#7 with Prashant Bhayani, CIO Private Banking: Mentorship & Communication

[Applause] [Music] hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with a good friend of mine prashan bayani Chief investment officer for BMP parba wealth management here in Asia it was a real privilege to sit down and understand his journey growing up in the suburbs of the US just out side of Chicago to his time in Northwestern University before moving to New York and embarking upon his career in banking we learned how he moved to London got his NBA in inad in a year before working at Goldman Sachs and really learning his craft after that time the part of the journey I really found interesting was when he set up his own company with a business partner before going through the Global Financial crises which led to his journey working for JP Morgan and then of course his time here in Singapore with BMP paraba perhaps the most interesting side is when we learn a little bit about his personal life what he did Growing Up from being a paper boy throwing newspapers over the white picket fences in the US to being a DJ and lastly the thing that I really found interesting was his time growing up watching basketball he was privileged enough to see Michael Jordan play Live not once but many times both in the US and in Paris thanks prashan hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did Cheers PR aan thanks so much for being here today oh it's great to be here it's beautiful morning it's brilliant you look fantastic you know I've known you for many many years and you're Benjamin Button you're Aging in Reverse you're too kind well listen well I want to just quickly go through what you're doing right now and then if it's possible I want to talk about your career Journey because you've had a really interesting and dynamic career so if you can just share a little bit with us and the audience about what your current role is please sure um I'm chief inv officer at B&P paral Wealth Management in Singapore so uh that keeps me busy during the daytime uh and I know happy to progress so let's talk about let's talk more good man so the the key thing with this podcast is really to step behind the curtain and find out about you know you not just your investment ideas now a lot of people won't necessarily know your history but can just say like where you were born because you were you know raised in the US right and India tell us a little bit about your background yeah I was uh I guess grew up bicultural my parents moved to the US uh 50 years ago and I was born there I grew up there so uh my experience in India is visiting relative so you know you go from a US suburb to visiting Bombay India so that was one extreme to the other but I enjoyed it uh and I think what I grew up in a Midwestern us town so you're kind of idilic suburb I was a paper boy uh so this is the guy that in the winter has to throw the paper and make it on the porch if it's raining uh you're in big trouble the next day you get you'll get uh you you'll get the clients complaining so very early you learn client management this did you have a BMX bike that's what I want to know yeah I had a BMX bite I had the strap when we go around in the summer it's wonderful you can you ride by and if you once you get skilled you you can throw it and boom hits the door that thud and down love it uh so but you learn very quickly you have to have a backup plan just like in W so if you're on holiday who's going to distribute the paper so very quickly you learn the reality of trying to go on holiday with your family you learn uh how to get tips because this is okay Midwest USA people are so friendly people are so nice so but when you go you had to collect the money for on behalf of the newspaper and you hopefully get a tip for your troubles but and some people can some people can't but you learn very quickly people who appreciate your work but that's it other people who who who are socialized with you but you're knocking on their door in the middle of the day so you know they could be cooking or they could be uh taking care of their kids so you it's it's like real life but you can apply it to you learn very quickly that uh how you have to do collection how you have to do service when you mess up uh and miss a house who is a new subscriber yeah uh and the next day so it but it was fun as well because it was something where you it was Pocket Change you don't have much money as a kid so you you gave you enough for your allowance now one of the things that you told me about doing which I try to do is read the room right and I remember you telling me you had a job when you were younger which really when you had to read the room well or you be booed uh yes uh well I Peak very early in life Paul I was a DJ in high school almost fell into by accident with two other people Russell and Brandon so three of us started like a turnout DJ service just because our high school how old were you I was about 16 okay thinking Fresh Prince and Jesse yeah exactly uh Miami Sound Machine Dr Dre um so uh we we played it all but you're right I like we it s i loved music I love music all kinds whether it's Jazz to you know hip-hop or whatever it is uh but at that time we were just young and we just when we had turntables this was before electronic yeah and the hardest part was at the beginning you can't get too close it'll skip yeah but you had to read the room because there might be music I like I might like Dr Dre I might like Miami s machine whatever it is but someone else might not so very quickly just like work you get instant feedback people are coming off the dance floor yeah people aren't really animated you've got to put on the music they want you got to take the requests and you got to again filter what's your filter you've got to filter the requests from everyone makes requests okay especially your friends yeah uh hey can I play this but which ones are going to resonate with the audience so we learn very quickly that okay we got a now if the volume the energy in the room just like if I'm presenting an an Outlook I'm presenting to a client or any of us all something can be a little bit off energy is low how do you reignite energy DJing was the the way to learn about that but we didn't know I was learning that then the question is have you ever done BMP parabas D and D dinner and dance no I'm I'm I'm definitely retired they I don't even I don't think they even know to ask me but uh listen I'm I'm 100% expecting at the next D and D you're going to be spinning some de okay we'll see okay I hope they're listening maybe I'll get a I'll get a quest I'm sure they'll regret it when they I don't think that this generation will like the music I play I might just play what I like did you um did you have a name yeah it was called turnabout DJ wow so did you do different gigs like B Mitzvah or what were you doing we started by accident cuz our high school we didn't have at some point we couldn't get someone and then three of us volunteered the three of us that performed the service from the same high school and then because of that it just took a life on its own like amazing other high schools in the region started asking us grade schools that I went to earlier the kids that were four years young go you're DJing here so then it took on a life of its own and then of course my parents weren't very excited they Asian parents like oh what are you doing I took all the stereo equipment blowing off the woofer and tweeters and this is again about the backup plan yeah you have to have a backup for your own speaker systems again it's just like setting up for a meeting or setting up for having the right materials it it seems easy but when you have all the equipment and something goes wrong with the equipment yeah that you can't have that so you have to have built-in redundancy but I have a limited budget so what did that mean taking all the equipment from my house my other two friends house and mixing and matching and make sure enough and then once we had raised enough money from a few gigs then we could buy more proper equipment so you have to learn your at the beginning your bootstrapping and later on it's a little bit better because you have the proper money to reinvest in a business now I'm not expecting you to comment on this but I'm guessing you also did this because you realized this was a way to meet girls well of course I'm a nerd right so there was a way to make some friends yeah so was you you definitely have picking up some subtle highlights over yeah of course just just to to to end on that note one thing that when I'm teaching people my guys in particular on sales so in sales you know you face an objection and historically a salesp person will be taught a rebuttle and I always think that's Elementary because at that point you immediately get a no so when I teach people I teach people yes platform which is an underlying where you get the person in agreement with you so what I teach people is well if you are about to present something you need to give a credibility statement that takes away the objection so if you if I'm introducing bank that's going through a mess I'll just say look this particular organization's going through a lot of challenges right now for for the wrong person they're going to say it's a mess for the right person and I believe you could be you could go in there and clean the entire business up and turn it around and that point the individual is saying yes they're nodding and they're going through the the whole flow process why I mention that is if you've ever watched 8 Mile with Eminem ah okay when he's in his final rap battles he basically cures himself saying look what are you going to say about me me and then he says everything that that guy can say takes it away and he he disarms the person so it's quite quite interesting right no you're right I mean that it's things like that you don't know growing up what you're learning when I was a paper boy or DJ but then later on you you quickly learn because you get instant feedback from the audience so that's a very tough tough job but like you said uh these performers now and like talk about Taylor Swift I think we avoided a a recession in Singapore because of Taylor Swift for a quarter um um so but now it's just it's on a different level and people they have a social media profile and they give the the they're starting vodka brands and that's just it's it's incredible what the entertainment because the influencer and social me media and in our day okay the we we had Michael Jackson Prince and and and the Rolling Stones but but but obviously Rolling Stones predate me okay so be careful that but uh but but in in general it's it's it's it's uh profiling the media side there a lot of things you can take away for business well well you know the interesting thing is cuz I've met a lot of Bankers that you know talk well bit of smack talk but it's not really smack talk like like on the football field or you know when I did martial arts and combat there was a lot a lot of banter and and in the US and in the UK there's so much ban so I worked on a building site and you couldn't you couldn't turn sideways you you couldn't miss it it's like dart's been thrown you constantly and that that's a good training ground for private banking I would say yeah and and you and you're right because that B how you connect is really important and like you said culturally like so whether you're us UK Singapore Asia um that ability to connect with people is something that it's it's it's essential but it's not always easy you've got to find a way but you also to be authentic to yourself yeah cuz people see if you're not authentic so I think if you can find a connection or you can just find really what what's this person interested in but I think that is something which is definitely EQ is so underrated in our business yeah in life how is Chicago during the winter because I've been there you know in September time and it was a bit Breezy but I can't even imagine yeah Windy City yeah I mean it's of course it's true Four Seasons I think reputation is of course the winter and cold winter wind off Lake Michigan Chicago be football uh but so that can be pretty rough but it's sunny in the winter so I lived in the UK a long time so it's slightly grayer that's one difference and the other thing is that the true Four Seasons so summer people have their boats on Lake Michigan and they're doing lots of stuff Outdoors so it just depends what time of year you visit did you ever see Michael Jordan play oh yes I did uh really I was uh how many times just one times well oh that's a good that's a good question U so when I was in universi as I was University near Chicago uh me and my friends and I'm a huge sports fan huge basketball fan and of course I was at the right time right place Michael Jordan in Chicago amazing we camped out all night to get season tickets wow and then we're college students so we resold some to pay for the get our money back and then we use the rest to go to games so uh we went to a number of games during the years and I watched all 82 games of the season they won their first championship in my last year that's amazing I guess I didn't do much studying but did you watch the last Dons by the way absolutely brilliant right absolutely and during Co it was the perfect time turn on TV you know we've always known how amazing he is but when you peel back and find out the killer that he truly was and uh his Killer Instincts really amazing you arguably the greatest athlete of all time right yeah in my books that's an easy one but yeah but know he's a real character and you see you learned a lot of that about someone that you never knew even though with all the newspaper coverage all the Press coverage during his career but that was pretty intimate well you know when when I went to Chicago last we um we would doing the architect kind of Tour on the river yeah and um a stealth bomber came over us and it was it there was there was a big game on and it was quite scary because for a moment you didn't know what it was and it was amazing