#3 with Gareth Nicholson: Career Transformation, from Math Teacher to CIO

[Applause] [Music] hey guys for today's podcast we're joined by a very good friend of mine Mr Gareth Nicholson great guy originally from South Africa he's currently the chief investment officer and head of discretionary portfolio management and managed Investments for a major private bank here in Asia with oversight for Singapore Hong Kong and Dubai in today's discussion we talk a little bit about his journey um growing up in South Africa moving to London and then moving here to Asia in Singapore what it was like moving from Asset Management to private banking welcome Gareth cheers G man how are you very well thank you it's good to see you mate too what you been up to yeah keeping out of Mischief as much as I can busy times I hear you yeah um yeah work play kids trying to find a good balance it's it's a lot of work now for the audience if you can be kind enough just introduce yourself who you are what do you do sure uh Gareth Nicholson um I'm a CIO at namura International my background I come from South Africa I was born there grew up there whereabouts in South Africa um close to Cape Town okay um so that was the the nice bit When We Were Young close to the beach running around playing uh in the sticks in what we call the Felts which was just at in the in the garden uh and the neighbors just digging holes and and messing around and then uh for you know job reasons money reasons dad and moved us up to Janis BG or some close to janb how how old were you when you guys moved up we about 12 13 is jbg I've not been is it very different from K Town massively I mean the beach is very chilled slow that's like going to uh um you know a really small little town in Australia where it's sleepy uh and this is outside of Cape Town and then Jonesburg is more like being in a city um we were still in the suburbs but you've got that hustle and bustle and that kind of movement that you need um I was still relatively in the suburbs but you could feel it wasn't the same sort of kind of relaxed atmosphere so you had to kind of as always pick up your pace and look to find hustles to to keep you going um but it was good it was a good childhood when when you uh left Cape Town and then moved to jber how old were you 13 13 so high school was all there uh um no I started High School in Jonesburg no that's what I mean so so then so in terms of like when cuz you know where I grew up in the UK cuz I know you played rugby for example is it based on the school that you go to that they have a certain Sport AS was season so South Africa cricket was the summer months rugby was the winter months and everyone just played like that okay in K Town you played from uh four five years old you were on the beach playing rugby okay in Johannesburg you only started 789 so we had four or five years uh on top of the Jobo guys so we came there I was pretty good at early age uh gave me a bit of a head start so played a lot of rugby U which was that was that your first love sportswise uh be honest growing up parents a bit like unlike today it was oh you finished school okay that's your report but are you in the sports team are you in the cricket team you're in the Athletics team it was massively pushing uh Sports and being outside and running around academic was secondary to uh being part of a team to being was that was that your parents specifically or do you think was that cuz my my dad was like that but my mom wasn't like that uh definitely my parents um but I don't really remember too many of the tiger mom parents in in our school I don't think of any of my friends that were really pushed academically it wasn't really a thing uh you you know you know in Singapore it's difficult because I've had two kids go through psle and we try to alleviate any stress and pressure but the reality is it's in the ecosystem right so they're there and the teachers are stressing out the other parents are stressing out and it's you know it's that vicious cycle well exactly cuz you you you try not put that extra pressure because they've got enough but if everyone around them is thinking about is talking about it it's it's pretty difficult but at the same time I think kids do need a level of pressure we had pressure if we didn't make the rugby team we had pressure if we weren't in the cricket team I think that pressure kind of drives you but you still have to have an outlet that you have fun so as long as they're still studying hard but they have an outlet to Have Fun sports I think is a little bit easier because when you're really playing with your friends Outdoors even if you're taking it seriously there's an elements of fun built into it studying sometimes you don't get that right do you do you feel I know I'm a little bit biased here but when I meet people professionally that did a lot of sports and Es especially at a good level I've I always think listen they're probably going to be very good at work because they'll take those skills they're transferable and that work ethic you know that dedication do you think like that as well or I think it gives you uh different dimensions and I think people with more Dimensions makes it more interesting and more able to adapt so if you're very good at sports and what happens for most people is you you you get to a high level at a certain stage and then you realize wow it's either genetics I just don't have that makeup to continue I'm just not lucky that I'm in a in a country where this sport has enough capacity and you have to decide you know what uh I'm not going to be 100% a professional Sportsman and I'm going to move on so then you have to say wow I need to adapt I need to take that that logic and I need to apply it to to whatever field I'm going to go for very true so for me when when I um left the UK I knew I was probably wasn't going back was it the same for you or uh no I was I didn't have plans be honest I literally uh my my stubbornness uh was lucky enough to fall into a CR I come from a country where 40% of the youth are unemployed all right so w and when and maybe when I was growing up it was probably closer to maybe 253 but there weren't that many jobs uh so you but at the same time people weren't pushing for the academic side so I my stubbornness of I really love solving problems which turned into a love for mathematics and problem solving and kind of engineering turned into I need to make money so I started tutoring uh then I studied maths uh what did you study at Uni mathematics okay yeah and that's how you became a part-time math teacher yeah and then uh then I became a full-time math teacher after school so I was teaching high school students how was that brilliant still probably my favorite job I was 23 teaching 17 year olds uh in remember in South Africa we we my wife still laughs but we had at least 2 hours a day where teachers weren't around so you would have frees we had a lack of teachers so whenever they had someone that was willing to teach uh they were very accommodative so uh I was uh the youngest teacher in the school by a while but uh uh but they needed teachers so I bet the kids they they probably connected with you we did we did it was it was great and because I was still kind of learning at the same time at University uh uh and teaching um parttime so it was a good connection I really really enjoyed it but you didn't make any money I'd never been overseas before uh so 23 never been overseas someone said o I'm going to uh I'm going to London you want to come with yeah and was able to get a Visa back then because of the Commonwealth so it was a 2-year work in Visa went over to London sold my car I my dad used to work as an Auctioneer so he uh used to sell cars and and houses and things we got a really cheap City Golf I don't know if you remember those old small City golfs of course so fixed it up me and my brother um we loved it put the big speakers in the back the wer yeah exactly and then we sold that and use that money to go overseas uh and oh so you went together uh he came for a little bit then he went and uh followed his career as a as a pilot oh wow so he went to Botswana where it's easier to get flying hours yeah so he got stuck there for 15 years and I got stuck in the in London for 12 years but is he flying domestically internationally or so he loves flying and to uh he says flying the big planes is like riding a bus yeah and nowadays it's so much he says you make a lot of money but he doesn't enjoy that side so he pved and he got his helicopter license oh wow uh so now he's in Australia flying uh between the Ms and uh really those kind of things so wow you know there's always one in the family that's a cool kid yeah fortunately uh I thought that was you he's even cooler than yoube way behind I'm way behind wow so when you went to London you didn't you knew no one you didn't know what you're going to do yeah we had an an on way back that apparently uh you know there was Family Tires she kept us for a few days where was it in London was it old's court or something she uh they were in Maidstone but we there long before we were kicked out because uh we were spending more time in Lon coming back after a few beers I bet um and then we found a place in in the East near um place called barking the time was a little bit uh Rough and Ready but it was close to Liverpool streets and that seemed like that was a place where it was really interesting and I got a job in a pub in Liverpool streets where I was working and and honestly in those days one of the skill sets that was highly uh highly um appreciated was ability to hold a conversation and hold a beer so honestly that's what got me into my first job it wasn't my master degree it was the ability to talk to people at the pub be able to hold a conversation to be engaging and then one day the guy said I got an opening but by any chance you know like anything about maths yeah actually I'm not too bad at that are you serious and that's how I got into derivative trading so from the pub went to a big Investment Bank my internship yeah was uh was through that um and I was was very lucky was a great guy uh and so you know there wasn't any internship program or applying to XYZ the interview was in the pub um and it was a lovely guy and we just kind of worked towards it that's amazing yeah and uh yeah and I think that was the difference was the ability to talk and connect with people back then um meant that you kind of had things already when you hit the hit