#27 with Elton Apps: A Career in Recruitment, HR & Financial Planning

hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with a very dear friend of mine Mr Elton apps he used to work for my late father-in-law Brian Davenport and was my very first hire NCIS International search back in 2005 we talk about his career Journey going from the world of recruitment to in-house strategic recruitment to becoming the head of HR I'll let him share the rest of his journey I hope you enjoy the chat as much as I did Cheers Mr RS Mr Quinn how are you I'm well thank you this has been what 18 years in the making yeah when did we first meet 2005 that's the first time we actually met that's the first time we met I had seen you slightly earlier okay but you were dressed in the exact same clothes really yeah oh I wasn't in a wife beater that's what you were in where did we meet we met at the Cricket Club that's my memory yeah Cricket Club I believe it was around Christmas time okay there later in the year so well listen before we get started that I want to go back to then for the the few people that don't know you please can you be kind enough just to introduce yourself and uh you know who you are a little bit about you sure um well my name's Elton abs um the app's surname is kind of unusual I'm 116th Irish originally born in Malta grew up in Singapore um for my sins I've been in the financial industry pretty much for the last 18 years uh first as a Head Hunter and then later on moving in-house uh you know in in-house teams uh for recruitment um eventually hitting up some of those teams heading up HR departments and now I've come full circle I run my own search firm I am a licensed Financial Consultant um so I think it's been really 18 years about just you know working with people helping people yeah right um well listen you you've had an amazing career Journey so let let's rewind so we first met Cricket Club because my wife's dad was your boss yeah that's right right and but I'd heard a lot about you because he always talked about you glowingly and and obviously we're EUR Asian so said look this guy was he'd be your Eurasian brother you'd get along very well with him so I'd heard a lot about you and then we met that day and we ended up having a good old Nat and then I didn't see again for quite some time I don't think well then it it was probably I think maybe a year when Brian died yeah probably about a year later yeah um when we then caught up um what was your memory of our first meeting I I thought to myself be honest or maybe don't be honest I thought to myself you know this was a this was a guy that I could relate to on one hand but was from a completely different world on the other hand right there was so much that was familiar about you because we're close in age um you know we both came from Europe um um but then there was also so much that was really really different right and and I found that quite interesting um I I wasn't sure if we would become friends it was one of those situations where you know you my boss is there I'm talking you know and I'm trying to understand the Dynamics between everything and you seemed like a fun enough guy but I wasn't exactly sure yeah yeah and listen I was still you know just dating Tara so I was still having to you know trade carefully with Uncle Brian so you know not thinking about that and um and then what a lot of people don't know about you is that you actually spent part of your childhood growing up in Indonesia yes that's right um so I came from a family that moved wherever the oil rigs moved so you were born in Malta right I was born in Malta um I spent maybe 3 to six months as a baby there um and then after that collectively between the age of 0 to 16 I had only spent maybe two years in Malta wow yeah and uh we were traveling we were you know I I lived in Jakarta for 3 years I lived in Bal papan for a year what was that like you know the the funny thing is it's the strangest things you you kind of remember how old were you like eight yeah I was I was probably from the age of 6 to n okay um there and it's expat schools right you know now I realize okay that house was massive right and I realized okay my my father was on expat terms that you don't get anymore yeah we had a driver but now I also realized that the driver was there for my safety yeah cuz it was actually back in the days when it wasn't you couldn't take the bus to school yeah right there's no way you could take the bus to school because one of those days you're not going to make it back right um scary and uh and and and when we moved to Bal papan which was after Jakarta there are two things I remember one there was only only one road from the airport all the way to the compound which we lived in m and to the day I turned on the faucet in the bathroom very first night there it came out as brown sludge really right you you were body any memories clear you remember that's what I remember right those are the two things obviously chocolate milk for for for dinner later that night that was for the bath I I you know I I I was gonna run a bath for myself and I just looked at it horrified and it continued for a good you know I would say a good full minute wow yeah and then but what did your dad do at the time in only so he worked in on an oil rig he was what they would call a materials man right so he was basically in charge of all the parts and you know bits and Bobs that they have on the rig making sure everything's functioning well and and so forth yeah um have you ever been back since what's to Jakarta no bipan the Balan no no uh I bet I bet you wouldn't even recognize the place now for sure for sure no I mean that was a lifetime ago yeah and then you how old when you came to Singapore I came to Singapore first time I came to Singapore I was 10 okay shortly after Jakarta um and uh and and I've pretty much been here ever since uh the families traveled um I I changed schools a few times because even though I was here oh I didn't realize that okay at certain periods of time the family still moved like we moved from east of Singapore to west of Singapore and then my family actually moved from west of Singapore overseas and left me here so you in boarding school at s Pats right yes so I was in St Patrick's boarding school um very very interesting uh how long were you in the I was there for two years okay though looking back I wish I was there longer right really yeah uh because I didn't I didn't think you liked it that much you know the funny thing is the first 3 months I was miserable right I I was a daddy's boy I I I you know I missed my family I you know I didn't like the rules lights out at 10:00 stuff like that of course and then I made friends and then I understood the system and how to get around the rules and then it was lovely no problems no problems and and I you know and and when I had to move out of boarding school because my parents had managed to move back to Singapore how old were you there um that was secondary 3 so I was 15 okay um I actually was quite upset about it in a way yeah um you know in in hindsight if I talk about Secondary School a large part of it was those first two years in the boarding school that's when all the fun and the Mischief came about I'll bet I bet what's interesting is um when you look at your journey one of the things that you taught me and I I've never learned to do it you can tell typically what school Somebody went to by the way they talk and their mannerisms yeah yes which is very unusual like you you and you clock it you know all the time yes I mean it's it's it's funny and I kind of treat it like a game right so when you meet someone based on a few of the things they say based on where they live uh based on you know the memories they recollect you can usually tell right this this person a SGI