I'll never forget it it was have you ever seen one there and it dur in the US yeah I've seen the sub yeah it's it's amazing right absolutely beautiful so you grew up in a suburb right doing the paper round and then how did you decide what you wanted to do at Uni because you went to Northwestern yeah um I think when I was there I was I did have an interest in business or Finance or certain degree but I had a classic liberal arts education I everything from intro to Buddhism to calculus and what I loved was taking a lot of different subjects it makes you more of an allrounder do you think that works because I know in the US Visa the UK that's the system and it allows you to find yourself a little bit right no you're right I think it's really if you know what you want to do early yeah it's okay even in the US system you can specialize but not as much as the UK for example where of course I'm aware of uh so it depends but what I liked is for example if you took intro to Buddhism and you took calculus you took philosophy there's a lot of things that about you know thinking outside the box Making Connections you don't think we there till you take it so it depends on your also your interest but often sometimes you don't know at that age what you're interested in you can take a course I remember there's a Prof it can be the professor if the professor's good you're interested in the subject if not be interesting subject you're not you're not there but I think the flexibility played to my uh interests which is I'm interested in quite a few things maybe outside of just my degree yeah which was economics so I mean in fact normally when we talk we really don't talk about work or business we talk about other things right so what did you study at University yeah so I was economics major okay uh so that was my major but then you always good at math um I enjoyed it I would say I what I enjoyed is the Practical applications of it okay when as you you know cuz there's a theory and there's a practice so that's what I got out of it but I think you know but I I loved my like I was saying entered a Buddhism course or I loved my um other courses that were there that were outside European civilization I like history I like political science so I think it was that mix of things but of course in the end um I think economics I didn't have you couldn't take undergraduate accounting or some things like that which a little bit more in my mind mundane you can learn that on the job later perhaps true it's very useful so you're behind if you don't have that don't get me wrong but I think uh that economics gives you that grounding especially if you're working in a in in in banking so once you finished New York Beck and did it yeah New York City the big city so I came from a small town in New York I still remember Landing uh what year New York oh 1991 why I ask is because New York back in the day was very different very very different right yeah it was uh I mean I still remember coming across Brooklyn Bridge sting you know hearing the music and you're arriving in New York well you I really arrived but I think what was unique about it was just the diversity and the people and you know you come from people come from all over the world um and all kinds of backgrounds not just banking but art you know art you always got an edge music yeah it really has an edge to it is it if I said you what were your top three favorite cities oh what'd you go with it's a tough one because I have a lot of I have a lot of them come on give us a few no it's plus as in minus I would say of course I Love My Hometown Chicago but I I I I do like New York and London I think they they're connected in in in interesting ways in terms of the diversity in terms of people you meet in terms of culture arts um CU you can be working in a bank but you can be doing something really interesting you know you could be watching reggae music on a Sunday night at 3:00 a.m. if you want in New York city so um that's what I loved about it but it's really the people yeah but that's why Singapore is interesting because this place is also uh a mange of different cultures uh so you know different cities have different positive but London also became a second home to me as well I know I know we'll come into that well the thing they talking about Singapore what I love now is because for a long time what I love about London and and New York is that if you want to go and watch a play I love I love plays right you can nearly always find a star in Broadway Off Broadway right and in Singapore we haven't had that recently but now they're starting to you know like Taylor Swift was here for however many nights and so on and so forth um so when you arrive to New York right City Bank uh Chase Manhattan Chase okay apologies Chase okay and how did that come about how do you decide going from economics into banking I was lucky enough to get there was it was a rough time then we were coming through a banking crisis back then and uh but I was lucky enough to get into a corporate banking training program at Chase Manhattan okay and what Drew me to it was really like you know I trained with people from all over the world from UK Europe France and they were all based in New York for a year so um it was really that exposure of rotating on a bank and the international exposure as well so I remember because they introduced us to other people in the program before we started cuz we need it say New York City the rents are high right so you want to find a flatmate so I met my flatmate on the phone this is before video calls and he had an image of me coming from the US yeah Midwest but I probably did I definitely didn't fit what he thought and I had an image of him he's from Paris okay uh France and when we met we're like hey but we just hit it off right away we lived in Park Slope Brooklyn uh we shared a a house there small house that the we took over from the prior analyst class I was gradu okay he's one of my best friends till now amazing right I worked with him another company in London later so it just shows you the you know how you build you know how you don't know how life which way the life twist and turns but that was that was uh the most stimulating with those friendships that you make early on they tend to last right because because you're both in the same boat you're up and coming um yeah brilliant and then yeah I mean it's also you know it's that common moment in time it's like yeah right high school or certain moments in life well you're in a training PR together you went through certain experience together it's your first time in the Working World and you just formed those bonds uh and those formative years right so talk what happened after that yeah so I was interested in Asset Management so I I worked in fixed income asset management for several years which I enjoyed you know I was there when the bond market blew up last time we had interest rate Cycles a long time ago uh but importantly that firm had an opportunity to work in London okay and I always I've been to London as a tourist but never worked there but I was intrigued by it I had a French roommate so I had already friends in Europe yeah so again looking back I didn't think about it that way but maybe that played into it yeah how old were you I was 24 25 cuz cuz cuz why I asked that question is is um I I tell my kids this if you don't seize the opportunity to move abroad when you're young it may not happen because you know you you you sewed down seeds and what have you so okay so you were how did you feel were you nervous or anxious about going over no it's mixed cuz you have a lot of friends you have your whole social life set up somewhere and you go somewhere where okay you know a few people you can meet people through work so you met people through work but I'd say again those the the Europeans that were in my program at Chase Manhattan that now were all over Europe uh were some of the people they come into London one moved to London that good friend so later on so then through friends of friends I started making quite a few friends but the first 3 six months they like what did I do it's Friday night I'm sitting at home alone because you don't know you have to make Tak a little time to make a friend Network for sure so uh but then you know it it it uh it started changing so tell us about London the job yeah so with London I think the job was interesting because there was a time when London was I mean if you remember London then uh this was cool Britannia Oasis blur it was a real change where London was booming yeah a lot of Europeans were coming to London to work in Banks and Consulting other places so it was a really interesting time and for my career it was more like at that point in your career especially earlier on it was like do you almost had to go do an MBA at that point in banking was almost like you go to NBA and come back so it's like okay where do I want to do that I had gone admid to some us Business Schools before I went yeah but then it changed me being in London I'm like if I go to us business school just like you said if you don't go to Broad early it a little bit tougher as you get older um I made a decision off G I won't go I'll apply and I went to inad because I wanted to go back to London and stay abroad at least at that time and my parents thought I'd be back in a few years but uh but that that that's really the change that happened that's a big decision right to to stop working for a year dedicate yourself how if you don't mind me asking how did you financially you know bankroll that and yeah it's really it's what between New York lond you don't have that many savings at that age but you have a bit of savings but then of course you student loans and other things that you take on um the good news is that you know you have time to pay as you know to pay back or you can hope that it gets forgiven uh these days but we didn't have that option but uh inad is actually a one-year program yeah so actually from a from purely that perspective it's actually a little bit less in terms of time well it's maybe maybe it's a full circle because obviously they've got such a big base now here in Singapore right so okay and then how did you find that whole NBA experience was it worthwhile would you recommend it for other people oh red wine yes really no it was really staling what I part of the reason being abroad and going inside was they said had no more at that point 10% from one country so no culture dominated was so International that's why I loved about it so the Brit I think the English British were the biggest Class A little over 10% French that Americans I have Lebanese friends Dutch friend every from all over the world Brazilian so that's what I really enjoyed about the most second thing was it was your last chance to feel like you're in college again a little bit older because it's in a small town called Fontan Blau in France which is the only real famous thing it was there's a hunting LOD of Louis the 14th there yeah but students live in like a 20-minute radius a lot of times in Old Country houses um that have been rented out some lived even in chatau they there people that are prober cash poor but they rented out a small wing like the for on the cheap because were students yeah so the parties you could have and the social life was was really fun at the same time it was intense because you did a 2-year MBA in in in less time yeah uh but then it's you know you could every few months we'd go to Paris for a night out I I remember the Chicago Bulls visited so I was there when that happened wow but so that mix and then and you can get on the Euro store hop around London or go to Spain so that was the fun part but it was it was a lot of work of course intense right very intense but again is full circle because then you ended up working with the French bank but but um so then continue your journey after that your next gig which was was a fantastic one yeah so then I moved uh I had always interested in stocks and equities and i' worked on my current fixed income uh and so I came out of in seatt enjoying Goldman Sachs Asset Management I was in the buy side in in equities and at that point was that real coup for you I mean getting into Goldman yeah I mean it was a it was a privilege because you're buy side is actually a relatively small industry it's scalable right if you manage 5 billion you don't need that much more money to manage five 10 billion or 20 billion so yeah so and it's a more specialized job search so if you're looking in Investment Banking or you're looking in Consulting there were many more hires you had to do more of an independent job search uh I was fortunate they actually came to our campus and I still remember because the the partner that was running uh fixed income then I saw my resume and put me my CV and said oh fixed income but I told him in the interview you got to take a chance because I could have played that and said okay maybe I'll get to the next I said listen I'm really enjoyed that time that gave me the macro grounding I understand interest rates Economic Policy but I'm actually interested in moving to equity fun he actually was proactive he recommended me for that group fantastic so then I then of course you go for the all the interviews in London and all that but you need to have also someone that has that Vision yeah and that told me something about the culture well their culture really is quite amazing right they they look at the individual and and think how can this person really Excel right cuz I think in a lot of organizations you have to fit within a role right but but I think we're Goen them their psychology is very very different yeah and it was also that individual he he had the vision maybe someone else wouldn't have you know so sometimes you have to play to you know you have to take a chance but of course he was there but I think you know now these days I think that's more common I think um people there's more Mobility now do you do you find I mean this is a bit of a generalization but there's a big difference in terms of personalities