From Disney News, Fox Sports & The UN to Starting Over | Nikki Muller | #87

I had interned at ABC News prime time in 2020 with Diane Sawyer and with some of you know uh Chris Cuomo, all these incredible people. Um my nationality went against me. The only place where my nationality work in favor was the United Nations headquarters in New York City. So boom, got the job. And so I worked at this this center. You'd have Condisa Rice come in and she'd ask me to help her prepare for a speech. The first 6 months were like, "Oh yes, good morning. How can I help you?" Eventually it sunk in. Holy crap, this is my life. David Pock says that a third culture kid does experience more compounded grief in the first 18 years than most people do in their lifetime because of all that change. Mobility doesn't hurt learning. It's unsupported mobility. The loss from the past you have not really processed. Loss creates grief and grief always comes out. To see what success looks like, it it's really understanding how essential it is to go through the entire journey and not skip the tough parts. you're out of a transition successfully when it feels calm knowing that you're moving in a direction that you can confidently say is you. That is who you've always meant to become. For me, the biggest transition of all was coming to Switzerland to begin again without a real plan. I suffered from executive dysfunction, which meant I couldn't do basic things. That's transition stress. I left the car running for over 24 hours. I said, "But come on. I've done this so many times. What's going on?" But the stakes were higher and also >> welcome. How are you? >> I'm excited to be here with you, Paul. Means the world. I love your show and I can't believe I'm on it. So, thank you so much for the opportunity. >> Thank you. I'm blessed. Welcome. Um, how are things in Zurich? Looks sunny behind you. >> Zurich is beautiful. This is the first time in 15 years that I'm experiencing seasons. And it made me realize how much I've missed it and how much people actually need to be around seasons just to sense time moving on. You know, there's this natural time for reflection and introspection, a time for action. We've just got spring that's uh officially sprung. So, yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm very very happy to be here. >> You know what? Having grown up in England and Ireland, when I moved to Singapore, of course, I I wanted the heat, but you're right. The the lack the lack of seasons, it feels like groundhog, right? >> That's exactly how I describe it. And I think I didn't realize how fast my life was moving and how because it's always go time in Singapore. When the seasons don't change and every day is hot, every time is action, right? So, you you kind the year just rolls by and you're always on this high operating mode. And then when you come to some place with seasons again, you're like, "Huh, you can slow down. It is okay." So, yeah, I did miss it. >> You know what? Before I get you to introduce yourself, you want to crack up. So, I was in Hong Kong a few weeks ago and it and I checked the weather. I was meant to be cool and I was there for four nights. I brought four jackets and and I got there, it was actually a bit hot, but I thought to myself, you know what? I'm going to wear every single jacket just just cuz I miss wearing a coat. >> Is that crazy? >> So funny. It's not crazy. But I'm gonna bring that up because my husband always says, you know, I think the only reason my wife wants to move to Switzerland so she can have like fall wear, winter wear, spring wear. I was like, no, mate. That's you. Don't even. So, no, it's not weird. I get it. >> You get it right. So, for for the few people the very few people that may not know you, especially in in Asia, can you be kind enough to give a quick intro before we turn back the pages in time and get to know Nickima? Sure thing. So, I'm the kind of girl that's embraced the nonlinear career. And I'm very blessed because I've had parents who always said, "Nikki, do what you love and the money will follow." And when you tell a kid that and you're blessed enough to have that opportunity where your parents say, "Hey, just go for it. Go all in and see where it sticks. Uh where it sticks, sorry." You know, it's an incredible feeling. So, I was 15 years old when I first got my taste for television. Uh hosting MTV at embassy uh across Asia. So 15 years old, you're on MTV. That's such a big deal. It was such a cool opportunity. And I fell into that by accident by standing outside of my high school gates. And there was this MTV crew that wanted to interview students about Men in Black, the original. Okay. >> The original about what we thought about this this film. And I was there with two buddies who were still very close to me. And I I just naturally I suppose I interviewed them. So I never answered the question. I just interviewed them. And the director, Monty, who's still a friend to this day, said, "Well, there's something in this. Would you be open to a job?" I was like, "I'm 15. TV? Are you kidding? Let's go." Um, and that was my first taste. So, I I stuck with television for a while. Disney Channel was was a great job. Probably the coolest gig I've ever had. And that was at 17 years old. Um, and then I really wanted to take it more seriously. So, I studied broadcast journalism in the States and and tried tried it on over there, but it was not the time. This was where no one was hiring foreigners in major networks. Was something to do with the Patriot Act. It was, you know, was post 911. Um, and yeah, eventually I I dipped my toes into theater and I think we have that in common, our love for theater, right, in Singapore. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to to be on stage and and and I always felt like such an imposttor because I never took it up professionally or in school. And and just to be given a seat at the table was amazing. And and you know, it feeds the spirit. It doesn't feed the pocket. I could only do like one a year if I was really really lucky cuz you need to be super present. Yeah. And it's so hard to have side gigs when when when you need to be present for that. Most people have to, of course, to survive. Um and then down the line, I was with Fox Sports, so live TV is really what what lights me up. You know, I want the pressure of having to deliver in a certain time frame, having someone talk into my ear, having to adapt when they say, "Nikki, I need you to delay for 40 minutes and you're like, "Let's go. Let's go. What can we do?" Right? So, I love that environment. Um, and eventually the majority of my work, I'd say, at least for the past 10 years, has been more on on conference hosting and moderating. And that's been an amazing classroom because you're up there, you're with leaders, you're with decision makers, whether it be in an industry like finance or healthcare or tech or inclusivity in the workplace. Like it I'm just a sponge. I'm there. I'm listening. I'm observing human behavior. I'm writing down notes. I'm seeing the inflection points on where these different businesses align. I'm getting paid to learn. Uh which was really, really incredible. And I did that for a while. and I still do some of that with some of my big big clients that I love to work with. But I have scaled back significantly since moving to Switzerland. That was a conscious decision. I knew it was time for a new career shift yet again. But I needed that downtime, slow down, um, head down and really start to understand what was happening with me. How am I changing? Why is it that something that you're potentially pretty good at and and getting recognized for doesn't quite fit the bill anymore? And that's where I'm at now, exploring life transitions. So that's how I got here. >> I you know what you you are firstly you're a Renaissance school and I I want >> like you Paul just like you. That's your deal. >> That's Well, it is. And it's but it's curious because actually I wanted to ask you are you an introvert, extrovert or ambbervert? >> I would say ambbervert. Is an extroverted introvert a thing? >> It is now now that you've mentioned it. >> Yes. Because I think we're similar in the sense that if you are people facing, which means you are managing, harnessing energy, balancing energy, you're dealing with a lot of people in a room and they're having a bad day or they're having all sorts of different feelings and emotions, their headsp space is different, you actually feel that and you have to bring that entire room together on a journey. Um, and so by the time that ends, you know, your cortisol spike is still through the roof. It takes you three hours just to come down from that experience and maybe a couple of days to recover before you can get back on the road. Right. So that time for reflection and quiet is essential for me. I imagine it's for you too after a big gig or a big conversation or a big workshop. >> Yeah. I have to reset. And it and it's funny because anyone that knows me, professional person, unless you're, you know, like you my wife, my kids, they won't believe this. I'm an absolute introvert, right? And uh I need my quiet time. And you know we were talking earlier when I was in Dubai. I had like seven or eight meeting in the day and I brought for the first time with me my media guy right so he newly joined me and I said I need to go and lie down sleep for 20 minutes please don't interrupt me and he said you you actually I said I just need to go and recuperate and you know because it's just it just takes so much I need quiet I need silence. So my gift is I go for walks every day you know about it would be a run and I'll bring my phone. Oh, how beautiful and how lucky. My mommy. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's just lovely. Do you know what I mean? So, how do you how do you recharging? Because when you're doing those big gigs and you have to be on you >> Yeah. full on and it's like a week or more. Um Yeah. Because a lot of these conferences are back to back. >> Yeah. So, how do you like recharge the battery? >> Oh, same thing. Um well, now that I'm in Switzerland, I'm just really grateful. I live next to an orchard. There's a bunch of beautiful sheep and cows here. I see the lake. I see the Alps. I've got forests behind me. It there's just a significant incline of a hill right here. So, if you're going to walk, you're going to have to work for it. And that's a good thing. It's good for my waistline. It's good for my heart. And uh with a with a new puppy, you have to walk, right? So, I'm very lucky in the sense that even if I'm not feeling up to it, I'm being forced to be in nature and to breathe fresh air and I'm not sweating buckets the way I usually would if I walked out the door and J chat and did my thing in Singapore. >> Yeah. So, there's that for sure. and and you know the though I'm still doing some of the MC and gigs again for clients that I really love and for for topics I'm really passionate about I'm still lucky in the sense that I can fly back to Zurich and I can come here and you know I'm only 30 minutes from the downtown Zurich but here it's really quiet it's very slow living it's very intentional living it's really communitydriven and very quickly you can reset so I'm lucky in the sense that I can go back to somewhere quite quiet and not have a lot of distraction around me. Uh I didn't always have that opportunity. I was in the thick of a city. Um but yeah, you close the door, you turn on your air con, and and and if no one bothers you for a couple hours, it's awesome. >> You know what? I've not been back to Ireland where my mom and dad retired to since my mom died a couple of years ago, and I went back for a funeral. And you know, I have this yearning to go back to Ireland, even though I primarily grew up in the UK. And and now that you mention it, it kind of now I know why. I never thought of it before cuz I lived in London so it's hustle and bustle, right? It's not relaxing. But my mom and dad lived in a country village. 1400 people I may add. They had 14 pubs in the village. That's >> Oh, that's my kind of jam. >> 14 pubs for 14 100 people, including the elderly and children, which is kind of crazy. But my mom had, you know, sheep for neighbors and, you know, you had road roaming hills and it was, you know, I miss all that. Um, talk to me about what gave you the the compelling notion and the confidence to make career switches because if you go all the way back to when you moved to the US, a lot of people may not know this about you. You you worked in the UN, right? >> Yes. >> And >> Oh, I totally forgot that chapter in my story. >> Well, well, let's start. Should we start there or with Diane Sawyer? Where we going to start? >> Oh. Oh, how interesting. No, we we'll talk about the UN because that seems like a jump cut to many people. And thank you for reminding me that I have embraced a long nonlinear career by acting as an international civil servant for a few years. And that was um a really important time. But to be honest, I fell into that job, which I was very grateful for, out of necessity because again, in the United States, there was this sort of new policy for for all of the big major networks, CNN, ABC, all the big ones you'd want to work for, um, that they couldn't hire foreigners anymore. And that was devastating for me because I I felt like I was ready, you know, everyone wants to move to America, the biggest market in the world, and take this job seriously. And I was really trained for it. I went to one of the top journalism schools in the world for it. And then there are all my American peers getting getting reporter jobs and anchor jobs across the country. Um, and I had interned at ABC News Prime Time in 2020 with Diane Sawyer and with some of, you know, uh, Chris Cuomo, all these incredible people. Um, and and met some great producers who were so kind and really helped me out and said, "Hey, if if you're looking for a producing job, maybe we could help you out." But then my nationality went against me, which tends to happen. And for me, this is the first time in my life I'm living in the country where the it matches my passport, right? So, and I'm 40. It took me a long time. So, I know what it's like to have to deal with status and and can you get this job, can you not? Um, and the only place where my nationality work in favor was the United Nations headquarters in New York City because there's a quota for how many Swiss they need. meaning if a country is contributing a certain amount every year to the UN organization then you need to supplement that by hiring people of that country and they didn't have enough Swiss so boom got the job and it was it was very