boy ACS boy RI is the girl from Katon Convent or Chi J Topo they're subtly different yeah right amazing um but I can get it right nine out of 10 times yeah I'm I I won't even begin to guess so what happened after that so you you finished at St Pats finished in St Pats went to Catholic Junior College okay which was again a sort of east west move because St Pat is on the East all my friends went to tanese junior college tamasic junior college places like that and and um my parents had moved back and we had moved back into our house that we had at Holland Village m so moved to Catholic Junior College knew maybe like three people from secondary school had to restart M and uh in then after Junior College most of my friends went to the Army I was still on a student pass yeah so I went straight into University and I had half the network that I that other people had right because a lot my friends had gone so I had to make new friends and that was another restart so you know my life's kind of been about adapting restart starting adapting restarting can't can't have been easy though right cuz you you know you friends with people they all go off you're not part of that Journey it's it's very difficult right and you kind of wonder what if right like my best friend in secondary school we did everything together played football together we were on a tennis team together I've not physically met him in 10 years really right um still in touch with we're still in touch nothing wrong but you just grow apart cuz he went to NS he had his NS story he had his friends there he went to tomasic Junior College you know I went to a different College I had to make new friends my new friends were from a different crowd yeah you know and and you just end up uh growing apart and how did you choose and decide to do political science at Uni um was it by Design or well I did political science and psychology okay s right and what had happened was I was they didn't teach you much cuz you came to work with me so you know I was initially wanting to and do law all right yeah but I wanted to do law overseas because my abiding memory at the time was that law in Singapore having done a couple holiday jobs in law firms wasn't really for me you wanted to go to London right yeah and uh and I think about three months before I was meant to head out you know I have a conversation with my father and he says look these things are happening um you know we need to make a wise decision and that wise decision would be to keep you in Singapore so truth be told I then picked the faculty that had the most girls is that how that's that was the decision listen I love that decision- making process by the way I I was like well if I have to stay here I'm going to have fun staying here and I picked the faculty that are most most ladies yeah and then I wanted to pick subjects which I could afford to not really study for cuz what's the point about having a great environment and surrounding and and not having the time to have fun in that environment and surrounding very true very true right so um so I still remember my first two semesters I had nine hours a week and it was Tuesday to Thursday yeah Friday to Monday it was party time right um and and you know and it's interesting because there there's you know politics and and psychology plays a lot into even something as simple as that right who are the popular kids in class yeah who who should you get the notes from should you copy from that kind of thing you know and then when you finish eting what happened cuz I I I don't recall how did you make the transition what was your first job so I finished uni and my you know I came out of University and I was like well I didn't get the degree that I wanted to get right I'd watched a lot of TV shows I wanted to be a hot shot lawyer I didn't get that degree and and so I didn't really know what I wanted to do with myself and and you know and four years of studying 9 hours a week didn't ingrain in me a passion for anything thing in particular so my dad said well you know you're a man now come and work with me if you can't decide what you want to do work with me until you do and so I went into the oil and gas business um as a project manager that was my first job uh and I very quickly realized that I still did not know what I wanted to do yeah but you find what I did not want to do but listen that's just as important but how was it working with your dad cuz that that's never easy typically right well it it's very unusual right because you still get to do things like sleep in the car on the way to work yeah cuz he's driving you into work so you're still a kid in a way yeah um but on the other hand you know he's got to treat you the same as everyone else you've got to pull your weight um so what he had done was he had put me in a different department right um which worked out fine you know um but as I said very quickly within about 2 years I realized that really wasn't for me but you did it for two years yeah I did for two years like yeah I never read your CV obviously back in the day right I mean i' i' I've never really quit anything yeah right um so after that I I mean I still hadn't really quit uh but I had decided that wasn't for me and I started looking around you know and and the funniest thing happened because my next job is where we ended up connecting yeah right and my next job there I I had met with your your father-in-law and I had met him on the pretext of interviewing for marketing role for a company that he did not work for or own really and Ivon connected you guys yeah so so Ivon said you know I've got you an interview it's for how did she Von by the way is your best friend yeah how did she know Brian Uncle Brian oh I I'm not sure I would have to go and check isn't that weird I don't know either I can't remember for a certain yeah um so you went for this gig for this marketing so I went for this marketing role and I was expecting to meet a Chinese gentleman and instead I met a larger than life Eurasian guy yeah who basically said well um yeah I know you were going to meet Mr wrong but he it's not available you know um talk to me instead what do you do really right I didn't know that and I said okay this is who I am this what I do and he went his eyes lit up wait you're Eurasian you're from St Patrick's yeah I'm from St Patrick's okay you're coming to work for me and was he the president of the Eurasian Association at the time yes he was okay so he said you're coming to work for me yeah we'll put your project management skills to work in my shipping company yeah and you'll write my speeches and you will follow me around for all my engagements and just see what you pick up along the way and did he say like what percentage split was going to be the commercial side of things the shipping business versus the euras it was meant to be 50/50 but in reality the or Association in reality I think in in reality I still don't know anything about shipping let's be honest you were sending smss to all his girlfriends probably I had done that as well I had done that as well because you know Brian was larger than life and he would look at stuff and he'd go all right all right um we need to prepare for this meeting can you respond to her just tell her yes no I'm busy so I I did everything from from doing that to um you know the scoping out what a stage would look like as if he was going to go to a speech um just reading all his emails and sort of telling him okay you've got 58 emails in the last hour yeah these are the 15 that you need to pay attention to and we'll ignore the rest I'm just curious because you've worked for some bigger than Life personalities but he's got to be right up there I mean what was he like to work with you because on a on a personal social level I've I've not really met many people like