typically between a fixed income practitioner an equity practitioner an FS practitioner you know you found that yeah I mean I think if you're thinking about equities it's about stocks it's about stories it's about management you're investing in companies what's their competitive advantage and that's a very different process in analyzing the FED minutes and you're looking at interest rate differential so there there are some similarities in terms of doing analysis but the but in terms of equities is it's much more idiosyncratic yeah because you can have a stock that blows up you know 30% uh on in the same industry but but on interest rates policy of course you can have volatility that but it's it's a different Dynamic uh and it's a different Rhythm but you're right and there were there are few people that moved between it was for me it was almost it wasn't necessary planed I me in economics and I was just in asset manager so fixed income made sense but then over time I got more interested in investing in stocks so it really depends on your interest it does well actually I mean we'll come back but I digress but five of the family offices that I've worked with on average about 70% of their holding are in fixed income and um you know when they've come to me and said look we want to hire a CIO or a head of investment um but typically when I met with the owners of the families they're enamored with what a banker is or an investment counselor is yeah and and I said actually based on what you shared with me I actually think you need to hire a product specialist and uh I I said look do a litmus test and you can find out you know technically what you're looking for um and also I tend to think most Bankers may not want to be in that role because they like been out there and meeting different clients vis a product specialist so it is interesting um so Goldman unpack that so you're back in London now right yeah yes so um you know you I joined as an associate so you're you get some sectors to cover to chew your teeth on and um it's hugely humbling because there's nowhere to hide yeah uh you're owning you know over time you get the trust of the senior PMs and you're you're you're given a sector to cover uh and then they will eventually they'll Grill you on the companies you built models uh you seen the man cover the first one they I was a fixed income guy so they gave me utilities okay uh but then I was fortunate and that's made me again it's about being an allrounder I think so I covered then Telecom I covered energy Telco back then was you know the big one right yeah and then we had the internet bubble I still remember some Echoes now but it's different where you have the huge concentration of the market I remember Cisco at that time so that was an amazing time but it was hugely humbling as as well because you come in in the morning the European results are at 8:00 a.m. or some of the international results you have to come in early update your model be ready and then you are grilled on that stock by the senior portfolio managers and and they smell BS a mile away so yeah and and it's about judgment it's about Shades of Gray it's not this is not like school yeah and you could be owning 200 300 million pounds or dollars these companies uh and it's how you think on your feed how you react how you follow up uh and it takes time because uh investing is also experience matters I I'm not a big believer that you need to have a certain amount of years yeah uh but at the same time you know like for example I invest you know I remember one of the first names I looked at it was a utility so it's Bor a relatively stable industry not that volatile and bought a interesting company for the portfolio was performing well then the regulator changed the tariffs yeah so you have to then it's really how you deal with that volatility uh and of course the PMS have gone through these things but uh they see very quickly your mindset well I think when you when you're you know whenever we do senior placements the reality is if someone hasn't been through two or three recessions you you've got a question you know what their knowledge is and how they tackle those problems do you know what I mean I'm curious did you have any mentors during your time at Goldman you do I mean I think how did how did that work yeah um I think I was fortunate that one of my uh one of the senior PMS uh eventually became my manager but it was mentoring me before and uh is it an official thing or does someone say look or you go to someone and say look can you Mentor me how does it work that's a good question in at that time I remember when in your social PR you did have some mentors assigned you but this one was I you found out just through relationship common interest it's it's a good question Paul because I enjoy mentoring I was mentored but you also people are flattered if you ask them people want to give their time they don't know that you may want guidance so with you know you know with this individual he he he was always coaching me I I also needed I also needed Improvement but it was beyond just work it was about other things it has to be but I think that the the challenge with finding a really good Mentor they have to like you and care enough about you to be honest to spend time with you and it was funny CU you know I was a massive fan of Kate Kid 1 although I actually watched Karate Kid 2 first because I was quite Young when it was released and it's it's 40 years you know thisal Macho yeah Ralph Macho waack on waack off but I remember when he miss Mr Miyagi basically put the bandana around him and he said look this is what I expect from you this is the commitment um and and uh I think if you get a great mentor it can change the entire landscape of your career and how you navigate it no I agree I think it's that direction it's the coaching it's it's it's perspective because you may be reacting to feedback and over analyzing it then it under Minds your confidence or it may be you're looking for Mobility uh but you don't know how to start because it's not easy because you're in a group how do I start how do I start that Journey how do I form the network yeah at least they tell you for the culture of that organization how to do it or networking people you mean you looking to make a move outside into a different role so so this person who was the the senior PM that became your manager did you ask him or her or or did it just happened very naturally organically it if it was earlier on it I'd gone to him for for counseling and for advice and then and then become my manager is a different relationship of course yeah but I think at that point i' taken what he said and I of course you have other people that you you you would ask for advice and I think over time the the best advice was if you can compliment your manager uh whether you like that part of the rule or not it makes you more valuable y so that's something I I realized that and then I realized I could cu he's a very good investor um how do I make his life easier because he wants to focus on the portfolio but we also have to grow a so I could help with the marketing side as well as well as management before to find balance so then you start you have to you know walk you just there's there's there's talking the talk but you got to walk the talk yeah so that that helped uh but also um he it helped that he was well regarded in the film yeah he had Mobility he had Mo he had Mobility options with him okay okay because sometimes you're waiting for RO uh responsibility to come come up so again moments and time actually talking about that is really good advice a lot I would say uh the vast majority of the senior people that we placed you put them into two pockets two camps it's either they're very complimentary right they'll get along with the other existing senior practitioners and they'll get things done or you have a Mercurial kind of individual is going to go out and drive and push the business but it it tends to be one or the other so so Goldman and then after that what happened tell us a little bit about that part this is the part of the journey I'm really interested okay sure I'm showing my age now Paul I think uh you still got all your hair um so I had managed long only money for uh for almost 10 years yeah and this is sort of 2006 2007 I thought about I'm going to do something different where were you living in London by the way oh okay all over the place what what were your key places different places so I first when I first moved before even B was was with a so I was in in South Kensington so I was very fortunate I didn't realize how much um but then later on I lived in that area but then baywater okay ning Hill yeah uh fantastic uh and then later on uh eventually I moved back to uh South Ken Chelsea and then when we had kids I went to nappy Valley so baty okay and Clapham yeah my mom and dad met in Clapham and it was uh it was a hole back then but it's become somewhat gentrified I don't know if you know this I grew up up in South oh you're going south okay and um on my street there were 110 families um and there were only two non- brown fames there was a Jamaican family in my family you going south you like Indian food and Jama food and others well you have to right funny enough I could never deal with spicy current more or less recently um but okay and then why I ask that question is most people from London don't live in central London so they you know I always had an hour commute and in fact when I chose my University this is crazy but I chose my University based on proximity and it was cheaper for me to go from zone 5 to zone six than it was from 5 to one I couldn't afford to go to Zone one yeah and that that that's that's terrible right and I always looking back I I shouldn't have even thought like that but at the time when you've got come from a very humble family you know so when you talk about getting the Euro star and what have you I had never traveled in Europe until quite recently when I grew up in in the UK I had apart from going to Ireland I didn't see any of it so but you made the most of your time there right yeah I mean I think it was the experience of like you said um you know you like when I came to that point in my career I was in London enjoyed it you're managing International equities um Alternatives were growing yeah and I had interest on the long short side yeah hedge fund side 10 years on this side yeah and uh I was lucky again this about relationships I came over the wall at Gold Goldman Goldman had a big tradition of people spinning out the launch head funds um a lot of alumni uh and with a co-partner who also I'd met earlier in my career at Goldman who was part of the same associate program who moved on to another D to work at a uh alternative firm we we co-launched a firm and Goldman we became a client so I left on Good Times and became a c of the slow down because you just said that in a quick sentence but that so how did you guys even commence the discussion did you sit down and say Hey you know let let's look at this I'm just curious because that's a big thing right you're young still how old are you um I was about yeah 36 when we were thinking starting to lay out the plans um I would say what happened was we could see a cycle was coming we knew that hedge from a risk adjusted point of view that we wanted to really explore the intellectual side also of shorting stocks of going long and short and risk adjusted return and we saw opportunity and we were stop Pickers so if you can express that both long and short you can you can actually add a lot of value yeah uh and frankly it was something when you've managed long only that time it's a new challenge for me it's about a new challenge improving it now and the fact that you could do it with someone that you've met before that had worked and and and and also in the same indust did you because because you know I had a business partner and we we were very close friends and one of the main reasons why I decided to go into business with he already had set up on his own and I had to persuade him to bring me in and I took him out for a meal I got very drunk he's M so he doesn't drink so I don't remember that evening but apparently I sold him on it but one of the things you had a good good chat yeah he said he said the next day he text me goes I'm in I said in what he goes you don't remember anything to you I said no but hopefully it was good but so when you did that and you made that decision you know were you thinking how's this going to work how are we going to fund it there were butterflies I mean uh we were the key thing was the funding so we knew at that point hedge funds were already mature during this 2006 2007 so if you were not above 50 million day one you weren't going to get the kind of investors that within 612 18 months to be 1 billion 2 billion and you you knew that we knew that okay and we were fortunate that we came over the wall and then we were we through we met we went we met Cedars okay and we're fortunate enough to get $75 million locked in three years from a cedar so we could actually build a sustainab recruit the right people not knowing the GFC was coming but we so that gave us the confidence like you said I was in a good place he was in a good place but we knew we had to have that if we didn't have that then okay then you have to look at other do you do you consider doing it at the firm you are because the firm was toying with that idea and how did you come to the name Cork Street ah we were very unimaginative so it was at M C Street is a May in Mayfair as you probably know a lot of art galleries and eventually we we we we thought that we love the street we love the area has an impact right so we said to name it that after that after the street yeah so that's that's where the local bar was on that's where you made your decision well eventually yeah we we we we we were fortunate that we we found a space there for a startup uh so how was the transition from going to to being an employee to employer and a and a businessman it was a big transition so you're you're you