cool at the start why wouldn't it be right you're in your early 20s it's very prestigious you're not paying US taxes you're paying UN taxes you get diplomatic immunity not that I needed it I hadn't broken any laws at the time um yes and and it was Great. Like the general assembly, which is when you get these world leaders to descend into New York City for three months of the year between September and November. That's the most exciting time. Everyone feels really fired up when you when you know that key decision makers are coming together to to discuss slashargue about money and policy and all of that. And so I worked at this this center which was what did they call it? It was some kind of support center. I can't remember the exact name, but you know, you'd have Condisa Rice come in and she'd ask me to help her prepare for a speech and I'm like, "Okay, what research do you need?" Or people would just come and ask for regular IT support and you do your best. I was sitting having a cigarette across Mahmud Abas, which was very unusual because he just sat there staring at me and saying nothing and I wanted to exit stage left right away. I was like, "Oh, just another day at the UN." Yeah. Wow. >> Or or Hamid Karzai, right before he goes in to make his speech, he he looks at me, he's like, "How do I look? Does does this work?" I was like, "That's such a loaded question." Um, yes, you look fine. You know, it's all of these little moments, but that's three months of the year, Paul. The rest of the year, you are starkly reminded of who you are and what your job is and what your position is. And of course, you're starting off. It's admin. And I did my best. And honestly, I felt like I was playing a role like I was in theater. And I used to love it. The first six months were like, "Oh yes, good morning. How can I help you?" Eventually, it sunk in. Holy crap, this is my life. And I look back that, "Oh my god, I was working at Disney. I got nominated for an Asian television award. I just came out of a great school and my friends are now at CNBC and here I am." I said, "There's nothing wrong with that job." And kudos to anyone who does it, but it just didn't feel aligned to where I thought I was going to go and where where I was meant to be. So, I felt myself really atrophying and and it showed because I'm an emotional eater, right? That was the first time I really gained massive weight. We're talking 40 kilos in just two years, maybe more. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, emotional eaters, we eat our feelings, right? So if something is strenuous or we want to deny what feels uncomfortable, we eat for that instant gratification and dopamine hit and then the guilt will set in and you'll do it all over again. So I'd cover my mirrors. >> You're one of those. >> Me and my wife are those. Yeah. It's hard, right? But we and the problem is is is we we we're meant to encourage each other not to eat, but it goes the other way. >> Yeah. We can enable each other, right, for the positive or the negative. It happens. And you know, you just you pat yourself on your back, say, "You did the best you can. Tomorrow's another day. Let's do our best." >> What was your inflection point where you you said, "Hey, I'm going to buckle off. I've got to switch jobs out." >> I'm very lucky that there have been two major inflection points of when I knew that what I was doing was didn't feel right or wasn't right for me. And I would deny the signals for until it was too much. And in this case, it was two years of denying the signals, right? Covering the mirrors because I didn't know how I looked like. I'm living in one of the most vibrant cities in the world. I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. I was such a good customer of Pink Berry frozen yogurt that they delivered to me in a snowstorm in the midst of a massive nor easter. They were like, "We're going to walk to this person's apartment cuz she's one of our best customers for extra-L large fro yo." That's when I, you know, I was like, "Oo, something's up. Something's really up." And I was very lucky. I was in a relationship at at the time with someone who was so not judgmental, really there for me, allowed me to experience this and uncover it on my own. But there was a moment I was in a cab, Time Square, terrible place. I mean, in the sense that, you know, from the UN, it's 12th Avenue and I lived all the way across that uh across town on 1 Avenue and you have to go through Time Square. Um, all of a sudden the light turned green and that was it. I knew all of a sudden I knew exactly what I needed to do. I needed to quit. I needed to lose weight and get my fitness back. I needed to move back to Singapore where I had worked before in television and I was going to hustle my way through. And it it was crazy because this was in the middle of one of the biggest, you know, global financial crises. This is 2000 from 2008 to 2011. >> And I gave up a job that was potentially a job for life. So if you if you're sitting on a permanent post, that means that unless something's completely wrong with you, you got that for life. If you keep the gig, you're locked in. So you're So I walked away from job security in the middle of a financial crisis with two suitcases, no job, and nowhere to live. And just this feeling of this is right. And you have to trust those moments, I think. And and I think for you having worn many hats and tried many things, you must have had inflection points that you could feel or like you can vividly remember. >> The interesting thing is is now you know given what my job is, I I try and help a lot of people navigate those and there's for me it's been you know I've had a lovehate relationship with recruitment and >> with recruitment. Yeah. >> Yeah. you know, for 31 years and I kind of analyzed why and and you know, I I thought cuz I didn't feel that I was being valued. You know, 31 years I've been involved in a lot of placements and um only two people have ever said a handwritten note as a thank you note and a gift, right? >> Only two times. >> Yeah. And I and I take a great deal of care with people and I care about people and then I realized what it was is like we are the real estate agent showing somebody a property but they don't know what goes into it. And then that's when I that was probably the genesis of my coaching business because I realized if I'm in someone's corner and ironically when the the individuals getting me to they're paying me >> and I was helping them then it's a very different relationship. But but for me what what I've realized is is as I got older anyway, you've got to listen to your gut. And now that and I'm so curious about your journey because I've brought three kids, you know, and they're hoping to go and study and ideally abroad. So if if it's okay, I want to ask you how did you decide to go to Emerson? How did you decide to go to the US? Unpack that. Like you did you sit down with your parents and have a chat with them? >> Um so I grew up a third culture kid, right? And so traditionally that that would mean that you spend the majority of your developmental years living outside your parents' passport countries, right? And so historically these were kids. they were either military brats you'd call them or the children of diplomats, missionaries, teachers, foreign service workers, right? And so this this was a whole area of study as well since the 50s, which I didn't know until a few few years ago. Um, and so what's unique about growing up like that is that you spend your developmental years when you have yet to form your identity. That's when you're being uprooted and disrupted. That's where the loss and grief is compounded. you're saying goodbye to people, places, friendships. Um, so there's compounded grief at the time where identity is still forming. And the reason that's important is for people who grew up in a monoculture in in one place or at least in maybe one city or one country, um, the things that create identity, these anchors are are community, right? So, you know that that person's still going to be there, your friends are the same. You know, the schools aren't too far away from each other. Maybe it's the the teams that you're a part of or the church that you go to. they all form identity for a child at the time that's so so crucial. So if that keeps changing if those anchors keep changing um that becomes a gift a really enriching upbringing because you have this worldview and this inbuilt global mindset and and empathy and cultural empathy but it's also really hard or I should say and it's also really hard. So the idea of going to Emerson was just another chapter in this journey of disruption of having moved around a lot so much anyway, right? So I was blessed having lived in these different countries and at the time when you were studying and you you know if you figured out what you wanted to do, you looked at the best schools that would take you there and it wasn't Ivy League, right? Ivy League is not the best for broadcast journalism. So I looked up and it said, "Okay, well this is Emerson is where you go when you know what you want to do." And I took time off before uni to work full-time at Disney Channel to understand one the value of money and the value of hard work and also cheers. And you did that too. You have hustled my friend. You have you have tried so many different avenues as well and I respect that. Um and I'm really glad that my parents let me do that because you know what? I didn't even tell them I was auditioning because I figured my parents would never say yes to working before university and I I really didn't give them credit. Right. So, I I went to like two or three auditions in Manila, Philippines, where I was living at the time, until they said, "You've made it to the final round. It's in Singapore." Wasn't quite sure how I was going to get out of the country and be back in time for dinner or pay for that. Um, so eventually I told them and they said, "Absolutely. We love the idea of you exploring something you're interested in and if it works, it does. If not, um, you'll try something else, go to school." But they said, "Promise you will go to university." I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And one year turned into two and they said, "Okay, now's the time, mate." Like you, you know, you know, you want to explore broadcast journalism a little bit more in depth and go into news and producing and broadcasting. So Emerson was the natural proclivity. I mean, I mean, Max Mutchnik, I mean, founder of MTV, um, God, so many how is that all Larry David, >> uh, Seinfeld. >> Yeah. >> Uh, these are all the people who who who went to Emerson. The coolest thing was, you know who my professor was in my third year? >> Uh Kevin Bright, the executive producer and director of Friends. >> Wow. >> That's what happens at Emerson. It is very small. Like we've got 9 to 13 people in class. That's amazing. >> Did you feel culturally you fit into the US based on you know your personality and uh your voom? You must have done. The US was great in terms of finding my voice and really gaining confidence, but I was acutely aware maybe for the first time that I was different, that I grew up differently, you know, and and and third culture kids tend to edit parts of their lives and what they will um what they will make known to others about their past and how they lived based on how palatable that might be and whether or not they're going to think that's too much or too different. >> Yeah. Um and I did notice that for in the beginning I felt oh wow they most of these folks if there you know the international kids are from Canada which is not that far away from Boston. >> I went and there's nothing wrong with that but it's it's very similar right North America and and then when I would explain how I lived they they would actually think it's very cool but they couldn't understand it and that was fine. I thought I thought I was really myself and they were very curious and I you know I made some of my best friends in college who I'm still friends with today and they didn't grow up grow up the same way I did but they had a curiosity and an empathy for it as well. You know, we were when we last spoke, I was telling you that I didn't know what Eurasian was as the term until I moved to Singapore. And and since I've met a lot of friends that are Eurasian, but the funny thing is is nearly all of them, including my my my dear friend Mark, who's worked with me for 10 years, he's based between Hong Kong and Thailand, and uh he's meant to like us, and he they all wanted to be Caucasian. And I I didn't get that. I said, "Why?" And they said, "Well, they wanted to fit in like if they grew up." Yeah. >> And you know they were they were different and I I was a bit different from that because I always knew myself and um you know I always felt I don't know I you know personalitywise I'm I'm more Irish and British definitely more Irish right my my dad's influence was big there but I look more Chinese and everyone and if people see you as being something then you identify with that right and yes and I had this thing where all Chinese guys were wimps they were you know your mom and dad worked at a fish and chip shop or a Chinese takeer or a campsy firm and I I thought I was going to change that narrative. I thought I'm going to be a bad ass, you know, I'm going to be tough and but I just I found it so interesting. And then what I when I moved to the US, I was an adult. What I realized was the thing I loved about the US, which is different from the UK is if if you want to win, you go out and you strive to be successful, that's okay, right? and and uh people will appreciate you and you can see someone across the street and they're doing well and you said I I want to be by that person and and everyone's ra in fact it's a little bit too amped up like everyone you feel like everyone's on steroids uh but I but I listen I love the US so I do think that people that have gone to university have worked in the US especially in their early 20s they're built differently especially New York right they're built differently they're they're articulate they've got sharp elbows if they need to have I don't know if that is your observation as well. >> Oh, absolutely. I think if you're if if you're hungry and you want opportunity and you want variety, the you the USA will give you that. But you've got to work for it. And it's certainly not going to be easy. And and the more times you're knocked down, the thicker your skin and and and when you find your tribe, which you really can in a place so diverse and eclectic like the USA, uh you can you can actually do really hard things. Um and I do miss