What It Really Takes To Win, Paralympic Bronze Medalist, Theresa Goh | #49

I missed my bronze by 0.7 seconds. It was horrible. It was just a touch. To me, it's always that what if, right? For a lot of athletes, that's just the way it is. >> Meet Theresa Go, Singapore's Parolympic pioneer and twotime former world record holder. Born with Spinoipida, she found freedom in the water and strength in every stroke. across four parolympic games, including an amazing bronze in Rio in 2016. She's proven that courage, grit, and heart can rewrite what's possible. >> Medal itself has a sound. This one is just for the blind athletes who can't see what color it is. Gold sounds a bit higher pitched and louder. Spray on the back event on the bottom engraved. people have just put really strongly this message of uh success being the best but it's really harmful in the end especially when you place such thoughts in young athletes minds because then it's tied to their self worth there's no one there to support if they eventually don't reach number one >> what gives you confidence today >> knowing that I can do what I set my mind to aside from walk but but I think everything else that I do set out to achieve I'm almost confident that I will get it. The deep sense of trust in self. I don't have to depend on anybody's input or what people think of me. I don't really care what people think of me. I remember I touched the wall. When I turned around, I saw the blocks. I was so happy feeling like uh a weight had been lifted. >> Theresa, how are you? >> Really good. Thank you for having me. >> I'm super pumped that you're here. Now, for those that may not know you, a few people, I want you to give a quick introduction before we turn back the pages of time, please. >> I am Theresa Go. I am a former Parolympic swimmer in Singapore. I used to hold two world records, uh, probably one Asian record somewhere. And I won the bronze medal in the Rio Parolympic Games in 2016 for the 100 meters breaststroke SB4 category. >> Amazing. Well, can you just show us this beautiful piece of artwork? Is the camera picking it up, Isaac? Just make sure. >> I go there. >> Yeah, there. A bit a bit lower. That's it. >> Lower. >> Higher. Higher. Okay. >> Like that. >> Beautiful. Yeah. Perfect. >> So, it's it's uh it's usually they give you a little pin to just if you have like a a formal where I think Australia has like a really nice blazer. Yes. >> Um but we don't have much of it. Yeah. So, it's uh for that >> just to wear your lapel on the jacket. >> Extra. Yeah. And then the metal itself. So, I've dropped my my box of >> Let's see the box because this this is meant to represent >> It's like a Brazil nut. >> Yeah. And it's be But why I say that is is Listen, I've always dreamed about winning in a medal at the Olympics and it's just it's so beautiful. >> Yeah. It's really nice. >> It's stunning. >> Wellcrafted. >> It's amazing. Okay. Now, show show us this. >> So, the medal itself has a sound. Not all the medals are like that. Uh this one is just for like uh the blind athletes who can't see what color it is. >> Yes. >> So, they can hear it. Uh, gold sounds a bit higher pitched and louder. Um, I guess it depends on number of balls they put inside. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, mine sounds like that. >> Yeah. >> Truly, truly, truly amazing. And then it has Braille on the back, right? >> Yes. Braille on the back and there's um event on the bottom engraved. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. So, I remember which one I swam. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in case you you know, you could be in multiple, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So I mean it's also like logistically I think about it while must be difficult if you miss one or you forget to print one you know then it's >> they can't get it wrong. They can't get it wrong. >> Well I'm so honored and privileged that you brought that because that is very special. Getting to go to the Olympics is one thing but getting on the podium is completely another. >> Definitely. I think I I as a young athlete I never really thought about it too much you know. Um, all I wanted was to just have fun in the water. Yeah. >> You know, I mean, in the pool, it's uh, it's just a feeling of it's just a feeling of freedom. >> And I don't think I really can get that anywhere else. You know, on land, it's steps and I feel hindered. Um, in the water, it's just a huge amount of freedom and I can go wherever I want. Um, and so to me, swimming really was just a feeling of freedom. um this this sport that gave me that and I was just lucky I I did well enough in it to continue for 20 years. Yeah. >> Amazing. I mean look as a as a former athlete myself I'm just I think what people don't understand is how much hard work and dedication goes into it which is really huge. Now if you don't mind what I want to do is I want to unpack your story growing up because I always feel that people in their journeys and their careers it starts with your childhood and it never really leaves you. So let's go back a little bit and tell me about your early days growing up and you know what did you fall in love with and when did sport become prevalent? >> I mean I was a firstborn child to my parents. So being a child with a disability I think for them it was everything was new. Uh even when I was I think my mom was getting her gyne checkups there wasn't any indication that I would be anything but an able-bodied child. So when I did when I was born they took me away. I think it was the first time uh they really felt like oh what what's up something might be different something might be off you know um and that was the start of really a childhood of a lot of hospital visits >> and the hospital became my second home almost uh at least for the first couple of months um and I I think I had my first surgery at 3 months old um later on a couple along the way broke I broke I broke my leg bone from being too callous crawling around >> and stuff like that. Yeah. So, I think just got so comfortable in the hospital >> um that that I wasn't too afraid of it. I guess that's a good thing. Um and later on my parents really their their main their main importance for them was to get me independent. Um and I think that's really logical and practical of them, you know. um think of my future and I think a lot of parents with kids with disabilities tend to go to the really overprotective route you know and they just like uh bubble wrap them u provide everything for them and and make sure that they get they can uh they get >> they don't have to do anything on their own um and I think that really hinders the future for them you know for me whatever I could do my on my own my parents make sure I could so stuff like I mean simple things you know like uh light switches being able to access the sink uh brush my teeth on my own >> even going to school um though there's a little bit of privilege there because we could move we could afford to move houses >> a couple of black blocks uh nearer to school >> okay lovely >> so I got to go to school by my own >> Did you go to a regular school >> yes mainstream school >> so I think another thing also is the the idea of uh mainstream versus uh special ed school Yeah, >> I think it is no shame in any or either, right? I think it's just understanding which is best suited to you. >> I think sometimes with uh some people the automatic uh assumption is that if you're disabled, you go to a special ed school is quite harmful, you know. >> Well, in Singapore, I wasn't sure cuz when I grew up in the UK, my high school was amazing. It was s such a a collective group of people. So, I think there were three kids in my year that were in wheelchairs and we had someone with dwarfism and um >> and then you have crazy people like me as well, you know. So, I love that. And then and then when did you then first realize that you like sports? >> Um swimming was the first introduction. I think it was just like the every weekend with my family, you know, we just go to the pool and in Singapore every stone throw is a swimming pool, right? So it was uh the same for us, you know, we just wanted to play. Um and then later on, I think my dad started teaching me how to swim a little bit more proper and keeping my head above the water, not drown. Um and one of the days, there was a volunteer from the Singapore Disability Sports Council where I'm working at now. >> Um and they they the the volunteer spoke to my dad and said, you know, I think she has a lot of potential. Do you want to bring her for the national swimming meet coming up? >> How old were you? um like 11 or 12. So I mean I started swimming proper at 12 but I think the volunteer met my dad about 10 or 11 or something like that. >> You know I want to touch upon that because I I think that if if a child has some form of success early on >> it helps give them confidence for for you know their teenage years. And so I think it's very timely that you met that person at that delicate >> you know. Yeah. Really because those are your formative years. >> Yeah. Yeah. So then you did you go straight into a competition then? >> I went into nationals. Yes. National competition. Yeah. >> Wow. >> No time to lose. But >> literally into the deep end. Yeah. Literally. >> Yeah. But I did start swimming from five. So I mean it was not a a new um activity for me. It was just like transitioning into competition. It was different. Um I joined the swimming program that SDSC had and it was what three times a week or something. And that's like nothing really compared to going up to was it 13 sessions a week uh at the highest. >> Can you explain that cuz I swam and nowhere near your level but at the time I was swimming you know three times before school, three times after school and technique training on Sunday. >> Yeah. >> And um you know there's a big difference between training three times a week to 13 times a week. >> It's huge. Like it's it's like you can't expect that to be a a straight jump, right? It has to be gradual. And I think for me I'm really grateful because the whole journey was really smooth really um from from 99 when I started to 2019. Um I I had some ups and down I'm sure but most of the journey was really smooth. >> And were your parents taking you each time? >> Yeah my dad if so >> we got to give a shout out to him because that's that's a lot of work. >> Yeah it's a lot of work and my my my dad was always the one who has to wake earlier than me. Yeah. >> And I mean, we have trainings at like 6, so he has to be up at 5 something >> and and making sure I'm awake and then making sure I go to training. So, I mean, I definitely attribute a lot of it to my dad because if if some of the mornings if his alarm for like doesn't go off Yeah. >> I'll just like don't wake me up and I'll get to sleep some more and then I'll I'll apologize to coach later on. You know, it's just like the >> as a kid, you know, you just like want to take every opportunity to not go to training sometimes. of course, >> you know, but I think it's it's especially the earlier parts of my sporting career, there was not that idea of uh aiming for something and I think at that point it was still just swimming because >> I was expected to do so, you know, it was a almost like a just go with the flow kind of thing. >> Did you get ever get to the point where you thought I'm tired of looking at a black line up and down? Because a lot of kids drop out of swimming, right? >> Yeah. especially when they hit like um what 16 or 17 you know when they have to go to >> Polly or JC I think it gets really difficult >> um and again I say I'm really lucky because I had a huge parental support and >> um I did take my O levels the same year as um I think my first parolympic games so I've been to four parolympic games Athens >> amazing >> uh Beijing London Rio yeah >> so the first parolympic games was 2004 for I had my O levels after I came back from Athens. Um and then had to go choose JC or Poly. Decided that uh maybe PY is better cuz there's a bit more freedom of time. Um and then went to the design course which was a huge mistake cuz I I had so much projects to do. I thought I had no exams which meant better but I was wrong. So I went into design school and I I dropped out of Poly after one semester because I couldn't really balance the both. It's a lot. It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot and really not for anyone. Like I think those student athletes who can balance studying and sport is is truly amazing. I can't do it. >> Yeah. And I think it's about knowing yourself, right? I think if I knew that I cannot handle it, it was a good choice for me to drop out of school first. Yeah. >> And focus on swimming because I think >> for me education is something that's lifelong and something we can potentially