#36 with Christopher Kwong: Private Banker by Day, Mentalist by Night

Hey guys, today I sat down with Chris Kang, a very good friend of mine, a private banker in a top tier private bank here in Singapore, and we talk about his journey of going from being a magician to AML to becoming a private banker. It was a great chat. We unpacked our mutual love for MMA, comedy, and his entire journey. And what's really exciting is he does a magic trick live on the Quintessential Question podcast. I hope you enjoy the discussion as much as I did. Cheers, Chris. Good morning. Good morning, Paul. Very early on a Saturday morning. Thanks for having me. Well, listen, thanks for coming, man. How you doing? I'm doing great. Uh even better seeing you this morning. And yeah, I've not um woke up to do a podcast on a Saturday morning. Can't say that it's a regular thing for me. So, I'm excited to be here. Me, too. I'm I'm pumped for today. So, look, for those that may not know you, can you just give a little bit of a quick introduction as to who you are? All right. So, um my name is Chris. I used to be a professional mind readader and more recently for the past 10 years, I've been in the private bank and a private banker covering the Indonesia market in particular. And that's the long and short of it. Good man. Well, before we're gonna start in a moment with a magic tree. Yeah. Um, so I'm ready for this. So, what do you So, we'll we'll dive into the podcast after. I think this is the first time you're having a magic show on your podcast, right? 100%. Okay. So, Paul and you are Nisha. Nice to meet you. First time we have met, right? Yes. Okay. Interesting. Um, okay. We'll try something. Okay. So, I've not done magic in a while given my current day job, but uh we'll try something and I hope it translates over podcast as well. Okay. So, Paul, we'll start. Okay. Um I have three books over here. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, The Shining by Stephen King, and the last one, The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. Interestingly, these are three novels that are all film, and I've heard your previous podcast. You are quite a film buff and someone who's really into the arts, right? So, 100%. Hopefully these books kind of resonate. It's random three books off my own shelf. Yeah. And um what I need you to do is um I want you to pick one of these books. Okay. Whichever book we pick is the book that we will use. Okay. So nothing funny. I don't want you think I put Harry Potter on top because it's the most recent or u Stephen King in the middle because most people go for the middle or the VG code at the bottom because you know you think um I don't want you to go for that book. Make sure it's a free choice. change your mind a couple of times and when you're ready just reach across and pick up the book that you want. Remember the book that you want is the book that we will use. Okay. You're messing with me. I know you I can I can feel it. I have to go with Harry Potter. Harry Potter. Yes. Okay. Great. Uh before we begin, uh you know Harry Potter, just flip through the book. I want you to read a couple of pages. Make sure it is indeed Harry Potter. You know I'm dyslexic, right? But that's fine. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Harry had entered Mr. Olivander's brilliantly gilded shop. Yeah. With Harry. Great. Now, um Nisha, what I want you to do is to take the book from Paul and I want you to flip through the book and find piece of dialogue between two characters. So, you know the open and close and further and then pick a nice long word. Make it more than nine or 10 letters. Okay. Yeah. So, find a conversation between two characters. Raise the book up so I can't see it. Kind of takes away the challenge if I could see it. Any page you want. Pick a page first. and finding a piece of dialogue. She's taking this seriously, but I I know I'm a bit getting a bit worried. So, you found a piece of dialogue and if you pick pick a word out of in that conversation, nice long word. Don't pick me. Don't pick a name. Don't pick you. And don't make it nice and long. Yeah. Now, shut the book up. Okay. Paul, take this book. Flip to any page. I want you to pick a nice long word. Make it a nice n 10 letter word. And once you got it, just remember. Okay. Done. Yeah. I just put the put the side. Uh before I begin, I think uh Nisha, I just want you to hang on to this. I actually forgot to give that to you, but before we start, it's we'll give that there. So now it's interesting, right? Uh I could done a card trick, which but I thought would be boring. So, in essence, what I'm doing is a card trick, but with books. And instead of 52 cards, I'm using thousands and thousands of words here. And both of you guys are thinking of a word. It's quite interesting. It's a very, very strange situation that we're in. And um the only people in the entire world right now at 9:00 a.m. in the morning, you could two people in the whole world think you have two random words in Harry Bore. That's a very very very very strange situation. Yeah. Okay. So, I'll start with you Nisha. I want you to concentrate on this word that you're thinking in uh thinking from the book. Okay. Just imagine writing it out in your head. Before this is the first time we met, right? Yes. It's interesting. Are you a Gemini by any chance? Yes, I am. Okay. I just just came across. Wow. That's Wow. So, you're someone quite artistic, interesting here. Okay, just I'm getting a bit It's a bit hard to Yeah, but it's okay. Just concentrate on this word. Getting a bit hard to Okay, just just hold on to that. Paul, I want you to think of your word and with the first letter, I want you to think of an animal and just shout the animal out loud. Good now. Yeah. Rats. Rats. Okay. What is the number 13? Is that is that something? Why you thinking of 13? I'm not but no. Okay. But this is that's okay. It is significant for me. Significant. I don't know why that just came and we just met, right? Yeah. Okay. And I just concentrate on this word. What? Who's Hamdev? H. Wow. What's that? It's my surname. Okay. Just Okay. Just put that aside. Put that aside. Okay. Scary. Don't know why I'm not. Okay. Let's Sorry. I'm going to just jump around a bit. Paul, you just concentrating on that word. Yeah. So, you thought of uh rats, right? Yeah. Let me think of this computer. I want you to imagine this word right now. Okay. And um imagine it writing it out on a board. Okay. Okay. Um, instead of a white board, I want you to go back to primary school. Imagine you're at that chalkboard. So, okay. Write the first letter, second letter, third letter. Stop. I think I got the word. Handwriting is horrible but I think I got word and my spelling may be horrendous. Okay. For the first time, so you you are thinking of a word could be thousands of words. You picked one word. Yes. For the first time, could you name that word out? Recommendation. Recommendation. home as s. So that's kind of like it looks kind of like mind reading, right? It kind of is, but not really because there's no such thing as mind reading. But you're thinking of a word, right? It's funny um cuz you're a Gemini. You're someone who is really honest and kind of come across you're someone who really follows things. Does that make sense? And yeah, what? Just say the word that you're thinking of. Say it out loud. The word that I write. Yeah. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You're holding on to that envelope from before the Mhm. before the trip started. I want you to just open up that envelope. Suddenly there take it out. And I want you to just read everyone. Wow. And then Chris man did it again, bro. Did it again. Chris, man, that was amazing. Well, I was pretty nervous. I've not done magic in years now given my new day job for the last 10 years. But well, I I hope that we were able to capture it, right? Cuz I really hope so, too, cuz that's a one take. There's no more. Yeah, that was brilliant. So, look, let's roll back in time, okay? When we first met, okay, tell the audience how we first met. Meeting Paul was a, as I said off camera before we began, a very Paulesque story. Uh, so Paul and I actually were living in the same apartment condo complex and we were in the gym. didn't know who Paul was and I was actually on the treadmill and just running. And next to me pulled up this guy who is jacked and uh just started running on a treadmill and he was pouring sweat out obviously cuz Paul's like all muscles and I just looked across and he was watching MMA and I think it's not common in Singapore and not where we were living to see someone watching two men in underwear fighting in a cage and I just had I just walked over to Paul and asked, "Hey, are you an MMA fan?" And I think the rest is history, right? Man, it was crazy. And what what was weird was so what happened was you don't know this, we just moved back from the US, okay? And we had rented our house out and we needed to rent uh an apartment for 20 months, but no, no less, no, you know, no longer. And um I hadn't even So that that place was called Montima in Upper Books. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. We hadn't even physically seen it. I had run past it before our runs and I thought, you know, that was great. But what what's funny is it turns out that I was friends with your dad. Yeah. Yeah. We I don't we didn't know that for a couple of years maybe cuz it's just we never talked about work. We never talked about work. And I think when you put two pieces together, it kind of feels like it's meant to be Paul. It's meant to be here. It was It was classic. Now your dad said to me, you know, I remember him sending me stuff from Conor McGregor, you know, when I was going to New York to watch him. Exactly. And he always comes back. Paul is crazy. He flew all the way to New York to watch. And my dad, I mean, he's also a crazy MMA guy like uh and it's it started when we were kids. So my mom used to work in a Japanese advertising firm. Okay. So they went over for dinner and crazy Japanese boss started watching Pride FC. Wow. Yeah. So my dad was like, "What the hell? What is going on?" Yeah. And then so he gave us a VHS tape. So he's like, "I have to find out." We went to Far East Shopping Center. this it felt like we were if it was very gross at that time watching cage fighting. It was illegal, right? So we we we had we went to Far East had to go and dig out all these random VHS tape. So I I remember watching UFC 1, two, three when there were no rules. There was like the huge sumo guy and all that. So yeah, MMA I mean now when he looks at it, it's came a long way. Yeah. And no one would think that of your dad by the way, right? No one would probably no one even knows that unless they're very close to him. Exactly. Yeah. It's I think it's kind of I think for many years my mom would tell him please don't tell anyone you're in the cage right thing. Well and actually so so when you and I were happy to confirm the date that that day that we did it 5 minutes before after your dad had just messaged me and then I said your dad's invited me to a gala dinner. Are you going? And you said I don't even I have no idea what this is about. Yeah. But but that but that happens a lot. You I don't know if you've noticed it, but it happens a lot to me when the phone rings and it's someone that you were thinking about a few minutes ago. I think we're interconnected. We just don't you can't see it yet. You can see it though. I think uh of course I pretend to be able to read minds, but what I do is a lot of on that it's a bit of intuition, a bit of showmanship and a lot of lot of fraudulent trickery. Yeah. So that's how I do what I do. Yeah. So let's unpack your journey. Right. So growing up in Singapore, you know, how did magic find you? So I think uh a lot of my family will come up in this conversation. So my uncle was a pastor of a mega church and also a magician. So he did his first magic show when I was 13. That's your dad's brother? That's my dad's brother. And uh the show was in the indoor stadium in Singapore. So that's a huge show. 20,000 people. Um I was like magic is really cool. Uh picked it up and never dropped it. I guess it's a bit nerdy and uh yeah it's a hobby that has always been there for me. It was something that uh helped me a lot as a teenager and through my life because it's something that it's a very as I said just now fraudulent way of impressing people right um but and but over time I kind of evolved my view towards magic and kind of now try to give I'll make the person experience the magic and not so it's not so much about me and look at me I can do this so that is the magic journey something that I has always been with me as a hobby be and I went to uni, went to the army and of course after coming out of the army I told my parents I want to at least try it for 2 years whether I make it or not I'll just do it for two years did that I think uh I would had a pretty successful YouTube thing did a couple of soldout shows in the explanate and you actually came to one of the shows we did in a club called canvas back in 2015 or 20illant yeah and then um two years came to an end and Asian parents they said go and find a real job and I somehow ended up in a bank by way of LinkedIn. I literally Was that is that how it came about? Yes. So I think for a disclaimer I think maybe people ask my dad as you would know is someone who is very senior in this in the private banking world. Yeah. And literally his name is on the textbook that we have to study for the exams the CACS exams. Yeah. So I fought very hard to not be in banking. So actually I didn't never wanted to be a banker. Yeah. Yep. So I in the army I was in legal services. So I had legal services, I did university, I did uh psychology and sociology. Did you go to uni then the army or the other way around? I did uh the army and then uni. So I had not no skill set for the banking industry. Well, let's go back. I'm just curious cuz a lot of people that are watching this, they're either parents trying to guide their children like me or there are younger people that are thinking, you know, which way should I take my career? So, Army, when did you realize you wanted to go to Sydney? Uh, I always wanted to experience living overseas. So, I always knew I was going to try to with the blessing of my parents obviously pursue my university overseas. I would have thought knowing you that your heart yearned for America. I I know, but I didn't want to do the SATs. Yeah, I I would love to have moved to the US to do my my university, but I didn't want to do the SATs. And I think it's a bit closer to home easier. And then why did you choose that degree? Um, as you know, I was very into the mind readading, mentalism stuff. So, I was like, why don't I try and study a psychology degree to kind of build that whole character, you know, and add some legitimacy. But I didn't know that a psychology degree meant a degree in statistics and nothing to do with psychology or whatever pop psychology that we know of. But yeah, I managed to do that and got out university did pretty okay and then did the magic thing. Two years came to an end and there I was staring LinkedIn in the eye on my phone. I was like what do I do? So I was in legal services in army. I I dislocated my shoulder like after my basic Yeah, just from falling and and all that. So I had to serve in legal services. Um so that's all I had right all the experience. So I was scrolling through link LinkedIn and this was back in 2015 and that's when uh anti-moneyaundering was all the rage because of the whole 1MDB thing. Yeah. So I just applied and they were desperate for people. So they said, "Oh, you have kind of legal background. You speak well. You write well. Just come in as a contractor." Okay. So I went in to um the bank as a contractor um doing AML or AML. Yeah. So I was in AML and then uh remember at this point I was fighting hard ne I never ever wanted to be a banker and then and then one day I was covering this case for a banker. You know they kind of we have to pull up and do investigations if things are weird. So working a case with this banker and then the team leader at that time who covered this banker said hey you speak pretty well. You write pretty well. Do you want to try to become a banker? Uh, an assistant banker. They call it an ARM basically. So, I said, "Okay, let's just try that." I think I was getting it was getting it was getting a bit stiff. What was that person's job? Which which person? The person that suggested you move across the team leader for the team leader. Yeah. The team leader for that. I like that. So, you have to give it, you know, acknowledge that person. Yeah. Yeah. So, tried that. So I became an assistant for 5 years for this banker and then ended up becoming a junior banker and now they would say a full-fledged banker and I never ever wanted that. It's funny how life works out that way. It does. Yeah. And in hindsight actually that journey kind of worked because I mean as you know who my dad is I mean he's senior in private magnet. People will always think I is there it was by design contract way and and there really wasn't. I was literally a contract staff that had to get converted. And strangely, I am 36 years old this year and I've never resigned in my life. Yeah. So I Well, listen, you I think I think that is also something one inherits from their parents, you know, in terms of values, the way that you operate. Um, we were talking about this in the leadup to this, but I was saying, well, like this weekend, Nigel Ben and Chris Eubank sons are fighting. Yeah. And we talked about LeBron and his son on the same team. You got the chance to work with your dad. Tell us about that cuz that's got to that was got to be weird. It was very weird. My dad somehow after retiring joined my my bank at the time of uh as a vice chairman, you know, one of those more senior roles. So, still remember the day I pulled up to work. I was in the toilet that I go to every day to to pee, wash my hands. This is 10 years, right? I've been in the same place every year and then I don't know why my dad's in the office and me. I looked at him. He looked at me. I said, "What are you doing over here?" Yeah. So, we just laughed. But I think we're talking about this, but a memory that I have was bringing him to my client meetings because as a vice chairman for private banks, you bring them, you just want to show that, you know, you have good counsel, a good uh good leadership in the bank, right? So, I brought him along to meet some of my clients. Something that I