that at all he was one of one his personality was bigger than he was and he was a big man the funny thing is he was the same person yeah yeah right in my opinion he was the same person maybe I was a little bit privileged yeah because he never really treated me like an employee yeah he always treated me like someone he was training yeah you know yeah um so I got to see all sorts of things right I I I I was brought to his house very early on I got to see how he reacted to things behind the scenes right and and he kind of just didn't really set those boundaries right uh he was very good in that he never Disturbed me on weekends and I you know I wasn't on call 16 hours a day or anything yeah but you know the 12 hours a day for the five days a week it it was really No Holds Barred right yeah whatever he needed done he'd either get me to do get me to vet or you know get my opinion on it right um and but he would ask your opinion right yeah and and I think that was part of his way of training right yeah to to to help me form a decision on something right and and you know he'd be on a conference call on on you know back then they didn't really have a lot of conference calls it was speaker phone right yeah he'd be on speaker phone and then he' muted and he'd like this guy's talking nonsense what do you think all right and and then I would have to give him my two cents on it and um yeah and uh you know you know what's funny so when I first started dating Tara um he called me out one Friday evening and he said Bo where are you I said I'm just having some drinks with the uh with the guys and he said Tara was away in Hong Kong with her friends or on business or something he said um you want to go out for some drinks later I said yeah sure so next thing it wasn't to a bar he took me you'll know this he took me to maybe three or four of his friend's house and he was like showing me off and introducing me to everyone and which was lovely and then we got to the end of the evening and I was very drunk he had a driver and um we on the way back and he said why don't we pick up a bag and you spend the weekend with me I'll cook you breakfast in the morning which is quite it's such an unusual kind of invite right yeah absolutely and he said to me as we were walking in the front door he put his arm over my shoulder he said you know what Paul you are the son I never have but I always wanted and I just thought I was blown away by that cuz it was it was so unique was so different and I've learned a lot so now when it comes to my my daughter's future boyfriends I'm going to try and remember that as opposed to greeting him at the front door with a chainsaw and a machete do you know what I mean as much as you would be tempted yeah I might be tempted my son he's probably there to do that so let's roll on let me tell you what my memory was so Brian passed away everything changed and you I remember when I first met you I came into the office I was wearing a suit Tara was still very young and you were kind enough you basically resigned cuz you said look there's no job me anymore right and you you knew we were going to go through a hard time and uh and that was it and I felt I felt really bad because he spoke so highly of you of all the people that he worked with him you were the one and then I remember you leaving the office and I just felt bad I just thought you know this poor guy's lost his job just like that overnight right what was your memory similar it was similar it was similar I'd love to say that was the first time I did a pull away on you yeah but um no it was similar I you know it was it was very shocking to to have you know a character like that just pass away so suddenly yeah um and then to realize you know now I realize the amount of concentration risk in that business yeah around him without him there was there wasn't a business yeah and he had at that time you know looking back he had been trying to diversify that risk by actually training me you know so that I could hopefully take on some of it that I think that was his plan that was his plan um so it was it was very disheartening and I was you know kind of thrown for a loop because I had gone from a young man who had no idea what he wanted to do right as as a career to someone who was starting to feel like okay maybe I'll get involved in all of this stuff yeah and then it was gone again well you think about it the oil and gas and shipping business were quite closely aligned and you could have easily ended up running that shipping business I think I think so I think if it had been a little bit more documented and structured if there was something to take over yeah right but he had kept everything in his head everything you know so every inv nothing yeah every invoice every piece of business was was stored there and um without him around nobody knew what to do next so fast forward you then got a gig with the Eurasian Association did you is that what happened or with your dad so no so fast forward you're right I had a really short uh stint at the Eurasian Association um you know I new president was it there was a new president who had been a very close business associate of Brian's and uh so they they said hey why don't you come on board we need a uh sort of like an assistant general manager they they initially they they had said we need a general manager then they had realized well okay he's still a kid he's not even 30 let's let's try him out for a bit so I went there and I you know did a bunch of office administration and I did a you know some put in some policies did some projects started to understand it that was about three months I think yeah um yeah and then then I got a call got a call let me let me let me tell you so what led to that was I remember exactly where I was I had quit my job wanted to go and set up I was now running Brian's business with Cara just had a my recruitment company and I was being sued um but I had one a piece of work as you know and I thought I need someone to help me do part of it and I just immediately thought of you and I was a Raffles place and I called Tara we weren't married yet and I just said I think I'm going to hire Elton if if he comes to work with me would you mind he has to say yes yet and she goes have you spok to him I said no but he'll come and work with me I think he'll be okay with that I didn't know what you were doing I just I felt very strongly about it and um she didn't want me to hire you she she just felt that you you were part of the family I said no you know it's if anything that's the reason why we should work together and um and we had literally only spoken really that time at the Cricket Club for maybe an hour over a few drinks and I think 10 minutes in the office and then at Brian's funeral so it's not like we'd gone out and had dinner together yeah anything right and um so I called you so what's your memory of that yeah I I I don't remember where was when I received the call um but I do remember the call and I think you know it it's not like I had options lined up right and it was very clear to me very quickly that you know a gig like at the EUR Asian Association was not something that was going to be exciting enough for me right um you know all respect to them I I I think a lot of people could work there for many many years but for me I wanted something different so when you called me I remember it wasn't a particularly long call I agreed quite quickly to meet with you um and it's good thing I did as well because while the call was short the meetings to discuss joining you were extremely long and extremely intense was that from me or from Kush a little bit of both was it a little bit of both right um first ever employee in the company right we wanted to get it right yeah yeah yeah yeah so so that was and and it was a real Whirlwind right