know they they say the proverbial you're plugging in the socket and you turning off the lights at night but you are doing that so you have to be comfortable doing things that you don't have to face when you're at a larger uh company yeah um but it's also a little bit um liberating because you have an influence on what's important but within a different scale um so it's it's like pluses and minus and then you got to play to your strengths and then we hire you know you got to hire people that are going to complement you so if you're but you know we have to do all the regulatory you got to get the regulatory sign offs you got is a huge amount of uh paperwork huge amount of presentation um you got to raise capital that that's the thing I think when you run a business people it's the same with being a private Banker right if you're in in many ways if you're a private Banker or if you're a lawyer you're being paid to work with a client or as a banker to manage the money but the reality is if you're not a great salesperson you can't bring the clients through the door you can't do your job and and you know if you're running your own business that 10x because you're having to raise funds right um the regulatory side of things so how how did you balance all of that yeah so the the key was that the ceding was key because then it gave us we we had the business visibility okay we knew what Break Even was so we could hire we could be properly institutionalized day one you know seven eight people office manager research where was your literally literally on that's K Street Capital yeah so we were literally in in Mayfair so you could launch a day one business um and I think after that it's was really about getting the right people but it's also about building the business raising capital and then of course we had you know of course you you you have a you have a uh we had a cycle we had a major change in the cycle so go through what happened next yeah so I mean you know it was surreal because GFC we really no one's really featured something like that in terms of the banking system is a Great Depression so there was no playbook for people who were working then uh no one it was horrific what really was bad yeah and it was horrific because you know I know a lot of friends in the industry um so it was horrific for everyone you know we didn't know you didn't know at that point your carent party is going to be around yeah uh for a period of time at the extreme when we're talking about August September October of 2008 yeah so you're trying to manage the business you've got a personal life you've got a family you've got uh a financial crisis so uh you new dad at that point were you yeah I already had yeah I had already I already had a girl that that changes things cuz all of a sudden you're thinking Beyond just yourself obviously correct and and and it's it's you don't you know you're you're literally it's your business so you don't leave it you're home and you're thinking about it well funny enough that you mentioned this because when I uh set up my own business um BNP Parable was my client at the time and uh Michelle lini have you ever met Michelle I have not actually he's a fantastic practitioner he became I think the CEO of BMP in age at 38 very Dynamic Guy and um I I told him I'm setting my own firm um but the likelihood is that my boss is going to assume me and um I'll stay out of the game uh but it'll take me another s months and he said no I I want to work with you now because this is the time we need to grow and um I said well you know I don't want to go to court with this and I'll just you know do something else and he said look come and work with me as an independent consultant to the bank and um he said come up with a proposal and we'll find a way to work together and I will forever be grateful and um I just think sometimes when you're honest and you are facing difficulty times if you reach out and you speak to people it's it's really very rewarding right because they can see that that you know I was young I was like 27 28 up and coming and um so that was my the beginning of my relationship with uh BMP parot but okay so so then you guys decided to to call it a day yeah so really came out of the coming out of great great financial crisis I mean it was you if you if you remember then a lot of the we were relatively liquid strategies so a lot of the other strategies had gated the much bigger funds and all that so there was no liquidity uh and at that point your you know the timing of the seed and are you at critical mass in terms of AUM yeah no one could have banked on a GFC happening we held our own during the downturn but we you know before if you launch an 05 or 03 you could see a path to getting 1 billion two billion we had colleagues ex colleagues that were 3 billion in AUM in 2007 who launched for example in 2003 or something like that and so but by but the launch date in terms of the timing for that was definitely uh you could not get to that critical mass and the vision that you wanted to be that that critical mass is interesting because even like in private banking people say if if Boutique Private Bank in Asia doesn't have this much they're going to struggle right so it's interesting how these numbers are formed and how it all works and what the cost income ratio is so so then you said hey look this isn't working got to draw line in the sun now yeah it was really about yeah taking a step back and say what do you want to do because coming out of you you couldn't simply you know in terms of the vision so then I took we took I took a step back uh as my co-partner did as well and um what do I want to do and um what I took a step back I realized I did enjoy being in what what I enjoyed about the entrepreneurialism being your own business I also enjoy if you can do that at a institution with the structure and that point it was uh I had looked at different things I took my time uh and I was actually moved to the wealth management side and had opportunity to come stay in London which was my original goal I had no intention of coming to Asia at that point yeah and then an opportunity came up in Asia so then okay growth in Asia the story growing a business the excitement of kind of wealth generation here and also the fact that you can add you can add value here because um of the M industry maturity just starting yeah in terms earlier in the path so that Drew me to Asia my from Singapore so that made it easy I used to come here every year so I knew singap but it's different when you live somewhere than where when you visit for sure and then end up coming here in 2011 brilliant and he never left yeah still here still here at your place now yeah so so when when you decided to move to Singapore did you have a clear understanding of what the next five to 10 years may look like career-wise in your own mind like wealth management was the space private banking or yeah I mean I think weal man I knew I mean you knew the structural story you know especially the fun knew about wealth manager story in Asia was very strong you you knew Singapore was heavily invested in making this a hub right Singapore of course major Hub um and also puts you in with the right you know like you talk about family office a little while ago obviously we've seen how that's changed over the last you know how much that's grown here yeah so um I knew it was in the right place uh in terms of it's also about finding your place within that so that's great but it doesn't guarantee you know success or satisfaction so it's also about how do I apply at that point I'd been a buider fund manager also fixed income but also run my own business on the alternative site and I think I realized a top- down ass allocation investment strategy role which I'm doing now at BNP um you can really bring those experiences to clients and make it real because wealth manager is about relationships about stories it's about it's not about when you're managing for for institutional client it's about people process philosophy yeah they make the decision on the allocation they have their own ass allocation for here you're doing you're building it all and I'll never underestimate that The Human Side of the business because in wealth management uh it's not necessar what I want to talk about yeah it's about what they want to talk about may maybe a succession issue which could affect how they're going to manage their investments in their business in their family business right so you have to be a good listener that's the key and I think I realized at that point I finally become maybe I I can listen a bit uh at that because I've gone through Cycles gone through experiences and I thought what liked about this business it's a people business yeah well that's the great thing about private banking because you could have a client who who owns owns a rubber Plantation a shipping magnet you know it's it's so diverse right really interesting and look you've worked for some great organizations so JP Morgan yeah so I originally moved here with them and of course um I that's when you know the the Asia was starting to grow out of course uh not just there but a lot of band but they gave me the opportunity to do it and um I think really what I takeen from there is it was the first time I worked in wealth management day-to-day so when I was in Asset Management I had a third of my Assets in of wealth management clients and channels but it's different I service that asset with very different to service institutional pension clients very different but I think on this it was really about the experience of really frankly you're in a new culture new place just like when I moved to London so similar things you're out of your comfort zone but then that makes it exciting you Indonesia you've got Thailand you got all these places with different uh types of businesses different Industries different challenges yeah um so it was really the introduction to that that was most valuable and then um of course the culture of the firm getting responsibility they you know I think them seeing that I actually had a little bit of different perspective not better or worse just different it's different um coming from my background I was able to leverage that you know there when I was there so I enjoyed that and I think that that's the key is can can you have managers that can recognize that yeah well I think what's interesting about you is even though you're American you know you've you've actually not worked in the US for that long and I know quite a few people like that you're really very very very International um and the other thing about what I've learned in in in the last maybe 15 17 years in private banking you have to adapt because you know you had the tax amnesty in Indonesia you had um 1 MDB and what have you so you have to swivel you have to Pivot um and then how did BMP parabo come about out and and uh you know how does it go from what you work for some major US Banks to a French Bank yeah I finally get to use my French uh or practice by French G took growing up um I Had A View to build I really want to build a CIO office okay um and you know when I met senior people at you know B&P they had the similar vision and they wanted to invest in it and obviously given the diversity of the business strength of the business which I knew very well just being in the industry but it was about the people so when I met the people when I met when I saw the vision and I saw there was obviously um there was a lot of support for it um it made it it made it pretty compelling yeah so that was that was really what it was I want to build a CI office proper one investment build investment culture in an organization because I felt at that point of my career that's what I can give in terms of as an added value the most well well I feel that unequivocally the CIO has got to be one of the top three if not the top face of the bank in many ways right because you're a voice to the bank and but what's interesting is that the role of CIO varies tremendously from bank to bank right and the setup so just just give us an overview of of how your department is set up and and Reporting lines and and really what's the essence of what it is that you do now sure so um in my in my role and it varies by Banks I've seen it is the CIO cross advisory and our discretionary businesses yeah uh and that asset allocation that the that we develop and I sit on a global team so uh that's done at a global level uh with my colleagues in Europe that ass allocation of straty flows through the entire business are you speaking to these guys in French by the way well the the first few calls I I did tell them I went to inia stuff and uh then then they're oh we'll go to we'll go to French but of course I told them well I can understand but I won't be asking that many questions and I might be a bit delayed uh so but it helped it helped frankly to integrate uh being working in Europe and having lived in France speaking some French but um no it's in English um but in in the banks very Global so of course uh there's quite a few people there others that want to English but so that that helped and I think when I when I think about the setup your question is it's really across the business what I like is the ability to have an impact across the business I work with our heads of fixed income our heads of equity our heads of FX our head of DPM our head of funds selection so you can make an impact across the business so you're almost like a you know you want to build a perfect sule if you're going to use a French analogy analogy so you're trying to do that and so of course sometimes it can get a little burnt all can be raw But to answer your question on the interaction yeah I mean I sit in office but I probably annoying for my colleagues but I do I'm out and about because if something okay we may have a view on fixed income but I want to know what's happening in the new issue market so I talk to our fixed income or I'll talk to our inv counselors counselors are the ones that also are making the Sul for clients and what you know what what