go back into a bit later on. Correct. But sport is dependent on your body, you know, you have a small window, >> especially swimming, you know, I think it's so physical. So, I did decide to drop out of poly and I went into swimming full-time. Uh, after that, um, in 2004 was my first parolympic games. Right. It was >> How old were you at the time? >> Remember? >> Wow. Um, 17. >> Yeah. So, you're again, you're a very delicate age, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you just explain to the audience that may not truly understand when you're doing sports, >> it's a it's a lifestyle because you're having to think about your sleep, your nutrition, your weight, right? Cuz there's an optimum weight that you're swimming at. Just just give an overview of that cuz people don't may not understand that. >> I think you imagine yourself at 17 when you are kind of at a peak of like your um meeting new friends, you know, trying to go out and and meet people and uh have fun. Um I was at a point of uh having to choose between my friends and training. So a lot of times they would like ask me if I'm free for uh I don't know dinner or something and I say oh I can't have training or they'll ask oh do you want to come and join our chalet >> then I was like oh I kind of got training. You know it's a lot of choices and I don't say that I make >> I I wouldn't really put it as a sacrifice because it's that's a really kind of a negative tone to it. >> Correct. Correct. It's a but it's a commitment. It's a choice. Yeah. I I I want to do it. So, I choose to do this, you know. I'm not sacrificing anything really. >> Yeah. >> Um because in the end, I still get something great, you know. Um Yeah. So, I mean, at 17 it was a little bit more difficult because I was really sometimes a bit torn cuz I see my friends going out uh having fun and then I'm I'm having to get make my way to the pool and then train and then come back and eat dinner and sleep, you know. So, I think it's uh it's a it's a it's a thing that I feel like all athletes have to go through at some point, you know. Um and I don't I definitely don't regret it at all, you know. Did you find that um you could enjoy the Olympics more after Athens because in terms of you're there apart from competing you want to take in the whole surroundings the games >> or did you on day one at the the first Olympics you were you embraced it >> like just enjoyment of it >> because you're so focused on the competing you know people may not be able to enjoy it right >> so like like one when I was in the village >> um to be honest just the whole the whole parolympic experience was surreal at the start cuz it was new, right? And and I think when I went to the village, I was just oh like what is everything, you know? Um and then also then being surrounded by so many disabled athletes to me was new and amazing, you know. um in real life like I think before that I was just uh always felt like I was a minority or um there were no not many other disabled people around me and it was like entering the the games village was like a whole new world and I think one thing that I really took out of it was that I really wanted to come back I wanted to come back to this scenario this environment because it's it made me feel amazing >> you know it made me feel like I belonged >> you were home in so many ways right >> exactly so I I I I don't remember what happened after I finished competing cuz I had like seven events. >> Wow. >> Um and I made finals for all of them. So I think that was like a >> a step right for me. My coach was like, "Okay, I think let's aim for higher next time, which was Beijing." >> And so I was like, "Okay, let's uh I think you can podium at Beijing 2008." So I think that was also part of the reason why I I quit school because I wanted to really focus on my goal >> and lock in. >> Yeah. So which was 2008 it was what only four years away. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So I think uh from I think just after 2005 around there it was really all systems school for uh baiting I I didn't do much of anything else but sleep swim eat you know like that was my whole world really. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think in some ways that might have been the not the smartest thing to do because I think I what I really needed was a little bit more balanced. >> Um and and to be to be honest I could have used a few >> like social sessions with my friends instead of >> well it's mentally fatiguing. I mean you think about it just four Olympics that span of 12 years leading up to Athens you've been training non-stop at such a high level >> you know something's got to give right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think at that point when I was leading up to painting, it was really over too much, right? Yeah. >> And I I almost felt like it was a bit of burnt out um slightly. Yeah. >> But also just um not being able to rest enough, recover enough, and >> putting too much pressure on myself. I was only what 21 at uh when I went to P. >> Still a baby, right? In so many ways, still learning >> in so many ways. Yeah. And I think I was just too overwhelmed with the stress at that point. we hadn't gotten our first medal yet for Singapore. >> So, um there were a lot of media reports on how I might be the first, you know, and I think up to the point I was always in the papers because I was doing really well. Um but upcoming was also my teammate Pingu. Yes. I'm sure everyone hopefully knows her of course, you know, and then she was also at her first parolympic games in Beijing, you know, and she had been kind of under the radar a little bit, you know. Um, so it was also really interesting to see from the other side what uh that looked like, you know, because she was young and new and kind of not really expecting anything. >> Um, and then I'm here kind of been in the scene for a little bit longer and kind of expecting a little bit more from performance. >> Um, >> and then getting into the games, I think we had our first medal from uh, Laurentia from Equestrian. >> Yeah. >> And and then Pingu who won the first gold for Singapore in the Parolympic games. Yeah. So, I think then I I had to kind of balance that with my own disappointment of not being able to podium. Um, I missed my bronze by 0.7 seconds. >> That's got to be very hard to swallow. >> Oh man, it was horrible. >> It was just a touch. And I think to me, it's always that what if, right? But I think at some point for a lot of athletes, that's just the way it is. There's only three spots, right? You can't >> just because I I think I put in a little bit more work, you know, I deserve the the bronze. It doesn't work like that. No, it doesn't. >> Sport is brutal, but but true, right? I think it's fair. >> It is. >> Yeah. And you get there by sometimes by luck, by hard work, by whatever timing, you know? Sometimes it's just that way. >> And I think for me it was having to just to balance everything of uh the huge um pride I had for Pink Su and also the huge disappointment I had in my own performance. So I think that was that was that was hard for me. >> We'll put it into context. If you think about a second, that's a second. So, so a seventh. >> So, you know, you can't even It's just is it's crazy to think about. >> It's it's tiny. But yeah, I mean it's also the the really big learning point for me because up to that point I think I hadn't really truly love swimming to be honest. You know, >> um I was doing it because I was doing well and I didn't feel like I could leave. But once that happened, I think that was the first big disappointment I had in my career. And then I had to reframe because I was so sad and I was so disappointed and I was like, "Okay, what do I do now? Do I um quit swimming >> because a lot of people you they could give up. That could be it then." >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think I did consider it at some point because it was that huge of a disappointment for me. Um but I I I think instead of quitting I took some time away. So I I think I went to powerlifting for about nine months after that. Yeah. And >> is that the you were already lifting at that point, right? But but now you like stepped it up a bit. >> Competitive lifting >> but I I love the gym, you know, I enjoy lifting heavy and feeling strong and that was uh supplementing my swimming. Yes. >> But once I quit or once I I paused on swimming for a bit and then I went into powerlifting, it was then uh enhanced, right? And so I I did like so powerlifting for par parolympic powerlifting is a single bench press the heaviest and max rep. >> So I went to the point of being able to bench press 120 kgs. And >> and what was your body weight at the time? >> 60. >> I want to put this into contest for people that don't lift. When if you can do twice your body weight in bench press and three times in deadlift, you are a serious serious athlete. Do you know what I mean? And not just that, you know, you don't have your whole core and your legs to stabilize your body, >> so you're strapped in, right? >> I mean, tell us about that because that takes a lot of muscle memory and and you, you know, building the neurological pathways to doing that. >> How long was it that it took you to get to that point >> to to lift that? >> Yeah. To to get to 120 kg. >> I mean, I think it's because I had that base of gym already for swimming. So I was already quite naturally strong. >> Yeah. >> But then kind of having to add in that technical part of powerlifting and >> pressing from a certain point and and kind of arching the back a little bit more. All all these things were taught to me later on. Yeah. >> Did you did you contemplate changing sport? >> Oh, very much. >> You could have done it. I could have I think logically I felt like I could have switched sport and done well >> but I think it's was again very much an internal feeling for me of I don't think I'm quite done yet with swimming you know and it's knowing yourself right because everybody around me could be saying >> just change you know just go to powerlifting you're doing quite well how about you just move >> but it's it's still a choice that I had to make and I had to understand how do I feel what do I want and I I think in the end I did know that I I can't I can't leave swimming yet. >> So you're making a choice now. You had a lot of different people talking. So how do you reconcile on your own and say look this is what I need to do want to do. >> Honestly I think it's about knowing yourself. You have to know yourself. I think it's uh something that maybe not many people may be able to fully understand >> cuz they they're just maybe not tapped in fully into how they're feeling. Um I I know when something's off like know like maybe a little bit on the shoulder somewhere on the forearm like where does it link from like all these things is is a very much learned thing. >> Yeah. >> So it's also the the feelings thing right. So I I knew that I how I felt I knew what I wanted and I think I was able to shut out most of the voices or like the noise and and what people were saying and really understand what what is it I want you know. So, >> you know, you know what I'm curious about because a lot of again a lot of people they don't know unless you've been under for example a bar with that much weight on it visav your own weight. >> It requires absolute commitment and conviction cuz it's scary. It can I I mean I I got hurt. I I dislocated my shoulder, tore my pec off my bone, tore my libram from bench pressing and and injuries do go wrong. They do happen, right? So, but but but you you obviously were thrilled. You enjoyed it. I I I I mean similar to you, I do enjoy the challenging aspect of life sometimes, right? I like being challenged and not life being always so smooth. I like I like life going smoothly. I do enjoy the occasional like challenge here and there when especially when it's yourself challenging you. >> Um and lifting heavy and all this swimming faster than uh my current time. All this is kind of just being better than myself. >> Yeah. >> Every day. So even in training for my coach, uh he was never really the type to say you have to get a goal when you get to this event. You know, it was always personal best. It's how how do you get better than yourself? Because really, I mean, that's that's the only person you really have to challenge, you know, if you if you can't even beat yourself. You can't >> I don't think you should even look outward like >> Can you can you speak to some of the younger generation kids or anyone? Cuz I always say, look, all you can do is be the very best version of yourself. So if you can set a personal best every day, challenge yourself, you're going to get better by definition. But a lot of people don't think of it like that. They don't realize the greatest competition