after that you know from the point of that call yeah I would say the next 12 months is like one of those TV montages is just the Real's just spinning faster than yeah um than a person could normally perceive yeah I remember calling you when uh we got married I wanted you to come to the wedding in barley you couldn't come and I remember calling you and I was extremely drunk it was like 7:00 in the morning so I was drunk for the wedding night and I said has that check come through in the post and I think you said Paul it's it's Sunday I can't remember what day was the weekend yeah and I was stressing out and I'm stressing out because people like Jason sandre and novid were buying rounds of Shooters and I didn't realize that the Villa was providing them cuz I bought all the bottles they set up their own Bary at the estana I worked out was $350 plus plus plus US Dollars back then and they for example brought me a round of six shots and they were all doing six shots and I was doing the mass thinking flipping H we need to put a stop to this and cauterize it um going from doing what you did into Recruitment and sales you probably never thought you didn't need you didn't even think about recruitment ever before I would imagine right I didn't know it existed as an industry yeah right uh firstly so there's no way I could have thought about it um and I didn't understand a lot of the basic concepts that I understand now right like to me it was like if you want a job ask around send your resume out I did not realize that there were skill sets and people who were you know valuable enough to attract into a company that you would go out there and effectively get a you know how I thought of it was get a private investigator yeah to go into the world and find the person with this skill set yeah you know um so so that was all entirely new to me it was very fascinating and but it was also really hard work great you tell the tell the audience a little bit about about having me working with you so intensely well I mean and no I mean and the intensity was at a different level right yeah um you know you had started covering the private banking desk yeah Kush covered technology I knew nothing about either desks back in that period of time yeah and it was a small company and we had three seats lined up like this next to one another and I was sat in the Middle where you I can't remember I was sat in the middle number one and number two I had you know we had these headsets that had a adapter so you could listen in yeah right elonics it C they cost me a fortune by the way but and you must have hated those headsets and my first thousand sales calls in an area I did not know anything about were all right did you memorize the script okay go you're going to say the following things to someone who earns 25 times more than than you is 20 years older than you but you're going to convince them to come in to meet you to talk about their career and I just found that really really bizarre yeah when you'd be on the other line and I'd be going through it and you'd be you know you'd be making faces you'd be S you'd be you know covering them out you could press mute and I would tell you what to say and exactly and you'd be like all right say this all right that's really really good no no no don't take no for an answer ask him again right and um you and it was really quite stressful because I've you know I've always been an introvert yeah right if if I'm if I'm given the choice between you know sitting in my room on the computer or reading a book over going to meet a dozen people yeah the that the Natural Instinct would always be to sit in my room me too right it it is the meeting a dozen people that I do not know was back at that time a terrifying Prospect yeah and then I ended up having to call 50 of these people day in and day out so give the numbers right because you still hold the the the company records for quite a few of the kpis but I would say to you you need to get 10 Bankers you need to arrange 10 candidate interviews between me and private Bankers each day every day and um you got nine you you were consistently hitting big numbers but it was like I think I consistently managed to get about you know 4 to six that was very very consistent yeah with you know looking back you know that's that's 20 to 25 Bankers yeah were taking an hour out of their day yeah um and you know and if you use very rudimentary math and said well an hour of their day is worth $1,000 yeah I was pulling you know $20,000 worth of meetings in yeah all right um and I hit nine I never hit 10 um and and the funny thing about it was part of the reason why I never hit 10 now looking back at it was I always wanted whoever I brought in to actually be decent right you were focus on quality it couldn't be bring in 10 and have four of them be really really bad at what they do I wanted it to be you know nine people because I was young right approval actually meant something to me right I you know I wanted yourself and Kush to turn around and say hey that's a really good candidate we can do something with this right um so yeah so so I think the record is nine um you know but you know we're looking at 40 to 50 calls a day and you know if you're bringing in nine and you're calling 40 people that means you've got 31 who have told you no yeah and some of them were not very nice y right some of them were not very nice they held high positions MDS heads of branches and they would you know I would go in in my mind completely professional very polite right and they would literally tell me to jump off a cliff right yeah you'd get you know phrases like do you know who I am uh no I'm not interested never call me again right yeah and just slam down the phone yeah terrible right and you know look good luck to them but one thing I've learned uh you know over my time in sales and and in the business is you just never know you never know you just never know who's on the other side of that phone y and one of the very difficult meetings and I remember this now one of the very difficult meetings was someone I had pulled in and if I'm not wrong it was 2006 very very early on I had pulled them in to the office that we had a change alley yeah all right and they were easy enough to get on the phone to but when they had arrived they were not very pleasant at all they were very very difficult individual right to deal with and you know they toss the name card across the table every question people are terrible AR they every question I asked was a monotonous yes no you know he was lit so what you got from me yeah pretty much yeah and the funny thing about it is fast forward from 2006 to 2016 MH I had at by that time nego in 2016 I ended up hiring him for the organization I worked for I remember who he is now yeah arranging his retirement package yeah cuz he was pushing in on 60 yeah I remember you looked after him I looked after him he didn't remember that first meeting did you remind him you I reminded him I hope you took you out for dinner at the very least right and fast forward again another eight years in 2024 we're still in touch we're still friends yeah right absolutely so you just never know so I think you know moral behind that is just always try to be nice to people can't have been easy working for someone like me because I didn't tolerate any from anyone well that's the thing right you you know what what you taught me very well is you can still be nice to someone and not tolerate their nonsense yeah right um and you know it's not a skill that I've Mastered by any means and it's not something that I've had the confidence to apply till perhaps the last 10 years or so right and the funny thing is doing things that way will very quickly show you who you want to talk to again and again and again and who you're willing to