that to be honest. I look back, I go, how different would my life had look have looked like if I had stayed in the USA and if I wasn't Swiss at the time or if I had taken up my ex-boyfriend's offer to marry him for a green card. How different would it have been? That sliding doors moment. What if I did get that job at ABC News as a result of being at least able to be a permanent resident and work there? Um, I will always regret not knowing what that was like. I was so excited, you know, to to have the to have a fighting chance to be with everyone to try and and get to wherever you could get. Um, and I do I still miss the US very much, specifically the East Coast. Uh, I just think it's so beautiful and people are so warm and lots of Irish, of course, and Boston and and that's just the best, you know. I I I do miss that. >> You find I think I think, you know, being a third culture kid, wherever you lay your hat, you learn to call home. like that Paul Young song, right? >> But but you know, we're gonna come on to when talk about transitions and things like that, but >> talk a little bit about your experience with crosscultural upbringing because like I told you when I moved to Singapore, I had reverse racism because I didn't speak Mandarin, >> you know. So, but I'm just curious because we have a lot of things in common here. What was your >> Yes, we do. Um, I think, yeah, being mixed race, you have that added layer of complexity, of course, with that cross-cultural upbringing. Even if I grew up in in in a monoculture, right? If I stayed in the same town, um, you would still feel different and otherred in some way. Some people will say hurtful things or um, some people will will say things sublimly and subconsciously without meaning to hurt you. So, for me, I'm half Swiss, half Filipino. I've spent significant time in the Philippines, high school and afterwards and even a little bit of my younger childhood. But even within my own family, I can tell I'm different. You'd go to the big family reunions, they look at you differently. They expect crazy things to come from someone who is different or who has lived differently as well. Um, so I never really felt even part of my own family in the Philippines. And it's not that they they meant any malice or anything like that, but I was always acutely aware that I was half white, that um that my dad was Swiss and that I was different from my cousins and that I um and the fact that my parents chose to to bring me up in different parts of the world was was left field for anyone in that family. So within your own family, not really being completely accepted, even if they don't mean it. you know, the othering happens in many different ways that I don't think it was hard when you were a kid. You because you don't know any other way. It's later on in life when you start to unpack that, right? So, I know for third culture kids, it's between the age of 35 and 40 they start to really feel something's up. It's the compounded elements of all of this. And and for me, that's when I started to investigate that, right? The um it was mixed race. It was having lived in different places in Switzerland. I mean, come on. I mean, I look I don't look Swiss, right? People are shocked when I speak Swiss German. >> Um, but they're happy, right? They get really confused because my grammar might be off since I've never really taken it up um at school, but the accent is so on point. They're like, "What's going on? It's broken, but it sounds perfect." Right? So, I'm I'm acutely aware that wherever I go, you'll be that other person. And so for third culture kids, we find our sense of belonging in people rather than places. People who have had shared common experiences can understand that language and those feelings even if we haven't lived in the same place. And that's what the third culture is about. It's not about living in a third country outside of your parents. It's it's that other group, that other place that's safe for all of us. That's the one place we can belong. And that's where you and I belong in many ways, right? And that's why you and I get on like this because we've got some of those shared experiences, right, of not being from here, not being from there, belonging everywhere and nowhere at once and owning it as well, right? Because you you can't rectify it. >> You can't. And I I find it's it's interesting because what I try to do is I I insert myself into everything. So your bar I like I I don't go out drinking that much these days, but I was just thinking this this morning cuz someone was sending some pictures. the last three bars I've been in, don't ask me how, I have ended up behind the bar serving drinks, pouring Guinnesses, doing shots, you know, and just making myself partner. And what I realize is that's all you have to do. And one of the wonderful things is when I go back to Ireland, um, one of my cousins husbands, his name is Neil, he's a lovely man, he always says this to me, goes, "Welcome home." >> And and and it just it just means beautiful. >> It just means so much. And so I come from this amazing group of women and my auntie Breida is the only um one alive of of my dad's siblings. My dad's passed. All all the girls are dead. He was the only boy. And uh I always say she's a little bit like the godfather. Like she like Don Cordone. So her her two daughters husbands are they're secretly terrified of her. They love her but they're terrified of her. And um yeah, I think I think I'm her favorite. She still makes me fairy cakes every time I go back like I'm 10 and I love him. Um, but what's really interesting, so these two cousins in particular, they've got Jane's got um two kids and Evan, Isabelle, and then Marissa's got an adopted Chinese daughter and um they are coming to see me, the kids, just the three kids next week and they're going to spend 10 days with us and yeah, so early 20s, late teens, then um Anna who's who's adopted is 16 And I actually said, you know, this will be so meaningful because she'll never be have been surrounded by Chinese people before, right? And and I and I I just I I want to just get her to be immersed in it and to enjoy it. And uh it's But the the other thing I was going to say to you that I love about um being a little bit different is that it it forces you to be unique. So when I look at most of my friends, all my Indian friends have primarily Indian friends. All my Chinese friends have Chinese friends. And I have ear friends in the United Colors of Ben. Right. >> Correct. Yes. Because you have more empathy and more curiosity for people who are not like you, right? You're you're genuinely curious about the human being and not what they look like or where they're from and all of that. Um and so yes. Yes. You tend to have a sort of a broader social circle because you're also more curious about more things and how other people live. For sure. And and yeah, I mean I think you know for mixed race folks who really do look like they're from both of the cultures, they also experience that that hidden immigrant. It's like it's the term is hidden immigrant. You look like us, but then you open your mouth and you don't sound like us. And all of a sudden we're like, "Aha, you're different." Right? And that's that's when the game is up. The jig is up. And then you become aware, okay, they they they're putting me in a box. This is human nature. We want to put people in a box. And if we can't put you in a box, there's a little bit of well uncertainty and then I guess in ter fear, right? We fear something that we we don't understand or recognize. And then the more you open up to them, they're like, "Ah, yes, it trust is earned, I think, right?" And so those little moments like you're at a pub and you want to be a part of the community and you and they realize, "Oh my gosh, this guy's so cool." Yeah. All right. He's different. That's actually what makes him cool, right? because he's a human being who genuinely cares about being being here and and doing their best to assimilate rather than say I'm of this other planet and I shall hang out with the other planeteers. No, you should have friends from absolutely everywhere. >> I know it's so weird cuz I I a few years ago when we were doing two weeks at Ireland with my mom, we doing a tour of Ireland and um my son was about 15 at the time and we went into a bar and I said, you know, you're going to have a cup of panc. to right and passage and um we walked in and I just gave them a hit us they might stare at us cuz we're in a this small village they won't know us and um you know he goes what is that and I said well there might be a little bit of racism towards me cuz he goes really I said don't worry about it you know I'll start talking to people be a bit more relaxed and he never kind of really observed that before right so that was quite fun anyway I digress because I I wanted to ask you this one thing how is it you were at the peak of your career here nor that your career is over yet and you make the decision to really pivot, change, move to Switzerland. What was the starting point cuz that takes an immense amount of courage. So I'm just curious like what was the start of that whole you know consideration? >> Yeah, >> I think the start was 2020 um in my late 30s when I again this trying to understand something was off. I just knew something was off. I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And of course, the world came to a halt with COVID. And that's when I started to explore the third culture kid experience. And and and there's so many different ma major themes that come with growing up in this way. That is loss and grief that is compounded over time. A lot of times you don't get to say goodbye to people and places or uh very little time to say goodbye. There's not a lot of permission to grieve. You're a kid. School's starting so you have to just get on with it, right? homework comes no matter what you're feeling. Um, so I it I was just on this this constant train of change. Um, and I think that came at a cost. I know I was 16 years old when I had a gallstone attack and didn't know why. Um, but David Pollock, who's one of the foremost authorities in the space and does this research, says that a third culture kid does experience more compounded grief in the first 18 years than most people do in their lifetime. Um, Yeah. Yeah, because of all that change. Mobility doesn't hurt learning. It doesn't hurt your experience. It's unsupported mobility. That's what I'm learning and that's what I've been studying. It's like aha. So, how do you support those transitions? Transitions actually happens to be a major topic in the third culture kid space. Um, so I just started reading and going, ah, so there are other people like this who are also feeling this way and and and it was really cool. So I started to make all these friends in places and I've never met them physically but we're still very much involved and and even Ruth Vanrian who's very much the godmother one of the pioneers of third culture kid research um you know I meet with her once once a month when uh as a part of this safe passage across networks an amazing organization that's dedicated to supporting transitions for international schools. So parents, teachers, students, so that you can leave well and grieve well if you're going to give yourself a fighting chance at a real new beginning. So supporting that and being able to have language for it. Um I started to I mean I there was so much crying. I was reading this book. It was like page three, third culture kids page three on a plane and I've got ugly cry. It won't stop. Everyone's looking and I'm like >> did you just relate to it? Did you did it really connect with you? Wow. I felt seen, heard, and valued for the first time. And I was like, "So that's what what's been happening." And then I would say maybe 10 days later, I hosted the centennial of um my high school, international school, Manila. And this auditorium was filled with mostly people I'd never met. These are all different cohorts from like the 70s, 80s, 90s, some from my own year. The the oldest graduate, she came up on stage, I think she had graduated in the late 40s. There was this palpable energy that I hadn't felt in such a long time or maybe ever. People were so happy. We most of them never graduated from that campus. This was a relatively new campus. I was the first uh batch to graduate from that campus. So they didn't have any affinity or connection with the hallways or or the lockers, nothing like that. But they there was this camaraderie and I was like, I haven't felt that camaraderie in a very long time or ever. And then we were on the stage and everyone had to sing this this anthem that had been created for the centennial. And there was a line there that said, "This is where I belong. This is home." >> Yeah. >> Again, I was like, "Oh, girl, you're not going to cry on stage. Do not do not." >> Boom. >> Yes. It is it a room full of what is it? A sea of strangers. And yet we were all connected by something. And I said, "There's something up here. Let's investigate. Let's see what this is about." But I think a a real inflection point is and a lot of people go through this. It's a type of developmental transition and it happens in in several parts of our lives but specifically two times. The first is your adolescence, right? >> So you grow up one way and your parents tell you what they know is best. Um and you follow rules and then you kind of reach those teenage years where you're pushing boundaries a bit. You're having your own thoughts and opinions. You've got curiosity. They say you're rebelling but you're not. you're developing identity and personality, right? That's the difference. You're becoming a human being. Um, and it happens again in your in your mid in sort of midlife, right? In your 40s and and you you get that kind of gnawing feeling of >> everything looks great on the outside. I take all the boxes. It's pretty successful. I'm sure I'm sure lucky to have a job, especially in this financial climate and geopolitical situation, >> but something's up, >> right? And you must see this and hear this all the time in your career coaching. It's when we start to go, but okay, I'm changing. I know I should be grateful, but I feel like there's something else. What if there's something more? And it's not that we lack the courage to make a change. We just don't know what that change is yet. And that's a transition that we need support in. And that's why people go to you, Paul, as well. Um, and that was what was going on because I was on I was on stage. I was introducing Mark Carney at the time. Again, I was learning so much. This is so awesome. As soon as I introduced him, I ran