you have is against yourself. >> Yeah. I think they they just I don't know whether it's just society's messaging and the way people have just put really strongly this message of uh success being the best, the best, the best, the best. I think it it is good and like I guess really entertaining to see but it's really harmful in the end you know I think especially when you place such thoughts in young athletes minds and then not being able to help them um regulate if they don't become the best you know because then it's tied to their self-worth it's tied to their value of how they feel about themselves and there's no one there to support if they eventually don't reach number one which not everybody can reach >> do you remember do you remember a while ago Simone Biles was pulled out >> of u >> and I heard so much negativity and I said look firstly this girl was probably sexually abused >> right as part of that whole horrific uh incident that was ongoing >> secondly this woman is number one in the world at the most elite level under tremendous pressure and then thirdly the event that she's doing it's not going for a walk in the park you can die you know you're putting yourself through everything and I'm I'm so glad when she came back and dominated Again, it was absolute validation. And it's for people that don't know. They've never been there. How can you comment? >> Yeah. >> I mean, what's wrong with you? You know what I mean? >> It's it's a spectator like effect, right? They they think they know what's going on, but actually they're only kind of >> reaching the surface of it. I think >> something that that really has >> some something that I've learned along the 20 years, right, is the importance of >> um knowing when to stop. >> Yes. knowing when to rest because that is as important as when to train because you can you can understand that commitment is required to be the best. >> Yeah. >> But then in the middle if you don't understand that yes within that commitment you need to know when you need to pause, stop, rest, recover, >> you're not going to reach the top because you're going to be like I'm so tired. Yeah, you're tired because you can't rest. You didn't rest. And I think there's a fear involved of like, oh, everybody's training. Yeah, but everybody's training and resting, you know, >> intelligently. >> Yeah. Being smart about it, not just putting everything into it and not being able to balance it out with recovery. >> Talk talk to me about So, when were you diagnosed with spinoipida and then do you have to program your training around your specific conditioning really what the challenges are specifically linked to that? >> I think for spinal bifida was um it's from birth. So, it was a it's a congenital uh disability. Um, it didn't really affect my swimming so much besides not being able to kick to me. >> Um, maybe some some a bit like uh my back I have to activate a little bit more to make sure that my legs don't sink. Little nitty-gritty stuff like that. But on the whole, like I don't think my coach really adapted it to my condition specifically. Okay. I think it's more like uh adapting it to what my body can do. So my coach uh is uncle he was uncle at the when I was going to Beijing Athens London. Yeah. At some point of my life he was my my head coach. Um and uncle is also used to be the world's fastest man. Um and he's he's really an amazing role model and mentor figure for me. Um and he's always been the kind to again chase personal best not medals. Um, I love that. >> Yeah. And really put that that that >> message in my head for a really long time. Um, and he's also very good at kind of understanding what you can do. You know, different bodies are different. >> He used to coach, um, another parolympic medalist from the US, uh, Gregory Burns who's now an artist. Um, and so I think Uncle Sing also understood as a good coach, you don't have to really understand what your whole disability is about. You know, it's about what can you do? Show me what you can do. Show me uh if you can't do this, we'll try another way. If you can't do this, we'll try another way. It's about adapting, right? I think a good coach doesn't a good coach understands that even able-bodied swimmers are a little bit different sometimes. You know, there may be swimmers who all are able body, but this swimmer maybe has a really really good kick. >> Yeah. >> Then, you know, I think it's just understanding your athlete, not understanding your able body athlete or disabled athlete. >> No, I love that. No, I appreciate that. What What um can you tell me about mindset and approach cuz what I'm gathering from you is you took away the unnecessary pressure cuz I think that's pressure is it kills most young athletes, right? or or students or just in life in general, we put so much pressure on ourselves. How did you find you managed that mindset >> when >> just generally when you as as an athlete if you think about it because you're going into your your third Olympics, right? You're carrying the weight of disappointment across from Beijing, >> you know, how do you find a way to balance that? Because that in itself >> is the core skill. The reality is cuz if you if you're not thinking it, you would have given up. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think it was just time like for me it wasn't really um learning anything like I I didn't really read books or or ask people. I was really unfortunately a little bit more withdrawn during that period of after Beijing. >> Um and I took a lot of time just self-reflecting and >> I understood enough about myself that I knew I didn't want to quit but I didn't know how to get back up really. So I mean what I did was really just take some time away. So I I was in powerlifting for 9 months. I stopped that. Uh after 9 months I went back to swimming. Um and I really took it from the very beginning you know how do I enjoy the water again. So I went to the pool. I really just played in the water. I I told my coach I mean we were both understanding uh each other mutual understanding that I'm trying to really build that that love for swimming again. Yeah. >> Um and so I really just went there playing in the pool. uh half an hour, bye coach, I'm going home. You know, it's it starts from there and then slowly increasing it to like an hour, an hour and a half, going back to full twohour sessions again. >> Well, you're still you're 21, 22, you're still so young, right? In your formative years. >> I mean, yeah, it was it was gradual. And I think something I really did was uh take a little bit more time for myself. um enjoying my social life, my my family, my friends and making sure it's again not my head is not just full of only swimming. Yeah. >> I think for me what I learned from this experience maybe is that I am someone who needs more balance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it may not work for everybody, right? Some people really do a lot better when it's just their spot in their head in their life. But for me, I I knew from then that I needed that balance. >> You know what? I've observed that if someone is so so super intense, I heard Steven Henry is like one of the world's best snooker players and he was basically number one for about a decade and it was relentless. >> And in comparison, there's another guy Ronnie O Sullivan who is uh he's been one number one up and down, but he's had a very prolonged career. And I think >> if you're that intense for that period of time, it can just kill you. It just burn you out. Do you know what I mean? And the fact that you had another two games goes to show that you had a prolonged career cuz you found that balance. >> Yeah. And I mean 20 years is something that I don't I don't take lightly. You know, it's two decades two decade long career. Yeah. >> Um there were I mean the downs were there but I think what really helped was how to get back up, right? >> And uh after I went back to swimming and I found that enjoyment again, London was coming up. I really didn't place that much pressure or importance on this the results of it. Um I qualified I was like okay how do I again just enjoy competing and so I that was my main goal really. I wasn't going to go like okay let's get PBS. I think at that point it really wasn't realistic. So I was just how do I enjoy competing and racing again? Um and it was good you know I raced I was happy and >> enjoy the experience. >> Yeah. I think also just the whole idea of happiness, right? And I think that was something that really >> sat with me, you know, how do I make sure that whatever I'm doing, I'm training happy, racing happy, I'm happy, you know? >> I love it. >> Yeah. I think a lot of times there's a lot of pressure on on >> just doing so well. >> How do you how do you find like talk to me about people in your corner because I think if you don't have a great support network, it can it can be very very difficult. Oh, for sure. I think I would say most of my success is due to the people around me. You know, it's it's not possible without them. My again I say my dad when he wakes up earlier than me to send me to training, he sends me to training and then he jogs around the pool. So, he adds in a little bit of extra for himself, right? Good for him. >> Yeah. My mom makes the food and she makes it make sure it's healthy um and and nutritious and every training camp, every competition, every time I leave the country, my family is there to send me off, pick me up. >> Beautiful. >> And if they can, they'll be there in the stands to watch me. So it's it's something that I don't know and that I can say that a lot of athletes really have that that >> pure like just commitment of support for no matter what ups or downs you know >> when it was funny because when my son was on the Singapore national boxing team I would I would drive in cuz it was in bed and um >> I'd be there I don't want to be there too much because he's got to do his thing so I would do what your dad would do. I would go around the track and I'll go for a little bit of a run. Um but you know I just I I find that um the role of parents and coaches is sometimes overlooked you know and and having a coach your coach sounds like an amazing human being because the guidance the wisdom >> is huge. >> He's he's had such an impact in my life really and he's always had that figure that feeling of uh I really can trust him in whatever I do and we had a really good bond you know and I really respect him so much. >> That's amazing. Um and and just the respect between between the coach and the parent, >> you know, you you can't have that if you don't trust your coach, right? Your son's coach, >> you know, my my dad and mom really trusted the coach, left it to him. Yes. >> Um whatever he decided. So I think also >> later on I I was having a conversation with my mom and dad and they mentioned that Yeah. I mean during the down period there were a lot actually of conversations between my parents and my coach that I was unaware of. >> Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Just because they were like uh updating him and just telling him, "Oh, today, you know, she was like this and there." And especially in my slump, you know, I I was really probably really down and they were the ones kind of letting him know how I was and um maybe you know what he whatever he chooses to do with the information. Let let me share with you my take on this because I feel that the the role of coaches for young adults, young athletes is is very important and I actually think there are very few good coaches. >> A lot of the coaches, there's an commercial element that they're thinking about >> and it's not their fault. Everyone's got to get paid and make a living. >> So I think the system behind that and the ecosystem is very important. >> Yes. >> But what I say to a lot of the coaches is you don't realize that you you're thinking about this all wrong. The reality is very few of these young athletes are going to make their living from doing this sport. >> But what will happen is you're shaping this young adult and what they're going out into society. So win lose or draw you got to encourage them and it's a very difficult balancing act cuz you know when you have a young athlete it's a bit of push and pull and you know psychologically you know how is it right and it's it's and it's very very difficult. Um, so I wanted to speak about that. But one of the questions I had for you is growing up disabled in Singapore, what was it like? Because I know that in the UK back in the day, >> um, it it wasn't great. There weren't ramps for people and what and and it evolved over time, but have you seen the changes progressively in the last few decades? >> Oh, definitely. I think in Singapore, I kind of vaguely remember being a disabled kid 20 years ago. Um, and it was so different, right? I think at some point