the floor to talk about so you spend so many hours with people but how often do you actually know the people you work with yeah and you can do an interview process you can do 10 different interviews people are already on their aame they're kind of in in a different kind of mode you don't get to know someone until you spend time with them very true um but being able to relax and and have a drink I'm not saying drink is the only way to get to know someone but in London back in the that's the culture right that was the culture yeah I'll tell you a quick funny story so back in the day when I started in recruitment U I had a gig at The Institute of electrical engineers which is right next to the seavoy hotel and I had sold it to them that I would provide all their Silver Service wine waiters Sous chefs you name it and had a massive gig that night with 250 uh guests and unfortunately three of the wine waiters didn't turn up on the day right cuz they were getting paid £450 an hour and I had hired all of my friends that went to UNI cuz they'd already paid for their travel card so they were already in central London and the gig was like from 6:00 to 10:30 and I'm panicking and I'm 18 and it's the first time i' I've won this contract and I'm thinking got solve this what am I going to do so I don't even remember there was a shop called Mr bught and it was just it was Bargain Basement clothing so I went and bought three waste coats three shirts three bow ties um and three pairs of pants trousers and uh I thought I've got to I'm going to call some more friends nothing so I went to the pub at the top of the Strand and these three South African guys were in there and we were talking and I'd been into the pub a few times before um and I just said how you guys doing how much do you earn an hour and um I said look I've got a gig working four nights a week uh I can pay you £6 80 an hour which was my charge out rate so there'd be no profit um the only thing is you have to leave now and they hated their boss apparently they said what right now I said I'll pay you cash in hand tonight I took my total net worth out of the bank to do this fantastic and On The Edge on the edge they left with me it was so we were walking we were walking down to the Institute of electrical engineers filling in in their health declaration forms and I was teaching they they were bans so they knew how to do most things but they didn't know how to serve white wine red wine pork madira and I remember and but you know you're 18 you're in it you're in the game you're not really thinking how amazing it is but when I looked back it was brilliant I get I get like Goosey uh you know tingling feeling hearing that because that's kind of how you create memories right and I bet you you had to touch base with those guys again they would remember it You' be able to link because you you're creating things that are just like out of the norm it's different bring in energy you had to bring super energy to that engagement to get them involved right awesome so then what happened after that so where were you working what did you do on the driv side so uh I was working at uh firsty settlements on the derivative desk uh for I don't know if we we can say names um yeah if you want to yeah so it was deuta Bank okay so deuta Bank in the city in London as I said I'd never worked uh in a in a big firm before so where was their office there was was uh one appold street which is just behind Liverpool Street Station okay uh so Liverpool Street was the epicenter for you yeah and to be honest the reason I went for this job because I was offered another job uh in um in finan was a as a teller and was going to get paid more money okay um but when I went to the recruitment agent um and and those days they used to have a magazine I can't remember what it was called TNT or something but they used to have all these kind of job descriptions and I went through that looking at what sounded good and I combined all the things that sounded good and kind of put it into a into a wish list and what kept popping up was this idea of a Trader and I didn't really know exactly what it was about um but when I went to this this job recruiter that was going to offer me this Bank job I remember clearly she said no you'll never be a Trader that's just impossible you'll never be a Trader and as soon as she said you it's impossible then I started driving and I think it's sometimes that the Universe speaking to you because when this guy in the pub was talking about trading I'm sure I probably gave out the right kind of energy and that kind of attracted the role but long story short I got in a very Junior role at derivative trading and fixed income which was very big back in the day in London um uh did my job I was pretty good at I wouldn't say the best by any means but I did find that um everything was very manual back then okay uh and with a bit of a a logic to solving problems and a very impatient person uh and uh I hate repetitive things I was I taught myself some basic programming uh some some VBA and python stuff uh and I automated my job so literally there was four people doing our job uh and I automated my job Away really uh and the guys around me were saying yeah yeah but you've you don't you know if you keep doing it at the speed it only takes us 2 weeks to finish this as part of the thingy uh done it in 3 days um I'm like yeah but I can't just sit doing this it's driving me crazy yeah uh anyway I was fortunate to do that not complex but at the time no one was doing it and the boss then said wait a second come I've got another role and then he got me actually talking to uh the other guys who were a lot of English guys actually living in the East so given I was living in the east in barking and went to Romford for a drink and stuff I could again luckily connect uh and then I just flew from there then we started trading a lot more derivatives uh uh so interest rate swaps uh future CDs um and and that was before the GFC uh so these really ballooned if you think of what's happened in the finance World those kind of derivatives really really ballooned uh in the early days going from like 2 to 2007 2008 uh and I was kind of part of that wave which was which was quite exciting it was a really uh um you know good time to be in London to be young guy working there um what but what a switch for you like you know at what point do you think am I really here you know cuz you were in the bar 5 minutes before yeah well we were slly in the bar a fair amount of time to be honest but it it it was really good and and what I really liked about it was kind of that old school you had to be involved so we had rules if you were you typically had to be in the office 6:30 6:45 if you're in after 7 years to buy everyone breakfast okay and this wasn't just like fun ha you were buying people breakfast but you also knew your boss was going to be on your back my my boss absolutely fantastic still probably my best boss I've ever had was an old old school options Trader from Chicago he actually worked in the pits really a short guy with a turtle neck glasses and he would absolutely rip you to piece if you got something wrong he would take you apart but if someone ever attacked his team yeah he would defend you to the hell he would absolutely defend the team like we had never done anything wrong he would push back like you've never seen then behind closed doors you get he would then you would get it but you knew exactly where you stood that old school mentality fantastic fantastic and he he grew a team that were around him for 7even eight n years he had that stability we we worked hell of a hard together we in early we left late we uh we had fun together we partied we traveled we did our things um it was it was phenomenal but he he knew how to build that team that culture are you still in touch with him yeah brilliant so then what happened after that what was the next stage of your career so I got uh again a bit of luck but maybe like Gary Player says you know the harder work your lucky you get but I was coming close to the end of the uh uh the work permits that I'd been able to extend and I was thinking maybe it's time to go back to South Africa how how old were you at this stage 24ish 25ish somewhere around there and um oh I think somewhere but basically yeah I think around there maybe a little older but about 2007 is and what happened was um a huge hedge fund it come in and we were doing very well at the time uh at the at the bank and they oh so two things happened firstly um uh Doo Bank sold out this part of the business to an asset management okay and we went and started working for abidine Asset Management Scottish firm that also has a fantastic working environment really great in London was Really Work Hard Play Hard great Christmas parties great teamwork they really did you know who they were beforehand or not really no I remember that's the irony right yeah so they just came in one day and said we're buying you out it was a big takeover they've always had a great reputation I remember back home right yeah uh and I mean they did a lot about us we had five five different buyouts as was the biggest over five years during this period so so many changes so many people also leaving uh moving but with this boss he was able to keep his team very stable during that period and we really appreciate it because you saw a lot of people moving because you know were you the only non Brit or was it an Eclectic team I think I was and there was uh yeah yeah there was a few Irish um and mainly English and I was the only uh real isn't it funny when you live abroad because the the one thing I miss about living you know in England and Ireland is the banter yes I I love the banter nonstop right nonstop I mean you you you've got to be on your A game nearly every day or you're going to get you're going to get it oh you're going to get it every day anyway especially when you you don't know football as well as the other guys or you think rugby is better than football or something like that it's a um and most of them come from you know the east or it was just really good good fun but what happened then was um after we were at the firm um and the team was doing very well in the period I was fortunate that um a huge hedge fund came in and they basically poached the very senior guys from the team oh really so they came in and they said boom cuz we uh we had kind of collectively joined together with the portfolio managers and the