to the bathroom and I cried. >> And I said, "What's wrong with me? I got it good. I've got it really good. What's wrong?" And my manager at the time was there and I said to her, I said, "I don't think I can do this anymore." And she go and she just looked shocked. I said, "But I don't know what else to do." You know, and that's that's when I knew I said, "You have to give yourself time." Um, and and sometimes the voice just gets louder and louder that you can't ignore it anymore. And my gut, the same gut that you know you need to trust, said, "Witzerland, you want to know what it's like to have roots in a place that you're from, to connect with your Swiss heritage, even if my grandmother, my Swiss grandmother isn't here anymore, and I miss her to bits cuz she was my best friend." Um, there's something there. Even if it's not my forever home, it is definitely a place of transformation and discovery. Switzerland will give you that with the seasons, with the pause, with the quiet. Um, and that's Yeah. And so I made the decision to come over. >> It's full circle in so many ways for you because obviously you have a school's passport. Your dad was a private banker, right? And you're the heart of private banking or you know, and it's like you're it's it's so interesting, but you know, one of the things that um, and I think you can speak about this that most people don't understand when you're leaving a career, it's like when sometimes when you're leaving a property that you grew up in, there's a there's a grieving process. you almost need to take, you know, like I spoke to a couple of people recently that were made redundant. And they wanted to go for interviews. And I said, I don't think you should go for interviews yet. And they said, why? I said because there's an element of bitterness. You've been in the bank for 15 years. They just made you redundant. You you're upset. It's not going to come across well. You only get one shot of this. >> Yeah. And and actually one of the guys got a bit pissed off with me. And you know, he said, "No, I'm fine." And I said, "Mate, you're not fine. And right now, I'm telling you, if you have a meeting, it's going to backfire." There you go. Yeah. >> He had a meeting. >> It didn't go well and and he said I you know you're you're right. And I just said why don't we just catch up? We'll have a glass of whiskey maybe a couple. And uh and then and then he was spitting bullets and I just said give it a while. So you know like so for example some of the people I work with you know they made redundant or they're fired. They want to write something on LinkedIn. I said no sleep on it. Take the weekend. go on holiday because you're writing something for the people or the organization that you're leaving, but now you got to think about resetting for what's next, right? And you and I know that that pause, that moment, right? But speak on that cuz that grieving post cuz for you like I can't even imagine when you're really at the top of your game, you know, I can't you know, I've observed you for years like really what you've accomplished, what you were doing to to to press pause on that and then reset that that's got to be a big thing, right? Yeah, it is a big thing and you've really hit the hit the nail on the head there and I think it's that awareness of the past five years of really being aware that transition starts with an ending and ends with a beginning and there is sort of a natural journey to that right so there's an ending which comes with loss and grief and most people will skip that part they will rush the middle part that William Bridges calls the neutral zone and that is the scariest part the most frustrating tumultuous part where you vacasillate between feeling okay to feeling like a complete imposttor and you lose your confidence. You don't know which way is up and a lot of the stuff that you have parked in the past comes up because every loss and every ending, right, and losing a role is a type of death. This is your identity. This is who you um this is who you are. You spend the majority of your life working and you give yourself to an organization and they say, "Thank you very much. Here's the door." That is going to bring up a lot, right? and and one loss that you experience in that moment activates all the losses of the past. This is actually why transition gets harder with age and not easier no matter how many times you have done it. And it's the if the loss from the past you have not really processed because I'm that was my emmo was like let's park it in the closet until it explodes. That is how I survived right and people say I'm compartmentalizing I need to compartmentalize for my family. Sure, up to a point. >> But but loss creates grief and grief always comes out. And that's what I was explaining earlier was what I was feeling and why why I was crying for no reason when I'm introducing Mark Carney is because the buck had stopped. >> There was no more running. There was no more hiding. And you need to go through it. Some people and here's and that's the thing, right? So the difference between change and transition is change is an event. Losing your job, starting a new job or maybe losing a loved one. So it's external >> transition is what's happening and you know this very well internally. It's that because our psychological and emotional selves takes way more time to catch up. And there's this beautiful quote by a Dutch gentleman who said that the the body arrives on on horse or by horse and the soul arrives on foot. We take time. So if you want this busy bee feeling of okay game over that job ended because of course the stakes are higher in your in your midlife or in mid-career the stakes are higher you might have a mortgage you might have family parents you need to take care of a whole bunch of responsibilities you may not have had in your 20s where change was not a big deal or not as big a deal all of a sudden there are more there the stakes are higher so of course you want to rush the ending and I think that's that's the problem if you rush the ending it's going to come up later on and And it can come up in that interview and it might sound, you know, you might not say the words, but it's coming from somewhere and that's the feelings we're trying to run away from. Um, and there's only so long you can do that. And if you avoid that sticky middle, and unfortunately it takes as long as it takes. And that hit me like a freaking ton of bricks and I'm studying transitions and this was the worst of my life. >> You're like, "Oh, great. This is fun." >> Um, but you've got to stick through it and you've got to commit to it because that's the sweet spot. That's where transformation comes. That's where you can fully become the person you were meant to be. And that's happening naturally. The more you resist that, the longer it's going to take to really get to that exciting new stage of your life. >> That that intersection is really where that's that's what I called shadow work. That's where it really happen. >> Of course, cuz you're a boxer. >> Yeah. >> I love that. >> But I was going to ask you um I was just wondering whether I'm going to to Switzen's also because you're such a you're you're a well-known public figure. So surely, you know, the difference between doing your job and being who you are near the wife, like you probably couldn't even go, you know, an afternoon shopping without people waving at you is that must have been tiring. And getting away from that, doesn't that help? >> You know what? Because as an only child, I love being around people. None of that bothered me. In fact, you know, if it ever happened, I thought, "Oh, how cool. They watched my show." And we'd end up saying, "Oh, we'd end up talking about what they liked or I get to know them as a person, right?" and you you say thank you and then you show genuine curiosity about them. So it's you know you kind of almost deflect from it being about you. >> Um yeah, so that that didn't really bother me and it wasn't like a a mega thing. You know, Singapore is is still a relatively respectful and small market. You're not going to get any crazy crazy folks running running up to you or anything like that. But what was cool was traveling around the world and knowing that I had a show called the Food Files that was up in uh Nachio People. So you could be in Ethiopia, you could be in Turkey and and people would recognize that was that was weird. I went how the hell do they know? Ah, and it was a Singapore produced show for Channel 5. >> Amazing >> for Media Corp. Channel 5, you know. So I said, "Oh, that's amaz. That's really cool." Um, but that none of that bothered me. But of course, when you leave all that behind, you have to now, this is the hardest part to answer. Okay. When people now, now I'm here in a new place. What do people want to ask? The first two things that people ask when they meet a new person. What are the first two things do you think? >> What do you think? >> Gosh darn it. Yes. >> Where are you from and what do you do? I'm like, >> how much time you got? >> And it's so exhausting. And I'm like, I've got to come up with a pitch here that's just two sentences so that they can move on because all they want is like at the end of my whole deluge of, oh, I did this and I did that and I used to live here. They're just like, "We just wish you could have said you were in marketing or something." You know, it's like you, you know, you go >> short and sweet, babe. >> Short and sweet, please. >> Um, and so that becomes harder. It's because without context, my life or my career looks weird, >> but it looks weird and sounds weird if you don't actually see that there is a common thread. >> True. >> And yeah, >> very true. Well, I want to I want to talk about that reinvention. But before I forget, don't forget, I need to shout out uh to Mr. John Curry for for initially connecting us because he's a wonderful human being as you know. And you know the the first few times when we were getting to know each other, we went out for dinner and I said, um it's rare that two men go out for dinner I find >> or want to voluntarily. >> Yeah. It's it's it's it's like, you know, like workwise kind of. Um and and and you know, we were having so much fun. I said, "Let's go for a cigar and some whiskey." >> Oh, he would love that. Less cigars now for him, but a bit of whiskey. >> Yeah. So, you know, and and what what I just said was I I just enjoy just talking, you know, listening to each other, hearing his stories, and and actually there are certain people I speak to. I feel like I feel like I'm in Scot and I'm talking to him. you know, I can hear bag pipes in the background. Um, you know, no, but anyway, I just wanted to shift out as he should. >> As he should. I wanted to give a massive shout out to John. >> I I do too. Thank you for saying that. And that's that's really lovely because that's one of the relationships that kind of developed later on or friendships I should say that developed later on in my time in Singapore of which I spent 15 years of my life there. The longest I've lived anywhere cultivating work connections but just friendships that will last forever. And John, I knew off the bat when we were at dinner, we were at Gala, sorry, a fundraiser, right, for Pangdammonium Theater in Singapore and I was hosting the table there and and he had put everyone together and I just thought what a cool cat and his wife son is incredibly unbelievable and and he's so successful, but he hasn't got any heirs. He's just a real human being. And I love that he's still so active and very active in the LGBTQIA plus space. He, you know, he he really brings people together. He he's a a lover of people and uh and you know, good people will meet good people. So, here we are. >> That's true. Well, actually, cuz when we first met and um and uh he told me what his involvement was with Pay the Money. I said, "Well, at the next Galar event, you know, you need to get me a seat and I I want to come and watch it with you." And yeah, and you know, but again, he just he thought at first he thought I was taking a piss. He didn't he didn't believe me because you know >> he didn't know about your theater background or your love for it if I say you know I'm I'm an Xbox I did this that and the other last thing they're going to expect me to say let's go and watch some theater right and um do you know what I mean my wife will never go and watch anything with me so normally if it's I love contemporary plays mainly right and uh so but yeah but anyway we've got he and I have a lot in common let's talk let's talk a little bit about when you look back at your whole proc process or going from presenting if you think about all the different things that you've done. You you're a journalist, you're a presenter, you're a host, you know, do cuz I would imagine you just feel that this is all one big part of the same job description which is Nikki, right? Other people will look at it as different I'm doing because I think everything I do is inextricably linked. But do other people when they view you, do they think you've got five different jobs kind of thing? >> Yeah, I think they do. And to be honest with you, I thought I thought I did too until very recently. I think maybe two months ago. I didn't We are always the last to recognize what's going on in our own lives. We are doomed to always be the last, but such is life. Um I only realized when I I started speaking about it, and you're right, most people will see it as left field, right? Starting talking about life transitions, you know, I went, "Okay, the TCK upbringing was about unsupported transitions. That's why I'm interested in it because I've lived it." and so have 200 million plus people in the world. Then it was so how does this matter in terms of organizations where does this come in and I realized for the past 15 years in Singapore or around the world hosting for MNC's all their big kickoffs all the big decisions new strategy that needs to land I was always observing human behavior that's if someone says what do you do I am an observer of human behavior I've done it from various vantage points center stage sidelines fly on the wall always everyone I've interviewed everyone I've talked to I've always curious about their thought process what what they had to give up actually it's this what did they have to give up to get to where they wanted to be >> that's very interesting way of think >> yeah so I was like I was trying to figure out the l I was like well this is it it's the transitions right anytime that there is a change and we've got so much change fatigue with what's going on in the world right now too much change which means too many transitions