I was almost expecting that wherever I go it's not going to be accessible for me. Yeah. >> Um but also I was young enough that my my dad could carry me >> and then that evolved to now no longer. >> Um but also just the infrastructure improvement around Singapore. I think now I can go wherever I want by public transporting >> on my own and it's accessible. Um but I did I do think even mindset has changed a little bit just being more aware. Yeah, >> I remember when we were living in a part in T and they had just built a staircase. Um, and then next to it they started building something else like literally like 2 m 3 m away. I like oh cool they're going to build a ramp. They built another set of stairs. >> I just like what happened here and who approved it and that's what happened here because it did this didn't make sense. So my dad wrote into the >> He did. >> Yeah. I mean he's he's a bit vocal. No, as he should be. >> He's great, right? I think >> this is baby go. I was you know how you going to get around and everyone else like you? >> I had to go to a further down ramp but to to us it just like didn't make sense. So I think he wrote wrote in and I guess it must have been a mistake or something. Um it became a ramp. So accessible, right? I think sometimes people don't understand just when the necessity of accessibility because they don't need to use it yet, you know. I think when you don't need to use it, of course, it's not something you really >> see or like uh are aware of. The moment you need to use it, everything is so like it's a blinker, right? Or not accessible. It's not accessible. Notable. >> No, no, but the thing is it's a hygiene factor. Most of us don't even consider, you know, if you're able-bodied, but for you it's, you know, it's everything. >> Now, I want to turn back the pages. I want to take you to Rio 2016. >> How many different events were you competing in? >> Oh, wow. probably 50 50 like five. And what were your top two or three favorite events? >> Uh I mean Brushstroke was my my pet event. >> Okay. >> So >> is it your favorite and your best in in your mind at that time? >> My favorite >> cuz favorite and best sometimes are different, right? >> Yeah. It was torturous. I mean it was it's a really difficult um stroke to swim just cuz it's quite technical. Yes. Um, but I also I would say it's like sometimes it ties for first and second with 53. I like 53 cuz it's fast and it's just >> it's savage. It's just unbridled like >> not too much thinking just go. Right. But 100 breaststroke there's a bit of technique. There's a bit of tactics. That's like how much do you pull for the first 50 so that you can come back on the second? >> Um how much breaths do you take? So I actually go out and I >> did you measure? Did you know how many breaths? We had to I think there's a precision to it that we had to have >> 100%. >> Yeah. So we I know my first my first 10 strokes I don't breathe >> and then I breathe every tree. >> Okay. So you're doing bilaterals strokes. >> So then coming back uh after the turn again another 10 strokes not breathing. So I had to do a lot of >> breath holding exercises. Actually we trained with a free diver once. Wow. >> So I can hold my breath for about 3 minutes 30 seconds. >> That's impressive. at at some point and now I'm not sure if I can do it. >> But it's it's all these little things that you don't really kind of tie to swimming per se, but you know, it's all the different. >> Were you how scientific was your your coaching? Were you guys filming yourself and watching >> so much? I think it's very very >> people don't think about that when you got to think about swimming, right? >> Yeah. And you think about the drag and when you're pulling, >> right? >> So, I mean, I talk about like my back activation, making sure my my leg don't they don't sink. And you don't and you don't barrel, right? Because you can't rock too much. >> So it's uh it's a drills, it's lactic testing, it's uh >> so they did all of that, >> everything. Yeah. >> And then and this was all here in Singapore. >> Yes. Yeah. I mean this the system is there and facilities are there. I think >> maybe sometimes it's >> could be overwhelming, you know, for coaches to not know what they can use, what they should use, when they should use it. Um, and then they kind of go back to what's comfortable, which is I'll just focus on their sport, you know. Yeah. Um, I think it is it's it's a it's a really good opportunity in Singapore. We have >> really good resources, you know. Sometimes it's just knowing how to use it. >> I want to come back to the training and stuff in a minute, but I want to go back to the race. The race where this happened. So, tell me what your mindset was going in, who your competitors were, how well you knew them. >> Um, at this point, I mean, I had been swimming for 16 years, I think. So people were familiar with each other. You know, we've seen each other multiple times. Of course, um I think the feeling was just a completely different feeling from Beijing. So Beijing, I remember being really stressed out, um scared, uh dreading the swim. I almost almost felt like if I could close my eyes and open my eyes and the race would be over, you'd be happy. >> I'll be happy with that. >> Like just I'm done, you know. But obviously that didn't happen. So I think um my parents also were there in Beijing watching me race and they were in the stands you know I I was not looking for them. I was just like just look down just just swim and then get out and then be done with it. And the difference was in Rio because BP actually sponsored my parents and Pinku's parents to go up and watch us race. >> Wow. >> Um >> that's wonderful. Shout out to them. >> It's amazing. Yeah. Corporate sponsors, you know. >> So I think uh >> how did you find them? Did they reach out to you or you guys had to reach out to them? >> Yeah. Um BP was a I think it was a parolympic sponsor. So they reached out to the Singapore National Paris. >> I mean that that one thing it seems simple but it changes everything because now you got some support >> knowing you have your parents in the stands. Yeah. It's wonderful. And so the difference was that Beijing I was scared and dreading looking for them. But in Rio the moment I came out to the blocks right I was actively like where are they? Where are they? you know, and then having this more overwhelming feeling of excitement to race rather than dread, you know, it was so different. It was night and day. >> Yeah. So, I I think really for me >> I had to be happy. I had to be competing happy. I had to be racing happy. That was the >> No, but that's that was that that Well, that's everything, right? So, you're in the war. Walk me through what you remember. Can you not remember much of it? I don't remember much. >> Just the blanket finish. Uh it was I mean there was again excitement to go and show off in a sense what I had been doing all these years right and months leading up to it. Um, I think I was just like uh going through the the the the race tactics, holding my breath, not rushing my strokes, and then when I remember I touched the wall and turned around and kind of like >> When did you realize that you >> when I turned around, >> you knew straight away? >> When I turned around, I saw the blocks. But >> I was so happy. I think you can see from my race videos, it was >> we'll play it here when we when we release this, we'll include it. So that's why I wanted your walk through so we can show the video. >> I mean just just remembering turning around and feeling like uh a weight had been lifted, you know, and yeah, it was >> it's was it relief >> in some ways? That's what people don't they don't necessarily understand. It's relief cuz you work so hard towards trying to get this thing. >> Yeah, it was major relief. I think just that feeling of oh my gosh, finally, you know. Yeah. >> Um, but also like I I'm almost curious to know how I would have felt if I didn't get it again. >> You know, I I think at that point I was quite at peace with everything and that feeling of, you know, if I get it, I get it. If not, I'm okay. I think I had also worked on myself and my mental strength enough to know that I did not place that any of that on my worth as a athlete or person. >> Beautiful, >> you know. So, I think I was I'm I'm pretty sure I would have been okay if I had not gotten my bronze. >> But listen, >> it's a bonus. Like, >> but I'm I'm glad we sitting here today and you don't know cuz you achieved what you worked so hard towards. >> Um, >> when you look back, what is more important to you? The world records or or the medal or the bronze? >> None of them. Like, >> none of them. Oh, I love it. >> No, I think it's all material, right? I think everything else that came with it like the people I met, >> the confidence I've built, the person I am, it's all more important than all these other things on the side, you know. >> What gives you confidence today? You're sat here today. What what are the things you look back and you've brought with you to the amazing human being that's sat in front of me now? >> What what gives me confidence? >> Yeah. >> All the experiences I've had, I think, you know, knowing that I can do what I set my mind to. >> Yeah. you know, I I'm pretty confident in being able to do whatever I want. >> Yeah. um aside from work but but I think everything else that I do set out to achieve I'm almost confident that I will get it you know and I will I think it's also just the the deep sense of uh self trust in self and being able to know that my value is >> such without >> anybody telling me you know I I know that I have a huge um trust in my my abilities and in who I am and I don't have to depend on anybody's input or or what people think of me. I don't really care what people think of me really. >> Good for you. >> Um and I think that's years and years of selft talk and and really believe in uh whatever I choose to do, you know. >> That's amazing. I wanted to ask you because I've I've I've always wondered this. So you set two world records. >> Mhm. >> Did you ever swim faster? Not in competition. >> Not in competition. >> Yeah. Like did you ever swim faster at the time when you're in training? >> Oh. Oh. >> Because the answer I find is often no. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I always find that. So that proves that the moment >> you you you you built up to the moment. You delivered under the spotlight. >> Yeah. >> You know, with the >> pressure helps. >> That's the thing. People don't realize that. >> It's true. Yeah. >> So you never ran you never swam faster. I said ran never swam faster. >> No. No. I've actually never served faster in training. I I do enjoy the competitive aspect to it. I think I see it now in shooting cuz I've changed to shooting. >> Um I shoot well enough in training, but I always shoot much better in competition. >> Yeah. You're locked in. So where did shooting come from? Cuz it's such a you know the the two different sports you've already done, they're so different, right? >> Start with S. >> Yeah. And that's about it. But >> yeah, I think it was um it was just like a a thing that fell into place for me. Um I I think I was I was doing where was I? I was doing laser shooting in um the global esports week and they had trial a trial thing. So I went to try it out. It was fun. I like shooting games, you know, COD, PUBG, you know. >> Okay. That's your jam, is it? >> It's it's fun. So I think then having to hold the gun and kind of feel it and getting the experience. I think I was good enough, but I wasn't that interested at the point. So then fast forward to maybe a couple six months later. >> Um I got to try out Pentatlon. Yeah. >> Which is a run and shoot. So I wheeled and then I I go and shoot five shots of >> That's an old school event, but it's a great event. Well, no, when you think about heptathlon, but pentathlons, people don't know what they do, right? Because it's it's an unusual event, but it's very different because it's dynamic. >> Very difficult. Yeah. So it was just a a little adaptation to it. So it's just a run and shoot, not the full event. Um and I did that with another retired parolympian in uh she was a powerlifter and we were like how about we try this thing you know it's a fun thing that our us retired parolympians can go and do. So we went to try it out and um when I when we ran everyone ran faster than me. So they all reached the gun station first but when I reached the gun station I left earlier than some of them because I shot more accurately than the rest of them. So I think that was a a little bit of a oh maybe this could be something you know but ultimately I think it was just a feeling of um restlessness maybe I I felt like something was missing something was uh I was a bit bored at work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What