Traders at the time and we had a really good thing going for a few years great performance and they came in one of the biggest hedge funds still today um they came in and said thank you guys uh uh we'd love for you guys to come on board and I remember Sunday evening uh my boss phoned through he had now been management so he was managing a few teams so he wasn't part of this kind of nucleus but uh he said look it's a great opportunity for these guys this is a really a great space uh um like to keep you but I appreciate these guys are going to give you a a nudge and if you want to go along with them he was very honest and we had a real Frank discussion um and it sounded great and it was great for these guys as well um but me personally um there was no guarantee of any sort of extra employment I would have been on a work permit going forward and the bank then said you know what we want to keep you we will commit to getting your uh your passport which at this stage was five more working years with support from the company that that's the other thing a lot of people don't realize if you're a foreigner in a country you feel restricted you're always on that cautious SP you lose your job you got to you got to move and that that's that's the thing right so so then what happened how did that unfold so uh that again was a sign of wow I'm lucky and they really really value me they're going to go through this extra level of uh support and go through it so I said you know what I I'll stick around this is fantastic uh and it ended up me getting my British passport which has opened up many doors for me which is which is great because on a afri have you got a dual passport yeah yeah on a African passport you can't really travel without visas to very few a lot of restrictions a lot of restrictions and then working becomes even more difficult yeah um and I was able to pass it to my son as well now which has also been a benefit for the whole family um but what happened with that was sticking with with uh with the company also meant that um from being a junior in a team um and then a lot of the seniors leaving the business is still there yeah I got pushed up I had to take responsibility I was the only person or one of a few that uh knew the whole product from uh from end to end so your opportunity just went right up brilliant uh and the timing was phenomenal because we were heavily droth those Traders and because all the senior guys have left the natural thing to do is take risk really really low prudent we you know you don't want to be taking a large amount of risk and what happened just after 2006 2007 bang bang so we looked very smart because we were holding a very low amount of risk compared to a lot of other players at the time so exposure was minimal exactly so because of that uh and we didn't really go back after GFC to a big derivative uh desk they said where do you want to go you've proven yourself and then I was able to start choosing where I want to go and I'm just curious is that your boss is it HR or is it a group of people I think I think what happens in my uh you know humble opinion is as soon as you saw start building Capital with one person and you get that and if they're respected in The Firm you can slowly start leveraging that across HR you know you know this is something I think a lot of people maybe it's they realize it but they don't think about if you don't have a Godfather or godmother in the business it's so much more difficult you know you need that that sponsor or ideally a few few Champions yeah I I keep thinking it's it's not about charity it's about a partnership yeah you can't be looking for someone just to give you help all the time % you've got to be able to be able to making them look better supporting them giving that stability showing that you also solve their problems because the more you can help them and give give give give eventually you can go to them and ask them but if you just go and ask someone it's the same as like you probably see you know on LinkedIn you get requests all the time someone comes straight out and says I need your help to do X yeah I'm like you've got to build up a relationship with anyone before you start asking for things very particularly with a company particularly when you want something big like maybe moving abroad or work permit or something you got to kind of bold that relationship you know what's interesting though cuz I find a lot of people very transactional and for me if you you don't need to do something for a reason if you just try and help people you know it will come back and I've always subscribed to a rising tide raises All Ships um but I think it's a bit sad in our industry not everyone necessarily subscribes to that um and I saw the Rock post something the other day on his birthday and um he was talking about success and he said look he's been fortunate and blessed to get where he is but his goal is to elevate everyone that works with him and vice versa um and if you meet people like that that are like-minded bang exactly you know super lucky if you can find someone that wants to do that yeah so then so then so then they said to you what do you want to do and what what did you say well um then I I had a choice so I was able to say where's the in my head where is the most exciting next space at that stage after GFC it was the uh European crisis it was what they used to call the pigs the Portugal Italy uh uh you know Spain Greece so I said I want to work on the desk that looks at that uh and that opened up a lot of interesting uh space because you really get to dive into you know where the the tire hits the floor the traction was some it was tough in Europe back then so really got to understand that and then when they started getting clearer um I said well emerging Markus I'm South African I want to dive into that and and the team were fantastic uh uh and so just started expanding out uh and then I was like okay I'm I'm doing Emerging Markets across the globe but I've only ever lived in South Africa in the UK I should explore so me and the wife said where do we want to go and we said how how old we got married um you should know this G you should know this 30 30 30 okay yeah 10 years 10 years wow congrats man 31 31 okay yeah so then uh the the goal was uh let's go over to Asia and again dumb luck where um we heard of Hong Kong being really fun we had friends that lived in Australia so we said okay it's either going to be Hong Kong or Australia and the company said well look we got an opening in Singapore why don't you go and try go and look at the map find out where Singapore is literally that kind of side we had you did you come out before you took the job no I love it man I love it so uh what was the mes doing at the time she also quite exciting she um she was an interior designer uh then during GFC it kind of uh blew up so she started her own uh uh for a company she started her own uh and also being quite approachable and friendly uh she found a friend of a friend that owns a large amount of the hotels around s pancreas really San pancreas at that stage had just got the Eurostar yeah so you went from an area that wasn't that it was you know King's cross what his reputation was back then exactly so he owned a lot of the hotels around King's cross a lot which were not the best in at that stage he completely gentrified now and my wife's job at that stage was be given an open checkbook to convert one two star hotels to fourstar hotels really so she had a credit card to go and buy furniture and go crazy and for interior designer architect that was Heaven yeah but that might have had consequences on your relationship cuz she might have thought I'm going to do this at home as well well exactly we're still renovating every three months but that's uh that's another pain B but yeah so she absolutely loved that and to her credit she said okay let's let's do this uh and we came over here with the intention of maybe starting a business up again in Singapore but it was difficult we were not PRS or anything when a on an EP uh you had to have hire x amount of people and earn certain it's so toughing that so she had to Pivot and to a point she pivoted and uh and she's enjoying it and uh she kind of uh we kind of went from there so what year was this when you came to Singapore 2000 we've been here 12 years now so okay 2012 and then what was the gig in Singapore it was tradeing derivatives for emerging markets okay uh PM uh at abedine so I was with them for 14 years which I really really really recommend at your early ages you know delay gratification focus on learning and then earning uh and move within a company for sure but have those that Capital that you can buy I could still go back to my boss even when I was working for another boss and say what do you think you know the politics how does this work that's huge I think I think longevity and loyalty it's it's overlooked a little bit these days right CU people always say to me I'm in in the head hunting business um you know we you must move a lot of people multiple times I said well actually in the last 17 and a half years that I've been a business owner just over 96% of the people we've placed believe it or not are still working where we placed them right so but I I believe in that that's fantastic you got to find the company that matches the person and if it matches and the company doesn't change then that you know as long as you feel like you're still learning and and hopefully earning at the same time you stick with the company and you just move to where the next yeah synergies were the senior managers were they very International were there a few guys from Scotland what was the outfit like yeah it was it was uh very International back then uh people from all over uh uh but still also a really great uh really great culture so you would have uh the wine trolley come around on a Friday which was lovely really but then even better than that was the last person that was employed he was the one that would pour wine for everyone so if it was a senior managing director it was his turn to go around and pour wine and the best was when you had a a hiring freeze and the senior manager was the last one hired and he had to spend 6 months every Friday pouring wine for for everyone right up to the Juniors so this was 4:30 on a on a Friday afternoon so what so when is so the wine Traer brings in a bunch of and the the head of the company was a big wine coner he brought his brought gave his