that aren't supported compounded over time we're just tired we're just tired of all of that right >> you got to astrance this because the the people that you've got a a ringside seat speaking with, watching, observing, interviewing, talking with, they're the top of their game globally in many different industries. >> That's what's really fascinating. >> That's I mean, like, you know, most people were paid to have that that kind of opportunity. Yeah. >> Cuz you when you've observed some of these people, right, they're all human beings at the end of the day. But what have you observed in terms of brilliance and and courage because all these people have excelled in what they've done, right? You know what have your observations been of these guys? >> The brilliant people. See, brilliant is also relative, right? So, they're successful. They've they've achieved whatever milestone. I find brilliance can just be in your day-to-day uncle down the road who says something incredible and does something amazing. But yeah, they've they've all they've all had to give something up and they've all had to grapple with what you give up in order to commit to something and to do something well, right? Or to do something long term. I think it's that and you do always look at how much support they were given in that time. How much of that were they able to talk about with peers or with people that they cared about? How much of it was validated by other members in their clan or in in their in their group? Um, and yeah, and it's it's remarkable because to do hard things and to do hard things well, you actually need a really solid support system. I think that's something that I noticed they all had. >> Yeah, >> they all had that. They all had someone that they could go to or someone that they could talk to because without that, how can we take risks without the safety, the psychological safety of knowing that I've got a group behind me in my corner? it's really really tough. >> Um especially in in high performance situations, right? So I think I think it's it's that it's um whether it's the same the same pal that they hang out with on a Thursday night or maintaining the friendships with the people that knew you before you blew up in a really big awesome way. >> Um yeah, it's that it's social support. >> Have you read um Malcolm Blabau's book Outliers? >> No, I should. that is on my that is on my list. Um >> because there's there's a pretty >> he's incredible. >> Yeah, there's a few themes, right? So he talks about doing something for 10,000 hours to become excellent that it right and >> so get expert. Yeah, >> you know, so that that makes sense. But one of the other interesting revelations was he was talking about when you're born visav the academic term, right? So for example, in England versus Singapore, you know, you start school in September. So if you're born in September, um you'll be the oldest in the year. Whereas if you're born in September and you go to school in Singapore, you you'll be one of the younger ones. And a few years ago, my son who studied at Rada, not Rada. So no, not Rada. So SOTA Singapore uh theater art school, right? >> What is it called? School of the Arts. And they wanted to hold it back, right? And and I I wrote to him. And I spoke to him, my wife and I spoke to her and I said, "Look, think about this, Caden. This year has grown, I think it was something ridiculous like 14 in is physically, right? He was born in November the 26th. So he's one of the youngest in the year." And and the the guy book basically says, "Well, think about this. If you are physically less mature, mentally less mature, you will not be chosen for the basketball team first. You may not be chosen at all. So you go through your whole school life maybe not being very confident. You're struggling academically because you're not as mature. Your girls will mature faster than boys as we know. So academically you might be behind. So you basically go through school with with not a great impression of who you are. And you know and I said look um you know why is my son been asked to sit at the back of the class? And and they thought he wasn't interested. And I said no. And they sat him in the back of the class cuz he was toilet right. So I just said, "Look, this this is all about engagement." I said, "If if your tutor doesn't think you're interested, they're not going to sit down and speak with you." And but I just found that so interesting because what one of the things I'm most passionate about is being a parent. So I speak to other parents and they we talk about, you know, child. So one of the things I found that the the super elite people I've worked with have struggled with is I believe the time that they give their children. And then the biggest challenge is for those people that are really elite what they've done. It probably puts a certain amount of pressure on kids and they're not at home as often. It's like do you push the kids not push the kids? And it's something that you know the only thing my wife and I argue about is how do we pair the kids and my wife an amazing she's the best mom I've ever met. She's amazing. But I always say you're too soft on the kids because I grew up the hard way and and I I want that balance because I always think like you said like your your parents for you. you you need to earn your money. You need to understand what a dollar is and how you earn it. And it's it's very difficult because if people grow up, you know, comfortable, they may be less motivated. It's it's a yes, it's a balancing act, but that's >> it is such a balancing act because you don't want to cuddle. You want to support, you don't want to cuddle, you also don't want to it's finding that balance of how much stress and how much pressure is just right. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because because the more support, support does not mean handholding. Support means I will support you with whatever you do as long as you are 100% committed to this. And so if you fail, you're going to fail hard and I'm going to be there for you. >> Yeah. >> If you do well, I'm going to be there for you, but I'm not going to walk it with you. >> No, that's you. Right. I mean, there's different schools of thought on that. And I can really appreciate what that balancing act is. And especially with two people. You've got your you've got a wife, you got a mother and father who might in some cases say, "Oh, maybe this is a bit too much." And that's that. But kudos on you for actually going there and having a conversation with this teacher. Because to me, it's the it's the teacher's role to see that outwardly what a student and especially an adolescent um is showing signs of does not reflect their internal state whatsoever. And I know that for me because that's why they said, "How did you have a gallstone attack at 16 years old? You look completely fine." In fact, my teachers at the time who I'm now still in touch with, they go, "Nikki, we had no idea this was going on because you don't you seem okay, right?" Or some people will say even aloof. It doesn't reflect the internal state. >> Think about this, right? I I lost nearly all my hair over about a twoe period when my son was first born. He was in hospital for the first three months and the stress of it, right? And you know, I can see that I was boarding when I got married um before stressor. Yeah, it was well was stressful for my wife, not for me, mate. It all, you know, we we're coming up to 20 years this July and I I I keep >> beautiful. She's going to be Are you going to tell everyone that she might be joining your podcast? >> Yeah. Well, it's like she's >> Well, check this out. I didn't know this. Facebook told me this. I forgot. And the other day it said uh she did a podcast with Tommy Co where she was interviewing Professor Tommy Co six years ago. Actually, she's the OG. She's peace and I thought it was me the whole time and and I said to her, "Listen, you better step up, girl. You know, you're you know, you're you're you're facing off with me now, but she's been doing quite a few podcasts recently." And she said, "Clips." She said, "Please." >> She's ready. No, I I I hope she does come on board. That's going to be an episode no one can miss and it's going to go in every direction. >> You know what I just said to her? I'm not gonna I don't think you should drink alcohol because whenever she drinks alcohol, she remembers, yeah, 20 years ago, this is what you did, right? And it's and what what really upsets me about her is that I'll say, "You're not listening to me." And she can quote what I said verbatim going back maybe 10 minutes or 20 years ago. And I say, "Okay." >> Oh. >> Yeah. That's that's a good point. No, but on but on a serious note, right, what I find really interesting about um when I come into contact with really senior people now that have lived life and experienced life, I I just try to understand and unpack looking back what's important and and because the thing is like I turn 50 next year and I I want to slow it down. I want to enjoy every moment, right? And and learn from, you know, all the wisdom. And when I was younger, I remember when I was 18, there was a kind of work from my mom and he was a bit he was a bit cheeky and I was I was very cheeky to him. My mom said, "You should respect your elders." And I said, "Yeah, he's a bum." And um my my mom said, "You don't realize this, darling, but sometimes just surviving." And I can understand at 18, I didn't think about what depression was. I didn't think about how these things mentally and emotionally can physically manifest cuz it it manifested in your in in your operation. It manifested in my hair loss. Isn't that isn't that something we don't talk about? But men don't talk about at all. Men don't talk about depression at all. And you know, look, you know, for most men, I say to my my male friends, I love you. I say to my kids every day, I love you. I write to them, I love you. But >> and I'm glad that you feel confident to do that and that because that opens up the way for others to be okay with it too. >> I think >> walk the walk, right? >> I think so because you know like my dad you know living memory never said that to me you know I probably said it when I was a kid right he he was he was old school like that but I think I think it's important that that you know we talk about these things. >> Yes. I think so too. And you're so right about the the the more pressure there is just on on a man. So, I know there's a there's a great executive coach in Singapore called Toby Uvy, who used to be a a monk. Um, and and yeah, and now he's sort of head of mindfulness at INSEAD, and he's just a really cool cat. And he actually um he runs uh groups just for men, men's circles. And I think we just need so much more of that. There's a lot that that the pressure, there's a lot of how how, you know, be a good husband, be a good father, be a good employee, be a good team leader. There's so much. Be a good son. Um, and then even, you know, just the the quality of relationships you have as lads, right? It's the sense of familiarity and camaraderie, but it's very rare that this group of people, even if you've known them your whole life, will go deep, I think, especially if you haven't been raised that way to talk about feelings. >> Um, it, you know, it's there might be a pat on the back. Oh, you got this or I'm here for you, man. But that that's it, right? How how open can you really get? And and but the the opportunity is is always there. So I think what you're doing just by just being who you are is you're just opening the path. They might choose to walk towards it, they may not, but the fact that you're doing that I think is the best thing ever. And and and certainly a wonderful um uh example to your kids, >> you know. Um someone asked me cuz my mother-in-law and my wife's auntie asked me, "How do you monetize the podcast?" Said, "Well, I don't yet unfortunately know the these things hopefully will come in time." and and it was almost like why are you doing I said well I've I've learned so much I get the opportunity to speak to so many people but I I'll just tell you I received an email maybe three months ago from a man and he wrote to me he said oh um I've I've been watching your podcasts and I've I've since found out that you do career coaching he didn't know actually I was a head hunter for whatever reason he didn't know that I b he put people in his bank funny enough which just goes and he said I'm going through a really tough time in my marriage I've got two young kids and and I'd love to engage you. And he wrote a few other things and he almost stole out crying and and uh I did a call. I called him straight straight away, you know, within 10 minutes of getting that. And he was a bit take very loud and and and uh we we spoke for about 45 minutes and uh and then I said, I think we're going to become great friends. You know, you know, like you could just tell, >> right? >> That's wonderful. That's wonderful. That's when you know you're doing the right thing, right? even if it is just that one person that you helping people feel seen, heard, and understood. That's what this is about. >> That's what it's about. And it's just it just kindness. And kindness just is is overlooked, right? I just think kindness is is something goes such a long way. And um you know, we've all encountered poisonous people. So I sometimes I get asked, "Do you know this person?" I said, "Well, I don't know. I've heard of them." And they said, "Well, how do you not know them?" But when when I've heard of people that are very poisonous and you hear from me many people, I give them a wide birth because I just I don't know about you, but you know like I feel that I can see or feel vibrations of people. >> Yes, absolutely. Your energy introduces you before you even speak. For sure >> it does. Right. It walks into the room with you before you and you've got you resonate. You're poppy, you know, and I absolutely love it. But I know that that that you know, you probably need to have your quieter times as well. And I want I want to talk about some of the projects you're working on. So you've got a pop podcast launch that's coming up soon, right? About about uh transitions, >> life transitions. Yeah. Yeah. >> Tell us all about that. I'm excited for you. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. So it it seemed like an a natural thing to do if I was studying the topic of life transitions to actually get involved in a podcast. I just didn't think it was the right time, though it really is. Because when you're in the thick of the storm, it's really hard to talk about the storm if you can't see straight. Which is why it's so amazing that I'm working with Dr. Doug Oda, who's a psychologist and transitions expert. And he he was actually the the gentleman who ran the course laws of transitions that I took um a couple years back. And so I was already fangirling him because I said, "My god, this guy's so smart and he totally gets us." And he's got these wonderful science-based frameworks that he's put together that's been accredited by the Council of International Schools. he knows his stuff and I started to see similarities between what he had curated for schools and I said but that can really help within organizations I said there you know it's it's finding the commonalities and then the more he would talk about transitions I went my god but we all go through this right and and for me the biggest transition of all was coming to Switzerland giving up not giving up letting go of of of a huge career and network and friendships that I've created over that period of time to begin again without full without a plan, without a real plan. I just knew I need to be here. Something's going to happen. I'm going to be able to put my head down and research. And the plan was, oh, in 6 months, I'm having it all ready. Nikki 3.0 rebrand uh services and products will be ready by April 2026. And then real life hit. It's like, oh, I am not ready. Oh, this is really hard. Oh, you know, you don't know which way up is up or down when you're in the thick of this. You know, I suffered from executive dysfunction, which meant I couldn't do basic things. It does appear like ADHD. That's transition stress. Um, I left the car running for over 24 hours. That created a massive problem for people in the building. They needed to call ambulances and and and the fire truck. >> I was I couldn't go to the grocery because I would panic because people would move would move so quickly and unpredictably, you see, um, with their carts >> overwhelming. >> I was just to I said, "But come on. and I've done this so many times. What's going on? But the stakes were higher. And also because um interestingly enough, what you learn through this laws of transitions course with Dr. Doug Oda, who's doing this podcast with me, we're calling it safe passage. That's the name of the podcast. What you learn is you learn how to leave well and grieve well. So I was the first time in my life I actually consciously and mindfully prepared to leave for a year. It I was so exhausted by the time I got to to Switzerland. And I was like, "Oh my god, I'm so done with endings." >> But I realized I left really well. But the grieving part happens, of course, once you've left it. You have to you have to not be in it to know what what loss feels like, right? And so I did everything. You know, there's this term we called rafting. Raft build a raft, reconciliation. You say sorry to the people you have hurt in that time and you and you make those apologies. Affirmation. You thank the people who have meant something to you professionally and personally and you tell them why. what why they impacted you and how they impacted you. Um, farewell is a part of it and I threw this I mean it was huge. It was a goodbye concert two nights sold out at a jazz club as my way of saying thank you to Singapore and all the opportunities and friendships. >> Yeah. And it was amazing to see people come out of the woodwork I hadn't seen in over 10 years. I was just like oh. And that was just two days before I turned 40 and had foot surgery. It was like a lot. >> And then and then T in the raft is think. Oh, one second. >> Okay. >> The T in raft is think destination, right? That's when you start put so much energy, time, and emotion to leaving. By the time I arrived in Switzerland, I was so tired. I was spent >> and and also as a third culture kid where you're used to disruption, especially unsupported transitions, disruption is your baseline. This is why I loved the thrill of live TV. It was like, push me to the edge. This is where I feel alive. Let's change things up. >> Yeah, I can only imagine. >> Yeah, there's that restlessness, right? So, if you're disrupt, if disruption is your baseline, folks like us, our work is different. We have to be we have to learn to befriend calm, >> homeostasis, quiet, >> yeah, >> transition. And that was my first time to be confronted with the slowdown because the the overperformer or the high achiever in me was wasn't needed anymore because she took care of that goodbye. She's like, well, there's nothing to do, so I'm going to hang out here until you you need me. And I was like, but where's that part of me that used to get me through the tough? I was like, well, you've done that. So, here comes everything else you haven't dealt with. that inner child, the person who hasn't had a chance to be seen, heard, and understood from all the losses that you parked until now. >> And so, yeah, so that was tough and that's why we did this. >> No, we so I'm so fascinated by it. What does success look like in terms of transitions? Not on paper. Yeah. >> But but in in the body and soul, you know, what do you what do you see register in terms of success there? >> Yeah. So to see what success looks like it it's really understanding the how essential it is to go through the entire journey and not skip the tough parts. That's success comes from not skipping the hard parts, right? I think this is just life in general. Um so Dr. Doug, who we do this podcast with on life transitions, meaning it's not just about being highly mobile, it's anything from divorce to beginning a new career or a cancer diagnosis. um and to understanding the psychology and the science behind that. And it's just really raw, gutsy chats. And I'm really glad he was there because I wasn't telling anyone how hard this was. I was dealing with it alone. You have a natural proclivity when you're in transition to not tell anybody, to keep it to yourself because you most of the time you don't know what the heck's going on. And again, on the outside, it might look like everything's okay. So you don't want to rock the boat on the outside when the inside's already in turmoil. So, I'm really glad I had him there to have chats in the form of recording a podcast once a week throughout this entire time. So, >> therapy, it was therapy for you at the same time. >> It was therapy. It was free therapy and I'm learning. How lucky am I? Right. So, a successful transition. I asked him, I said, "All right, Dr. Doug, this is really hard right now. How do you know when you're out of it?" He goes, "Well, I think you know you're in the middle of trans. You're in the sorry, you're at the start." He says, "I you know you're at the start of a transition when you say,"Nope, I don't want to." >> Yeah. >> You know you're in the middle when you can feel it. You're in the thick of it and you don't know which way is up. >> And when you slowly have a glimmer of, okay, maybe I'll be all right. Maybe I can do this. Then you're somewhere near the halfway mark or past the halfway mark. And to me, I'd say, you know, you're out of a transition successfully when that new beginning is crystal clear. When it feels calm talking about the hard parts, when it feels calm knowing that you're moving in a direction that you can confidently say is you, that is who you have become. That is who you've always meant to become. >> Um, when you feel lighter about it, uh, because in the middle you vacasillate from anger to frustration to confusion and most importantly a lack of confidence. That's how I knew something was up. I am a confident person. I can get things done. That's the resilience and adaptability of how I grew up. But why all of a sudden did couldn't I even read a book? It took me six months to read a book. >> Yeah. >> You know, I it was I couldn't focus, right? >> Um my mojo was totally gone. And so I think what was important and I would advise anyone who's in a big transition is to keep something in your life that you're good at. Even if you're not as a big fan of it anymore of doing that anymore, you keep doing something. Yeah. That you're good at. >> Thank you. Because you have to remind yourself, I'm good at something. I got this. And if I can be good at that, I can be good at something else, too. Cuz that took time. I I wasn't born with this. No one's born with these incredible skills. You have an innate talent, but skills are honed, right? And that's work, and that's discipline. Yeah. Nikki, one of the things uh I think this is really important and if you can touch upon this. So I I interestingly enough about 60% of my career coaching clients at the moment are ladies and I work with some amazing women really truly amazing women. But this is what I've noticed on on average with most women and how they're different from men. If a man faces an obstacle at work and they've never done it before, they're going to >> Yeah, there no worries. You know what I mean? No problem. And most of it will turn around and say, "I'm not sure. I haven't done that before. Maybe I can do it." And you know, I always say, "But look, the problem is if you have a woman who's your boss, who's a cast iron who's had to be better than the men 10x, that may not work." And then if you got if you got a male boss, right, that may not work. And you know, I find it so interesting because the truth is like look at sales people. Women are better salespeople than men are, right? You know, it not it's not >> because it's all driven by emotions. So, you got to be able to feel the feels. >> But what what what would you say about that, right? How do you grapple with leaning into something with confidence and say, "Screw it. I'm going to go all in." Because the thing is your career, you've been on stage, you've been in front of the camera, lied, there was nowhere to hide. But what do you do in that like, you know, the night before, the moment before, what are you saying to yourself to get pumped up? >> Sure. Um, I think in order to to be confident on stage and to be able to freestyle, which is where you want to be so that you're fully present, right? That you're not just there, I memorized my script. I'm going to start with this line. I'm going to end with this line, and I'm going to pause in between. No, no, no. you know, to really be present and therefore be able to be dynamic and change what you're going to say. Be able to freestyle, which is where you want to be. If you want to be an efficient communicator, right, is being able to adapt to the room, to the energy, to the questions, and all of that. You can only do that if you know your if you know your And you know, I I would teach like presenting at SMU and and I was like, "Oh my god, I hope I hope I don't get into trouble." Because that was my number one rule was know your I said day one everybody throw all this performative crap that you have about a notion of presenting it is not a performance you know I say authenticity trumps confidence every single time you can you right I mean there's so many different types of people who who are delivering messages and delivering presentations they're very different personalities but you will lean in if they're genuinely curious genuinely care about what they're talking about the moment you don't care or you don't know your stuff people can tell and what what a shame because Then trust is lost. You've lost the, you know, that's it. No more engagement. Whatever your your great new product is or whatever your new message is, it's not going to land because you've broken trust. So yeah, I prepare and some people say I'm overprepared. No, but that's what allowed me to delay an event for 40 minutes because Samuel L. Jackson had something to do. You know, I was like, okay, here we go. Let's tango. If you don't prepare and you don't have enough stuff in your arsenal that you can go, "Oh, that's related to this topic." If someone brings up a conversation or brings up a point, you're like, "Oh, I've got that in my I've got that in my kit. I I I prepared for that, right? It allows you to be flexible. It allows you to have fun. You should have fun. >> People don't have to listen to you, so you might as well make it interesting." on on your website when you talked about some of the things you do. Uh the one thing that I I wrote down was have fun. You're going to help people have fun cuz you know it's something that people miss like you know I tell you a funny story. So I often get comments from my clients my corporate clients saying thought we're paying you too much. You're going on holiday doing this. You're doing that. And I just said well actually I was working but I backended it with with a with another trip or whatever. And and and I'm convinced. I told my ex business partner last week we we did a podcast and I said to him he goes I really admire that you go on all these trips and I said thanks no but we should all go on these trips and and I said to him are you convinced he puts dollars and cents into your pocket long term so what are you talking about I said the the best ex the best exposure is getting another stamp in your passport right and and when you're going out there and you're doing things and you can talk to people like you and I can talk about things we talked about how expensive it was getting a taxi in Zurich you how you have to eat home more often and this that and the other. Yes. You that I would only know that if I'd been there and and if you travel the world and and all of a sudden just that's what changes things. Um and and I just think that having fun, you know, like I've got this thing in my job description that I hire anyone and it it says f Friday windups and gags and they go, "Oh, what's this?" I said, "We take piss out of each other. We do calls. We pr call people. We do some funny things on Fridays." And >> I love that. They said, >> "I love that. That's a great culture to build. People are going to want to be around you, even if they're like, I don't know what this job is, but I want to be here." >> We got to I said, "Sometimes we write scripts. We go all in. We go all in." >> So fun. >> Got to We got to dis >> I want to work for you. >> You know, >> if I actually were to consider a full-time job, I might work for you. >> I haven't done that in 20 years. >> Can you imagine how much trouble we would do going to a client meeting? I don't know if we would, you know, we would just destroy the place. Now, you've you've sat down with some amazing people, right? E, you know, um, named a few people that really stuck out in your memory because one one of the guys that I recently watched a podcast with was Boris Becker, you know, and you know, he had come out of prison and uh, I just No, but it was s such an interesting story after like how he came out of prison, what