never thought I could do because obviously we can't share our client information, but being the vice chairman, I was using him for exactly what his role was. Yeah. So seeing him with clients was something that during the client meeting I kind of stepped back and I was like wow this is quite special as a kid I always hear him I'm going to work I'm going to work but I've never seen him in action with clients and that ability to kind of hold his own in a conversation because in private banking you don't deal with high net worth these are ultra high net worth yeah clients right these are people who are bosses bosses and yeah and founders and all that worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Correct. Correct. So when I saw him in action being able to hold his own and knowing all of the people in their circle, I think it it really showed me the value of experience in this industry. Yeah. You know what's what's interesting is um I heard this once. Yeah. And I don't probably you don't have this relationship with your dad. I did with my dad. So, you know, quite often when we're younger, we idolize our dads. And um and then more often than not, we ended up demonizing them. Yeah. And then for me, I unfortunately kind of happened after my dad died, I humanized him. Yeah. Right. But I think, you know, being a father myself of a of a son, I realized that's so it's it's a it's a passing of the torch moment. It is. It is. And yeah, I mean that all that mystery of him saying, "I go to work." I finally saw that in action. And it's something that I think I will take with me forever. Yeah, it was uh and it was a very short period and uh something that I will not forget. Well, just just actually when I found out who who your dad was when when we were living at Monteo, it was after that cuz I never saw him there ever. And then after that cuz I then saw what Ky was driving, I would he would often come back very late at night. Yeah. Very late. Like 10 half 10 quite often. I'd see him coming back from work and I thought he's he's putting a a lot cuz he's always in the work early, you know that's but that's the nature of the business right actually strangely right he doesn't come back late from work he's a very balanced guy but he he after work he will after office hours he will hang out with my mom or they'll go out and do like they would they're very active in church okay so they'll do that kind of thing and that's something that my dad has always been uh very very strict about he's very strict about his office hours he doesn't work overtime but he he makes up for it late at night So, after covering, coming back from work, spending time with mom, doing whatever he wants to do, his hobbies and uh church stuff, he works till like 3:00 a.m. 4:00 a.m. in the morning. Wow. Yeah. Just doing emails cuz he said that's the only time that no one bothers you. Yeah. Yeah. So, talk to us a little bit about how you've incorporated magic into your job because you're using this a little bit now to coach some of the bank cuz I'm fascinated about that. You're coaching the bankers, right? Uh I am starting a a communications uh company with a friend where basically we just want to teach people how to to talk in conversations and also present on stage. I think having come from a showbiz background and looking at it in the corporate world it's quite interesting that even at the highest levels they struggle at public speaking. But I I mean I don't blame them because these are that's not that's not what they they studied for or trained for, right? they are just really good at a job. They become management and then suddenly they're tossed on stage and they have to present uh huge conventions and client events. So yeah, I that's where I started. I mean that's how I decided to start that with a friend. What does what does your friend do? So uh he works in a fitness app and he has to do a lot of uh selling right to to all these various gyms in in Singapore. So he's someone who's and he he's a great surfer, snowboarder. So he has had that you know that yolo lifestyle right and that that ease of communication is incredible for me like I have seen him he can talk to anyone from people who would be like my clients to the men on the street and I saw that that range right from him so which is unusual it is it is and uh that's something that is actually very important for private banking so I thought that's something we can incorporate and from my end having done a lot of stage shows I mean you have seen it yourself something that I think I can kind of bring to the table. Well, I one of the things I wanted to touch upon cuz one of the key reasons why I set up the podcast there, there are many, but was I mean so many amazing people through work. Yeah. But no one knows their backstory. So, if someone met you as a private banker and they didn't know your backstory, you you'd be missing a massive part of your DNA and who you are. Correct. Right. And and uh look, the reality is banking and finance to a large extent can be quite boring. Right. and and what makes people different is is their interest in their hobbies. And and actually one of the other reasons talking about kids was I wanted my kids to see um that anything is possible. You know, when I set this up, you know, I I don't really ask people their opinion because if you ask 10 people, you're going to have 10 different ideas and half the time people wouldn't say no. So probably I'm curious when you were going into magic, there would have been a lot of naysayers. Yep. I mean, it's in Singapore, it's a strange thing to get into, right? But I think the magic thing is still with me. It's a great hobby that I have and it's actually more fun as a hobby than a job because I don't have to sell out, right? Yeah, but I've seen it kind of incorporate into my daily life by way of having that confidence to be able to speak to anyone cuz magic was something that kind of showed me that we are all humans. Breaks barriers, right? Exactly. Breaks barriers. But you realize that no matter how famous or smart a person is, they still can be fooled with a magic trick. And that kind of humanized, as you said, people. And I bring that into my private banking career because I'm able to I don't have a fear speaking to anyone. You could put me in front of a CEO. I know we're just two human beings communicating, right? And sometimes people can't see past that facade. And I think magic has given me the ability to see past it. Obviously, I don't break break out a trick anymore, but it's was almost like a crutch, which, you know, to learn how to walk and eventually I can throw away that crutch and and now I can run. But it's in your tool bag, right? Yeah. It's always in my tow bag if people want to see something. I I actually don't ever do magic when people ask me to do it and anymore. Um I mean I still once in a while if I want to do it I'll pull it out but yeah it's nice to have that in in a tool box. So you know you're saying like it's back then it would have been a nerdy thing but what I've noticed is if you if this is a good a good point for most people to realize if you do something for a long time and you outlast everyone Yeah. it goes from you go from being a nerd to a Yes. If you look at David Blaine, right, he was definitely nerdy. I think you look at him now, people just love him. Yeah. I mean, right. He's captivating. Exactly. He's the reason why a lot of us were into magic a long time, you know. I mean, I I saw some of his stuff. I couldn't even watch it when he was on Joe Rogan and what he was doing on sticking a needle through his arm and all that. Yeah. And all that craziness. But, um, but it's the same when I did acting. I set up the drama club in high school um as as a way to meet girls. Yeah. and I had injured my knee and I just thought, you know what, I like this. Let me do this. But if you think about it, if if you go on and you end up being an actor and you're, you know, on the big screen, you're not nerdy anymore. You know what I mean? Cuz when people say thespian, they think, "Oh, I mean something different." Um, and then talk to me about your journey cuz one of the things I'm really curious about, um, as a salesman, I've been in sales for 30 years. Yeah. I find most people in business development sales, they almost can't acknowledge sales as a word. It's it's a dirty word because of the connotations. How's your journey to become a salesman and a business developer? You're not just an adviser because the reality is you're paid for advising the clients. Correct. But without the clients, without getting the clients, you don't have a portfolio. Exactly. So, okay, this will be I don't know if I always like I mean if people ask me how do you get into private banking? How I mean this is obviously I'm not a senior private banker but this is my own view. I think the first thing is I would say you don't have to study finance. You need to know finance obviously, but that's not everything. You need to be a student of the world. You need to be able to have 30 minutes of material on anything. Like one moment I'm talking about lithium batteries and uh to a Chinese businessman, the next moment I'm talking about the food agree business in Indonesia. Next moment I'm talking about MMA, you know, some or whatever pedal. You