wine to the team they just comeing you'd have a glass of wine at the desk and you finish your last half an hour of work and then you all go and have a drink after work and you had have fun and that atmosphere then grew into so many things so one of the things I'm proud of uh is for the last at least 10 years every year we've gone out and done something a little bit crazy with the team no matter where I've been so for example last year we did a Cambodia charity tour we also all learned how to be performers circus performers really this year the team all went to uh uh to to Tuscany or part of my team and we did wine Golf and uh um wine Golf and and steak and we really got to know each other we go to Philippines to do uh Habitat for Humanity where you actually get to bold alongside professional bow to someone's home later this year amazing and I've done one of these or two of these every year for the last 10 years have you been sourcing all of these cuz I know I know you would have done Tuscany yeah oh yes tell us about your love affair with Tuscany that's just uh after the co uh I I don't know what's your feeling of Co but Co was really tough and in Singapore it's like a blurry memory I was talking about this yesterday it was like what what the hell did we do for two years yeah parts of it I wish we still had like the amount of time we could spend with with young kids and being close and not focusing on you know just focusing on the now because you didn't know what was actually happening I don't know if if this sounds crazy I'm sure you're probably saying I actually enjoyed a big chunk of it because because you know that you we're never going to get this again and but we were we were lucky that we that we were had some money we were employed and exactly exactly we were very fortunate again like you know most things that kind of happened that we had a little bit of space and I had a young family and he couldn't move anywhere he was only my boy's five now so he was only you know really early early stages then so got to spend a lot of time but the family Dynamic is extremely hard particularly when you don't even have family uh down the road see them in Singapore or in many places but when they were far away and your grandparents passing away so tough world became isolated so many people have left you know uh from working abroad to go closer to home you so many Australians moving back UK all over 100% So Co was very tough and we were very close to leaving um but we do love Singapore and I love the work um but we had to find a way of trying to connect family yeah and unfortunately South Africa is is not the easiest and most conducive Place particularly around Johannesburg for bringing a family every time it can be stressful and when you want to have holidays you want to try to find a space so we decided um we want to find a a place to bold Memories We spent two years when the kid was younger traveling around and we always just ended up going back to uh Italy for some reason Italy you land there and everything just calms down I never get stressed I don't know if it's the wine or the food or the air but it's it's it's everything right cuz the people are so amazing they love children oh yeah they love children right you you can go to a restaurant and you almost don't need to worry about the kids you know the N will look after the kids right you sit at that restaurant the person will come over and my son will go but and 20 minutes the Waits will be chatting and laughing with him and and make him happy and you can see that other people aren't getting served but they're patient yeah and they're having a moment and they respect that there's not this Rush that you get in big cities and we absolutely loved him and we said okay we're going to find a space to build memories here and all the family just come over uh and yeah we took a took a while we found a found a did you know Tuscany was the area that you wanted to home in on straight away or did you look at other places we be honest this was all everything we've ever done is iterations yeah we we went every holiday for 2 years we traveled a bit we tried we dragged the little guy uh we made it Adventures so each place was okay this is a castle you go and explore mom and dad are going to look to see if there's any leaking Taps and things like that uh but I love it uh and yeah we eventually found what what is like our our perfect holiday home family home and when you saw it like did you know okay we're going to make an offer we're going to try and close this deal no we took a bit of time we took our time a little bit and fortunately uh it kind of worked out the guy that owned it was a lovely guy even better than him who who's a lovely guy was the team that had been looking off the house for 20 years you and you told me it's it was already a functional Airbnb right exactly so we rented out for most of the year and then we take a couple months for the family and now this year was the first time I brought the team over uh and I mean people say don't you spend enough time with you yeah I'm like yeah but don't you want to build friendships with the people who spend so much time but how so how so how did you like speak to your boss and say this is what I'm going to be doing got very supportive bosses but we we said look we're going to make this work we will split the team in half half the team will go half the team will will cover it for this time and then next year we'll we'll swap that around so I went to the other half and said guys do you mind you know stepping up and and managing the be part of your team man come on well you know these guys had to travel we had guys from India Taiwan Singapore I'm South African totally different cultures one of the guys have never been overseas before like me a youngster L of them have never been to Italy what an amazing first trip he brilliant he went on the way from uh from uh Mumbai to uh to tuskin he stopped in Switzerland was he just fled he stayed two days there he walked 40,000 steps both days he just walked it flat listen I'm glad I'm glad he walked cuz taxes are blood expensive in he'd to take out a new mortgage but he absolutely well I think he he loved it and we got to then you know play golf together and simple things we we each had a turn to cook a meal and you get to see what your team is like one guy we didn't know he used to work as a chef he makes the best EX Benedict I've ever had so in the morning you've had a few glasses one the night before and you get one of the guys that is typically your funds analyst is now making the best egg B that's cuz everyone's got a little hidden secrets what talents get to know a little bit of this amazing so and then the Philippines cuz I know you've done a lot of charity work before so what are you doing there so uh I'm I I love obviously Charities I think we all do but I think there's a something that a lot of corporates Miss in my personal opinion is the the massive feeling you get when you're not only helping but you're also Bolding the team so if you do a charitable event where for instance at the one in the Philippines we we're going to help them build their home so basically we'll be mixing the cement and maybe putting a few bricks on alongside the boulders but we have to do something so different to our normal day job the energy we have to bring there is going to be quite high so the people that have committed to do that already know they've got to bring a level of energy but the energy you get back is three times and the amount of like bonding you get from a hard days of of real work at the end and you're sitting and you you're having a meal together and you think we built that wall yeah amazing it's going to be really fun really looking forward to the guys that can't do the trip they will help with fundraising yeah we'll do bag sales and a bit of fun we we we raise decent amount of money like 25 30,000 which is great for the charity it's not crazy project um but it's it's really just good fun which is great because it brings everyone together I think I think the the one thing that um is kind of overlooked at work is that fun element cuz I I've got a thing in my firm we do Friday gags we do wind ups and just you know you got to enjoy yourself a little bit and and uh if you're not able to have a glass of wine on a Friday afternoon with your colleagues what what are you doing that can be simple right we used to do it in London before like the Google days when you weren't allowed to use Google was like um you had to come up on a a on a Friday morning with some sort of question that uh everyone had to put their answer in and the furthest away had to buy lunch the uh the one that won had to buy the first drink so it's like how many black taxis would you have to pile on top of each other to get to the height of Big Ben oh really you all got to think and then and then someone says some stupid number and you can take the the laugh out of them and and someone gets simple things but it it makes the day a little bit more fun right yeah of course it does so abedine why did you decide to leave to go to Bank of Singapore well um I was fortunate that uh things were going well uh and I wanted to to kind of try to take a uh in essence in Singapore where's most of the money at the moment it's still uh largely in families and in private wealth uh and I thought from an asset management perspective uh it might be interesting to follow this new F growing uh pillar of wealth now Asset Management also work there but I wanted to see what that side was cuz cuz you had the foresight because a lot of people are now thinking of doing it right and not everyone had the courage had you been thinking about it already mve to private banking uh I I the margins uh at least uh they're getting smaller but the margins were higher there for for products you had more interaction with the with the clients I think that's where the world's kind of going it used to be uh from investment perspective we had access to information on and I said that's why I had to talk to investor then it was we had more information than everyone else uh you have to talk to the investor then it was we could analyze more information than everyone else you have to talk now nowadays most investors have all of that yeah but they don't have that one person can take all that information and make it applicable for you so that is where private banking is about is we've got all this information we got access to best fund