write off interesting you know because some of the best relationships are born out of Confrontation yeah very true right very true some of the best relationships are born out of people realizing that hold on I treated you poorly you treated me well yeah let me come back and revisit this that's a very good right very good point you know and and for other people they they'll they'll hold it against you right yeah you know uh they will rude to you you stand your ground they don't like that yeah they don't like that because either you called them out for being rude or you refuse to let them bully you yeah and then they go by the wayside and that's fine right good riddance yeah one of the things I always admired about you and um I don't know actually before I tell you that people that you met laterally since you gone in house do they do you think they perceive you as an introvert cuz I'm guessing they may not in house or outside well both both so in your in your corporate job when you wear in house and then your friend your friends know what you like but right I think you know I think um senior people who ran in different circles yeah realized I was an introvert mostly because I was not in their circles all right but anyone who worked closely with me would have been shocked that I was an introvert yeah because you know the the one thing a lot of people who have worked with me has has always uh told me was oh yeah we need an impromptu speaker talk to 200 professionals uh off the cuff or right get Elon to do it he'll be fine yeah we need someone to present to a room full of people who are more senior than him yeah get Elton to do it he'll be fine yeah right and and it was sort of this Dynamic that made people think he's got to be an extrovert right yeah he's not shy he's not nervous I just hid it well yeah right the reality is you know I'm as introverted as they come well one of the things I really admired about you was you just said to me look Paul I'm not a salesperson to begin with because I'm an introvert and I remember having this conversation many times when when we first started working together and I always said to you look in fact the majority of the people that you speak to when you get that initial conversation once you've established that credibility because you're so genuine and honest you will 100% connect with them and in particular they're introverts and you were so sweet you you know if you were being put under a lot of pressure you actually used to turn red and and after a while you just learned to handle it better and better but you never gave up you hung in there in and our job is an notoriously difficult job and I admire it's it's like this you know I was a boxer I admire anyone that has the the confidence and courage to get through the the Roes and someone asked me today they said well how are you still in all these years later and I said maybe is because of my background in martial arts and boxing I've got thick skin do you know what I mean yeah so let's talk a little bit about some of the lessons you learn because I'm just curious on the sales side because I was asked by my guys today in preparation for today's chat you know what are some of the things that Elton did well and I said lots of things so first and foremost I I I I put myself in this category um but you're the best Note Taker right very comprehensive notes detailed notes cuz I found a lot of people when they take notes they write what they know but they never write what they don't know or questions your memory was you could go back and tell me when something was written to you would remember the compensation you remembered everything and then do you remember when there was a time where I started doing some psychometric test in turn there for new hires yeah and you did a bunch of tests Beyond pyary test and you waste them you aced all of them but what's your memory about the the sales training and how that helped you in the next chapter or two of your career well I I think what happened was you know for for training for me it was always about trying to train up my weaknesses right I was a little bit reluctant to pick up the call uh the phone to call people I was a little bit reluctant to put myself out there for rejections right um but what I knew I was decent at was you know know spotting information information that would be important and connecting with people if I was given the chance right it's it you know it's always a case of if you'll talk to me for five minutes you'll probably talk to me for two hours you know that's a very good point and so I think I the first thing I learned was three NOS is a no right um so people will tell you know many many times you go back you try again and try again might be a bad day they might be busy whatever it is yeah and you'll be very surprised that you get two Nos and the third time around they go all right fine you're persistent I'll meet you I've literally had managing directors managing a 100 people yeah give up and go you're persistent I'll meet you yeah right and I think part of it is they work in organizations where nobody dares to do that yeah right they got to respect it right right so so that that was one of the first things I learned um by the way by the way you know like if someone has ever said that to me I said don't bloody meet me because I'm persistent meet me because I'm good and I add value you know but anyway that's just me well I mean look that you know I I just never was that person yeah right yeah and uh that's why I think we always collaborated so well because we're chalk and cheese in many ways we have a lot of similar values but yeah and and 20 years in look the memory is gone now right I I can remember meetings I've had 15 years ago yeah but I can't remember people I've met 15 days ago right and I don't know how it's hardwired and how it works funny right but that has now made the note taking that much more important and what I always told myself when I was taking notes was you know what are they saying what do I want to say next yes right and you know what are they not saying that I should be curious about yeah right and when I and every time I asked myself those three things I would end up you know sort of almost creating an interview form based on the notes and then redeveloping it version 2.0 version three version four because I was sort of refining the art of you know getting that information parsing that information you know and I would highlight little things that someone said that nobody else has said Y and then I would then find a way to reincorporate that into my sales page yeah right because yeah I still maintain I'm not a natural sales person yeah right um but yet despite that you know if you speak to you know a dozen Head Hunters there's a very very strong chance that I would get through to the individual because I just said something that does not come out of the mouth of a head hunter yeah right yeah and they you know they're impressed because they never heard it before yeah and they haven't quite pieced together yet that it actually came out of someone who's got a lot more experience than me who said something enlightening yeah and I actually bothered to co-opt it right you build it in but also your attention to detail without mentioning names but we placed a ridiculously big Banker who did $5 million in day one but I remember during the qualification the head of HR at the time um said look this guy is doing $10 million Revenue a year and you went back and said no I think that's and we looked and we talked and said you know that's year to date is doing like 24 $25 million a year you know yeah and and just by that one qualification you not like what's your Revenue you know when is it is it year to date how is it work um what are some of the other key things that you learned