it was like. But who name a few that really you look back and wow that was a really cool inspiring. >> Yeah. Um, I will name a few, but I will I'll start with a Boris Becker story. Um, so when I was at Fox Sports, you know, one of the things I would do, I would cover Wimbledon and, you know, there was a studio for Fox Sports Asia at Wimbledon, which was awesome, but I'd be the reporter on the ground, but I wore many hats again. So, I was also producing the long form features, which was hard because you never really have a chance to watch all these matches. And you never know which one of these players will say yes to your request for an interview until lastminute.com. They'll say, "Okay, in five minutes you've got Jookovic." And I'm like, "Okay, I've got to look up what just happened uh on court with Jookovich." Right? So, it's all like really pushing pushing pushing because at the same time, I'm producing a longer feature story that we're going to show uh throughout, right? So, you've got over 200 million viewers in in Asia. And so, before matches, you've got to show them what's the pulse at Wimbledon. Let's tell a little bit of a story, a background story of a player, just come up with some really cool uh angles, etc. And I loved that part. Uh, and of course meeting the players. And I thought, okay, I know that we're going to need before the men's final and the women's final, women's final, we're going to need something really big to show. You know, it's the leadup to the big match. And so I thought for the men's final, Boris Becker. Very rarely will you have a chance to speak to Boris Becker because at the time he was coaching Jookovic and Djokovic was actually out in the third round of the tournament. So I said, "Boris is free. Now is the time. Beg, beg, beg the ATP." And they were amazing. They gave me a shot and they said, "You've got 15 minutes." So, you've got to prepare to get enough gold and enough depth in 15 minutes with Boris Becker. Um, and so I I I called him. I called. So, I think they gave me they must have given me an email and then I put my number there and he never picked up. And I walk into the studio in the midst of all this so many things I'm doing and I'm dying. I'm stressed. I have two pimps cups in my hand. My producers knew, mate, if you want me to do this job, I'm a drink and don't you stop me. Don't you stop me. And it was hilarious cuz our EP was there bringing the sponsors Rolex around. And then they go and that's Nikki. She's our reporter and this is how she works. And I went, "Thanks, guys. Gotta go." So I'm going into the studio and I and someone just says, "Hey, Boris Becker called you." I was like, "What? Boris Becker called me?" They said, "Yeah." He says, "Call him back." Okay, got this. got this. >> So, I'm on the phone with Boris and he says, "Yeah, so I heard you want to interview me tomorrow." I said, "Yes, I I would like to uh Fox Sports Asia. We're the premier uh network that is, you know, that broadcast so many viewers and everyone respects the the game and this is it. This you are going to be featured in the leadup to the men's final. This is prime time." And he goes, "Uh-huh, but how much?" >> Oh. >> And I went, "How much?" And I you're not you don't pay you don't pay for interviews. They give you zero dollars. It's they come on their own valition and you have to pitch the whole oh you know how many people are watching and Asia is a growing market and all of this and that wasn't enough and then I went >> Stefan Edberg Stefan Edber that's one of his arch nemesis on court I said >> I said so Stephan Ed I said I I said I I featured Stefan Edberg for the last final last year he goes Stefan Stefan did it I said yeah he was and I said cuz you were really busy. Djokovic was deep into the tournament. There was no way I could speak to you. >> Think on your feet, right? I was like, there's no way he And he goes, "Well, if Stephan did it, >> I'll give you 15 minutes. Tomorrow, 9:00 a.m. on the lawn." Yep. Ready. Oh my god. >> Hilarious. >> Oh my god. And we got in and it was it was very well viewed. And I mean, come on. It's Becker, the darling of Wimbledon. Right. So, >> um, so that's that's him then. That's I I don't know what they learn. I mean, I learned a lot about his life obviously and his grit and tenacity. But but Boris, let me just chime in. There is two things. So what what one in one of the interviews I saw with him which I thought was really fascinating because they were trying to say who would have been better in their heyday, Jovovic or you? And he said but Jovovic is on another level but >> but he analyzed what he was. They said Jovovic was taking too long to win his points which meant he was playing more on court. So they changed his game to reduce his game time because it meant he was paying multiple hours more going to any final which I thought was fascinating just these small technical things. Well, I'll tell you my own quick funny Boris Mecca story. So I'm I'm in London. I'm waiting to meet a friend and and I hadn't been to the restaurant at the time. I can see no and I'm thinking to myself, is that place where Boris Becker got trouble with a girl in Bernardu, right? And I was thinking, am I smiling to myself? And as I'm I'm chucking to my I'm having a conversation with myself. Isn't that the place? And as I turn like that, who walks past me in a pinstriped suit? Boris Boris Bfield flag by two big black um bodyguards. >> And I said I said, "Hey Boris, I was just thinking about you." He just kept walking. He looked like a vag. But it was so it was just so weird. It was like That's crazy, right? It was just >> Oh. Oh, you are in tune. I mean, that is a coincidence of all coincidences, but yeah, >> that was so mean. >> You be careful what you think. You be careful what you think, Toto. Let's go, Toto. >> It's crazy. All right, so give me give me another couple then. Give me another couple of people that you've been ringing side to. >> Ringside. So, you know what? I'm going to I'll talk about Roger Federer and then I'm going to talk about just a new division head of a of a company that um I've been working with for a long time and why I think he's a rock star. um for Roger. So Roger Fedra, of course, the reason why I thought he's such a cool cat is because when you are granted an interview and it's not in your own studio and you have to go with everybody else and wait your turn, they give you two two options, three minutes or three questions, right? >> Um because come on, these guys have to do this every day or they've just finished a final or whatever. They are tired and they have to make it to the winners and all this stuff. And um so Roger Federer had met him a couple times to interview him and of course the first thing that really freaked him out was the fact that I looked the way I did and I started speaking right started speaking Swiss German and he's like whoa. But of course when you connect on language you're in right he's like oh wow >> your channel's running is it? >> It is. Thank you. >> Okay. Yeah, just check in. >> Yes. >> Okay. Roger Federer has just made history. He has clinched it. The eighth Wimbledon crowned an absolute record. Congratulations. I mean, this is your 29th Grand Slam final. So, you understand the weight of the moment. So, so when you saw Marian Chilich was overcome with emotion, all that kind of pressure. Was that something you could empathize with? How did you overcome it with all this chatter about records? I mean, it's it's not simple, you know, because there's a lot of weight. >> Same with Martina Hingis. He she was so weirded out by the fact that I could speak Swiss German that if I would walk around Wimbledon be like, "Hey, Nikki, hey." Which was amazing. But what was great about Roger was he knew all of us need to get the sound bite. Please answer in a way that we can use or that is valuable and fruitful and we have a very short period of time. They're all media trained. You can speak to someone like uh Mugara who'll just go, "Yes, thank you." Yeah, >> of course you should never open with a question that's yes or no. Um, but >> no offense to Muga, she went through a lot and I just went, "Oh, I can't really use that." >> But Roger's got finesse on and off the court. >> Finesse on and off the court and he will give you the time if I went, I'm going with three questions. I will give you three answers and you can massage it any way you like. And he didn't have to do that. Everyone wants a piece of him. And I just went, he is. And I mean I was like so of course I was even more enamored and I was telling everyone I think even his sweat smells amazing. >> I'm like I am so into this guy. >> So I it's so funny cuz uh again I can tell a lot. I asked someone the other day he said oh I I love tennis. I play a bit I'm a big fan. I said who's your favorite tennis player? He said well why? And I said I will know a lot about you based on what you study. Not just not your not just your generation. So for example, yes I I said so he said Fedra. So I said, "You have a single backhand, right?" He goes, "Yeah." And I said, "So you have finesse just cuz those guys, SRA, Fedra, you know, I love I love Agassi. I loved all I love all the plays cover." But for me, you know, you talk about Hingis and Fedra. If you met them in a bar, >> they could easily just they could be librarians. You wouldn't know that Roger Fedra was a world well for me, he's the greatest tennis player of all time. Just, you know, I just love watching him play, but you know what I mean. and he just just so kind and then what about and so who else who was the objective you were going to say >> well I was going to say you know since I'm studying transitions and you want to look at leadership and transition when t when disruption is at its height what is something recently that's happened that really that struck me and that I again I I love it right it's my classroom it's happening in real time in front of me I'm like boom this is research so there's a particular company I've worked uh wor work worked with for over over 10 years and I I I love them dearly and I've seen leadership change three times in in those in those 10 12 years. All three of them incredible people, very different styles. But two days before a kickoff, and this was an Apacwide kickoff, sales kickoff. So you had all of their sort of heads of different markets coming together. Two days before that happened, their head, their division head was let go. Um I mean just that that was it. There was no goodbye. She didn't she or he did not even come into the office anymore. It was just done. And I knew this was going to be a very difficult, uncertain kickoff. We're supposed to be fired up for plan and what you're going to execute together. So that person was let go of which meant that the new division head was sort of parachuted in and had also just been told they have to leave a a division they've led for over 10 years, which is very hard. So I already knew this is going to be a very different energy and I would love to see how they handle this, right? And there I am going, well, I can't just get everyone fired up without addressing the elephant in the room, but that's not my place. So, what was great is is as soon as I met the the new head, he said to me, um, I think it's really important that you and I spend time together, so you get to know who I am. I was like, you want to get to know the MC? He goes, well, yeah, because you're piecing this all together, right? I was like, thank you. Someone who actually recognizes that what we do is >> very rare, right? very rare that really and there but there are some those are the companies I still work with the ones who actually use me valuably who get why you pay someone to do this right >> um and he said I want to do I want to do like a sitdown on stage with you so people get to know me better and because this is all a really new and and a bit of a scary time and one of the first things he says to people is he goes I know this is hard this is also hard for me because I've just left my family of 10 years and I was so proud to work with Um, but I look around and I can see you're proud to be here, too. And he goes, "I don't know your business very well. I've had two days. I'm playing catchup, but I can already sense in this room that I'm in a really, really safe place." I mean, I was like, "Oh my god, this guy." Right? And he goes, "I I won't be able to answer all the questions, but I'm here to learn. I want to know what's working, what's not working well." And then we sat down for this interview, and he spent maybe only 10 minutes talking about his leadership style, which was awesome because he's like, "I'm not a micromanager. You get paid. I I know you know what you're doing. I'm here to steer. I just want to know what's up. And the rest of the time was he was talking about his life growing up poor in East Germany. He had a chance to be a professional skier. He said, "No, I'm going to go to America on my own as a kid to try and learn English and start again." And what that was was a real masterass in how you manage disruption by really one addressing the elephant in the room, one acknowledging what people you know are feeling. It's hard. It's scary. In fact, I spoke to to someone after that u from the audience and said, "Hey, how are you feeling about everything? This is a tricky time, huh?" >> And he said, "You know, I completely I empathize what with whatever reason they had to let go of our boss that that's on them and I respect their decision, but what's really hard is we didn't have a chance to say goodbye." That's what I mean. Endings, loss, goodbye, mourning. You've got to go through it. You've got to acknowledge it. It'll take longer for others. It's not just, oh, we're at a this was just like catapulting at at rocket speed, right? >> Um, and yeah, so I was so impressed with with this new leader and and how he handled that and he really made people feel valued and and he he led with vulnerability. He says, "I don't know the answers right now, but I'm going to give it freaking everything I've got." Um, and and he goes, "Please come up to me, introduce yourself, tell me what's going on, because this is how I'm going to learn." Fast forward to this January, one year later, first time in several years that this division, not just hit plan, but like blew it blew it out of the park. And I think it's got a lot to do with that, right? It's how you handle how you how you support the feelings of people, the human beings, not just the human doings, especially in times of disruption. So, I can't name this person because you don't want to talk about businesses, but I was like really blown away. Yeah. >> All right. So