managers in the world hedge funds you name it but we can dive in and make it assessible to you so it comes down to communication again yeah so it doesn't matter how and I read this interesting post on LinkedIn this this fantastic uh uh um uh strategist Economist he comes up with amazing amazing topics um yet he was saying the most important skill for him even though he's extremely uh smart is communication he being able to get that idea across to your uh to your staff to your team to your clients uh and private banking is about communication to me I thought that's really going to be the future being communication not just private banking but whoever's focusing on the communication part massively that's going to be the industry that'll be around when the computers start taking away the other stuff I think that's what differentiates you because you know my analogy is you can have the world's greatest love song Whitney Houston could have recorded you could have it but if it's not played on the radio and you're not getting on you know iTunes you're not going to make any money no one's going to hear it exactly exactly so okay someone said it to me recently they said it used to be not it used to be what you know then it's not what you know it's who you know now it's it's who knows what you know yeah so it's it's kind of like it's you've got to be that visible thought leader for sure because that really helps you kind of uh show how you can help the people above you the more you can help the people above you the more likely opportunities are going to find you yeah so then you were doing DPM fixed income yes tell us a little bit about that fantastic opportunity to talk to I went from uh fund manager where you've got maybe uh you know a handful of very big clients you wouldn't you wouldn't get out of bed for less than half a billion dollars you know a new client kind of thing this was really big size did you meet did you start meeting the clients at DPM yeah yes straight away absolutely cuz but a lot of DPM people don't necessarily like to meet clients they they they prefer to be behind the screen but I don't sense that with you yeah oh yeah I'm I'm not a super extrovert by any means uh but I appreciate that why are they buying into a DPN product they want someone to hold their hands when it's really really bad because when it's really really good anyone can invest right great Point great point they do need to have that feeling so what we're selling is stable product with the ability to talk to the person and have them hold your hand and support you during the tough times so we had then a thousand clients uh and we needed to work in an efficient way of being able to show them that so we s of bringing in a bit of technology to en enhance that augmented advisor I like that term where it's not about automating it but it's about making our job easier so we can have all the reports all the analysis and then you can go to the clients that you need to and have that face to face time and connect uh and that was quite an interesting challenge to go from a very very Asset Management focused purely on performance and that to you need a bit of both um you might you you still have to have very good performance but you don't have to be the absolute absolute best if you can manage uh um and and keep the client uh comfortable during the periods when everyone is done yeah so it goes back to communication and engagement that's a big thing um what was the transition like from Asset Management to private banking was it very smooth um was it a big difference or not really I I think so uh asset management is about the clients are about they know what they want they want the absolute best fund manager at the cheapest price yeah and they know what the product is uh in private wealth I think Loi these are super intelligent people that have earned a lot a lot of money they made their money Orby in most cases not in the finance world so they might not know exactly what product they want they know they want this kind of income uh with this kind of risk you tell me what you need so you had to shift your whole mindset of of I'm an expert only at this to listening a lot more hearing what they want and then trying to fill in the gaps okay you probably want this you probably want this you probably want this um within the the war chest that you have so it's a little bit more d Dynamic I feel I love it now tell us about your current role because you've got a great role it's very unusual um tell us a little bit about so CIO headed the EPM head of manag Investments and quants now and quants now wow because I think they all they all come together they're all inextricably linked right yeah exactly yeah I'm really excited about it is we've got a very big brand it's been around for 100 years next year yet the part of the business that uh that I'm involved in it's got the startup energy you literally can feel on the floor it's about how do we monetize this how how do we increase penetration how do we uh get to know our clients better we are the smaller part of the business and we want to be that high touch a lot of a lot of businesses are saying we can't be high touch it's not scalable but we want to be that high touch solution to our clients and we can because of where we are at the moment um we're a decent size but we're not one of the big boys and we're moving towards that but that kind of energy you can feel I mean pros and cons right some people just don't like it some people do but that Energy's been really exciting but I I think if you're part of that P pioneer batch of people that are growing the business there's something in that right so if you look in the rearview mirror you know 5 years after that you know you've built something you've accomplish something it's very different when I place people I always look at where the company is in their life cycle and where the individual is and I think it takes a certain type of person to want to be involved in that kind of build down story I think it's it's like it's like building renovating a house for sure you know what I mean cuz a lot of people oh it's easy if we just if if we just buy this brand new apartment and but you know what your your profit is is not going to be as much and you know you can't build it in line with what your thoughts are and in a way it's like you said you use the house renovation I petrified we've done a lot of house renovations I love house renovations but I'm petrified of buying a brand new bolt because to have a total Clean Slate yeah I don't think I'll ever decide or I definitely know my wife won't ever decide on exactly what we want but to have some sort of boundaries to have an existing old home and to work on that and to modify and see how can I lock this wall how can I do that that's also really exciting with the business when you have a business with a framework where some parts have worked some parts haven't you have an outline and you have existing clients and you say okay what works what doesn't how can we maximize how can we do this that kind of I think having sometimes having some sort of limitations or having some sort of like boundaries also working in the context of a very large company I think that's that also makes it exciting it means you have to kind of think outside the box you can't just recreate the Box yeah um which is which is quite good and and your remit geographically what is it so I'll Focus uh under uh under the boss at the moment is is Asia with Dubai so we have offices in Singapore Hong Kong and Dubai but we're we're growing aggressive Dubai and private banking it's just you know there's a lot of room for growth there right for sure it's also that starts at mentality where people you know Dubai's gone up and down with dips in the property and all the rest but they've still had this kind of we will get through whatever uh and the people that are there are this kind of uh growth mindset lot of energy everyone wants to kind of move forward I think is interesting now cuz I think Saudi Arabia is making a real play so I think you know in Dubai they're going to have to run a lot faster you know to to to stay where they are and keep going um I'm interesting in your journey because very few cios uh manage uh the investment side right so you are in charge of the alts talk a little bit about that how how did you get to take over that part of the business well um you know typically what happens is there's so many different uh uh things that you get pulled in lots of different directions as a c You' got to speak a lot with clients as well which is you know very important and also fun and challenging at times uh but as an investor you've got to be also focusing on the market and you've only got so much breath so I'm fortunate that I've got a combination of a a quan team that can help do a lot of the qualitative uh information so when I sit down I know where I need to focus and I've got portfolio managers that are really good that I can trust them to manage the portfolio so that I can kind of deviate and say okay I'm now putting on my invest hat I'm going to go and sit and and just focus in on this and try understand where the problem is and normally it would happen when sun is not going 100% right all brains together now guys let's try understand this and we'll focus and we'll decide on the next trait the running uh uh when you know when the wind's blowing nicely the teams got the sales up and they run but in anything when there's crisis you should get everyone together and then uh you know collectively yeah and for us on the Els like you said this is now become a really exciting space because really realistically everyone's moved into US equities right it is just become a super overweight because they've done phenomenally well people say why don't you know you should have invested in XYZ if you actually look at it us Equity has been the best trade for the last 10 years hands down it's just been phenomenal but people have such high concentration in there that people need to diversify and where are you going to diversify if you invest in the US Europe still has this issues Emerging Markets has a lot of issues people will invest some but majority money is still going to stay in the US and if you want to get out of us Equity but earn the same sort of growth profile Alternatives has been that preference of choice for the last three to five years and we think that is going to become massively uh part of portfolios so working with