uh in terms of sales because I'm I'm curious because I think in any job that you do sales is part of what you have to do it doesn't matter if you're a school teacher and you're selling ideas to the principal uh but what other takeaways did you get from from the recruitment Business from The recruitment business specifically um you know I would say firstly sales usually is a target oriented task you have something in mind right and I think the most important thing in order to get a good sales done is to actually forget about that task yeah you're you're not there to place someone you're not there to hire someone for a client you're there to have a conversation with an individual to see if they're the right individual and to see if that's going to change their lives yeah and that's a lot more immense than you know what what's your salary AB what's your experience you know you need to have an interest in them yeah what do they do what are they like what are the first what's their routine when they get home yeah right I love it is it someone that takes out their keys and puts it in the same spot every day yeah well this person might be good for a very structured role yeah with routine right yeah is it someone who has four kids and works really really hard but from the hours of 8:00 a.m. to 10: a.m. every morning you don't disturb him yeah right well this person might not work very well in a very large structured organization yeah but they'd love a boutique all right so you know you you get to to know people that way um and then you try to understand you know what their potential is for the role and and you know and then the sale will close itself you know I don't even remember this bring give you some memories but I invited you for lunch in Chinatown and um we hadn't been working together long it was less than a year and I said to you I love you man I want to work with you for the rest of our careers and I think you thought I might have been gay or something because I said do you remember that conversation I remember that conversation you actually I believe you put your arm around me when you said it and I remember I was sweating I was because of because of me doing that or no because we were in China sat on the outside of a restaurant that's right and I was perspiring and that's that's my abiding memory and all I could think of was ah he's going to get a whiff right now well the other the other funny thing is we used to do Friday windup gags and we had a lot of fun and um tell them about the time where we went to KL we had a we we had to do a search to hire a m aiany oh wow Mia we drove yeah in my Alpo GT at the time to KL yes tell them about that first dinner cuz that was hilarious so we we we drove over to to KL we were extremely tired by the end of the drive because it wasn't just sort of driveing keep quiet it was driving we were talking about the search we were talking about candidates I was giving you the brief on who you were meeting the next day yeah and uh and and you know even then we were still trying to arrange for more meetings yeah right because you know like in in a big Corporation you'll take a business trip to cover one meeting yeah right but we were a small outfit and we wanted to get as much mileage as we could yeah from the trip so we ared and I believe it was the shanga it was and it was a relatively worn down shanga as Changas actually tend to be these days right they don't get renovated a whole lot often so they've got this sort of 8s feel to it and we were looking around and it was actually very crowded there were kids running around I don't know what the occasion was but for some reason it was really crowded and one of the only restaurants that we could get a booking for was a quiet F French restaurant yeah right and I wasn't you know I wasn't particular about what we were going to eat yeah but um nonetheless we went there and it was you know table for two the matred gave us a little bit of a strange look what you you know what are you two BLS doing here this is very very much before wokeness and all that yeah and you know I just Shrugged it off I was tired I was hungry yeah we sat down we had a very simple meal we had Burgers we had uh I think you had a burger and I had a steak okay and we had one side of fries which we split yeah right and I think you had a glass of wine glass of and I had a Coke okay good memory very good memory and at the end of that you know dinner we ask for the bill and the bill arrives and you look at the waiter you go I think this is wrong and the waiter looks at the bill yes sorry and he walks away comes back a minute later I forgot to add the wine and that was totally not what you had in mind yeah right I think you were appalled by by the price it was Don what do you remember the prize thing I think it was like 2,000 ring yeah it was about ,000 Singapore do right I remember thinking at the time what the hell right for for a steak of burger a side of fries a Coke and a wine yeah yeah and and uh yeah and and then you never let me forget it you like this better clo right this better be wor oh dude that is hilarious um do you have do you have any questions or things you want to talk about that before we move on to the next part of your career no no I mean you know I I I'll go wherever this uh this takes us so then my memory was I said to you look mate my dad had died and I it impacted me very badly and I thought you know I've always wanted to move to America T and I talked about what that Journey would look like and she got accepted into we didn't know that at the time but I said realistically if I can work it out we're going to move to the US a year from now which was quite unusual and I I said to you look we've got several options option one um you take over nisis right uh option two you stay on as a senior consultant I'll just pay you more and increase your commissions option three we go into a business together um 50/50 I'll bank roll it for the first two and a half years and then after that hopefully we're doing well and you put some money in and the last option which I don't really want to talk about is you leave the firm unfortunately at the end after lots of discussions we sat down we had an 8 hour discussion or something close to that and I don't think it was your intention but you resigned and and um I just said to you this my memory listen do what you got to do no problem with the doors open I don't want you to leave um and then that that was my memory of it yeah yeah my memory of it was a little bit different right um I mean we were all going through our own things at that point in time and you know my waistline was 10 cm smaller I was 15 kilos lighter but I was also you know 15 years more naive right of of everything and at that time that was the year that I was getting married and I was buying my first property right and for me it was a case of how am I going to run this on my own while still working with you because you're all hands on deck 247 in my mind that's how I felt right and I was like he's going to be 12 hours away yeah right there goes Saturday there goes Sunday what you thought that was part of it that was part of it and the second part of it was also I I had been doing it long enough to know that you know I can I look I still do it today so it's obviously not a job that I can't do or won't do yeah but I had been doing it long enough to know at that point in time that I was interested in seeing what else there was right what else was out there so in the end uh I resigned um without a job and then I I don't know who was more gutted I was gutted I came back I was devastated cuz I I really had trained you because I I just thought we would work together forever in my own little mind and I I just knew you were capable of I always believed in you I thought you had