

eyes um from that. Do we have some clients who will close their eyes cuz they want the red light to kind of penetrate the upper eyelids. >> Um and we'll tell them as you know, don't look into the light for extended periods of time, of course. >> Um so that evidence is starting to emerge, but nothing concrete yet. >> Tell everyone about the hyperbaric chain because this is something that most people aren't familiar with. Yeah. So, I'm a certified um hyperbaric safety

01:56:11 - 01:57:17

director and I I manage the chamber uh at MATA. >> So, if I piss you off, you're going to mess me up. Yeah. >> Just keep you in. >> See you tomorrow, Paul. >> Um the hyperbaric oxygen therapy has been around for decades in medicine, >> predominantly used for decompression sickness. So it's you know and >> uh for diabetic patients uh the medical chambers were used for to help with wound healing as well. So >> within medicine the chambers have been

01:56:44 - 01:58:10

around for a very long time. What has happened now is it's shifted because of the benefits that providing high concentrations of oxygen in a pressurized environment can provide to the individual from a deeper healing standpoint. So it's moved into I would say the wellness space. >> Yeah. >> Where it's used um for various reasons as Well, I mean, you've always got the medical indications of when you can use hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but when we're looking at >> a healthy individual, for example, um

01:57:27 - 01:58:24

depending again on phase of life, what's happening, >> um if you're sick, uh if there's issues with energy or maybe you're just high functioning and constantly, you know, you're on this nervous system overdrive track. Yeah. >> Or you're you fly a lot. Maybe maybe you're a busy exec and you're flying between different time zones uh every you know twice twice a week for example or something like that. Um you suffer from jet lag but you need to come home

01:57:56 - 01:58:55

and you need to be productive right the hyperbaric oxygen uh therapy chamber the agebot can help with those things. >> What's the average length of time people are going into it? >> So you're in the chamber for about minimum 60 minutes. Our session times are 60. We we developed the protocol so we can customize it as well. So we have clients who have done 90 minute sessions but you're in the chamber for 60. >> Your session time is 90 minutes and that allows us to do the checks before you go

01:58:25 - 01:59:30

into the same for for me also coming from working in oil and gas. It was always safety first. There's always time to do it right or you don't do it at all. So for me safety is a big thing. >> Well you have all those deep sea divers as well in the bends and that whole decompression. It's just it's life or death, right? >> Yeah. And so and and your your the chamber itself is a specialized piece of m machinery that needs to be respected. >> Yeah. And um you know it's I think the

01:58:57 - 02:00:13

misconception that a lot of people have is you're seeing a lot of chambers in the market right now you know that are putting out all these claims around well it can do this and it can do that and it's great for this and yes uh generically speaking it is that's what the chambers can do because it uses high oxygen concentrations in a pressurized environment and there are different pressures that you can do your dive ads. But I'm finding that people who are going to social media, who are getting their information from

01:59:36 - 02:00:32

influencers, etc., who aren't necessarily educated in the space, >> be mismanaged, misused, right? >> Are are saying, "Okay, well, yeah, I'm I'm going into this chamber and I'm getting oxygen through this little pipe that's over here and it's just flowing out the oxygen in this chamber and I'm now getting close to 100% oxygen." Um, no, you're not because that oxygen that's coming through, I mean, it's being dispersed into the chamber

02:00:04 - 02:00:57

environment. That's the first thing >> which could potentially increases the oxygen concentration in the ambient air could potentially become a fire hazard as well. >> Um, and you're in in a pressurized environment. So, you have to respect the laws of physics. One, we're using the laws of physics to manipulate >> the environment to bring you the benefits of the object. >> You need to have someone who knows what they're doing basically. >> Exactly. And you need to understand the

02:00:31 - 02:01:42

differences as well. >> Wow. Um so for me it was very important that when we when matter started out um I I was advocating uh for the chamber. >> Yeah. and and I and I said, "Look, there's huge benefit that the an HBOT can bring to people from all all spheres of life. Whether you're coming in from an orthopedic post orthopedic surgery and you're recovering from a sold I mean a um a shoulder surgery >> or you've had plastic surgery done >> or the orthopedic surgeons are actually

02:01:06 - 02:02:16

and the plastic surgeons are pretty proactive in encouraging their patients to go and find a hyperbaric oxygen chamber because they know that it works with helping speed up the recovery time and reducing the swelling things like that. Um, but then from a wellness uh perspective, you're you're wanting to make sure that one, you're in a place they know what they're doing and that the chamber is giving you what you need to be able to get the benefits >> that that it's marketed.

02:01:42 - 02:02:51

>> Yeah. >> For or that they're claiming, right? >> What are the the uh average types of clientele that you guys have? What's the demographic? because it costs money, right? >> It does. It does. I I am, you know, hoping that at some point. Um, being able to hyperbaric oxygen therapy within this space is going to be something that medical insuranceances will take note of because of the benefits that it's going to bring eventually, but we're not there yet. um in in the hospital settings

02:02:15 - 02:03:16

those can definitely be but in terms of the clients we're seeing a range of clients uh we've got athletes who are coming in >> and it's and it's interesting because if you follow the sports um >> just around the world like all your top Premier League um football clubs at the moment have got hyperbaric chambers installed in their training facilities. >> Yeah, the game's changed. >> Um the game's changed, right? So you've got your athletes that are coming in

02:02:46 - 02:04:03

>> as part of not just performance >> but recovery as well. >> Recovery is everything. >> Um and as you age, we know the body just doesn't repair as it used to when it was younger. So we have to take that into consideration as well. Um then we've got uh we've we've got people who have come in who are recovering from surgical procedures >> who are using the hyperbaric oxygen uh therapy chamber as a means to speed up their recovery, help to reduce inflammation in um reduce possible