know, you need to be able to have 30 minutes of material on anything and that is the most important thing for a private banker because you can bring in and obviously you need to know have your financial knowhow but where you are is you're like almost like a football manager or or conductor of an orchestra. You bring in the right people. So you need to have that good framework of people around you and with the clients you need to build that trust, right? That's something that money cannot buy and that's what you're providing as a relationship manager or private banker. Yeah. And in terms of sales and finding clients, when I started off, I was like, damn, how am I going to find like ultra high net worth people? This is crazy. Like, what do I just walk around or what do I do? And then everyone is saying, oh, do I pick up golf? Do I pick? So, I was like, no, it's too obvious. What is something that people won't think about? So, what I did was I actually call all my current clients PAS. I say, "Hey, you're you're a personal assistant. Do you have other friends that work as a personal assistant?" They say, "Yeah, I do." And a personal assistant will usually work for someone who runs something, right? And I started talking to them or I'll be walking downstairs my office. I'll see a driver for a client. I'll just start talking to the driver. Hey, who else uh who else do you work for? And all that. And that's how I started to grow my client base. And obviously the ones that the one that uh is the biggest source of clients is your current clients. I think a lot of forget that. Yeah. And no client is small, no client is big, someone always knows someone. So I always believe in just doing your best for every client. It doesn't matter if they're your biggest client or your smallest client because that could be a referral to something else. You know, I want to touch upon that because one of the things when you know so at the moment when part of my career coaching is to help a lot of people further their careers and um let's just say you're a lawyer. Yeah. in practice and you become a partner, you're now responsible for generating revenue. Yeah. So most people think about networking and going to an event and whilst that's all good, I don't think that's so in my mind there there are two ways. So 46% of our deals every year come from referrals. Exactly. So, so I I always tell my guys and the people that I coach, I always say, "Look, if you sat down for the next three months, have a half an hour thought every day how to perfect getting referrals, asking when how to ask." Um, but also referrals largely comes from your credibility. So, if you're doing a great job, but it's it eliminates a lot of risk. So, if you introduce me to someone and I trust you and you vouch for them, by definition, this person is already much further up the list. Exactly. You know. Yeah. Yeah. So I I always have this actually this leads back to magic when we come up with methods for a trick, right? Yeah. So methods for sales or finding clients in particular now that we're talking if you can think if it's the first thing that pops into your head, it's the first thing that pops into everyone's head. Yes. Right. So that is definitely not the answer. But it doesn't mean that you need to you need the the method needs to be complex. In fact, the most beautiful methods and the most crazy magic tricks have the simplest methods. Yeah. And that's the same thing with finding clients. So for me it was using the current client pool or going to all these PAs. People won't always ignore the service stuff and all that. And for me that was where I realized I think that's where I go because a lot of people in finance will see how they dress, how I never ever judge a book by its cover. Yeah. I will cuz you really never know and that's something that I I love it. There's a great lesson to be learned there. talk to us about so when you set up your YouTube channel back in the day and it was very successful. It was pretty good. It was really good. So my favorite episode is is the one in the car. Yeah. So talk us a little bit through that cuz that was I watched it again recently two days ago and I just thought that still holds up today. Yeah. You know. Um okay. So cuz I said I wanted to be a professional magician, right? So I had to think what is the fastest way to make an impact, right? So firstly it had to be online right before you get I love magic is a in it's a real world art it's I don't like it over on screen actually but I I had to go on screen just for the reach right on YouTube and it had to be over the top. So if you think about it, what I did, I just basically for people who don't didn't watch it, I blindfolded myself uh got a local YouTube uh local star celebrities in Singapore. Uh we put Did you know them or did you uh I knew them from uh from church as a kid and u asked them if they would join me and they were very kind enough to help me out. So you use their clout and then uh if you think about the trick basically I drove a car blindfolded and behind one of the cars was uh one of the a girl who was uh uh uh the band mate of the guy in the car with me. Yeah. And um if you think about it, the trick is basically the spike under the cup. Yeah. But I just blew it up into an Aston Martin with huge metal blindfolds and speeding down the road. And you would you by the way if that was my Aston Martin I would have let you through that cuz you were actually you were putting your foot down. I was putting my foot down even if you even if you didn't weren't blindfolded you were putting your foot down. Exactly. I I was putting it I was gunning it and uh I have very very good friends who trust my abilities. Yeah. And not just magic but apparently driving abilities. Yes. That was very kind. It was a friend's car and uh yeah it actually really helped because it kind of added a shine to the Oh man. I mean that's that was part of the magnetism of it. Correct. Correct. Cuz it had to have that element of danger. Yeah. But obviously the there is no real danger there. It's all showmanship, but it's just to create that drama on screen. And then how did you feel? Because one of the things that I I've been trying to encourage my kids is to step into the light. So like, you know, up until we set up this podcast, I was hidden on LinkedIn. Yeah. And um for a lot of people, they get nervous about doing that, building their own visibility in their career. But how did you find that? very natural or um it was pretty natural for me but I'm not a public person especially on social media. I'm actually quite horrendous at uh social media so maybe that's why uh could have been bigger but uh I'm quite bad at that but when it comes to sitting down and talking and performing I've never shied away. In fact I sometimes I have to get myself nervous just to be able to perform because I'm too comfortable. I don't know why I'm very okay just sitting there and just talking. Yeah, but surely like when you had that that event that I went to, right, that was that was a big event. When I went in there, I thought, "Wow." And it had that kind of black tie feeling. There was a bit of mystique to it. It was in a club, but surely just even selling out and doing the performance and it going, "Well, that must have been nerve-wracking." Um, the only thing I get nervous is if the tickets sell cuz everything that's not in my control is something that I'll probably get nervous. But when it comes to performance and speaking, I think when you I have it under control and that's why it doesn't give me the anxiety. Well, again, give an overview of that because when you did that, it's it's the whole audience. Yeah. It's not just one or two people. You got everyone there, you know, on baited breath. Yeah. Walk us through that cuz that's that's that was amazing. So that show you watched uh the dirty room project uh was actually quite interesting. uh my partner at that time uh Jean Kristoff was a great mentalism mentalist from your business partner. Yes. At that point of time uh we decided to write a show from back to front. So that was how we we we had no methods to the show but we we wanted a certain ending and we wrote it from back to front because if you remember the the show title was an anagram for uh for a prediction in the show. Yeah. and we had all these like leadups to that huge conclusion. So that was how we actually structured the show. It was very very it was something very new to me and we had great consultants who are great magicians who are based in Singapore. They helped us a lot and it's amazing. So I want to walk through the journey of your parents right cuz I'm I'm thinking about my kids and what they're going to do and like for example my son wants to become a movie director. So it's not it's unconventional. So they so they just said look do whatever you want but you've got 2 years but what what happened your goal was well I want to make it successful enough that it doesn't it's not 2 years it's 20 years is that what your thought process was no it wasn't at all it's strange I I knew it was going to be 2 years good or bad I just wanted to to do it I also understand the realities of living in Singapore that's the thing yeah it's not not easy and yeah maybe I didn't dream big enough but I feel I feel like I have satiated that uh that need to kind of chase my dreams, but at the same time, I want to be practical. I think that's the Asianness in in in me and in Singapore. Yeah. And for me, I think transitioning into showbiz actually helped me transition into uh my work quite easy. And as I said just now, I've never resigned. And the reason is because I never believe you should enjoy your work, which it's something that people will people won't get it. Like that's why I don't understand when people said that you should enjoy your work, you're getting paid to do something, right? Talk to me about that mind frame. I'm curious. So in show business, if you meet my fee, yeah, I will perform. If you pay if you're in the if you're in Brunai and you pay 250,000 to Beyonce to sing three songs, she will show up in Brunai. And that is the showbiz mentality that I brought into private banking because I realized firstly I I understand earning your stripes in in creative endeavors. You don't there's no right given. You have to kind of work your way up. So I never rushed it and at the same time I never ever had that notion or I I never ever believe I should enjoy my work. It's a bonus if I do. There's only a few uh a few handfuls of people in the world that actually enjoy their job and that's a privilege. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my mentality. And even if you do, the reality is even if you're Tom Cruz, you're having to get up at 4:00 a.m. in the morning and do a shoot in the cold or you're away from your family for 6 months. Nothing is always perfect. Nothing is perfect. And in fact, as I said just now, when magic became an occupation, it kind of took away that that's that's an important thing to touch on. It kind of took away that fun and creativity cuz you are trying to earn money to put food on your own table, right? Yeah. So, um that is something that I think a lot of creatives also forget that one of the biggest things to stay creative is to be financially independent. It gives you the ability to take risks and do things that you want. Yes. And ultimately that authenticity will actually make your art good. But some people say it feels it feels like selling out. But I am a very firm believer in being financially stable and everything else, your hobbies, your whatever you you want to pursue, it will kind of flourish to the best of your abilities. Yeah. It may not be the best, but it may it will be the best of your abilities. I love that. I'm curious. So, when you went from being an assistant to a banker, did someone tap you on the shoulder or did you ask for that promotion and that step up? Um, after I mean I was a banker for an assistant banker for 5 years, right? And actually that was a very very good training ground. I think the best training ground to being a private banker because what that did for me is it was it exposed me to many different I was supporting many bankers and it exposed me to different um different ways of running your business as a private banker. There are bankers who are very trade oriented. They're always trading. They are deal oriented bankers who are they're always chasing that one bank collaboration with the investment bank. Then there are those bankers who are just really good with hunting clients. They're socializ. So I was exposed to all these characters and pantheon of like different bankers and and I was and the bank I was at I was lucky enough to work with the who's who some elite some elite guys corang girls and that kind of elevates your standard and I just took from that what I think I could do the best and kind of I said maybe let me give it a shot and my boss at that point of time said actually we'll support you and they put me into this junior banking junior banker uh it's a 2-year course and then after that it's a formalized program, is it? It's a formalized program. That's that I think so important. Yeah. Cuz otherwise it's like if you look at, you know, do you remember Alex Ferguson? Yeah. Why his team was all homegrown? Because you you brought your players up. Exactly. And and I think that's become it's missing now most companies, most it is. And yeah, I think and that's why I've never resigned. As I said, the bank I was at is um a bank that actually grew a lot of homegrown talent and they they invested in that and I enjoyed the culture. The bank is a it was a bank that you know it it's known for it entrepreneurship. Yeah. It's a very entrepreneurial bank and I I took to that and wish Yeah. And I just just took and ran ran with that. And did the bank have any formalized programs on training and business development and working with clients? Yes. So it's a full they call it a JRM junior banking program. Uh you go through it's a year course of there's a lot of lessons and it it ends with a role playinging session where they actually bring in actors who play the role of clients and uh are they actually actors? They're actually actors and they're trained financially also. So you're in that room uh coming up with a client and other senior bankers are in another room watching you and they'll grade you. And funnily that uh that uh that role play I had my my my role play was so good they used that to teach the other co this is how you should do really. Yeah. Yeah. So that was amazing. So that was uh that was Did you watch it back? I didn't watch it back. Yeah. They didn't give us the thing but they told me that I did really well and they're actually using that to kind of bring So if you were if if you end up managing a team of bankers Yeah. hopefully you can then infuse that. Yeah. I think banking is very interesting. I think it's to me like it's not a private banking especially is one of the few jobs where if you are ever a team leader or manager I'm not that obviously I'm a banker but it's one of the few jobs where the people you manage are earning more money than you. It's a bit like football managers. Exactly. Cuz these are the stars right. So it's managing private bankers is a very complex thing because you have your Cristiano Ronaldos, your messes and then you have your journeyman, you have your all rolled up into one and throw in egos and lots of money, right? So it really is like a bit like football managing. I think it's I remember folks always saying, "Listen, you're I'm managing a bunch of teenage multi-millionaires, you know, and that's why he ruled with an iron fist, you know, and it's um it's so but it fascinates me." And so I I was talking to um one of my best friends and he he was from the world of recruitment. He said, "Look, you know, you can't teach your guys the Paul Quinn way and and uh and I don't I tried to teach them the fundamentals, but I'll use private banking as an example. You can deal with clients from any walk of life, a rubber plantation owner, a hedge fund manager, whatever it is. Um, but so you need to have the fundamentals. You need Okay, let's just say the fundamentals that one you need to have and you need to be really good at it. Absolutely. That that is out of the way. That is not a question, right? You need to know your stuff. You need to be hardworking. That is the baseline. But after that, you see, after that, that is the essence of how you like how I would communicate with a client base versus you. There'll be a lot of similarities. But the reality is is, you know, you're going to have your passions. I'm going to have mine and you find a way to connect those. Correct. Correct. But one of the key things I've realized in working with very senior people at a young age, I think when I first met your dad, I was probably 27, 28. Yeah. And you know, how do you get into the room with a CEO, right? And uh first I never really thought of it like that. And um and I find it's quite powerful just to invite someone for a coffee, for a drink. Yeah. How do you deal with difficult people especially when you were younger as you're coming up? Because my guys, the guys that work in my research team, they sometimes struggle with that. Okay, let me tell you a story. Okay, this is a um the first So the the day you graduate is okay, now you're a banker. Okay, so obviously you don't have clients. They may have some clients where you can inherit and some clients who are they call it orphan may maybe the banker resigned and they they are currently without a banker. So they'll put you up in a lineup to go and speak to their clients. So literally they call it a beauty pageant. Beauty parade, right? Beauty parade. So you walk in, you walk in, you walk in, first banker in, comes out, second bank. So this was my first time. I was like, what do I do? Right? Oh my goodness. And the ones before me are MDs. So I let me tell you what I did. I went in and they said, "Okay, so what's your name? I'm Chris. Uh why should you be my banker?" I said, "I shouldn't be a banker. I am not experienced. I am not better than the the previous bankers that just walked in." Then the client looked at me. He's like, "Do you know you're trying to be my I say, yeah, I shouldn't be I really shouldn't be a banker. I'm I'm definitely not better than anyone of them." Then like, "Okay, then why are you here?" I say, "But I can guarantee you one thing. you will be my biggest client and I know I'll work hard and I'll work 100% 110% for you. That's the only thing I can tell you because I can't