are they seeing what are they hearing what's working in terms of the recommendations well think about the investment counseling function it's probably about 15 years old and I remember in fact I helped BMP set it up and um at the time with Sebastian masay was running the department and um I remember at the time Bankers hated the notion investment counselors because they were worried about anyone else speaking to their clients I think it was clear that all the banks wanted to impart better service to clients to institutionalize the clients and now in most private Banks I think maybe 60 70 maybe even 80% of the flows are facilitated through the investment counseling function it's quite interesting so you'll sit down you'll walk the floor you'll speak to those guys and then then you speak with your counterparts globally and then you exchange ideas or you share with them what's happening in Asia sure it's Global yeah so I speak to my saying on the globally on the cios side of course because there's a network across uh the world uh of senior people uh but then of course I'm based in Asia so it's how do you take that strategy and how do you make it relevant yeah for clients here because it's a different level we want to build discretionary assets but it's a different level of penetration than it is in Europe or the usely so so so that it's it's those kind of challenges it's more first generation wealth moving to second or third here while there's a more of a mix in other places so it's it's adapting that but frankly this business is I could I could you you can sit and be an ivory Tower write amazing research that no one reads yeah so if you don't focus on communication you don't focus on whether whatever the vehicle is podcast notes outlooks webinars but frankly it's also being available for meetings so one of the things you know I I try to make myself and I you get brought to a lot of meetings then you can really help then you can really cents as well yes really so yeah so you meet so that's key because it's one thing to talk about investment talk about strategy but it's another thing to hear about their hear about challenges and markets hear about challenges again a lot I know a lot of great investment guys that prefer to be behind their desk and I think if and that that's great there's there's a place for everyone but I think um speaking to clients and being able to communicate directly with them is really important really yeah and I think it it's a feed you know it feeds on itself if they see you of the appetite for it than you're brought yeah it's it goes both ways as well so and also you have to add value sorry to interrup you You' you've got real money managing experience you you ran your own firm right so your ability to connect and relate to these guys is probably heighten no it can be that helps and of course experience helps different ups and downs through your career understanding their businesses because I've analyzed their businesses maybe from a investment standpoint if it's a different types of Industries but it's also like listening like we were talking about earlier is really important because cios can come in with their pic book in their deck or investment counselor anyone but and you're on autopilot you have to read the audience yes that's the key so you know I was on a presentation recently where if if right away I'll see are people making eye content webinar is the worst because you don't have the body language you can't see as well you have to look at the screen to see are they engaged in not I try to remember doesn't always happen I I want questions interrupt me any time this is informal you know you you've got to be able to kind because some people are shy to ask other people need time and you could be in attention about an investment topic they have no interest in so because you're in charge of kind of uh talking communicating about our overall framework so that's key and that's something that's important at whether you're a CIO investment counselor relationship manager in any industry yeah so to me this is and it takes time to be able to get in that rhythm that you're not on autopilot and will you sit down uh routinely with the bankers and sit down and have a presentation like once a week how does that look like yeah so we we have like a Monday morning meeting where we we'll plan the week before like have a macro topic that links with what our product Solutions Specialists would also follow on so it's timely yeah it can make an impact so that's key because you want to read off one page you're like when I joined that was a key thing met takeaway I like I wanted to do that Senior Management supported that that we need to have one firm one view we need to have consistency of messaging and we need to be every week putting that out so we do that on a Monday uh coordinated with our specialist you know talking about webinars so my my wife's a professor n us and um I think on average during Co a third of the students have a black screen and I had one prospective client where they wanted to speak to me for the first time and they wanted to do a video call very specifically and they wouldn't turn on their screens I said well why are we doing a video call and I said are you at home in your boxer shorts I don't care turn it on they wouldn't turn on I said it's the end of the conversation what's the point of that so you can see me it's not an interrogation it's but it is fascinating because the whole landscape of what we do and how we do it has completely changed um how are you getting the message out to to the bankers and then to the clients because because now there's so many different mediums it's like what's the best there is no best what I I think it depends on the client uh so we have to be we're we're flexible on our so we have have of course we I publish we publish a monthly research document that goes to clients we we do podcasts we you know we do webinars we do also I would say we started a new thing called the CIO chat room where I it's not just about the CIO speaking the CIO my colleague you have to have a great team uh Grace she's also interviewed uh our product Solutions people uh to make it more interactive what are the challenges of the day and fixed income what about the whe AI gone up too much or whatever it is when are yields going to Peak so that's something we're doing so I think it's a kaleidoscope because social media messaging insta messaging we're bombarded with information key is can you get out your three key messages yeah that's the key that's the challenge it's not easy that's a Margaret Hatcher thing she always said if you have a presentation you got to have three takeaways right yeah yeah interesting so that's that's the takeaways but I think it's a multiple channel uh and of course you got to tailor to to what the some clients want to read something they don't want to hear listen to something other people want to listen to something and don't want to read something so that's why you have to have uh more more CH I'm curious about is do you have um younger to mid-level staff be on the investment product side or the banker side that' actually reach out to you and say hey press I'd love to get to know you because I'm guessing the answer is maybe no or less so and say you know can I take you out for a coffee or or lunch and because because I always think there's a rank and file system in a lot of banks and if I was an upand cominging bank and I saw you and I just thought hey I can learn from this gentleman let let me reach out to him but does it happen or not really it does happen but people some people are shy like I was shy my I I I might have been uh shy to reach out to someone who's uh in a company in a more senior role when I was their age so I can relate so I think that's where about the informal interaction if you're on the floor you're walking the floor you're talking to people you're asking how was how was how what do you think about the Euro football uh Championship score last time who do you think is going to win then who do I want or who do do I think um who do I think uh Spain France probably the favorites but England let's see if they can get an offense going uh I I think probably England has great talent but it just doesn't seem to be we still haven't you know figed out we put we always struggle to put it together right team but uh but France looks of course is a major power and Spanish Midfield looks good well well uh it's funny story I was in Vegas um and I I go there quite often for the big fights and uh I was there for my 40th which was Conor McGregor against Mayweather and I was going to put a bet bet on and um I bumped into someone and it was Vinnie Jones ohow and he dropped all all of his uh uh notes and stuff and and I didn't realize who it was until we stood up and I said finny that's he start he goes listen we've got to get the bets on and because he heard my English accent and he was such a nice guy so so so obliging and I and I was a bit worried he was going to try and grab me like he did Gaza back in the day I was yeah I don't know how does he look as intimidating him person you know what he's he well he's older now so he's I'm 5 six and a half he was a lot shorter than I thought okay um but he he's just a character and you could tell he's actually a very jovial nice guy and um the the crazy thing about Las Vegas is you can you will see many many people that are famous and there won't be too much of a reaction so talking of which so this the night I went to uh what before the fight I was on my own and I had uh booked a dinner at noou and the thing about how I always do it with the big fights is I will book the restaurant and the hotel as long as I can cancel without paying a fee typically before I'll get the tickets sometimes you can't get access to the tickets straight away um so I turn up and do you know the color commentator Jim Gray oh of course okay so let me unpack the story so earlier that day I had seen that Mike Tyson was doing a signing at Field Sports uh I think it's called fields and I went there and there was a massive queue of like 150 people and I went to the front you know what I'm like and I said is there any way you can get to the front and uh they said well if you spend more than $150 on any of these items this is the queue and they were like three people I said yeah please so I I got a pair of custom shorts Mike Tyson shorts and um so they don't let you take a picture of your cell phone they Ed their and they were changing the SD card so there's Mike and I and he was clearly on some uppers and downers and he's just he's got this Aura of a brooding cage tiger you know and it's Mike Tyson but he he's my favorite box of all time to watch you know so I said to him I said hey M how you doing and he was bored right cuz he's signing 100 and I said look do you know where I can get a decent cigar tonight and he turns to me and he says well I won't do an accent I won't I won't do the l i w do the LIF but he turns around and says well where you going I said well I'm in noou later and he said oh CES P just opposite noou there's a great Cigar Lounge and I might see you there later so so I anyway just it's a flipping comment so I got my my shorts went back I was really happy went turned up and um I'm in noou waiting and Jim Gray's there with his wife and we stood next to each other and I got up before I even saw him because there were only a couple of chairs there was a big queue even though we had booking and I said oh would you like to take my seat because his wife they were probably in their 60s and uh um so I started just talking to her just polite conversation turns around and her husband's Jim Gray and said Mr grma I'm a big fan how you doing and I said who do you think is going to win the fight and he said that's that's a stupid question so then he shows me his phone he says look I've just recorded this is going out midnight she said interview Conor McGregor and Mayweather earlier that day uh so anyway my table came up and got called up and they they didn't have anywhere to sit together so I said why don't you sit with me until I'm on my own and until your friends arrive so lo and behold they sat with me um and then they left to go and join I think I think it was the owner of the Dallas Cowboys I'm not a football fan so anyway left waved at them went for my cigar I'm in the Cigar Lounge Mike Tyson walks in looks at me does that and I I look like this and he comes up to me takes the cigar has a little puff and uh wow that's larger than life you can't imagine that well well actually sorry he said to me do you mind I said M I know we your mouth be and then he took it anyway went out as as he was going out Jim Gray was coming out they hugged each other right looked into the Cigar Lounge and both waved at me it was so surreal and a lot a lot of people don't know this so Jim Gray I think his first ever interview uh at 17 was with Muhammad Ali he was called in as a last minute replacement and he did uh Mike Tyson's first ever interview or one of his first ever interviews with caato and he did uh Muhammad Ali's last interview ever what a story yeah wow that's amazing I mean he people don't know that you're obviously you're boxing your boxer grow yeah yeah so so but the thing the thing about sports is if you're a sports fan or any any type of know art it could be music or acting if you get to watch the world's best practicians do what they do up live and and and if if you've actually tried to do that Sport and you realize just how brilliant they are so like I don't know if you saw a recent interview with Roger fedra uh where he he was he was uh given some sort of graduation PhD right some doctorate but he was saying and he's my favorite tennis player of all time is he said that it annoyed him when people said oh looks you make it look it's so easy and obviously but I you know he said actually that's the greatest compliment because he he worked his entire career to make it look effortless yeah he makes look after us you what are your what are your favorite sports then oh gosh uh