02:03:23 - 02:04:32

infections later on um swelling etc. Then we've got individuals who are high performers. Uh we've got some CEOs that are coming in and again there it's a combination of I have this really highly stressful job. >> Yeah. >> I have to often times take meetings late at night. >> My sleep is fragmented. >> I'm starting to notice all the issues I have. >> Yeah. I'm I'm starting to notice some cognitive decline which happens with age anyways. Um, and I'm wanting something

02:03:59 - 02:05:03

to help me perform better within my work, my professional life. >> They get it. They understand it. >> They get it, right? Yeah. >> Um, so we've we've got we've got those individuals. Um, and then we've got clients who travel frequently. >> Yeah. >> Um, they may be supporting or have multiple businesses and and Singapore has become a a haven for certain corporates. a lot of their HQs are here >> and so their executives are flying all over the world. Um,

02:04:31 - 02:05:33

>> and that that comes at a cost. >> You're not eating properly when you're doing longhaul flights. Your times your circadian rhythm is is messed up. Um, often times you don't have the time to get into the gym to exercise as you would in a normal routine. The flying itself poses um additional stresses on the body. um your digestive system is messed up. So the hyperbaric chamber is used as a means to help the body quickly get back into the >> people don't think about it like when

02:05:02 - 02:05:59

you get older like deep vein thrombosis getting off flights and whatnot. These are very serious issues >> from from yeah from the immobility uh standpoint and that comes down to hydration the lack of movement all of that but also because of the fluid movements um the fluid shifts that happens during long long haul flights. So that's why these the therapies actually the protocol that we have for jet lag addresses those issues from circadian rhythm management to flooding the body with oxygen so we can kind of

02:05:31 - 02:06:27

get you back on. It's >> fascinating. Um and then get you into the the h the the infrared sauna so that you have the vaso dilation so that we can start to move those that fluid that has now been >> do you go into the ice cold bath? Do you like plunging or not really? So, I'll tell you my my plunging journey is is still at the beginning. I have a very uh strong sympathetic response to cold. >> I flipping hate it. So, if we if I'm doing it, you have to do it with me.

02:05:59 - 02:06:57

>> Don't back out now. >> So, I I say, "Oh, you haven't?" Okay. So, then >> I put my foot in. I'm like, "No, that's not for me." >> And this is the the information. So the the education part because if you are my concern around when you're having >> you know you you've got >> facilities these days that are communal. >> Yes. >> And going into the sauna and doing a cold plunge is is talked about because we have all these influences talking

02:06:28 - 02:07:32

about it. But there's nuances to doing it. And what you need to understand is everything that you're doing within let's say these therapeutic modalities are signals to your body >> and you have to understand the signal because whatever you're signaling your body is going to respond based on physiology. And so jumping into a cold plunge um out of the blue without preparing for it, without knowing what to do, your body is going to take that as a massive sympathetic stressor.

02:07:00 - 02:08:00

>> Yeah. >> And you might end up doing more harm than good. And for most people who just take the dive, >> they come out of it saying, "Fuck, I hated that. I don't ever want to do that." And then they put off cold plunge. And cold plunge is a hugely powerful modality to help build up the capacity in your nervous system because what it does is we use it as a training and a lot of the like top high performers will use cold plunge not to get the muscle benefits you know because

02:07:29 - 02:08:22

their muscles are achy. They use it to train their nervous system. >> Yes. Because when you get into the cold plunge, instinctively when your body hits that level of cold, you're going to want to hold your breath. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to And your mind is just telling you, "Get me the [ __ ] out of here." >> Yeah. >> But when your mind is telling you that, you have got to train it to start breathing through it. >> And then you get to a place where you've

02:07:55 - 02:08:48

now trained your brain and your nervous system to be able to identify that threat and be like, "Okay, wait. I can manage this. I can do it. And you're breathing through it and then your body starts to settle. And that's how you build the resilience from like the the the psychological benefits and mental benefits of cold plunging. >> Yeah. >> Um so it's hugely powerful, but it has to >> you build up you have to build up to it. >> Yes. We will never put you into So I

02:08:22 - 02:09:09

always say if this is your first time and you're doing a contrast suite, >> start off in the sauna. Yeah. Yeah. >> And when you're sequencing it, so you're spending 15 minutes or 20 minutes in the sauna and you get out, go and do a cold shower >> first. >> So that you're priming and you're getting your body used to. And whether that takes you two or three sessions, you build up from there. And when you get into the cold plunge, you start maybe with your foot. Yeah.

02:08:46 - 02:09:40

>> You know, you go up to your ankle and you put it in for maybe 30 seconds. And and after that, you're feeling, okay, I this is too much for me now. Or maybe you can keep it in there for a minute. and you build up from your ankles to your knees down to, you know, your waist and then you slowly submerge down to your neck, but it's never just a go straight in and and take the plunge. >> I'm glad I've told Well, listen, I'm really looking forward to it. Dr. Shireen, it has been a pleasure. You've

02:09:13 - 02:09:57

had such a colorful story and you're only you're only just getting started. You're just you're just getting going, right? Um, thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you for having me and I'm so excited to Yeah, we'll we'll do some we'll do some protocols and >> I'm really looking forward to it. You know, the the one thing I my observation of you is you're a great storyteller, but you're great at listening. You're very connected when we're talking and

02:09:34 - 02:10:11

that not a lot of people are. Have you noticed when you meet people quite often they they can't hold eye contact. Sometimes you feel that they they've you've lost them and they've gone off to space. But you're really deeply connected. >> Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me. >> My pleasure.

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