were so capable that you you could take on so much more oh no definitely definitely and I think I was you know I was got because I had just quit a job that I had enjoyed without another job to go to so had nothing to look forward to yeah but I had somehow put it in my head that doing this would have been too difficult right interesting staying on to do it in the setup that we had had would have been too tough yeah and you know and and you know and I was thinking about how am I going to pay the mortgage and the down payment and wedding costs and you know I had a lot of bills coming in and I just thought to myself well if I missed billing for a quarter or two yeah I'm done right I I would be really really uh you know and not that long before we had the global financial crisis so we knew that hard times could really impact us it because it it led to Kush my my uh you know ex- business partner leaving um I always felt by the way sorry to interrupt you that uh it's not that kush that didn't see your talent but he didn't I I don't think really saw your talent and I I pride myself on you know believing in people the thing is you you screwed up the whole process cuz after you hiring you I thought I can I can bring lots of people in the business and they're all going to be like Elton and and that was not the case but anyway that's another story yeah but but okay so then where did your thought process begin CU now you're thinking what do I do next yeah so was what do I do next right and I very quickly realized I did you know if I was going to to leave NIS at the time then it wouldn't be to join another search firm all right um really because you know I was leaving the nature of the work to look for something that was different yeah but I only knew head hunting at the time so I then started you know looking at jobs in house and you very very quickly you know run into what is now an internet meme right you know I I I'm I'm looking for someone with 10 years experience right to do a job and uh but nobody's going to give you those 10 years of experience right um so I I I spoke with a number of organizations and and finally the the funny thing is I ended up getting a call I don't know how the person got my my number I got a call from another Head Hunter right and that also blew my mind because there were Head Hunters who were head hunting other recruiters yeah and I had a conversation with the gentleman and he said look you know this is a role that there looking to fill and it requires someone who can hunt for talent they want to save money the Mandate is save the bank money MH and I said okay and they said you know they prefer someone with two three years in house experience and I had been a little bit frustrated by then and I said well look I don't have two three years of experience but you know and I had a Blackberry at the time I remember so take that this blackberry and record me yeah and I said which is the organization he told me I said I'm going to draw out the orc chart for of theirs by memory tell you who's at risk who's not at risk I love it hiring I didn't know you did that I love it and you're going to show that together with my resume right wow and that's how I landed my first job as a in-house recruiter at a bank because the hiring manager uh you know there were two hiring managers involved one in Hong Kong one in Singapore and one in Hong Kong kind of looked at it and said I'll let the person in Singapore decide and the person in Singapore looked at it and said well I had I've landed in Singapore two days ago I need someone who knows the ground you know the ground this is perfect right and U and there you go and that's how I ended up in banking the the the other funny thing is correct me if I'm wrong this is my memory you had when you were a consultant you had developed one particular bank and you had been asked to go make a presentation one of the one of the many times you and I you know had disagreements we always had disagreements but it was not about who was right as what was right and I said look have you pulled together this presentation and you got annoyed with me because it was late at night and I I basically thought you need to pull this presentation so this is my memory and he said no you know I haven't even done that much work with these guys right it's not that important um in terms of the percentage of your Revenue that I think it was only like 10% or 15% and I said yeah but you just don't know what it's going to lead to so you pulled together the presentation we stay back till about halfway that night and it was it was on point you go and make a presentation and then you come back into the office say I've I've made the the co-most placements or something like that with this with this organization and they love the work and I think that lady would partially was she someone in the background of your hire in the bank later on no no she wasn't wasn't but she wasn't but the the fact that I had worked with them okay and I could say Hey you know I did this work with these people in the bank yeah uh actually ended up helping me out during the reference checks ah right was but it it was that they said she said to you actually you've you've done the most amount of oh yeah I was surprised she showed me a chart and everything and she said look you're tied for most number of placements yeah and in my mind I thought I was maybe 15th you know cuz it was it was a small ensage of your time and and work that year right I mean yeah in reality you know you think of these Banks as massive organizations right surely they must hire hundreds yeah you know me placing a dozen in a span of six months doesn't mean anything yeah um but no no actually um it was tied for up most uh placements and it was my first year as a as a consultant yeah brilliant okay so you're now at this private bank what was the difference and what was the transition like so it I mean it worked out perfectly because I had gone in from a very very small organization right I was always taught roll up your sleeves do everything it's not about boundaries this is not my role Your Role kind of thing and you know and to push the envelope so I go in and I'm actually quite mild as an in individual but knowing nothing else that actually made me a little bit of a renegade within the organization ation right you know he's the guy who will suggest something that's not part of policy or process because it will save money for the bank right um and it worked out perfectly because the arm of the organization I was working for was in rebuild mode and they were relatively small yeah right um so and and the other thing is you now had a lovely box and like before in me someone that you really you know connected with though so and that's the thing right that that's the key thing I I had a really good boss and it was the right boss for at that time yeah right like I I don't think um you know the same manager would have helped me the way you helped me when I was at NCIS yeah right it was the right stage of the career to get that kind of manager in place who was in this case someone who thought that I knew what I was doing and said okay you run with it yeah just let me know if you run into a problem but you did know what you were doing cuz cuz when you cuz it think about what we were doing you had to do everything and and if it was new we did projects if you look at the projects that we did back then like feasibility studies talent management projects they were unusual that's true but what I've learned is that truly good people are humbl about what they know I don't know what you're talking about bro and uh and so I thought I didn't know anything right even though I did right and did you really genuinely believe that well yeah and so I would always the good thing about that is I would always try