watching or playing I think I'm I'm much better at watching than playing um no of course we talk about basketball of course I like that but I like you know Premier I like soccer football Ringo football who do you support oh Arsenal yeah me I me too I moved I moved to the UK uh just at the time when just before wenga yeah came on and then of course I love the style of play well the thing is it's also well for me it's where where you grew up right I mean in theory my team would have been watch if I was the UK would have been different if I depending on where I grew up yeah but it's it's funny but it's I don't follow it so much now cuz of the time difference true yeah I mean you you not watch so who are your top three favorite players of all time to watch not maybe the best but your favorite in football yeah to watch by the first one comes to mind is Burham okay because of the what a finisher yeah what a finisher and the style and the wayant ball is literally attached to his foot still remember the volley from the World Cup against Argentina so he to me was mesmerized to watch yeah and then of course if you're sticking with Arenal then tii yeah and then for Pure metal and and for strength Vieira yeah because he was to me the yeah he offensive midfielder oh yeah base and and in basketball Al of course you know number one that's MJ I'd say um after that it's a good one I see terms of what I've seen obvious see Kobe's up there yeah in terms of he's almost like MJ clone in some ways but in in a different way and I'd say it as Peak Tracy McGrady okay because he was kind of a 610 Kobe but he had injury issues all and then bring from Chicago Derek Rose okay okay well well I take a lot of aspiration and inspiration from um leaders on the football field right so Alex Ferguson I've read a couple of his books not that I'm a man you fan but man that that guy such an interesting background and a leader and uh he he actually ended up spending quite some time in Harvard after afterwards right real fascinating yes but when when you look at leaders that you've come across in business without mentioning names but what are some of the qualities that that you truly admire tough but fair I think when especially when you're earlier in your career you can get you can be somewhat off-putting can be disconcerting but you can be tough but if you're but you have to be fair yeah I think that mix gets the best out of people I think also when I think about really good ones it's about they if you're on a certain role in your career but you can see that person in a different part of the organization or different different role within the organization being able to put them in that slot rather than losing them I think is another one where I've seen can you get the most out of that human capital yeah it's just a human it's just a human capital business it's not always easy to to do that uh and I say the third thing I would say is when I think about how people make decision-making um that mentorship we talked about earlier like you said you know I think you need to be a player coach these days yeah like in my day you got you didn't get much feedback when I sto you know you didn't get as much when you started it was more and then it got it's gotten progressively better but I think that kind of feedback is important because without that people are looking for it it depends how you deliver it we all receive it uh every day every year uh and I think that's key because these days you won't people I think think the Young Generation now there's more Mobility they want to be challenged they have their own personal whether it's sustainability other things they're interested in how can they make their role meaningful maybe it was that that the bar is higher now don't you think the thing about you know we're going through these strange times but with feedback it's almost like I I feel know just look at the internet and comments on Instagram and what have you people are more comfortable saying negative things than positive things and and I find a lot of a lot of the senior people I work with have said I've got some negative feedback what you think the people that I coach and I said well you've got to listen to it but you can't please everyone and you can't be everything to everyone I think it's important to be authentic and and to lead from the front lead from behind and and and drive it like if you look at Alex Ferguson you know everyone respected him he was a fearsome leader um I he probably couldn't exist in in today's business world so easily in the corporate world anyway but I I I'm old school I love the old school way of thinking no I mean he did it his own way and I don't think anyone will have I mean what he did in the Prem how many titles he won but also it's the leadership like you said he's he said he went to Hala but he he's a case study on how to manage how to get the best out of people competitive fire Mercurial Mercurial he can lose his Tempo but then he he makes tough decisions he let players go yeah because they weren't they were great players but he didn't see them on the team yeah so that sends a very powerful message these days as know the players have so much more power different than them so to me uh those kind of skills he had were incredible because some of the best players were let were were moved out when he thought it wasn't better for the team will I place the guy uh in DPM equities a while ago and the overall head of the investment business the ultimate hiring manager Mass's soccer fan and a man united fan and he wasn't convinced and I said you know who Dennis Owen is don't you that's why said to him I said he's Dennis win and he said he he's Dennis wiwin I said he's Dennis wiwin so he said okay yeah and and and he's Dennis Owen he's like you know he's there consistently quietly gets his job done you know what I mean I actually thought so sometimes sporting analogy is kind of work in business as well but you bring up a really important Point like money management wealth any any kind of Walk of Life how The Quiet Ones yeah of more introvert I don't believe in extro and introvert we all have shades of it in different ways but how do you get the best out of the most quiet some of the best asset managers wealth advisor are quiet and it's the people that talk more perhaps get attention how do you get the best out of them and they actually play a very powerful WR outcomes reasoned outcomes that quietness like they say JK Rowling she she was introverted but she was on the trains thinking about Harry Potter think about the books and she didn't want even to ask for pen to to write it so she had think up in her head so that quiet reflection and creativity that comes from Solitude that's a big challenge yeah uh in in in every business uh and when I think about some of the people I work with some of them are very quiet yeah uh and they LED through their their times for silence their times for that pausing that has to be allowed it's got to be facilitated and I think it's a well you know this when you go through different periods of your career I think it's so important to take stop to be introspective um it's interesting the you know one of the things I I find is um you know a great definition of being an introvert is if you spend time with people even if you enjoy it it naturally depletes your batteries right V Visa an extrovert it's the opposite um what would you say you owe would you in the middle more introvert or extrovert I'm going to get I'm going to get some Flack in the side but no I think I definitely I'm more on more extrovert but from the middle side outward woods but I do which may not I do enjoy my downtime as well yeah cuz you have to have that downtime everybody has to have it yeah so I do enjoy the buzz of working with people being in team talking and go out see uh I like that but then you can but then when you go home you can yeah the weekends you need downtime you need time to recharge your battery so no one's always on I'm sure maybe some people are for me I can always be on like the weekends I also want to bring down the to spend time with the family do things you know you're not you're not as active from a compared to perhaps a work day but in a different way so you're exercising going out but I why I think that's so important to know if you if you as an individual struggle with that is you know as we get older and I see some very senior people like yourself your ability to your energy management right from you know so people say to me what's your diet coffee and I'll say coffee but but in real terms your diet is not just what you eat and drink right it's it's everything it's what you read you know how you sleep how you just how you adapt um but one thing being being a Salesman I I coach a lot of people on because I think sales is is perhaps the most difficult job in the world I believe we're all sales people in different ways uh but how do you understand that so a lot of introverts think they're at a disadvantage because they're an introvert and and I always feel in fact some of the very best sales people that I know are uncomfortable selling and and for me the sale is really only at the beginning and quite often at the end but then if you're factual you present sound solid information you're very transparent um and you address the problems first and and I think you know that's very powerful and especially in our business no no you're right I think this transparency and being frank um things happen things go wrong if you're the first call if you're a salesperson that's your your people are taught that but it's a cliche but it's so important you're the first call yeah and it's on your personal life as well everywhere if there's something you need to deal if you you you need to be proactive and transparent um that's to me key and that come people recognize that they see that because those aren't easy conversations um I think that's that's one of the key things I think it's a mix of skills you need it's you have to adapt to the situation read the you know we're talking about read the audience read the body language um and you also have to like you said you've got to play to your own strength some people are more in slightly more introverted some more extroverted but how do you bring that out if you're aware of it it's a self-awareness yeah like earlier in my career I may have had a question I was a burning to ask you but I'm not going to ask you because you're you know someone senior yeah I'd wait till the very end I'd be the last person to ask the question so you you also have to become self-aware okay I have that okay I have to if I have a question I want to ask it I got to ask earlier why wait um to a point so that self-awareness takes time well what I wanted to ask you is you know i' I've worked in all over the world like you have and uh but I was very young when I came to Singapore how did you find the Journey of being you know an American you know working in London which is a little bit more conservative and in Singapore which is even more so did you have to adapt and adjust you know even though you've worked in very International firms no no you're absolutely right because um like when you're dealing both you're working with your colleagues and you're working with clients um you can I can work with a very UK pension client yeah to then presenting to a in in London present to a a a lickstein based private bank with advisors all over to speaking to a US endowment or university all in a couple weeks so you have to flex now it helped to have worked in different places but over time that people recognize that some people want what they're comfortable with so it's the mix of Team you bring yeah so if you're bringing I would I would I would be you don't always go alone you go with a team yeah so that helps um and that's underrated I think when you bring in certain cases you need to address something straight on oneon-one other times you need to bring a team and there's also good com bad comp people that deliver tough messages and people that also give you the other side of it Shades of Gray business life is about Shades of Gray yeah that's really important so and I've been on both sides of that but I felt comfortable over time like you said you got to be authentic if you're authentic and transparent and you're Frank people respect that and I think that like I remember some meetings I remember uh where the high yield I when when I was an asset management our high yield uh portfolio manager was presenting and he got absolutely drilled he he couldn't go through his presentation he got a million questions so I knew on the Fly I can't go I'm not going through my International Equity presentation I got a first off address their question pivot and go I just benefit because he went first we were laughing later at the airport having a yeah he's like oh man that was like the you know because you don't know what the sometimes things k a Twist but I was able to watch that take that in rather than think about all I just got to got to go through my slides quick and go adjusted it and then mine went much smoother but because I could watch what happened and that's where reading the audience seeing the mood kind of go at what the key questions are early on in a conversation really important let me ask you this in terms of uh guiding people along their Journey that are either going for an appraisal or a promotion so that they're applying for one or they're hoping they'll be considered for one or if you're the manager appraising someone can you just share with me what you think's the best way to approach both of those yeah I mean I think there's first of all the individual because everyone likes to communicate in different ways so um through your career you people that come to you and give feed want feedback and come after other people who they're more going to rely on the feedback you give and I've been on both sides of that as well when I when because I get of course we all get feedback so that's the first thing is again building the relationship with that and knowing that and