tell you I'm better than the other bankers. Yeah. I shut the door. Next thing I know, 2 hours later the client say, "Okay, I'll go with Chris." Love it. Yeah. So, so I feel like being authentic and never I could go I think the natural uh thing to have have done at that point of time for many junior bankers who have been you go in and I'm good because I went to this school I'm good because I I I sat there I really sat there I still remember I sat there and I was like what do I do? So I said I have to come off on the offbeat. Yeah. I I I always feel like doing like starting off with a magic trick almost like you start off on the offbeat. You throw the person Yeah. off and so they're not there. They they can't get you already. You know what I mean? They can't get you already. They can't get you already. They totally like what? What do you mean? You shouldn't be. You're not good at your Yeah. So immediately get them in this weird state. It's almost like hypnosis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so it's so interesting because um so one of the things that I try and share with people is typically in in sales or you could be asking a woman out for dinner, you face an objection. Yeah. And most people have worked on the rebuttal. But at that point, the person's already said no. Yeah. And you're having to try to turn them around. So if you anticipate what those objections are, so you know, potentially they're going to say, you know, this guy's an MD. How you better than him? And so you've you've taken that away from them. Correct. I object myself first. Yeah. So, but the thing is it's steeped in real honesty. So that's something that you kind of need to ask yourself like you need to be comfortable in saying that you're not good enough and I don't know. These are two things that I live by. I'm not good enough and I don't know. It's very very counterintuitive because people like you need to believe in yourself. Uh you need to you need but these are two things that I start with. Then it comes from a place of authenticity and then you kind of build into it. I I was asked by the head of HR to meet a bank some years ago and I and I said look we're at full capacity. you know, I don't think we should take on any more work. And you know, ironically, when you say that, they want to work with you more. And he insisted and I said, "Okay, I I'll come and meet you." And um there were eight people there, like a who's who of the bank, right? CEO down and they had left out, I think, seven or eight name cards of the previous search firms, okay, that they had met with. So I I said, "Excuse me, who's done this?" Yeah. And they're like, and I just said, "It's it's quite disrespectful to me and all of those people." Yeah. Um, you know, how would you feel about it? But they they did it on purpose and so so it annoyed me cuz I just thought that there's a and I said, "Look, you you know, if you invited a woman over for dinner tonight, Yeah. you wouldn't leave." Yeah. Right. So So whoever it was, it was very obvious who it was and that person was embarrassed. Then the other interesting thing was I noticed none of them had name cards, sorry, notepads. Yeah. I said, "Look, do me a favor. If if you think I'm going to add value, you need a notepad. You need to take down notes." Yeah. And um one of the I call it yes platform because when you get someone on the same path then they're agreeing with you. They're doing what you're doing. They're nodding and it makes the flow of conversation a lot better. But what I realized was with those guys they had out they they had a very negative impression of head hunters and I'm sure you get that with private bankers you know the perception or of lawyers and you've got you've got to get past that that initial inertia. Yep. You do. I mean as you said as a private banker you walk into a room you sit down there clients or prospects meaning what do you want to sell what do you want to the guard is immediately up right so I never ever meet prospects in formal work where these are things that I I just want to be a friend first yeah which is which is very different from again from what people would think private banking is right but just go in and build a connection and I never go in with any intentions I just go and have a chat like what we're doing right now, just having a conversation. If it leads to something, it it then great. If it doesn't, it's fine because they will just know you, you know, and maybe down the road, you never know, 10 years later, something will happen. But never go in with any intentions because it removes it. I think we keep going back to this word authenticity. Yeah. And once that is gone, right, it's hard to to to gain it again. So, I always start with that and take it from there. It works for you. and it kind of works for me but obviously there's a lot but a lot of people think you're w you are wasting a lot of time but it's just the long game. So I'll tell you a funny story you you will appreciate this. So I had a bet with uh two of my guys the research team about amount of activity we could do that day and if if I lost uh I'd have to buy them lunch or the other way around. Okay. And uh anyway so so we went to Nou. took them to Nou and I said look what I had so many things that I wanted to achieve during that lunch that they had no idea on. So firstly there were two if not three tables of private bankers trying to develop relationships with clients just around. Yeah. And I said look you're used to private bankers bullying you being rude to you but now what you'll see is they're playing lip service to the client. Right. So there's an 80-year-old man. He's probably worth a couple hundred mil. Right. And it it's it changes everything. And then I said, "This guy served us." Yeah. And I said, "Let's find out his name." And I and I said to him, "You smoke, don't you?" And he's a bit embarrassed. And um and I said, "That's okay. I'm an ex-smoker, so T want to know one." But I said to my guys, "Does this this guy smoke?" They couldn't tell. One person said yes, but for no reason, just a guess. The other person said no. He's a smoker, so he couldn't smell it, and I could see it on his fingers. Then there was another waitress. this will crack you up. So I said, I'm going to ask that girl for uh some redoxin or some vitamin C and she's going to bring it to me. And they were saying, well, how do you like, you know, how do you know if she has even got it? Yeah. And I said, I assure you, she's going to have it and she's going to bring it to me. Sure enough, she did. Okay. Right. And you know, and I and so this whole lunch, I'm hoping they got some takeaways from it. But it's just one's ability to read small things, see things, observe things. That's a lot. Actually, you you said that's how a lot of mind readading is done. I think people always miss out the small details like the hand you wear your watch on, the way you put on your belt gives me whether you're left or right-handed. I mean, or at least puts me in the right right percentage when I'm betting if he's a right or left-handed. There are a lot of things that are there, but it's very obvious. You must see things though, like know when you're like in the matrix, you're seeing everything in slow motion, right? Um, yes and no. I kind of like to cuz I also love poker. So these are almost like tells right so you do tells are not 100% sure bet but it's interesting and I don't have any science to back it up but there are certain things or certain remarks that someone would say that I see that in my my alarm bells are ringing immediately or if certain ways they dress I know what they're into. It's just I mean you call it intuition or whatever but that is the home Sherlock Holmes of uh All right. So listen, we've not planned for this but if you could play poker with any few players two magicians, one poker player, one MMA fighter. Okay, who you going to go with? We'll start with the MMA fighter. I'll definitely play with my favorite fighter of all time just to sit there and that would be George Sier. Oh man, the best GSP. uh when it come and what do you say two magicians? Yeah. Uh Pen and Teller. Okay. Both of them. My favorite magicians. Really? Yeah. Of all time. And their whole act and uh their setup apart from the magi the magic. They just characters. Exactly. And I love how they don't take magic seriously. They love the art, but they don't take it seriously. They can laugh at themselves and their magic is Have you ever met them? Yes, I have. And actually um the one of the consultant Johnny Thompson was a very was a mentor of my informatic. Yeah. He actually was the consultant for my uncle's magic show and that's how I got to know him. Wow. Yeah. So Johnny Thompson he's passed away a couple of years ago but Okay. One of the best ever. Okay. Yeah. And then so that'll be Pen and Teller filling up those two seats. Uh poker player it would be Daniel Negranu. Okay. One of my favorite cuz he just yaps and yaps and I'm always there for fun. So Daniel Negranu the poker. I love it, mate. Well, talk talk to us a little bit about So, when you go and set up this new business, you know, what what have you got in mind for it? Who you going to be coaching and working with? So, the business is going to be called Speak Easy. Okay. Great. I like