listen, I want to I want to go through a few rapid fire questions if I may and I want to know you a little bit. What what skill from television has unexpectedly become your greatest advantage outside of media? >> Outside of media, listening 100%. >> Yeah, listening. Listening >> very intent, you know, great eye contact. >> Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think listening is um is really important and that's what I mean it helps outside of media, but it just helps anywhere in life, especially with making new friends or trying to understand your partner better. Trying to understand your partner better. >> It's a lifelong journey as as my wife will tell you for sure. >> Yes. >> What's what's a professional instinct that you trust now that you used to ignore? >> Yeah, like like you said earlier, trusting your gut. I I love the saying, if your gut is talking, shut up and listening. Okay, let me try that in English. >> I'm so Filipino. >> No, no, no. >> I love the I love the saying, if your gut is talking, shut up and listen. So, I trust my gut now. And I'm not going to take for, you know, usually I was like, oh, it take five years to figure out whether my gut is right. I'm done with that. All right, I am past 40. I need to plan. Trust the gut. Don't take all that time. Just know you're in the right place and that it'll always serve you well. I I always, you know, we've all heard that saying. I say it to my kids often. I said, "That person show you who they are. Let them show you." You already know what >> that's >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because actually, we had this discussion. My my 17-year-old had a had a boyfriend. And um he was very nice when we first met him. And then my son said, "I don't like him that." I said >> to him, he said, he said, "I want you, >> you know, to me." And uh we we we said, "Look, you know, >> let it play out. see where it goes cuz that's what you have to do. And um actually I think my son and I were a bit too nice to at the beginning. So unfortunately any future boyfriends will have to meet a different version of uh daddy and big brother because >> what a shame. What a shame >> because they're going to be guilty until proven innocent. >> Well, you know, I learned from my father-in-law, you know, we we got married before he you know, he passed on. He was the president of the Eurasian Association, by the way. and and he may he did give me a bit of a hard time, but actually he was the most welcoming person. So I I I want that to be the case, but I also want the boys to know. >> True. You don't necessarily want to instill fear. You want to instill respect. >> Yeah, >> that's that's trying to find that, right? Yeah. >> Was it Was it Wait, wait, sorry. I was trying to remember what's a celebrity It'll come to me later. >> What do you think >> was a celebrity was saying? Yeah, you could. It doesn't matter. you basically when the boyfriend came to the to the door and said, "Yep, just remember you guys go have a good time and whatever you do to my daughter, I'm going to do to you when we get home." >> Yeah, I love that. I love that. >> That's No, but it's actually you think about that, you know, makes sense. >> And it's funny cuz like when I used to do boxing martial arts, you know, when we would spar, someone would say, "How hard are we going to go?" >> And I said, "Well, I'll hit you as hard as you hit me." Right? because people take cheap shots, right? But um so I remember on Talia, she just joined a new school and at the end of the first week they had to go to Vietnam for a basketball competition. So and it it was her 17th birthday so I went and I was I was the only dad that was there and uh >> that's amazing that you went all the way. >> Yeah, there were a few parents there. Yeah. >> Cool. >> And I I really went for her birthday, right? because I didn't want to have a birthday on her own and she she was in her first week of school said okay amazing teacher she arranged for a birthday cake and all the kids were there and all the boys were there and I just said look just so you guys know I introduced myself very quickly 30 seconds and I said thanks for being so welcoming um just you know I'm an ex fighter if any of you guys upset my daughter I will break your few legs and then I smiled right I was just I just thought you know what I'm going to put that out there just to needle them a little bit and >> oh my god God, did she was she mortified or she just goes and I said, "Oh my god, I know you love it, baby." You know, cuz there was a bit of a bit of a smile. It was It was not too bad. What's the most >> It's just a bit of a But that's that's what dad >> So cute. >> Um, what's the most overlooked skill in high performing teams? I've been grappling with this because it's like where do I begin? The most overlooked skill in high performing teams is I think it's twofold. It's really celebrate especially high performing teams celebrating wins like really celebrating wins and being super honest about the losses and giving it time and like really opening up to it. Those two things are really important especially, right? It's like go go go. We got this quarter. We've got this whale. We need it. We land it. Let's move on. We move on. >> Yeah. >> And it's like but yeah, the people the people had to give their blood and sweat and tears and we did it together. Sometimes it was brutal. It's really Yeah, I would say it really got in the time for that for those two things. I think it makes a big difference. >> What does psychological safety actually require of leadership? I think it goes it's psychological safety requiring that I mean belonging right cultivating a sense of belonging that every it's a core human need a basic human need we all want to feel like we're part of a tribe that we have someone in our corner and that we're in theirs um and I think it goes and this happens so much in organizations when it comes to this stuff they only want to get to know people through your voice count survey which really baffles me I think it's that right psychological safety is knowing that trust is built in small moments and you believe that. You live that how you do anything is how you do everything, right? You're not going to say, "Oh, we're here and we're exclusive." >> That's my favorite part >> and I love that. As soon as I saw that on your what's I was like, "Ah, this guy's my this guy's my jam." >> I love that. >> But um yeah, so it's it's really that it's it's building trust in small moments, right? If you're if you are going to walk the walk and you really want to get to know what what's on people's minds, you give you give time. It's the water cooler chat. It's being physically present. Just like the the leader that I was telling you about. What's amazing about him is every time you talk to him, he makes you feel like that's the most important conversation he's going to have that day. >> That's amazing. >> And you know that's not the case. You know, he's got a 25 people he's got to chat to and all. >> Tom Cruz, I've seen Tom Cruz interviews, he kind of sucks you in when he's not jumping on the couch with Oprah. He kind of he kind of pulls you in. >> How does culture charm? >> Pure charisma. How does culture fracture during periods of rapid change? Because I find most organizations have a cultural issue. >> Sorry, I find most organizations >> have a cultural issue. I I find their fracture. So I would say like how does culture fracture during periods of rapid change. >> Yeah. Anytime change is announced, people are going to go into freeall because our brains are hardwired to kind of operate and understand the stories of the past and how we used to do things. So you have a chance two things can happen. You can really be divisive because people might assume that change is going to benefit some more than others. So you create this other ring on us versus them with leadership which you don't want, right? Because you want everybody to be on the same team so we can be creative, collaborative, strategic, take risks together, do hard things together. So, um, in order to really make that stick, it's rather than just focusing on all this amazing change and we're going to, you know, here's what's going to happen when this is implemented, we focus on here's what's going to change, here's what's not going to change, here's what we're going to lose and why it's hard and let's talk about that, right? And most importantly, getting people to feel like they are an integral part of the change and not just the recipients of the download of the mandate that's about to be to be uh implemented, right? have them really be a part of it because their feedback does matter. They're the ones on the ground, guys, right? They don't necessarily have to make the big decisions of whatever that change looks like or how it's rolled out, right? It's it's way be bigger than a really nice project management plan. It is understanding that human beings take time. Most of the time when leadership announces change, they've had time to process what that means and how hard that's going to be for them as well. But by and by the time they've actually announced it and it's glossy in the in the in the brief, that means that people have just heard it for the first time, officially heard it for the first time. It's going to take time. You have to allow it to happen. You have to embrace that there's going to be that neutral zone between the old identity and the new. Go through it. Be with them. Ex acknowledge that it's happening and that it's hard. And remind them of the last time they did something really hard and how good it felt afterwards. Remind them they can do this. Yeah, that's powerful. One last question on on leadership. What questions do you think leaders should ask before asking for performance? Because I find that most leaders just say, well, they demand things, but they're not asking questions. I'm just curious what your take is on that. >> Yeah, I think we'd probably be aligned with the same with the same answer. I think uh the question should be what can I as leader, what can I do? what do you need from me in order for you to be at your best? And actually have created already a safe space where they can answer that honestly. And so some people would rather have a conversation one-on-one. A lot of what I see is they'll say, "Ask me anything at the end of the agenda, at the end of a three-day kickoff with everybody here." And also not taking into account culturally that maybe some of these people don't want to call out >> leaders in front of others. So, it's being able to give them that space to say, "Hey, I'm not just asking for the sake of ticking the box that I did this. I really want to know what do you need from me so that I can help you get to where we need to go?" >> Beautiful. And now, one last introspective question about you because we're talking about authenticity and honesty. What tr what truth about yourself took the longest for you to accept? >> That I can't do everything by myself. until until 2020, I really felt very self-reliant and self-resilient because I've had to figure out and navigate disruption on my own because no one was talking about it. Not because there was malent, but it wasn't a discuss thing. And so, and I've I've thrived on that because I felt really independent and resilient. There's that go-getter, the one who can do anything, especially under high duress, but that only serves you up to a point because your issues are in your tissues. It's going to come out. So, I can't do everything by myself. Yeah. >> Um, I need to ask for help even when I don't want to. I need to talk about what's hard, even if I want to keep it to myself. That's my mo. I've got I've got to realize that the the the future me, the one that deserves to come out and get ready to have fun and shine, can't work alone. >> Yeah. Um, in closing, one of the things, if you don't mind, and to give the audience members just a little bit of a tip, I I think your branding and messaging is so world class, you know. I love your website. I just think, you know, >> Oh, that's going to be that's good. I want to do nothing on transition yet, but they appreciate that you like it and some way, buddies, help you with that. You >> know, I love you cuz it's I love the clean lines. I love the videos. I like the messaging, but what tidbits could you give to people that are thinking about, you know, redefining their brand and their messaging? >> Redefining your brand and your messaging is is that whole reinvention that you're talking about, you know, and and the hard part of is the middle bit of like where you're not sure. But I will say flirt with possible selves. Test, right? Test, experiment, surround yourself with people who don't think like you, who might not even have the same interests. Go out on a limb and talk to people who are doing something completely different from you in terms of profession and vocation. Even if it sounds like something you would never do, go and talk to them. Be friends with them. Experiment. Flirt with different identities. And don't just rip off the band-aid all at once. As brave and wonderful as that sounds, I've done that several times. I don't think it works anymore when the stakes are higher. Like I said, especially when your confidence is going to be trumped pretty often. >> Yeah. >> Keep yourself doing some of the things that you really are very good at, even if you're not a big fan of them because you're going to need that mojo to to ride you through this reinvention of of the next chapter in your life. >> That's great. Now, I just want to say thank you. Are there any projects other than the podcast that you can touch upon that you might be working on in the future? Uh, I'm definitely plugging the podcast mostly now because that's just I'm so excited for that. Um, and hopefully I mean what I'd love to do with this is to kind of go back to my old clients and say, "Hey, I know you used to hire me for this, but now I'm really interested in transitions. I have something specific to say." So, I'm hoping that will happen. And eventually, yes, Doc Doug and I really want to work on some retreats um for for people to come and have a safe place in a beautiful place and really work through whatever life transition they're going through. But that's so far down the line. Right now, it's please catch safe passage and and thank you very much for having me, Paul. You are such a great listener. You're so intuitive, highly intelligent, such an inspiration. I can't wait to have you on our show. >> I can't wait, Nikki. It's been a pleasure. You're such a beautiful soul. Got so much energy. I feel pumped. Thank you. >> Me, too. Thank you. Cheers.

‍

‍