knowing the boundaries two is I think it's there's constructive there's feedback that's not constructive and there's feedback that's constructive yeah then there's and that's something where again the better managers I try to emulate it's never perfect I'm sure I can do better um and then third is what is their longer term what because like I have aspirations you have aspirations we so especially in younger people um they may not know but they may come into a role but then they're seeing other things how can I develop them how can I give them the responsibility that they deserve whether it's seeing clients whether it's presenting whether it's uh it could be anything it could be doing research it could be could be mentorship it could be anything so that part of it is the soft skill side and then reskilling like how I can't teach you this I'm not equipped well you should go meet that person you should do this training you should do a sustainability certificate you should whatever it is because there people interested in so many different things and finding their passion so like to me it's like what makes you tick what's your passion I love it that if I can figure that out um hopefully I can add some value as a manager and but a lot of times language at work right so do you have to would you have to engage HR have you suggested they go and do this um and let's just pretend they it may or may not be funded by the the organization right but I I I always find it interesting because I always suggest that people they invest in themselves even if it's not right and and how do you dovetail that into the rest of your career I'm amazed young people now they invest so much even more that I feel like they're doing CFA or they're doing a sustain on their own but that is I'm fortunate that you know BNP is very learning in development we have very strong culture of that so a lot of these things are are inour and and and the firm uh can has programs where you can actually do it uh but like we're scratching the service because there's a huge amount of Learning and Development online that we that you don't even know if you don't access so one of the things we're trying to do is improve the knowledge of what we have because half the time there's so much there that you can be used so much more of yeah and so it's a mixture of that but we're lucky that we're at a large firm that's that it we believes in Career Education or what's the word uh uh lifelong learning yeah so that is probably really strong where I am so that good news it's there but then how do you figure out how that maps to an individual person yeah that's also key in that well the thing is with you what's I I would imagine is Da is very daunting is you're looking at everything globally so where do you decide where to look and how to channel your energy that that in itself must be you know a bit of a headache yeah I mean it from an investment perspective the reason I like what I do in general whether it's if you're investing business in General and different rules is there's no single day the same day it's you know like you things can change completely unexpectedly whether it's ERM crisis internet bubble GFC whatever it is but lots of mini events along the way that makes it extremely still me because investment markets are a puzzle and you can if you're right 60 70% time you're the first quti yeah and you cannot be right 100% of the time so from day one you're humble and you're scarred you're humbled and you're scarred so that's the key but to answer your questions more precise L is because you're taking in so much information the key is 70 80% of information is not relevant or it doesn't change your view you have to look for the information that challenges your view and that makes you either gives you more conviction in your view and the firm's view that's what we do as a team when we debate ideas is you you check your ego at the door when you challenge a view you're challenging The View not the person do you do you get up in the morning like are you all opening the broad sheets just I'm just fascinated what is in the old days absolutely so of course um I guess it's a lost art reading newspapers but when I grew up I was on the tube I was on the subway flip you know I would be going like this around yeah and I missed the fact that even though you can take that information online now it's not arranged in the same way yeah so of course that that is that that's important um but information sources are more so back in the day of course you read the Ft W Wall Street Journal before you came in maybe you you read another newspaper early on and you're in early uh so I was used to coming in early and but you're also then you're reading more specific information company results other things macro information politics whatever it is now though you it's it's you're saturated yeah so the biggest part is the filter that's the thing right so to me it's that initial filter um is the key part of the day of what I ignore that's not relevant and what I have to do more work on or what we have to discuss as a global team because it may be something we need to CH challenge ourselves um so like you know like you could have you know like the you could have uh brexit or you can have any event that comes out of the blue how are you going to deal with it how are we going to think about the Pol how we think about economics how we think about trade about but it's frankly there was also a ton of noise and what I find is like you said the negative story gets 10 times the hits of a positive story so you have to start with the premise that cuz the more dramatic the headline the more clicks you get and the more money you know uh social media can make so and that's in our day that was the Nightly News the Nightly News was Grizzly most of it and then you got the weather and some sports but now that's social media because the more dramatic in every place in the world is is is is that you know is the thing so that's what you also have to tune out uh in terms of that but within that 10% that's relevant that's really valuable and then how do you feel pressure to um lean towards certain Trends and because for you you've got to remain as objective as possible and you have to you know filter out all that white noise around you I'd imagine that's not easy either yeah you can you're you you're massive or now I've been in it long enough where I I can filter a lot out okay then I'm much better than I could 20 years ago yeah because once you live through cycles and in all kinds of different investment events you know we can won't go through them all but then you know you a idea but history doesn't repeat it Rhymes yeah so like even the AI bubble now but I wouldn't call it a bubble is different than in 2000 because it's the big companies that are profitable doing share buyback and they had big earnings increases now we can argue what they're worth yeah but in 2000 it was small cap companies you haven't heard of and people looking at eyeball valuation so a lot of people in my generation that looked at AI may have said sold too early yeah we can argue now how much maybe it's overheated or not but the point is is you also have to know the limitations of what you've seen before because it doesn't exactly repeat but having the knowledge of seeing that helps you give you perspective on now on analyzing AI versus so there's important similarities but there's huge important difference so that's that Library it's kind of it builds up over time but at the same time if a newcomer could analyze this situation better if they don't have baggage yeah so you see that's why it's Shades of Gray fine balance right yeah Shades of Gray but I think as you get older you you acquire selective hearing skills which most wives have anyway right certainly mine has um now do you fall into this category you've heard the analogy that most Builders houses are the last to be F you know fixed and finished yeah talk about you you and your Investments how does that are you allowed to invest your own money you know is there conflict of interest how does that all work we're at at large Bank the rules are all the same you've got a hold for you know 30 days you're not allowed to trade you don't trade derivatives you don't uh short the market so it's really about long to mass allocation in all view it it really depends on your classification of what you're doing in The Firm yeah as to what you're doing but like when I managed money of course I had money in the fund I managed longterm that would just stayed there uh as well as a hedge fund manager that's what you would do um so and of course the money is now that you invest are really along those rules but long the time you're not you're not uh it's very different than maybe when you started and you have more freedom and I think it makes sense because you have to eat your cooking the same time you have to be really faithful to kind of the advice you're giving um so that's where it is but I would say it's it's not hugely it's pretty similar at most larger institutions it's fairly uh regimented in terms of that uh coment is no question that's not there right because we would never we would never be trading a security that we' be you know we wouldn't be where you could influence all those kind of things that you read about in the market we would never think about um you know having that conflict of interest you know what one thing that I think is missing for for teenagers becoming young adults is this whole journey of how to start the investment program and I I think that's something that uh I think is really interesting mean like yourself with with your kids you know have they shown any interest or if they haven't have you said hey look guys you need to start thinking about this early you do like my younger son who likes um video you know likes computer games kid so I said oh you should look at ROBLOX L and these help me pay for the subscription yeah yeah uh but uh so yeah um it depends on their Journey what was your take on Gamestop by the way as it was happening and unfolding oh incredible because uh do you know anyone CU I I have a friend that did very well on it and um and uh but you know when I see these things I I'm I'm looking think this is crazy no I mean it was like you couldn't have scripted it yeah because uh the moves in that and the extent of the move and it actually some large huge hedge funds who fundamentally had a view the year was worth less yeah went out of in effect went out of business yeah it you like I've seen Bubbles and then the risk in shorting because I've seen it is that you have unlimited down downside risk because when you own a security it can go down 100% when you're short of security can go up 500% that's the thing so that's and then it can go on longer than your liquidity now you learn those things but in the GameStop the combination of okay an investment you can call it bub or whatever Mania but the combin with people at home pandemic Robinhood there a trading you know active trading people trading options people are at home that combination is unique and you wouldn't have been able were you were you following it real time like were you looking at Reddit and stuff yourself or because there's so much what why I'm ask is there's so many things happening for and you're looking at everything I'm just curious like what Falls onto your radar and how yeah I mean we because we weren't invol of course we weren't involved in the situation per se directly but it had implications for what risk- taking for uh hedging for risk management but also Mania but at the same time you realized um from a you know I wasn't man I wasn't but if you if I was in the hedge fund industry that I would have been very wor of my shorts you know I wasn't I wasn't in I wasn't shorting stocks when the game stopped thing the biggest lesson is for the alternative industry is you better have convictions on your short it better not be a lazy short and if if it is you better replace it with an index short or a diversified short or you're going to be absolutely carried out because you may have a view of what the fundamental value you may have a catalyst for short to go down but if it's uh you can't stay in the position and the position goes that large you have to be you have to be a risk manager at that point putting my other hat on former hat on that's how I would have looked it's funny because I you know having lived in the US I always you know when you when I heard GameStop I just physically thought of the the stores that I had seen and um and it's it's like when you think back back to like Netflix now you think back to Blockbuster Video and you just think you know things have changed so quickly but when that was happening I just didn't understand why I mean fundamentally I was thinking this doesn't really make any sense no you're right in the Roaring Kitty Meme and you couldn't I mean these kind of things uh you didn't realize till that person could have that big of an influence in the market as well that that was not really something that you could have predicted and what about I mean maybe you can't say but like I feel that uh Alternatives is really one of the sexiest asset classes to look at and very interesting and I think it's increasingly becoming a hot area I know you've covered it for many many years how do you feel about that space no I think it's it's all about it's like a surgeon's knife it can be used very precisely it's very useful for fation if if it's used imprecisely you can cause damage it's like anything so but when we think about what you're accessing I mean if you think about broader alternative so private Equity it's IL liquid Equity yeah so you need a return premium but but the exciting part is if you're at a firm that selects the really you know managers that can add value the managers can add much more value than say a US Equity straight manager because your Alpha potential is much more and to the downside yeah so you get if you can marry it with you're getting private Equity exposure and you can good good selection because the fat