private credit infrastructure head funds working with these the guys that you I used to work with u um back at I'm actually touching base with them now at some that must be so cool right amazing on the other side of the other side of the ship you know 15 years back but trying to see how they and then also understanding a little bit how an asset management or hedge funds work they have that Niche and they will be the best at that uh and then trying to say okay that's brilliant but I still got to get that message across to a billionaire that's made his money on farming that doesn't understand macro hedge fund help me get that message to him what is the driver that's going to make your performance this year in a macro year more exciting that he wants to say okay I'm happy to do that that's that's what I love about private banking because the clients can come from any Walk of Life it's so different they are so interesting so you know as as a manager as a leader what what can you share with you know young people up and coming trying to find their way you know in the industry what kind of advice could you give um you want to try help opportunities find you uh that that is the key thing uh because I love that yeah it's not about charity right you're not you're not looking for someone that's going to do everything for you that's just not going to happen there's too much competition people are too busy there's too much going on you've got to help someone else want to give you that opportunity or even better yet the opportunity he is giving you is really beneficial for him so you're solving a problem for him and you're going to be that person to do that so you I believe you you need to have Focus where you're a speciality but be able to communicate that that that specialty can be used in many different areas so that visible kind of thought leadership in your space the the guts to put yourself out there and I think that's a very key saing point because I I think um a lot of people when they're moving up it's that dichotomy so a lot of people said to me I've been given this additional responsibility but no extra pay or you know and I I just think if you want to do more underwrite it show you've got skin in the game the money will come you know your stock will rise uh but but I don't see everyone doing that and I'm I'm always interested but my mom always used to say if if if everyone was outstanding it'd be very difficult for you to be do you know what I mean exactly um okay and what what what other pears of wisdom could you share with us oh I'm still learning every day right who isn't man who isn't yeah exactly and I think that's probably also worth uh R and keep trying to learn but diverse diverse spaces um I'm finding myself more and more um harder to make time to just focus on the simple things like communicating listening and connecting so easy just to say I've connected to everyone and I sent a few messages on LinkedIn or I've had a few uh video calls but actually making that time to go for that coffee when or to go for that lunch and maybe it sounds difficult for me personally I sometimes don't mind going sitting and reading a book by myself but you have to say I'm learning more by sitting and talking to someone and listening to what's going on and understanding how the world around them is working that that FaceTime you know I've you know when I coach people or place them I always say look walk the floor right physically figuratively and not just your immediate team you know even even the parent company because you need that visibility you know you've also I think got to be a bit selective I love chatting to you you know honestly because you have a great balance of listening and also uh um adding and and also directing the conversation sometimes maybe this one is a bit more me talking but when we chat and have a dream together we will share things on XY Z and it'll pop memories from this and I'll add a little bit and actually get to have a conversation but at the same time I'm learning a lot and I'm enjoying it and if you can find people that you can have a regular conversation to do that with you're winning I think I've I've thought a little bit about this because I love talking to people and I I've kind of analyzed because when I'm coaching my guys I I think in any brand new first conversation I think 75% is not actually about work because you know most okay if you take 10 heads of DPM they're already doing the job okay it's going to vary a little bit but their personality their ability to engage their ability to sell um I think that's key one of the things I think again really differentiates you is your understanding about raising awareness of what it is that you and your team are doing and the concept that we're all having to sell you know if you're a principal of a school you know you're having to get you know students to sign up or you want a new curriculum where did that come from that I guess that hustle went all the way back to South Africa right I think so I think you I mean like you said we're all salesperson but the problem is a lot of people when they they hear that they think ah secondhand car salesman I'm selling job great you want to sell something that you're happy to buy yourself if you're not selling something you're not happy to buy then that's when you should be considering to shift or change the product that you sell do do you read anything on um sales and self-development or have you done in the past you know broad area of reading always trying to to understand but I think for from sales particularly because it's such a communication thing I learn more from listening to people that I can see that are are successful what they do yeah so um podcast and stuff is great but you chat to people that are doing it today I think that's great and you can see how you know particularly in their given their constraints the size of their team their client base the market how they can be successful it's like wow how did you find that Niche yeah and then how did you make it that someone wanted to to kind of work with you and okay that is interesting how do I apply that then it's taken that time then to to say okay how do I apply that to myself it's like you can read 10 books yeah but if you read one and apply it it's more than than all those 10 that that's the thing so I've got this great exercise in my office which is you know we've got 13 one books in the company library and uh you put any book off the shelf you flip it stop right take that extract and make it relevant to what you're doing right now because the reality is is um I I think you can apply anything so if if you've seen a bad boss just undo what he did right reverse engineer it and I think that's so important can I show with you something that I've been trying recently that's it's it's not a hack because that's just there's no real hack to it but it's a way of using technology that's quite exciting with reading books so you take a you you take a book that you know you you have access to a large amount of the text involved you had a lot of reviews or the PDF or something of the sort you plug it into your check GPT and you say summarize this for me you say give me three summaries of this okay you start reading that then you say okay um I own this book to chat gbt I want to explain this to you you are a seven-year-old I want to explain it as simple POS possible that you understand it as a seven-year-old CBT give me feedback if you don't understand it then you have to write into CBT this book is about this these are the main concerns and it actually comes back and says okay but that's not very clear can you expand on that if you can explain that concept of that book seven-year old that's Richard fan right he he talks about the the the the the famous uh physicist if you can simplify a complex that a seven-year-old can understand it you are winning andt allows you to do it without feeling like you're being silly and it actually gives you that feedback says I don't understand that that's too complex can you simplify it that that idea of trying to break it down into a simple sentence once you get it that uh you can explain it to a seven-year-old you can explain it to anyone yeah and it's quite a quite a nice do I actually think you know the best business people can take something that's very complex make it simple and then maybe make something simple very complex and sell it you know we've seen that a few times in our industry and business um so what's next for you how do you see your business growing and and you know you going to enhance the platform look I'm very fortunate that the team are very entrepreneurial when I mean the team the managers above me uh the guys are are in a fantastic trajectory we we're hitting our targets we're moving forward this is a big year for us uh um so excited to kind of be along uh for me um my role now as I said I think is great because I get to help set the The View top down with the investment committee we have a big investment committee across namura so that sets the tone but at the same time uh if we align that with the products that we like meaning I'm selling something I would buy yeah I I did feel in the past uh you know not the firms I worked at but when you looked at often what people were selling was stuff that they were told to sell it wasn't maybe stuff that they would buy themselves so much harder to sell something you wouldn't buy yourself there's always a compromise that conflict of interest doesn't help right so if you if you've got the part of the investment committee which is set in the tone and then you can also be part of the team which is putting the right products be a DPM and manage Investments to be able to put the two together it makes it a lot easier to sell cuz you have conviction in and that conviction comes across when you talk to a client you're trying to sell something you don't really like people can pick that up no do you have you spoken to uh many other people in your role in other organizations and become friends with them to to see whether or not you CU cuz I've I've actually become friends with a lot of my so-called competitors and you know I go back to my boxing days and I said to my son um you know that guy you've just fought be if he won or lost that guy potentially he could be your best friend because you share the same dreams you both getting up at 5:00 a.m. and going for a run and um so I and actually in my industry it's uh you got to respect