that. See, because we want people to speak easy and uh we'll cover two fronts. It will be conversations and public speaking. So, that's pretty much it. And we'll give people the tools to be able to construct public speaking or conversations just like that. I think you you have you have actually I think even for yourself you have seen yourself improve your conversations from podcast episode one day right 100% and it's all about practice yeah so practice practice practice what advice would you give to people that you know are in a corporate job that love doing things a little bit unusual right because a lot of people I I almost feel live in fear they they they hide things um you know so how would you advise people you know listen you and chase your dreams. Be authentic. Yeah. Um firstly, be good at your job first. That's the most important. You have to be. Yeah. Once you're good at your job or you're confident at your job, then just do it because what's wrong? I mean, obviously, don't have a hobby that's taking drugs or something illegal. But yeah, but I mean, have a hobby, just do it because And remember to make sure you're good at your job first. Yeah. Well, you know, you know, it's interesting. Um, I went to watch I can't remember which one. I think it was I it was Kabib and Connor. Okay. And I this was in uh Vegas, the one where he fought he jumped out of the cage. Okay. So I bought my son who was 11 at the time. That's how he fell in love with MMA and he just had done his PSLE and I told a friend of mine, a client of mine who's a CEO of the bank and he goes, "You're going for three nights." I said, "Yeah." Goes, "I wish I had your life." Yeah. And uh and what I realized is cuz there will always be people think well you know you focusing on your job but I literally was gone for three nights and it was but the truth is is that I think a lot of people truly that they have an appreciation admiring cuz they know if you're doing your job and you deliver um that's a big thing and and I've always felt and the thing I explain to people is if I didn't do that if I didn't pursue those passions or go on holiday once or twice a year I I wouldn't be able to deliver work. Y do you know what I mean? They're inextricably linked. Yep. And that goes back to you being who you are, right? And like I'm I'm psychotic like you. Like I will fly if I know Darren Brown is performing in London. I will show I will go and watch it. But but as I said that is that authenticity you bring because if MMA ever comes up and we're both seated in the same room, you and someone else, no one can recreate your passion and knowledge for it, right? And this is all part of forming who you are as a person. It's big, right? It's so important. Um, who has inspired you both in magic and in in the finance world. So in magic it will be obviously Pen and Tella that I said it just now. And for mentalism will be Darren Brown. I think I I like to say I would like my magic to be an amalgamation of these three characters where it's you don't take yourself seriously. you're a bit skeptical about everything and you just make fun of yourself and yeah it's just all tricks right I'm not taking myself like I'm this too seriously yeah not too seriously so that's on the magic front and when it comes to banking you'll go back to the start of the conversation it'll be my dad I think he has been great counsel and over the years I've realized that experience is everything like it's really really invaluable you don't need to be the smartest and that just doesn't apply just for banking but anything experience is a lot yeah by by way. One other thing about your dad was he's always been incredibly kind. Yeah. Cuz when I met him, I was very young, you know, and uh that's rare. Yeah. You know, it wasn't like I had to prove myself to him. Um so that that's very special. What does success look like for you now in business and in your career cuz you you operate and work with so many successful business people. I think on my personal front I think what I would just want to be a banker that will be in it for the long haul you know it's it's a very cruel game finance and I just want to be there it is for longevity and I want to make sure that my clients trust me uh until the day I call it a day right I mean I hope they trust me and with everything because we're not just covering them in finances we we see them through marriages divorces there's kids, I mean, deaths, everything we see it through. And and yeah, I think that's something that I would on a on a private professional friend would like. By by the way, I think one of your USPs if you're talking to a client is that I've never resigned. I'm long-term. I'm all in. That's huge. Huge. Quick rapid fire, two questions. What excites you most about your job? I know you said that it's business, but what excites you the most? Uh, meeting all kinds of people. They could be conmen or they could be the next multi-billion. Yeah. There's a fine line between the two. It's a fine line and you meet all kinds of people in this job. It's exciting and that's where I get to kind of test my my judgment skills of a person. Yeah. I'm curious because I'm an entrepreneur and I just think there are just different levels and and it's funny, you know, when I was a martial artist and a fighter, I I I didn't really have a great deal of fear. I was always a little bit nervous about the opponent. But in business, um, you know, I've worked so hard and I come from a humble background. I'm nervous to to bet everything now. Yeah. And what I found is there's there's a Donald Trump saying, which is if I owe the bank a million dollars, you know, you're in trouble. But if you owe them 100 million, they're in trouble. Yeah. And when I look at the the ultra high, Yeah. they double down big time. Yes. I think it's uh entrepreneurship is is a drug. Like that's something I see like a lot of entrepreneurs when they get their huge series E levels. You think that I would pack up and call it a day and this will just be on the beach somewhere, right? They will go on to the next thing. And that's what I see about entrepreneurs and they're all serial entrepreneurs. I've not met a successful entrepreneur that say, "Okay, I'm done." Yeah. They keep going. Yeah. They keep going and they next next I've analyzed that. It's it's it's part of their fabric, you know. It's um cuz again I was having a discussion with my friend about money and he he always felt historically that I I set high numbers um and I said well it's not like I'm going to go and you know buy all these things but it's it's if you're at a certain level you know as an ex sprinter if if I can run this type that's my benchmark you know I'm not comparing myself to anyone else and I think in business it's the same thing you have if you have high expectations of yourself that's what you're benchmarking against. Um, if you could go back in time and change any approach that you had towards becoming a private bank and being a private banker, what would it be if any? H I think I would have I don't live with a lot of regrets, but I think I would dial it back in cuz I used to be very aggressive with getting business done. I think now how so? What do you mean? Um I would really push it through where if it's handling compliance matters or talking to credit, these are things that I'm very aggressive. Bulldog it through. Yeah. Bulldog it through. But I think now almost like Floyd, right? You need to kind of pick and choose your spots. So I think that's something that I'll change. And but I don't regret it. I think it comes again with experience. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be able to learn from it. Yeah. Yeah. So on that note, again, one of the things I've realized and I was talking to my sales team yesterday. said, "Look, in order to really know what the edge of the limits are, you have to redline conversations early on in your career, cuz that's how you learn. If you play in a safe zone all the time, your your room and margin to to get better is minimal." Yeah. And I think, you know, the bank that I'm from, uh that was where I learned it from. It's a very entrepreneurial place. It's all about business and it's Yeah. learning how to push it through in a compliant manner. But yeah, you still there's still a lot of roadblocks just like any company because there's bureaucracy, there's politics and all that. I've got to use a Yol Romero MMA quote. Yeah. Go. Yeah. Go. Just go. I love that. I absolutely love it. Um, what piece of advice would you have for junior bankers coming up into the system? Yeah. I don't think I'm senior enough to give like advice. But I think it will be again to be authentic and be who you are because people can smell the BS. Yeah. The BS from a mile away and no matter how dumb you think a client is, no, they're not. Oh, right. No, they're really not. Yeah. No matter how they source where they source away from, they're people are not stupid. So that's something I would be just be authentic and remember that money is not the goal. That's the most important. Money is a byproduct of your good work. So I think that is something that sales people always forget. What's one trait that every private banker must have? Um they need to be honest and they need to be someone that your clients can trust everything with. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz cuz you see everything, the whole thing. Correct. If you weren't a banker, what would you be doing today? Uh, I'll be doing maybe what you're doing like a career coming up with some kind of career coaching stuff. Yeah. Public speaking. That's my that's my passion. Or maybe doing magic. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. You know, you know what I what I love about life is is like, you know, I don't even know when you and I ever talked about work. In fact, what do you what were you doing when I first met you? Were you you weren't even in banking yet, were you? I was I was in banking. Just started. I was still a contractor and doing magic on the side. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what I love about life because I realize that, you know, when you talk to people and it doesn't have to be all about work. That's one thing I always say, by the way. So, one of my training methodologies is with my guys when we're doing role play, ask a workrelated question and then a personal related question. And then when we're playing this game is make sure that your questions are scattered because when you meet someone like so if I'm interviewing candidates let's say there are 10 people technically very very similar what separates them is their individuality you know are they going to be able to walk the floor engage people uh speak to clients well and that that's all to do with personality. Yes it is everything big time right I thought you were going to say you'd be a magician. Um, what book changed your perspective on finance? Is there anything that you've read, watched, listened to? Yes. Uh, the first when I became a banker, my dad gave me this book, Winning Relationships by Andrew Crook or Andrew Cook, I can't remember. Winning relationships. That was I read that. Yeah. He said that is the book that he gives every banker that joins him. Yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. So, he gives he gave that to me and it's a very simple book. It's nothing confusing. It's a very simple book on just how to be a good private banker. I want to read that for sure. Did your dad give you any other nuggets of wisdom? I mean, now that you're a banker, has he given you two or three things that you he thinks that you should keep in your back pocket all the time? He always he always stresses the long game. He say this is not an overnight thing. Uh don't chase the short-term gains. It's it's a long game. Um and yeah, you're doing more and you're not do you're more than a finance person for for the client. I think bankers my age is very interesting. I was talking to him that day that we are actually pioneers of a certain sense because we are the ones who are actually seeing the transfer of wealth. My parents time they were setting up the trust structures. They were setting up that preservation but now we're actually following through with the transfer of wealth which even the most senior bankers have never done it because these are they they dealt with the first generation not the second generation. It's evolving. Exactly. No, that's brilliant. Um, what's a personal finance rule or hack that you live by? Don't sweat the small stuff. Okay. Yeah, that's a good book by the way as well. Yeah. Okay. What are common misconceptions that people have about private bankers and about magic? Uh, when it comes to private bankers is all of them play golf. They're into wine and they like expensive watches. I don't have expensive watches. I don't like wine and I don't play golf. So, I could be the worst banker ever. What What are your three uh vices then or things that you enjoy? I love standup comedy. I love Who who are your top three favorite comedians? Louis CK. Okay. That is the number one for me. Love De Chappelle. I knew you were going to say Chappelle. Yeah. And uh my I think Richard Carlin. Uh yeah, I think these are the top three. Yeah. You know what's interesting? So, this is a question. George Collins. Richard. Yeah. No, George. He's brilliant. Um I I I placed the head of private equity in a private bank some time back and on the surface of it he's very straight laced and I asked him I said do you like comedy he goes yeah why how do you know I said just some of the things that you said I said who's your favorite and he said Chappelle all day and then he he's then you he completely would change your opinion of who this guy is because you know that they can laugh themselves right and then so then you can chat a lot more crap on the you know and he enjoy the banter um wait for a magician the worst thing would be that you use magic to pick up girls. It's a common mistake. I've never done that. So you've never Oh, you didn't need it? I I never done that. Yeah, cuz I've kind of like the art too much to kind of cheapen it today. Really? You better know. If I had your skills back in the day, I would have used it for sure. Um, what's your go-to productivity hack? Balancing everything. Working out, I think, and having enough sleep. That's something that I I mean I'm not like I'm not jacked or anything, but I think just kind of stepping out of the office and getting enough. What do you do? Do you do some cardios and weight training? Um I do a lot of yoga and I do a lot of long runs. That's my thing. Yeah, really long runs. What's long run? Like 10 to 15k. Really? Yeah. Just to kind of How what once a week or what? Uh if I'm not working out, I tend to do those long runs. It's like a recovery run, but it kind of puts me, it tortures me and kind of puts me back, centers me, and then I get a good sweat and I'm Do you listen to anything or you're not? I'm always listening to something. I'm never not listening to something. That's that's Oh, maybe that's a productivity act. I'm always listening to a podcast or audio book. I I'll add to that. Yeah. The I I say to people like my wife, I'll just say you don't realize you're dependent upon listening. Yeah. And or music. Yeah. Right. And so there'll be times, so yesterday I went for an hour and 10 minute walk. I hurt my foot the other day, so I couldn't run. I can't run. But my gift to myself was I wouldn't listen to anything, but I failed because I sent about 50 messages on my WhatsApp. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so actually I I I didn't get I got the physical, but I didn't get the the mental break. So I usually switch it to airplane mode and I'll download the episode on say Spotify and I'll just listen through it. Yes. And during that 1 hour, one and a half hours, I try to disconnect. So, what are the the top podcasts that you listen to at the moment? Um, I love Pendullet's podcast. That's a that's a big one. And of course, uh, we have Diary of a CEO was a recent one that I started listening. Thought it was pretty good. Chris, why the hell haven't you said quintessential questions? And of course, last but not least, I was getting there. I had to save the best for last. Yeah. And I think that's and the last one obviously I mean you try to escape it but you can't. It'll be Joe Rogan number one podcast. It's just the people you bring on that it's well you and I being fans of his because gone way back because of MMA and comedy right and you know the podcast has blown up beyond that but I I tend quite frankly I tend to just listen to very selective ones. Yeah. I like to see who he has on and if sometimes when I'm I just really don't want to think it. I would listen to the entire like protect our parks episode where he get comedians on it just drinking. I kind of feel like it's a hang in my head. I'm hanging out with the boys. Yeah. It's and I just switch off. So that's that's another thing. You don't have to be productive all the time. So I'll tell you an interesting one. So I went to the inaugural Abu Dhabi UFC event. Okay. And um it was outdoors and I I Was this the Anderson Silva one? Yeah, the one that was running around. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was It was so disappointing as a fight. Great memory, by the way. And I went to the hotel and what was really weird was all the fighters are having breakfast together. So he was fighting Damen Meer. Yeah. And so Dame Meer's table was there. He was there and Anderson Silva was on his PSP, you know, with his headphones in. And um so I met him. I met GSP. He wasn't fighting, but he was there. And I met Joe Rogan. And Joe Rogan was just he's just so nice and obliging. Yeah. Um so engaging. And you know, this was before his podcast was what what makes me laugh? It annoys me. But even people that know me really well. Yeah. Have you have you heard of this person? You should listen to this. And I was thinking, mate, I I I've watched more of his comedy shows in live in person than you've listened to a podcast. Do you know what I mean? But it's just it's just how it's blown and it's crazy, right? Well, Chris, look, it's been an absolute pleasure. It has been, Paul. It's it flew by, man. I thought we I was worried we didn't have anything to go, but it was a fantastic We could We should have easily done another hour, but I'd love to have you back on when when you've set up the business. We will and with your partner. Definitely. All right, man. Perfect. Thanks for having me. Cheers. Thanks, Paul. Thank you. That was

‍