taals in terms of your the amount of alpha you can add it's wonderful also it's it's exposure you can't build yourself um so you know they're buying you know some of these firms are buying midcap companies they're buying large you know other situations where they can add value in a way you can't as a passive investor in a publicly listed security yeah and then it's also it's a very broad space so there'll be times for secondaries when liquidity right now there's less realization privity so secondaries could be an opportunity um or it could be private credit which is a growing asset class secured lending not investment grade but more nagles is to high yield but it's it's you you're you know you're acting as a single lender or a group of lenders but that has an asset class where you're secured the default rates will see because it's a big much bigger asset class than 10 years ago there's a bit of a a lot of hype around it right now but at the same time as part of you got to think that as part of your broader income allocation longer term as an investor yeah but the key is a lot of people overrate and a lot of people understand if you if you need liquidity then of course um certain private altern Investments won't be appropriate but often people overrate the need for liquidity especially if they're high Ultra High um it's true longer term money actually you don't need it so you can earn that extra premium and that's something that's it's also psychological half of our business is dealing with psychology of investing yes the flip side is the alternativ industry is getting much more liquid because we have the liquid Alternatives uh but the key is do those Investments liquidity of those Investments match the actual investment because I've seen in the past where uh it's a it's a liquid alternative but then the underlying Investments aren't that liquid so then you have to do that education that in certain extremee environments it could be gated yeah so uh but the industry is evolving and the thing is alternativ is also now coming to the mass Market assuming you can do the education you've gone the regulation uh because of Technology yep uh because you can aggregate that's also you know how big you know how kind of blockchain you can use that same kind of concepts with you know you may not be able with the minimum institution investor 10 year PE now you can build it through smaller ticket size can do you know if BMP can uh private banking accounts can be funded through Bitcoin oh you no right now we're not yeah it's too early for for us and many members yeah it's just starting right yeah we're not um we're not definitely not doing that right now uh in terms of all in terms of the uh digital side yeah we'll see down the road well it's it's almost inevitable right it is interesting yeah I think about I mean we don't have a view on the asset class we don't cover it as a investment because I guess the hardest part right now is figuring out what it's worth you can do lots of work on it yeah and I think the key is from an ass allocation point of view when it's a diversifier it starts to become a bigger asset class um so right now you know again the performance of that asset class is correlated more with Nvidia or Tech yeah so when you have a point where volatility comes up and if it's a real digital gold and it gives you decorrelation benefit then it starts institutionalizing but it's you know this is outside looking in we don't recommend it but same time um it's something you have to watch and it's very interesting as a hobby to see what's happening it is I just want to wrap up asking you in terms of because I know you read um but what what kind of books are you reading at the moment I've read recently that you know they could be you know fiction or practical books I'm just curious that's a good good good question so I was looking back at books I read I'm rereading books I read that was very interested I'm going down that path as well with my old age the books so one of the books I like which may be applicable to the political environment right you know is like C around the world is like catch22 Joseph hel yeah Milo minder but I loved the characters so I read those when I was back in the University days so recently that catcher in the Ry yeah these kind of books more classic grew up but I've forgotten a lot of the key things but I remember some of the characters um and in terms of investment books I I reread like Market Wizards so these are great books where they interview worldclass investors Traders hedge fund commodity guys and it's the kernels you pick up in that um that you can then think about even now they're just as relevant they're written I guess there's intelligent investor and there's people like Buffet there you know intelligent investor was something written many decades ago but those kind of books I go back to more on the finance side but frankly there's a ton of interesting stuff on that you know that we read that are read our well outside uh Finance but I think things changed like now with my kids right in in uh High School um so on my daughter's table she had Inspector Calls and I said oh I acted in that way and she said yeah but I had because I I add in quite a few different things and you know I thought you know I I'll pick it up again and remember what it was all about you know it's and and it I saw that play in London yeah it's great fantastic you were I didn't realize you were no no not on not not in central London in in our College production oh okay okay um but actually I put I put uh my son into acting when when we moved back from the US um I think he was bullied a little bit and uh he's very shy we found out many years later that he's got ADHD and my wife and I always felt cuz she did some acting that it's it's a brilliant thing to bring children you know uh out in terms of their personality and um he made some great friends and interestingly so we put them into this him into this camp and the friends that he made there still his best friends now and most of them got into to School of the Arts off the back of that and it's really really interesting but one of one thing I feel that in the Singapore school system that makes me a little bit sad because obviously there's so much focus on Academia is that it's very difficult for children to explore and try many different things so for example musical instruments you you may everyone wants to play the guitar right or the drums but you know for me I wanted to be a saxophonist and I was told start with a clarinet I was really bad and then um but like like sports you know you know you you may start off playing football um but fall in love with something else and I and I feel it's a little bit restrictive here and I think so that's that's I'm just curious because when I speak to people that I admire I always try and find out like what have you read recently or what are the some of the top books so in on the investment side like uh uh I I recently read Ray Delio's principles again just just that that was a really interesting one but I have that book yeah any books that stand out to you so if I was a young portfolio manager or wanted to become a CIO what Cornerstone Books historically would you say these These are good ones I'm smiling because the one that was the most famous when I joined the industry was liar poker okay and just the way Michael Lewis writes it's you can just read it in a few it's just so easy you don't have to be in the banking business yeah and it tells a story but it gives you you almost feel like this is you're on the trading floor that's Solomon Brothers in this case and Mar weather and all those things going on so you get a real picture Vis rule right yeah yeah Vis rule I remember equities in which is a famous part of it but but I think Michael Lewis like and you think about what he's done he's he's written across different genres like everything from liars poker to internet to you know even now and even sports with the he also had a book on the on analytics and sports right because Ai and we think about Ai and Investments it's AI is being used in sports and how you look at Players how you renew their contracts 30-year-old player with this kind of what they'll project what that person's career is so I think those books are also interesting um and I really I really enjoy reading his books so those are books I also read and reread um I I would say the market wizard I know I'm going back to that and the new market wizard to me they're a Bible because you're reading from some of the greatest investors but in a very humble way again talk about their how they've lost money how theyve made money that's powerful because it's real it's real and it's it's really you have your seat at the table in a way you never could you're never going to maybe meet them yeah Stanley dren Miller and some of people you read about some of the greatest investors of all time what you know how you take a really large position on you man risk but then how you blow up and how you come back those books to me uh I I I I find very valuable from investing because they're why because they're Timeless because you can apply situations 20 30 50 years ago that are just as relevant now but it's a different situation yeah that that's the thing I mean I'm for me I'm very old school cuz I know there's so many different ways of learning and now everything's almost instant right um but I think there's something in getting one of the guys that works for me told me by definition he said look I'm cheap he's cheap when it comes to you know like he will always buy things on a tablet one you young Isaac but and um and I said look that's great and you can highlight it but there are one or two books I would love for you to open right notes not don't just highlight write specific things because also that process I always feel um you can read something today is as long as you can relate to it practice it use it three times tomorrow and almost become an expert in it so we have this little game in the office where we'll take any book out of the library flip it and say stop and try to um make that part that paragraph relevant to anything you know in in a conversation with anyone wow that's that's that okay that's interesting it's it's it's powerful because I think I think you know for me um being a being a head hunter being a career coach okay so let's just say if I'm doing a CIO search a CFO coo search you can speak to 10 people that have very similar jobs the reality is for example a COO in one organization may be very operational in another very commercial but the guy that's doing the very operational role may be very commercial but he's not getting a chance to demonstrate it so then you need to talk about other things to bring it out and then understand and through those other those other conversations be it travel food wine you get to know their carrots in their DNA like for example one of the things I know that I love about you is walk the floor engage people speak with people um and and and I think that comes from being able to link everything together do you know what I mean yeah I mean I think no you're right I think like what you said example the books in indry I've ever thought about it that way that's that's that's that you're right though because it's say interaction effect that's what you're looking for that's like you know we we which work from home is great because it gets you that Solitude and time to work but also that time in the office when you that in formal interaction that's how I learned yeah so it's that informal I learned uh where I can make mistakes where you can have casual conversations you can learn how things are quote really done or or or how they were done back in the day but it's that stories and you hear and do that that to me because it's people business like we said like all almost every business is a people business it's a cliche but it's it's it's it's down to that's what it is in the service industry 100% um so I agree I I'm sure all the colleagues like of me coming around chatting them but but but I think that that is something that it feeds on itself and again if I'm approachable uh then other people approach me flip side when I was when I was just starting in the industry who did I go to those people that are approachable yeah I felt more comfortable yeah so I feel like I you know it's it's natural if it's your personality so maybe that's my personality yeah um but at the same time um I'm cognizant that that needs to be there well you're give back as well by doing so right yeah and like I get something from that so I love being a mentor of managed analyst programs in the past just as a s is something just you're doing um as something it's just addition to your role um at you know BMP we have Bright Young analysts that come in and I'm energized because these people are I would never get in the analyst program now probably and B they have a new way of looking at something they ask a lot of questions they're very ambitious but of course they're very early in their career Journey but it's not just about people in those programs it's also the young people that are in your group so like what we're really trying to do is Foster more informal interaction mentoring whether it's lunches or after workor drink or whatever it is in in our investment Service uh where we can do that more and more because then it's easier to have Mobility it's easier to keep people longer in your firm and in your culture and BMP by the way really has that long-term view most people that work for example for the private bank have worked there for many many years and I I I love that look it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today is there anything you want to cover ask me or grill me on or maybe next time but I feel like I do owe you a few questions but uh no but I really enjoyed it I hope it was useful well I would love to no but it's been really kind of you to spend some time with me today appreciate it man thank you cheers thank you [Applause] [Music]

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