your competition but have you done so uh I do enjoy doing that and I find actually when we we do get together the last thing we talk about is work yeah that's the that's the irony that is the cuz you know what's going on right it's talking about how do you maximize your free time how do you enjoy the time with the team with the family what are you doing what's your next uh side passion project cuz we all know you know uh you need to work hard to uh to to stay ahead of the game and working hard um but it's to see how they manage that energy cuz successful people they can bring that energy consistently you start running out of energy and I'd rather learn from guys that you can see top of their game is they top of their game they must be managing the energy well I want to learn that how but how do you do it cuz the thing about you and I we're always on but I think we're probably both introverts that's that's that's what people might not recognize right and I was I was explaining to a friend last night uh for me a great definition of an introvert is when you spend time with people even if you enjoy it it drains your energy right but if you're an extrovert it makes you buoyant and um yeah so how do you keep your energy up I think you never perfectly up I think you you go through stages but you've got to I personally I think you got to find those charging points uh along the day along the week along the month that will keep that energy up so this morning before coming here uh um my my kid isn't doing 100% well I felt a bit tight but before I came here me and him went to the coffee place around the corner we played three games of Uno I lost three to two um he's a 5-year-old he's extremely competitive uh and the goal was if he won and he's staying home today because he's not feeling well he could watch some TV this morning okay so it was a very competitive match and it was very fun but that 45 minutes early this morning was is boosed me today I'm pumped and and you'll you'll never get that time back you'll never regret that time never so you've got to find those moments on a daily basis on a weekly on a monthly on a courtly basis the courtly one for me is the tusking thing at the moment um to recharge and that then helps you through the rest so i' I I reckon you're probably the only CIO in Asia that can do a muscle up what' you Reon was uh movement exercise I think is fantastic yeah um what are you doing now to stay fit you're still look in great shape man thank you mate I still try calisthenics calisthenics is like they'll hit me for saying it but it's like older man gymnastics it's much more just upper body and less the legs and back flips and all those kind of things but I really enjoy that kind of movement do a lot more yoga now okay um how do you find yoga do you enjoy it it's it's painful oh God I'm so inflexible but again it's one of those things that you could do really early before the guys are up in the before my boys up in the morning cuz I want to spend a bit of time in the morning before work I can do yoga before do that but if I'm too tired in the morning you could also do in the evenings uh you could get an hour in it's the same for calisthenic so my my ex is now around Maxim at time with my youngster and work what about your diet because you stay Slim Right are you do you watch your diet I know you and I both enjoy a great steak in red wine but you know uh I'm I have a terrible diet but I have a fantastic wife that is a functional nutritionist so she feeds me with sometimes tastes like cardboard and green mush but it's very healthy for me so uh so um I I have a very well-managed diet so what so what are her sort of like what does she do do she have personal private clients or so she moved from interior design architecture to more uh functional medicine and it was a product that they had a family illness and I think the whole family then focuses on how you find Solutions brilliant uh the solution was you know what what you eat is really what you are that affects so many different things um so the focus went into nutrition she' been work in nutrition clinic for a long time now she's a coach that focuses on um we all know what we have to eat what we should eat why don't we right it's a simple question but it's bloody hard to answer so Works around trying to uh motivate people to eat the right things make it easy it's not just about giving the the the the recipe because it's still so hard to follow it so that kind of motivation and and having the cheap days and having the uh we have uh um we have fruity Friday which we have cakes on a Friday morning uh and you you and you you have those those treat days but you've also got to know Friday is a good day in your household and in the office isn't it a lovely day yeah um but yeah so it's finding that balance but at the same time so uh like I find fasting very good yeah just because it cuts out a meal or two for me what what sure I've just done a 48 hour fast wow and um I was well I was I was trying to do 72 hours and I think I could have done it um but Isaac put me into three big meetings the next day and I had brain fog right cuz I was on the phone to my brother and he said have you been drinking and I said no why and he goes you're slow in your speech but yeah but are you doing like cuz I don't normally eat breakfast um and and actually for a long time now i' I've only been eating one meal a day but it depends on the exercise I'm doing exactly so that throws me out depends on the exercise typically if I'm not doing a heavy exercise day you will will try eat relatively early in the night and I I will uh one have breakfast and I'll maybe have a late lunch okay and then and do you bring lunch in with you or cuz the thing is where you work there aren't that many eateries or they're quite far away and that that's why I love raffles's place cuz it's affordable right the eer where you are a bit more expensive right what do you do for lunch I don't know if it's a if it's a flaw or if it's a quality but I am I'm extremely loyal to somewh I like I go to the same coffee place every single morning uh I have had the same lunch place since I started with aine I go to the same place every day and had the same lunch I had the same hairdress in Singapore for 14 years for 12 years so at least you have a hairdresser but exactly so I to me I don't have to think about lunch when I'm having lunch at the office and we're not seeing clients or or or connecting which I should always do more of I go to the same place I have chicken uh pumpkin broccoli uh white eggs uh and a bit of faty cheese and pesto sauce and it's delicious and I have it every day and I really enjoy it so my wife thinks the most boring person ever when it comes to food but for lunch I don't have to thinks I go and enjoy dinner are always a mixture but certain things I like just being the same the same place I don't have to think about it and I and I and I can just when I get there I can relax but does she what do you know what she subscribes to CU I think nowadays there's so many fads in in everything um but I think ultimately what our mom's taught us which was a good balanced meal a bit of everything right um but what what is she saying she's saying you should is she vegetarian or she has a very broad diet like you very broad very broad yeah we've tried lots of different uh you know there's always a quick fix that you uh that you will try the fat of but it it always comes down to you need your protein you need your vegetables you need your fiber and I think the biggest thing that we found is uh and we noticed it because unfortunately her grandmother passed away okay and my my wife loves sentimental things and she was given all the sentimental Crockery the plates back in the 50s with this big we just gone to bigger plates and bigger portions I think we just eat so much more yeah is that funny it is weird right and if you actually reduce the amount you don't have to eat that much that people say you should use a small Fork and Spoon smaller plate smaller so we started doing that eat the same food we have some treats and stuff but the P have you have you ever measured your food cuz I did during covid cuz I I wanted to get back into shape and I I got down to 70 kg which was my weight when I was 21 22 um I couldn't I couldn't maintain it but what was really weird was I got to 70 and I thought I I'll start eating a little bit more but what happened was I kept losing weight because I realized my my metabolism it was like it had momentum yeah so it it was but I didn't feel as strong and it wasn't it wasn't sustainable so maybe you need a little bit more than that than then when you were 20s right but but still I I do feel like the fasting to me is a way of ensuring that I eat less um of good stuff I want to eat good but I want the portions of good to be cuz I was find I was going through a stage where I was eating all healthy stuff but healthy snacks and healthy this and big portions of uh of fruits and vegetables but I was eating so many calories and good calories is still a calorie and I wasn't able to maintain or I was working harder so smaller bits I think is you know where I have been consistent is in adult grape juice adult grape juice red wine you got me so when when I lived in the US and I was working Asian hours I would it was brilliant cuz I would put the kids to sleep and I'd be on the phone and they were younger at the time so I'd be on the phone about 8 half eight with my team here and um I I I wouldn't say i' became an alcoholic but I would open a Bott of wine and I would work normally to about 2: 2:30 in the morning and I would be speaking to people and I said you're in great form I said yeah you know how you wide awake and I was I was chugging a little bit but it was it was brilliant U so now I still you go to you go to Europe and you're in a very big business and you go for a business lunch you'll have one glass of white wine with the starts one glass of red wine not massive glasses uh and there's nothing more than that and it's just relaxed and everyone feels chilled it's smaller it's there's definitely space in in life to enjoy it and that and a little bit of alcohol for some people is an enjoyment yeah if you overdo it then you know then you problem well the the one thing is is like my wife works from home still a lot um and I I can't do it because I I'd end up having a siesta I couldn't walk past my bedroom without well I'll just lie down for 5 or 10 minutes um but