what else can I do now? you know, >> but also you've obviously got a certain level of curiosity coupled with self-belief cuz most people wouldn't think, "Yeah, I I'll just go and do it on a Sunday for an afternoon, not think about competing, right?" So, tell us about where you are on your journey now with shooting. >> I've been training for about one year. >> It's only a year. >> It's only been a year. >> Okay. >> Yeah. It's it's been fun and I think I've got a lot of good feedback from coach the coach and um how I'm doing and I think the scores also as I do the national shoots. Yeah. >> Um, reflect a good trajectory. >> Yeah. >> So, I do enjoy it and it's currently just having to balance it with being a new sport and um not overpromising myself even, you know, just uh taking it slow, enjoying the sport. >> What do you What are your coaches saying? Do they think you're going to stop competing at a high level? What are they saying? >> Um, I think that's the goal. >> Yeah, baby. >> That's the goal for for sure. I think I want to if I can I think I've I've I've I've already spoken this into the universe at some point one of the interviews but if I can get to the Parolympic games in shooting that will be a dream. Yeah, >> it's amazing. I love I love the that whole visualization and put it into the universe. Um because I've always believed if you get a black belt figuratively in something it means you've reached a certain level of excellence and you take that mindset and that psychology and you can apply it to something else. Yeah, >> whatever it is, it could be cooking, it could be and I you know, a lot of people don't believe that. I feel that if you're Yeah. A lot a lot of people because being good at one thing, most people think it's that's impossible. >> But if you if you have that mindset, and I always say to my kids, if if you believe you're crap at something, guess what? You're right. You're going to be crap. But if you think you're great, you know, you increase your chances of really doing very well at something. And um what I find so inspirational about you is that you your your thought process is I can. Right. And that's that's huge. And you seem like you've had a lot of fun along the way. >> I do. >> So so break down your training because again most people when they're thinking about swimming they're not realizing like when you just mentioned those numbers >> most people still won't know. I mean you know a few people have done weights will know but you those are serious numbers you're pushing out. So breakdown how much of it was strength and conditioning versus time in the pool on a regular on a regular day of training? >> Um at at the peak it was probably um twice a day sessions two hour two hours in the morning. Um Monday, Wednesdays, Fridays are gym sessions. So three times a week uh twice a day for swimming for every day except Sundays. >> Um so I mean if you add it all up it's about 13 sessions. But in the in the middle there's of course like physio, there's nutrition sessions, there's everything. Yeah. Just to add >> Did you did you and what I'm curious about is did you find that there was an optimum in terms of your weight >> and strength? Cuz if you're if you're too big, you're too heavy, too muscular, it's going to slow you down. >> Yeah. So I I did think about that and I think coach was trying to find that balance. Uh and I said I was lifting about 60 kgs. Uh no, I was 60 kg and lifting 120. That was after. >> That's one. Please tell me it's only one rep. >> Yeah, that's one rep. >> No, I was going to say if you were banging out reps with that, that would have been even more savage. No, >> maybe. Maybe that's >> What were you doing? Like, were you doing But your normal benching you're not doing for one rep. You're doing like What were you What were you doing for 10 reps? >> Um 80 maybe. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I mean it's just >> that was normal training, but I think uh after I started powerlifting, I started gaining more muscle mass. So, before I started powerlifting, I was about 50 kg. Mh. >> So I actually gained about 10 kgs in muscle mass >> and that's not easy. >> Yeah. And it was we thought it was not going to help swimming but it turned out like it did help swimming in the end. >> Um at the I think before we did all that we thought that maybe 50 55 was an optimum number. >> Um >> but 60 was >> but 60 was apparently. >> Yeah that's amazing. >> I think it was just coupled with how much power was needed for me because I I really don't have much use of the lower limbs of there's no kicking involved. there's no um help, you know. So, it's it's really about how do you optimize the pool range, you know, the pool uh part of the race. >> Are you thinking about everything in terms of even your hand placement cuz whether or not your fingers are open or closed, you know, talk us through that cuz a lot of again a lot of people aren't thinking about these micro details. >> I mean, it's it's super technical, right? Because it's all about um even after you come up to breathe, how how low do you put your head? Yeah. >> Um, it still has to break the surface during that whole breathing cycle. Like the moment you breathe, even when you're not breathing, your whole stroke cycle, your head has to break the surface. >> Yes. >> So, it's how how high do you go? How low do you go? Your your arms, what angle is it? Do you open it? Do you close it tight? You know, >> yeah. >> All these things. And then when you when you glide, I don't have much glide cuz I don't have a kick uh part, right? But there's still a a moment of glide and you have to kind of guess or like figure it out like how much glide is needed. So I think we found out that why I do 10 strokes of no breathing is cuz the mo the moment I'm not breathing and I'm pulling is when I have the most efficient stroke. >> Um so we try and maximize that. So I do like three >> three strokes one breath because that's optimum for me. But maybe for somebody else who does uh every breath, every stroke, maybe it works for them, you know. >> Yeah. >> And also your your Boox max, your lung power, like all these things make a huge difference. >> V2 max. >> Yeah. Forget about it. >> Old term. >> Yeah, I know. I I am old. I'm turning 48 next week. Do you know what I mean? But I always, you know, it's funny because I'm still competitive by nature and I always try and get a gauge of So when John was kind enough, shout out to Mr. John Curry when he connected us. I didn't know where this was going. He goes, "What are your personal bests for lifts and I thought he was competing with me like like that's where he was coming from." He goes, "No, because I've got a great athlete in mind that I'd like you to introduce you to have on the show." >> And um but I when he sent the numbers through, he didn't tell me it was you. I thought I said, "Mate, that's you're doing phenomen." And he's a big guy, right? I don't know how tall he's a big guy. He said, "No, it was for you and your body." I said, "Oh, wow." You know what I mean? That was huge. >> Didn't know all this was happening behind. No, but that that's what happened. And then what about your your food intake? Because when you're now doing powerlifting and you're incorporating heavy training, >> your protein intake probably had to go up and stuff. Did you find that your your diet changed or not? Really? >> Not really. I think I was already quite uh protein heavy. And I think for me, because I've never really been um small or skinny really, you know, so body image issues has always also played a part in I guess my career. So there's always an aspect of um nutrition involved, right? So I I was always kind of on a low carb, high protein diet anyway. >> So there wasn't really much of a change really. >> And it worked well for you. >> Sorry. >> It worked well for you. You knew that early. >> I think it's again like if I feel like um if I'm going to training, I'm already feeling fatigued, then my my dietician will be like, "Oh, maybe you need to eat a little bit more before just before training." Yeah. >> Um more in the morning. You know, it's it's tweaking different parts of the >> Were you doing other ancillary exercises? You obviously did bench press, but what about other weight sessions when you're doing? >> I mean, I was doing pull-ups. I was doing >> I was doing >> pull-ups. You can't lie with pull-ups. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> You can't lie. They're hard. >> I I I love pull-ups. I think Yeah. I had a surgery done for my shoulder before. >> What happened? You tore it 15? Um, not really. It was just like a overuse thing. So, I had there was spurs, bone spurs, so they had to shave it down and uh fix part of it. So, when I did that, I had to recover for a few months. I actually dreamt of pull-ups. >> No way. You miss them. >> I miss it so much. Yeah. I >> That tells me you're a massochist because pull pull-ups are no joke, man. What's your personal best on pull-ups? >> Um, without weights, probably 50. >> 50? >> Yeah. >> Are you serious? I'm going home now. I'm home. But 50 50. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It was I really love pull-ups. I'm telling you. Yeah. >> You flipping must have done 50 pull-ups. That's crazy. >> Yeah. And I think it's it's just uh I mean, you're right on being a massochist. I think being part of an athlete is part part of it is being a massochist. >> You got to be You got to love the pain a little bit. You got to lean into the pain. >> Yeah. I was I remember one of the sessions before Rio. Um it was a training camp and it was the last training camp before Rio. We had reached on the first day. We usually do recovery swims on the first day. There's nothing crazy but coach that day decided uh let's do uh a heart session. I was like are you serious? And so we did a hard session and uh I was really feeling it because it's just on arrival on that day. Yeah. Um, but I remember actually thinking, you know, how do I how do I kind of change my mindset to benefit my performance and and progress now? So, I started telling myself to love the pain. >> And it Yeah. >> How did you say it to yourself? Were you What would you say? >> Love the pain. Love the pain. Love the pain. >> Just say, "Come on, Let's let's flipping do this. You're going to go like, was it that kind of savage talk?" >> It was really just just telling myself the pain is good. Love the pain. You know, but good pain. So, it's it's like the fatigue, the lactic. >> But I want to put this into context. Anyone listening to this, go to the local park, stretch first, try and do a pull-up, do one pull-up. Most people won't even get close to 10, right? >> Yeah, probably without training. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I mean, this is with training. It doesn't matter. >> Yeah. But it doesn't matter. Even, you know, I've never done 50 pull-ups. I did years of training. That's serious. I'm in awe of that. I really am. Um, I want to talk a little bit about when you finished and you're thinking about retiring because your whole identity at this point is I'm I'm a swimmer. I'm an Olympian. What are you thinking and and what's next? Like what's going through your mind? >> I think I had prepared to quit for a few months actually. Um, I remember going to one of the games and sitting in the hotel lobby and kind of writing my notes just saying I think I'm done. you know, it's it's a feeling of uh I don't think I can give anymore or it won't benefit anybody or you know, it won't benefit myself. I want to move on. I want to go try something else. So, uh I prepared for it, you know, really. I talked to my parents. I talked to my friends, like my coach. Um and then kind of really asked myself, is it really now time to leave? because I think I had tried to quit a few times before for various reasons, you know, um burnout, just tired, you know, and and then now finally actually knowing it's none of these reasons. It's just cuz I'm done. >> Yeah, >> it's time. >> Yeah, it's time. So, I I knew that it was also something that I had to prepare for because I wanted to go and work. So I went and sought like job interviews and where's the best place to be for now and uh when >> that's got to be a bit intimidating though because at that point you know you're you're embarking upon something completely different. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So how did you find what you're doing now >> currently? Um this is this is my second job. So I was at Sports Singapore my first job. >> What do what do you do with them? >> Uh Sports Singapore I wasademies and clubs like dealing with the youth athletes. >> Okay. And I I really purposefully didn't want to work in high performance uh especially in swimming I think because I wanted to kind of just remove myself from that scene a little bit um push into uncomfortable place you know and learn something new cuz again I do like learning new things and figuring out how to do my best in different roles. Yeah. So I was in sport SG for two years and it was during the COVID period I think um circuit breaker and all that everyone was at home. >> So I at some point I didn't really see my colleagues for a good 6 months. Yeah. >> Um yeah but I left and then I went to in started working at Singapore Disability Sports Council and that's where I am now. It's been what three years or something. >> What are you doing with these guys now? >> Uh I'm a path pathway in performance manager. So we do have each of us have different sports and I'm taking care of uh botcha and bminton. >> Okay. So then these two sports I manage coaching payments uh training venues how are the athletes wonderful >> sending them for competitions is really the part that >> um I get to see the other side of you know so being coming from the athlete background and then now coming to the manager background yeah >> kind of understanding what it takes to then send all these athletes to compete cuz it's not not as easy as just saying I want to go and >> there's so much work goes into it >> yeah so much admin one thing I realized is that I really don't like budgeting. It sucks, but it's it's necessary because, you know, we all have a set amount and you know, you can't just spend as you wish. >> It's hard. >> Yeah. So, >> are you are you guys indirectly involved in fundraising then? >> Oh, yeah. For sure. We >> cuz that's got to be a big challenge. >> Always need fundraising. >> Yeah. There's always money that's needed, you know. Yeah. >> Yeah. I always feel unfortunately there's there's a lack of funds going around. >> Yeah. >> You know, did you were you on a stipend or >> when I was a athlete? Uh yeah. Yeah. At some point I was a spec scholar. Okay. >> So that was a initiative that started in 2012 I think. So I I started in 2013 the second year. >> So from 2013 to when I retired in 2019 I was a spec scholar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So it's it's >> it's hard because you know I had a meter on the show meter Bertzia who's lovely lovely she's a friend of yours right you know her >> and we were just talking and and it's so hard to make amends you know sorry to make a money to get through because >> you know it's not it's not cheap if you think about you need the great quality food you're going to physio there are so many different considerations >> it's so expensive >> yeah so I do I do think the spec scholarship is really helpful cuz it takes takes a burden off us >> big time, right? >> Having to worry about money, right? But I I think we are actually really lucky in Singapore cuz we get a lot of support >> and and resources and >> it's not easy to kind of have to pick, right, which athlete gets the support and and sometimes it's really difficult as an athlete knowing you're almost there and not being able to support. >> Sorry to interrupt you. I can't remember the exact numbers. I'll I'll flag it and check it later, but I was checking that. So, I'm flying tonight to the World Championships in athletics. I think a gold medal, I think it's something ridiculous. It's like $70,000 US. That's it >> in the world athletics. >> You're like, you're the best athlete in the world in whatever your discipline is and it's $70,000. It's like, you know, how are you expecting these guys to it's not a lot of money, >> you know, to be the best in the world, right? >> It's it's like I think it's it's also the way you look when do you provide that money, right? I feel like >> Yeah. cuz you need it to train to get to the top. >> Yeah. So, I feel like even just putting in more money at a support level, >> it's more important than putting a carrot, >> you know, cuz that's that's a eventual thing that >> from that from that success, you can get a lot of uh opportunities then that come to you. Yeah. >> You know, but it's it's more important to support the way up rather than at the end. >> 100%. One of my goals of the podcast with some of the wonderful guests that I'm having on is is to raise some awareness of that and to help some young athletes because I never really got a chance to pursue what I wanted to do um because I had to earn money for the family >> and if there was funding maybe that would have been a little bit different right and I feel there's there's a lot of potential out there that is not nurtured and especially in Singapore because Singapore even though it's it's great and it's growing Sa uh in Singapore sports is not really an outlet. It's not it's not embraced because >> how many people do you know that will go on to make their career from this? >> Not many. >> Not many. Right. And and the reality is that school everyone hopefully most children will get a chance to do some sports, some music, some arts, but how many of it will translate? And I think there are a lot of people that have a lot of potential. And um I don't I don't really subscribe to oh Singapore is a small country. I'm from the UK small country. You know, Ireland, I'm halfIrish. They they produce a lot of top quality athletes. But I think if a little bit more funding and understanding and awareness is there and they should be embraced, you guys have to be >> supported from an early age, >> not just at the end, right? Yeah. Yeah. >> From Well, you can't get to the end because, you know, because you have to have a certain amount of talent, >> but you can be the most talented athlete in the world, but without the right funding, the right coaching, you can't get there. You're not going to get there. Exactly. Right. That's very clear. Um what would advice would you give yourself uh your younger self starting up in the sport with what you know now which would have impacted your first two Olympics for example? >> I think I would advise myself to have a bit more balance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's something that might have changed things. I mean to be to be truthful like I don't think I would really change anything about it. I mean it was really sad. Sure. like 2008 not getting the bronze but it really helped me set myself up for success in the end 100% >> you know so I do think everything worked out for the way it was and what was necessary um >> so what would you say to young athlete no regret of course no regrets but >> young athletes that are coming up now >> with your wisdom what would you share with them right so balance >> balance enjoy what you do really it's so important I think imagine not not enjoying your sport that would be so terrifying >> yeah so I think enjoy yourself. Um, >> but even you said earlier there was one point that you got you were doing it because you were good at it and >> Yeah, that was the early stages that when I was young, right? And I think that it's not to say that you you won't you you can't have a a negative feeling in your sport. You know, you all understand training is terrible. >> Yeah, >> training is horrible. It's it's tiring and it's tough, but there's there's a way to find enjoyment in it still. You know, at some point later on in my I would say maybe my second half of my career, I was able to find more enjoyment in the tough parts of training. You know, when you talk about challenging yourself, I I really like the feeling of uh feeling strong, lacked it, you know, after that next day feeling even better. You know, all these little things, it's it's because we go through the hard parts, we are able to come out a lot stronger. So, I would say really finding the enjoyment in the tough times. um balance, making sure you prioritize recovery is important. You know, I think sometimes young athletes are so focused on success success and that's where unfortunately that's where injuries happen big time. But you know, like now that you're a working girl, a professional, don't you find that what you've done, the excellence that you've done has has helped you in your career because there there's so many things that are translated. Share with us a few that you feel that have translated or people don't understand. I think it translates in the way of uh being able to handle things mentally. Yeah. I'm not so thrown off when things don't go my way so much. I mean, I get annoyed, but like after that, I'm like, "Hey, how do I solve this?" And I do believe that everything is solvable, you know? Everything is everything is I can deal with everything. >> Um it's just how annoying it is. >> It's fine, you know. Um I love that. >> I'm not too thrown off also by little challenges here and there. I think I I look forward to how do I prepare myself for the best case scenario. So like um it's so it's so nerdy, right? But like how do I put stuff in Excel or >> stuff that will then help me do this particular task better next time? >> Of course, >> how do I make sure budgeting is not not so much of a pain next time? You know, >> I think excellence in anything, but certainly in sports, it translates into business and life because it's discipline. you know, it's hard work. You're not afraid to do the hard work. Um, talk to me about we we both love animals and tell me about the role that you play in animal welfare. >> I I'm currently the board member in the cat welfare society in Singapore. Um, and we really aim to kind of provide support for the community cats, the humans that care for them. >> Um, legislation for cats in Singapore also. And I think for uh for me, I we my partner and I, we have uh three cats at home that we have. >> What are their what are their names? >> Sebastian, Cosmo, and Kai. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, they're all really >> Are they about the same age? >> No. Um Sebastian is >> 13. Okay. >> 12. 13. Yeah. >> Cosmo is three and Kai is about one. >> Is it correct? >> Correct. >> Correct. Yeah. >> But do you find because we've just adopted two cats. I never had cats growing up and they have become best friends >> which is so wonderful to see >> and you know the family are in love with them but we like we didn't know cats and dogs how with it how how it work >> so good together >> it actually works quite well >> especially when they're kittens or when they're young >> especially I think dogs are a little bit more forgiving >> so you have a older dog and a young kitten it's it's easy to kind of >> cats are a law to themselves they do what they want when they want you know you you can't bribe them with food. >> You're not the boss of them. >> Do you know what I mean? Never, never, never, never. >> But I think it's interesting, right, to own cats and dogs cuz they're such different personalities and in how you deal with them sometimes. >> Um, but I think my cats are a little bit different. Like some of them I have a a cat that's like a dog. >> Okay. >> And how so? >> Um, he's always asking for attention. Really? He's always at the door. Like >> that's like mine, my little one. Yeah. Yeah, he's >> and he's always uh Yeah, he's >> It's a boy though, right? >> He's a boy. >> That's what our cat our kitten as a boy is like that. >> He's funny. >> Oh, but we have all boys. >> Oh, really? It's a little different. >> Yeah. The oldest boy is is very cat-like. >> Okay. >> Yeah. He's just like, I'm going to do what I want. You can't decide for me. But the the youngest one's like a dog. >> You know, we we before we had the kids, we fostered uh cats and dogs for a while. We'd already we always had two dogs, so we couldn't keep them. >> Okay. for long periods of time. And then we gave one kitten to Tara's mom and she had her for 17 years. She passed away last year. She was devastated. Her name was Tammy. And um I just like even though there's mayhem, there's a lot of right? We wouldn't change it. We love it because they're part of the family. You know what I mean? >> I think it's so different. Some people don't see it that way. They just see it as a as a part of their house and then they can replace it or they can get rid of it like a Yeah, I don't even get that. >> Yeah, it's so it's so hard. >> I I still um I told you our dog died >> uh maybe a few years ago. Moi, she's a Shih Tzu and before before we had kids, you know, like she would sleep on the pillow next to me. She was our ring bearer at our wedding. >> The ring got lost somewhere along the way. We had to find it. I said, "Moki, where is it?" you know, but it's uh and she was given to us by a friend and I never grow up with pets and I can't imagine my life without them now. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, >> I I can't I I think it's just another being right in your house that you get to interact with. They they grow such a bond in your heart and then >> people Yeah. I don't get how people can abandon their pets. Well, it's but I I do think I do think um you know like for us I told you three of our our animals have been adopted which is pretty cool. But again, put it like this 6 months ago we didn't we weren't even thinking of adopting a cat. So there's a a neighborhood watch here and someone said they found a stray kitten >> and my wife immediately said I'll go and look after she came as soon as she came home you know her name's Blue. >> Yeah. There was no way, you know, like we all fell in love with her like that bang and then we had to find a friend for blue. But I've just said, listen, we're we're like we're becoming like Noah's Arc. We have bats that come into our house. We got chickens that come in. We don't own chickens, but it's like >> everyone's coming here. >> Yeah. It's like crazy. But I absolutely love it. And listen, I'm I'm completely converted cuz if if you said to me, "Are we cat or dog people?" We never had cats, so immediately you think dogs. But now it's like, you know, I have to be honest, the cats have taken over this household. We know who who's doineering, but um >> it's quite common. >> It's very common. Let's do a quick rapid fire few questions. Which is harder, swimming or shooting? >> Oo, swimming. >> Yeah, unequivocally, right? Different. >> Different. >> Most memorable race of your career? Is it this one? >> It's got to be. Yeah, it's got to be real. 200 breasts for sure. >> I love that. I love that. Um, in terms of your proudest moment winning a bronze medal, how how do you describe that feeling? >> Um, >> in that moment, >> relief. Really? Relief. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Crazy. >> Crazy. And just a combination, I would say. >> Yeah. >> Combination of everything falling together. Yeah. >> Which um parolympian do you most admire? >> Oh, wow. Um, I mean, honestly, I don't really have one. >> Okay, that's okay. Did you not have any heroes growing up or >> I had one like years ago. I think it was a brush stroker. I I went to Google her the other day if what she's doing. Uh she has a I think she's a Dutch um brush stroker and she had really long nails. So I thought that it would help to touch the ball. >> I don't think that was >> but long nails curve after a while, don't they? I remember. So, I mean, uh, I did I did look up to this swimmer when I was a a young athlete, but I think after a while, I I just really didn't take to the idea of role models so much. Fair enough. >> Um, I didn't I didn't like the idea that uh role models in the end are human. They can let you down, you know. So, I don't like >> role modeling of looking at role models. I I kind of modular like take modular part what they are what what I like to learn from them what I I find admirable about them but not as a person you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Just like a part a part of them. >> No listen I I it goes a long way. Um what was your pre-ompetition ritual that you would never skip? >> Cutting my hair. >> Okay. You trim it. >> I always have to cut my hair before I leave for competition. >> You felt clean, right? >> Yeah. Like fresh. That's me with when I shave my head, man. You Oh, it does, right? And I feel clean and I'm ready to rock and roll. >> It's just something that if you've done it for so many years, it's just like a ritual in the end. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I love that one. That's a great one. >> Cutting my hair. >> Have you had any serious injuries? >> Uh, only just the the shoulder injury. Yeah. >> Okay. Oh, really? That was the main one. And the back one never the tweaks never >> nothing too serious. >> No, not serious. Yeah, it was always managed by physio, by self. I mean, the fact that you haven't and you were lifting and slinging such heavy weight is impressive. >> No, it is. Most people, you know, that have done weights have had some serious injuries, like myself included. Um, what's the best lesson that sport has taught you? >> Um, it's taught me the importance of happiness. >> Beautiful. >> Truly. Yeah. >> Beautiful. I love that. Very philosophical. Um, what do you wish that more people understood about being a parathlete? Um I think I wish that people were able to see par athletes and able body athletes on a more even plane. >> Yeah. >> I think I understand how deep society's lessons or messaging has gone that it could be very challenging to see us equally. But I think I I challenge people to kind of understand that there are many ways to be just one thing. So I mean I I mentioned before um being a swimmer you know we have an an expectation of what a swimmer looks like jumping diving uh into the water how it looks how the person should look as a swimmer. >> I think I challenge them to be able to go away from that mindset and that there are many ways a swimmer can present to you. you know, whether a swimmer has no arms, whether the swimmer has no legs, whether they have one arm, you know, I think it's it's it's different ways to understand how a swimmer can look and still be an amazing swimmer. >> 100%. I love that. Yeah. There's one couple, I don't know if you know them, Tara, who's Yeah. And Hunter and um I'll get to watch her because I'll be there for that. >> He'll be there. >> Yeah, he'll be there. They're both wonderful athletes. And what I love about her is her personality is undeniable. She has so much fun >> and she's she's a shorty >> given she's doing long jump and you know some of the videos he's released with the trials and tribulations of the challenges that he faces but I just think they're a very very important couple to have in our sport >> right because there's so much to learn and and also not not just about the physical side the mental side >> so they're redefining so much in our sport >> exactly I think we won't be able to see really the impact until many years later because There's going to be so many minds changed now that we're not even aware of of little disabled kids looking at them and like, oh, what's possible? >> What is possible? >> I think it's it's going to be exciting. >> They tick so many different interesting boxes because they're a interracial couple as well, you know? So, so I think I you know, I I admire them tremendously. um strength or practice in terms of when it comes to what you're doing in the swimming pool. Did you find that the strength work was something that that you enjoyed more or practice the actual swimming? >> You're going to go strength, aren't you? >> I'm going to go strength. >> Yeah. Because the practice swimming lengths I've done it not not but it's it becomes monotonous. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's uh maybe also something that I have learned from swimming is the long boring parts are also important >> of course. >> Yeah. I think I've I spend so much time doing drills and it's like it can be two hour sessions of just >> rotating. >> Yeah. >> On your side and it's it's something that you need because after a while your body will forget that um you're consciously thinking about it. Right. It's it's a it's a muscle memory thing already. is built into your thought your daily practice but until it becomes that you have to work on it. So I think yeah I I don't enjoy the the practice of it but I really enjoy gym strength. >> Of course you do. Yeah I'm the same. I've always thought that. Um what did you think was more important in your career? I'm curious because your you are such a powerful athlete. Would you say was power or technique for you specifically? >> Technique. probably. Yeah, I would say technique because uh >> how only gets you so far, right? You >> Yeah, I can pull the water, but if I have bad technique, like it's going to go wasted, you know? >> So, I I I put a lot of effort into the technique aspect of it. Okay. >> Um there was a lot of drills, a lot of working on strokes, correction, and >> make sure everything's efficient. >> Yeah. And it's really about efficiency cuz swimming is really just how do you get from one end to the other in the most efficient way >> cuz you don't you can't waste the energy. it will go somewhere else and you won't go as fast, you know. So, it's really efficient efficient moving. >> I love No, it is. It is. People don't think they don't think of it like that. Um, growing up, if you weren't an athlete, what do you think you could have done or would have done? >> Wow. Um, >> had you ever thought about that? >> Last time I think I did, I I had a weird a weird answer of wanting to be a computer analyst. >> Oh, really? I thought you were going to say playing games or something. >> I have no idea what it means, you know. I just like the idea of the name, the computer analyst. But um later on, I think I I did think about if I was not in sport, I would want to be a cat cafe owner maybe, you know. >> Oh yeah, >> I took my daughter to one. This is before we got kittens on her birthday. And it was it's like I thought this place I've never been to a place like this. A bit weird at first because I was thinking, are you sure the cats want us to even bother with them? They were quite relaxed. But she had a fant and that's what I think led to this >> cat journey. >> The the universe spoke >> I think. So because what happened we went to the zoo >> um and it was raining >> right? It was April 21st. It was raining very heavily and my wife said I took the day off work and I to take it to the zoo and she had a day off from school and it was like okay what can we do now? And she said there's a pet cafe down the road at the rail mall. Why don't you check it out? And we went there and we had two. The only problem is I couldn't sit down on the floor for too long. I've got too I'm too stiff for too many injuries. Um but I was enjoying it and uh yeah, very very shortly after that we've got two cats. It's crazy. >> It's it's fate. >> What What do you think if you could do what like would you ever consider doing something like an endurance event or something to challenge yourself like swimming or in a wheelchair? I'm just curious. Have you ever thought about something very physically demanding that would >> be difficult for you? >> I've participated in the Viva 70.3 Iron Man. >> Oh, really? I didn't know that. Oh, you've already done it. So, you are you are unhinged. You are a bit crazy. How was that? >> Um, I I fell during the cycling segment. Okay. >> So, I had to cut off the cycling segment a little bit short. >> Scary. >> But, uh, yeah, I finished the rest of it and it was I was dying the next day to be honest. Yeah. But it was fun. I mean, it's again another way to challenge myself and knowing that I can do it, you know. >> Um, the swimming is the easiest part for sure. I think it's everything else was just mentally kind of tiring and uh, do I want to keep going? It's so long, you know. >> You know, you see, I was telling my guys, I said this, I set them a challenge a couple of weeks ago. I said to just go and walk or run 10k, >> right? It's it's it's not going to be difficult. You can do it. It's just an hour and a half, what two hours, whatever it takes. Doesn't matter. But I always think that you know great things lie on the other side of discomfort and you know when you challenge yourself you do something you realize I can do that >> and then every day you do something like that it could be you're nervous you're an introvert speaking to someone I can do that done this podcast today it was actually all right I enjoy hopefully right do you know what I mean and all of a sudden things become a lot easier and you start saying I can I can I can >> yeah I completely believe that yeah I think it's it's always >> putting yourself in uncomfortable positions that will benefit you in the future. That's that's all there is to it, right? >> I love it. I just love it. Okay. Have you read any books that have had a big impact on your life or watched any movies that you really were game changers? >> Um, wow. I haven't read a proper book in ages. >> I I try. I try. I have a >> Why don't you write one? >> That's a challenge. >> I tried writing one. Yeah. >> Yeah. But I feel like my story is not done yet, so I can't >> I love that. I love that. >> I can't write one yet. Like, >> good. Good. >> It won't be done until the end, but like >> I feel like there's more to tell, so I don't feel like I want to start the book yet. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Yeah. I mean, I just bought a Cobbo, so I I want to try and read more, but >> Okay. >> My attention span is >> It's Yeah, it's not easy. I'm dyslexic. I struggle with reading. >> Yeah, we watch more movies, but like not not really. >> Nothing one sprung to mine. >> No, not really. you'll laugh, but every time I love I love movies, but I can't watch any of the Rocky movies without crying, you know, like um but no, but I find I think we all have things music or whatever that inspires us. Did you listen to music when you were swimming? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um I mean, not not while we're training cuz we don't we can't um >> but >> like when when we are going out to the the the what do you call that? The pool deck. >> Um we have our headphones on. Yeah. Yeah, we >> but you know you know why I asked that because nowadays I'm convinced of this. Most people when they go to do their runs, their walks, their swims, >> they have to listen to music or a podcast, but music in particular. I said I say to people, you don't realize that that if you take that away doing that 10k or whatever becomes much more difficult >> and actually the beauty of doing these things is that you're one with yourself and your thinking >> and it it forces you to think and become introspective. I think that's something that people overlook, right? >> Conscious activity. Yeah, for sure. I think >> there there is like value in in kind of music while you're doing the long runs, >> but I think after a while, you do have to set aside maybe one session of pure like just uh understanding what your body's going through, >> the boredom, go through it. >> Yeah, it's it's all part of the pain. >> At least one one session. >> So, what's one thing that you perhaps wish you learned earlier in your life >> that we can teach young athletes? One thing that I wish I had learned earlier, um, >> I mean, honestly, it's just got to go back to balance. I think I wish I had known how to better balance my expectations, >> okay? >> Or balance training and and recovery. I think during the lead up to Beijing, I was not too balanced at that. Uh, it was definitely over uh done on the training and swimming side. I wasn't really understanding. I needed to spend more time with my family, with myself, with my friends. That could have helped me less uh be a bit less stressed about the whole situation. >> Yeah. No, I love that. What was your proudest non-sporting moment that you can look back on? >> Um, wow, that's tough. >> Non-sporting moment. Um I'm I'm I mean I'm honestly quite proud of the way I have like the person I am today. >> Yeah, you're very at ease with yourself. >> I am very at ease with myself and I'm proud of the person I I am. >> Um one of my moments that I really am very proud of is uh being ambassador at Pingdot in 2017. I think when I was uh in the on the stage kind of talking to the crowd, it was really emotional and it was a lot of it felt like a lot of responsibility. >> Um kind of talking to everybody on on how I was feeling, you know. And >> how long ago was this? >> Uh 2017 was how long ago? >> Seven years ago. >> Yeah. >> Eight years ago. I mean it it was just um feeling again like these were my community of people which I I almost felt the same way in my first parolympic games. >> Yeah. you know, being surrounded by disabled athletes and then now kind of being on stage with uh a group of uh in the crowd with full of uh queer people and um again people that I felt like could understand what I the person I am >> and I can understand what they're going through. >> I love it, >> you know. So, I think it was it was really I'm really grateful to be to have been chosen. >> Yeah. >> And and and not to shy away from it. Embrace it, >> you know, because you're you're a pioneer. You're a leader in so many ways. Whether or not you recognize that or not, hopefully you do. But you have a voice that resonates with a lot of people and I think it carries a lot of weight. >> I hope so. Yeah, I think >> 100%. Don't hope lean into it, baby. You know what I'm saying? >> Um, talk a little bit about things today that motivate you, right? Because so for example, you shooting, you're already thinking about Olympic glory again, right? You realize it's a possibility. >> There's a tinge. Yeah. But what what motivates you to get up in the morning to put a smile on your face? >> Um >> I think I'm I'm just I enjoy life so much. I think I >> You seem to >> Thank you. I I I said that I've I do think about death some u every day a little bit every day. Um however morbid that sounds just the idea that mortality is is so right for me. I I do remind myself of my own mortality and that life is short and and to do things with consciousness, you know. >> Um and so I I do wake up and most days enjoy looking forward to the day. >> Um good for you. >> I think I I really enjoy my work. Uh I I like my colleagues a lot. They they're wonderful bunch and I spend what most of my time at work, right? So I I do have to enjoy it and luckily I do. You know I like my my situation at work. >> Yeah. >> Um I look forward to >> bettering what I do at work. You know that kind of like feeling >> and listen you got a you got an amazing partner. You've got you know a great balance in life because why I say that is most of us at some point go through difficult times. But there was a movie that one of my favorite movies I've watched a few times recently. I think I think it's I always get the title mixed up. I think it's about time. >> It's about a father and son that can go back in time and relive each day if they want. >> I think I've I've heard of this. Yeah. >> It's an amazing movie. And what I love about it, it's I mean, it's it's it's really a romance movie, but there's a point where the boy can't the son can't go back in the morning because he's had a child. >> Okay. >> And then there's a point where his father's dying of cancer, so he can only go back one more time. But the whole moral of the story is is that you know we go through days we have bad days and in that moment when you're interacting with you know getting a coffee buying the newspaper you can just not be rude but quite a people are often abrupt with the person they're engaging with >> and you know so what he did when he got to the end of a really tough day and he survived it he'd go back and relive that day again but this time he'd interact with people in a much more friendly way and try and try and enjoy it and that what I'm trying to do at my age now is trying to bring kindness >> into every conversation. And I've I've got a no policy. >> So I try to avoid anyone that's poisonous and I'll give them a wide birth. But my goal is to engage. Hey, how you doing? You know, and and talk and um and and I think, you know, cuz when we spoke on the phone, I could it was contagious. I could hear your smile. Does that make sense? I could hear it on the phone. >> Makes sense. >> Yeah. And it's, you know, it's I'm I'm blessed. I get to meet great people like you. >> That's such a that's such a good movie, though. I think it reminds people that like even though you can see that they get a chance to go back in the movie, that's not reality, you know. So, do it now. >> Yeah. Every day is important, right? >> You know, like um I've always been quite naturally an aggressive person. >> Um and my mom died just over two years ago and this this fell just down the road is honking the horn at me like aggressively, right? And I put my window down and he's swearing and cursing me, you effing this, you effing that. And um I said to him, "Are you having a bad day?" Goes, "Yeah, I'm flipping having a bad day." Boom. Boom. I said, "I'm having a bad day, too. I'm having a bad week. My mom's just died. Should have seen his face." >> And I said, "I'm sorry if I cut you up." >> I didn't, by the way, you know, and I'm I'm a very good driver. Um and then he goes, "No, no, no." You know, and then and I it deescalated everything. And you should you should have seen his face. He felt a lot of shame, I think, in that moment. And then afterwards, I always remember one one of my best friends used to say, say, "Kill them with kindness. But sometimes in the moment it's not easy when someone's being rude or whatever. >> Um, but yeah, that's what I try to bring is that positive energy. >> Yeah, I think remembering little lessons or things that help you go through life >> the way you want. It's it's it's important, right, to remember them, but also giving yourself a bit of grace. You know, sometimes we're human. We can't always be perfect and and go and even just abide by our own rules. >> I think it's so difficult. You know, we have to >> I'm going to I'm going to play this part of the podcast back to my wife when when she's complaining about me. I say, "Listen, no one's perfect." No, but you're you're spot on. Um, what's one thing that grounds you on a tough day? Cuz you must go through tough days, right? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, for sure it's uh it's life, right? Um, >> what helps me ground myself? I think my partner helps me definitely ground. It's it's it's nice to have somebody to kind of talk to your problems about just to sometimes even not talk to your talk about your problems. But >> well, having met her, she's a ray of light. It's not, you know, there's some people have that. My wife has that as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's and I'm very grateful. I think it's just knowing that there's someone who understands um what you're talking about, what you're going through because we we live together, right? So we do share a lot of um what happens in daily life and and it it's so important to have somebody to be there and >> yeah be in your corner. >> Yeah. Be in your corner to support you and support them and back, you know. >> And lastly, what's the best advice that you've ever received? Maybe it was from your dad. I don't know. I'm curious. >> Best advice I've always remembered just this one thing that my coach used to say. Um so I have I've had a few different coaches, right? And at one point I had uh when we had volunteer coaches early days it was seven different coaches at one time. Um and then we went into competitive swimming I had uncle and then when I went to Rio I had Mick. >> Mhm. >> So really a bunch of different coaches but something that Uncle said to me still sticks to this day. Right. And it's it's just simple three words. Let it go. >> I love it. >> Yeah. and and I still remember it to this day because it's it's something that's so simple but so important. Um we hold on to things and it it drags us down a lot of times and I think something that I I find really helpful is remembering let it go. >> Did he did he write that song frozen? Let it go. Let it go. >> I didn't ask him to sing it for me. >> Listen, I can't sing. No. But and are there any projects or things that you're working on now that that you want to share with us or things that you're you're focusing on? >> Um I am I we're currently gearing up for World Parasims Champs. >> Yes. >> First time we're holding the swimming championships. The World Champs in Singapore is in Asia. Um 21st to 27th of September. >> Yes. >> But tickets are mostly sold out so you might rush. Yeah. Yeah. if you want to come and watch. I I do think it's a really really amazing opportunity to come and watch um athletes that you may not >> automatically see as athletes, you know. I think it's a great opportunity to have your mindset shifted. Um look at something new, watch something new, something that could change your life even, you know. >> I love that. >> Yeah. >> Can I ask you like are you involved? Are you just going along to champion people? Are you involved in any form or capacity? >> I'm a staff, so I will be behind the scenes. Uh we have held like world series events of uh world paris swimming uh where I was the color commentator. Um I've competed off. >> How was it being a color? It must been fun. Right. >> So challenging. >> Yeah. Scary. A lot of stuff going on. >> Talking talking talking. Yeah. And um I was usually guided by somebody who was a professional commentator. But we had to do a lot of research. So making sure you know who the athlete we're talking about. >> Kind of peppering it with uh fun facts and stuff like that. >> Yeah. But there's a lot of talking. >> There's a lot. There's a lot. >> There's a lot. Uh it's not easy. >> And then um and the thing I think people overlook because the world champs were here >> before this world aquatics. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I felt that they were just not advertised enough. >> Really? >> Yeah. 100%. Because you know I found out about it when it was halfway through >> and I just thought this is great cuz it's one of the rare events that Singapore can put on because we don't have all the the you know places to hold all these events and this is one thing that you know Singapore can do. Yeah. And it's huge. Right. So now you get a second chance. World Ferris reaps. Come on. >> I've got to I've got to I've got to get on it and book it online. It's through Cystic, right? >> Yes. Through Cystic. Okay. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I've I've absolutely loved our chat. Thank you for bringing this. You know, I've always dreamed of holding a medal from the Olympics. What a treasure. I appreciate you. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks so much. Cheers.

‍