the one thing is during covid I realized like you either become a chunk or a hunk and and I thought you became a hunk you trained a hell of a HK I I really went for it I really went for it and um I recap cuz I just thought I'm getting two hours of driving back because I'd do the school run and I I'd be collecting all the kids and uh I just thought I'm getting two hours of my life back but but if you know mind me saying the little bit I know about it is you also were able to bring it in you have a young son that's energetic that is sporty that is in the same sort of passion so you tying your passion with his passion you're able to share your insights with him and you're getting massive feedback and it's time that you will never forget so what kind of motivation is that and that's if you can align a few things together wow you know what was interesting cuz uh I I post quite a lot of things on my social media about me exercising and my my wife hates it right but but actually it's it's to help other people and uh there's a journey CU i' I found if I if I see you doing something like when you're doing a muscle I wow G's doing this let let me give that a try right and um it's flipping hard and there's so much technique involved right and what one of the things I find really interesting is um talking about kids my journey with my son so my Kaden's almost 61 now right and um I'm 5 six and a half on a good day in socks and um so two or three Fridays ago uh I had lunch uh with Isaac and I went I went went for a coffee and I dropped a bottle of champagne off that we just placed this guy and then he texted me said he was going to boxing which is very in my office so I turn up about 5:00 and he's done an hour and a half session so he's a bit tired and um I said you know when I'm winding him up now I said when I was 17 I think you would have lasted a couple of minutes only and he goes reckon Dad I said you know do you want to go a couple of rounds and he said very seriously but nicely I don't want to hurt you Dad so I said do you reckon you W and he goes I know so I and I didn't warm up so we we start sparring excuses already well I I do that and we step I step forward all I know I got clovered five times in I think in two to three seconds tops and I I go what what's just happened and um I said it was going to be like that then he goes with I thought you wanted to so I kind of got him into the corner held on to him technique of SK yeah took a few swings missed caught him with air um we we finished the round and I was messed up now I've got I've got an ego like most men I went to sit down I said Son I've got to get back to the office well done fair play to mate I got back to the car I was smashed out and I I called my col I said can you please bring down some cold water I drove home that that Journey at that time probably will take 25 30 minutes it took 51 minutes I drove very slowly I was W for 4 hours and then this is the scary thing cuz I'm still I thought I was relatively fit but is it's I I'm not fighting forit my traps and my neck was sore for 3 Days use the muscles you forgot you had you know and he kicked my ass and I texted him I said and he was out recorder you'll never hear it cuz you're not going to tell it him that I did I did I told him I said and I was so proud of him right and it's uh it's a kind of passing of the torch but you know the thing about children as you as you know is just it's a journey right and you know I think that's interesting and I'm going to learn from you and I'm going to pick your brain many especially when we've trying that adult grape juice yeah um I really think it's exciting because at some point like you said I remember my dad saying he remembers running on the beach and he used to always uh run wait till I caught up and then always win he would never let me win until I started beating him how how old were you when you started beating him I would say 12 he would say 18 but you somewhere in between uh um but the he remembers clearly that moment I like oh yeah and but you want to keep them driven I'm I never well I don't ever I want to keep him motivated so he can win sometimes but he honestly w in Uno today and he when we play football and stuff it's a competition you want to keep the drive I think so and you want to make sure that they earn it and the last thing is that the kids feel like you've given them the game I feel especially for boys um but it's got to be a weird feeling when sherbet I'm now second place in the house it's it's a it's you know when it comes to running or whatever yeah well he still can't none of them can do me in a Sprint yet to yeah I was a runner but it's but you know what's I I I can't explain this I was just thinking about this cuz my dad was really hard on me right and there weren't many compliments and he loved me and stuff um so you it would it would be you can't do this you can't do that and the thing is secretly I knew he believed in me but I've always had that mentality I don't give a I'm going to go for it but without kids I didn't want that kind of relationship with him and it was always like you can do this keep going but now he's older it's a little bit of needling right because we both know he can kick my ass right that's fine we we know that um but I admire him so much so he he lost a boxing match um and he came third in Singapore two years ago and he was the youngest and he fought this guy who's 6'3 great guy and uh he was really sad and he had a little bit of a cry and he put so much into it I said mate you came third in Singapore on your first outing outstanding yeah and and and actually I think it was an early stoppage but what he he blew me away this guy's family were all there and they probably didn't recognize Kaden because he was wearing his headgear so so when he took it off and he went to congratulate all of them and he said it it was an honor to fight your son and um I said I'm so proud of you but then afterwards uh he saw the fell and he said congrats mate that was a great fight um but I want that rematch and I love that I love that right because and the other thing that I've learn about martial arts and boxing is um there's a level of respect so all of his teammates um they'll always say sir when they meet me and I just I just love that and I think the thing about that that part of sportsmanship is huge right that's when we started the conversation about sports right and I think that's the amazing thing about sports is you there's very few Sports when you leave the pitch and you don't want to shake the other players hands even if you've lost you've had a great experience that's been close or you knew you were just outmatched but you appreciate I'm going to work harder for this because I love this game and I no one loves losing right very few people love losing uh so you want to get better and that's excitement that energy brings so Sports it teaches you so many things that can be applied in a world today where communication and driving getting past the solution is probably more important than what you know or which book you read or which university you got this because that stuff has becoming commoditized with with information it has I just to wrap I want to tell you this quick story so I'm a big movie fan and I don't know if you love Clint Eastwood but I love Clint Eastwood and there's a movie I think it's called any which way you can or any which way you can lose and there's Clyde who's an arang who's the other main character in the in the movie and um Clint Eastwood's a prized fighter and he's about to fight a guy from New York who's killed a few people uh in in the story but there's there's no internet back then so he doesn't know what the fell looks like so this guy turns up in the town just to assess Clint Eastwood and Clint's gone for his morning run and they go for a run together and um this guy's a big guy and uh about four or five miles and he goes you know how far do you run and he goes I'll do about 10 miles around trip every day and you could see on the guy's faces thinking um so they they keep running and they're running a across this it's like a a sand mine and this big fellow slips almost dies Clint is pulls him back up and then he said what do you do for a living again he said well you know I work behind a desk he said you work behind or you lift a desk and um Clint still doesn't know who he is so that night invites him out for a drink and they go to a bar and um someone is and this is why I'm by the way I'm going to the US um this summer with my girls um my two daughters and I'm going to Jackson Hole y because of this movie in part so they're in the bar and someone says something to about Clint Eastwood's girlfriend who's a singer and this fellow says that's not very nice and someone punches him so then Clint Eastwood starts knocking people out and Clint still doesn't know who this fell is and then someone pulls a knife on Clint and goes to stab him this guy grabs him beats up a bunch of guys and Clint is was looking at him do his handywork and then he goes and he worked out who he was and then Clintwood says to him this he said um you know did you get what he wanted to see so he's worked out he is he goes yeah you're fast and you like pain but I've come across a lot of guys like you and you won't last and um you got to be durable and he said is that right and then and then this fell says we don't need to do this for brownie points and Clinton said I'm not doing it for brownie points and um so this is the bit that I liked um he went to go and pay and Clint Ewood said your money is no good here and um the last thing you said to him he goes it was a pleasure watching you work right cuz competitors but respect yeah and I've I've always thought that right so in one of my last well my penultimate last fight uh I like the guy I respected him um and I wrote him a letter and I sealed the envelope and I put it in his locker and um I I just said look reading this I I've just knocked you out but I really admire and respect you and I'll come see you in hospital and I'll come and buy you a beer did you of course I did of course I did great place thank no but it was good but listen I really appreciate your time today is there anything else you wanted to cover or chitchat about that was great man it's it's been so great to see your career just rise and um I'm looking forward to that drink later cheers good man cheers mate [Applause] [Music]

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