my best yeah right and so you deliver work that was better than people who were coasting who were you know hiding in the numbers right when you're in an organization you you just just don't be the bottom 10% yeah don't be the worst than the department right so a good portion of the working population lives by that right but I thought that if I didn't do my best I'd be that bottom 10% right I thought that if I didn't prove myself I would be the worst um and and you know lo and behold that was not the case at all so you know I had been into my first banking job and I was literally getting a promotion at a rate of one every 10 months right and fantastic that was a really nice feeling yeah yeah and then um you built out you know the bank massively so you were head of strategic recruitment for Asia great they had brought me on board to be head of recruiting for the front office okay for Singapore and then they gave me front to back for Singapore and then they gave me front to back for Singapore Hong Kong yeah right okay so unold unfolded progressively yeah um and what were your key takeaways from that time you know cuz now you're on the other side of the table you know did you enjoy it it was it must have been very different because the environment is very different it's very you know corporate I loved it I loved it but you know we're talking more than a decade ago now yeah and one of my key takeaways is actually you know sadly they don't make companies like that anymore right they don't make companies where everyone feels like it's a family uh you know people feel close you know everybody's name uh that doesn't happen anymore right particularly in in the financial industry yeah yeah it's a shame so you then move on to your next gig yeah right um which was how did you decide to make that decision that was the funniest thing right so I'm in what I had at that time considered my dream job only to find out that the organization was going to be sold yeah and I wasn't sure what I was going to do I had thought I might just sit around and take whatever the redundancy package would be or you know try to fight for a position in the new organization something like that yeah and then I got a call from a bank and they said and the person said hi is this Elton I said yes he said I am with the Strategic recruiting team of Bank XYZ um we'd like to chat with you I said okay what's this about well we heard you're actually you know a strong recruiter and we're starting to expand our team we don't have anyone out in Asia all right and so you get the chance to come in at the ground floor and I said okay and it was a organization I was Vaguely Familiar with having you know head hunted from them uh in the past and having had tried to pitch business into them so I said okay sure no problem and the funny thing was this person was so well spoken I thought I would be meeting with him I did not realize later on he would be the most Junior person in the team that I was joining wow was it right and he was actually setting up the meeting for me to meet with uh you know the overall Global head of strategic recruiting yeah so I meet with them and we have a series of conversations a series of meetings and the funny thing about it was my note taking got me the job yeah right by the way did that gentleman take cuz I met him once through you and he took a lot of notes yes is that correct I remember him absolutely you know he he was he was yet another kind of manager and at a very different level right because this for him was a role that was relatively small and he was taking a risk right he was shifting into a position to build out a strategic recruiting team for a business that had no strategic recruiting team yeah right um so so I met them and you know and and it was it was very Lux it was very Posh we weren't meeting at a coffee shop they had booked a private meeting room somewhere and later on I would come to know that that you know the hourly rate of that meeting room is insane yeah um and we had a conversation he was there and and you know there were a few other interviewers that would come and go and I was taking notes religiously and I remember this cuz the meeting started at 5: and at about 7:00 they then said all right we've got everything we need you know cuz he had flown in to town so he needed to get it done yeah they don't normally interview for two hours but he needed to get it done I said all right that's great now it's my turn and I flipped the page of my notebook and then he realized that I had I believe it was just around 20 22 questions for them nice right good man um and then we went through it right um and and the funny thing is years later that's the one thing he remembers about hiring me he said of all the people that he had met I was the only one who asked questions they almost struggled to answer yeah and they had not thought of as issues with the business model yeah right um and I was also the only one who took it as extensive notes as I had as though I was absorbing and learning as much as I could because that's what I wanted to do if I did not get this J I wanted to know as much it as possible so that I would be in a better position in future to get another job that was similar yeah then you find though it's interesting because I remember talking to you about this before but a lot of people are afraid to take notes because they don't they want to seem like oh does that mean I don't know what I'm talking about and I I I I don't think that makes sense at all right um some people have got brilliant memories they they can remember yeah but I I think it goes a long way so they offered you the job yep and then you're off and then I'm off and then I'm off so I I you know I spend the first I I remember within the first week they gave me a massive project to work on right which was really it it was real eyeopener because you got to see not only how in-house recruiting worked you got to see how in-house senior decisionmaking work right and because I didn't mess it up I then had a real really good year and so again very similar come in in charge of front office for Singapore and then it starts to evolve yeah it later goes uh you know investment advisors for Singapore um oh the person in Dubai's resigned can you take over that so we do Singapore Dubai front office investment advisors uh we have a few strategic sea level searches can you look into that we'll look into that no problem that gets added to the portfolio one day someone comes to me and says would you like a HR business partner role said what exclusively they said no on top of right because we need you to work with this particular manager who had been shifted out of his role into a new department and the shift occurred because I had actually helped to hire his replacement so that was very interesting the bank needed someone who could navigate that without being offensive to him yeah and so they crafted it as an opportunity for me right which it was right don't get me wrong it's a great opportunity you get again to work with a senior person to understand how decisions are made so I took that on that went on for another two three years I sometimes forget I was a HR business partner for that period of time and then after that one day they tapped me on the shoulder and they said would you like to be head of HR for Singapore said okay on one condition I'm not giving up strategic recruiting and they said why I said well firstly it's what I know and secondly it's the one part of HR where I know there's a quantifiable deliverable that nobody can deny yeah right um so I ended up doing both roles and you know and and it was it was lovely I worked with really great people I enjoyed you know building up the teams I enjoyed uh you know getting a taste of management um yeah so now tell us about what you're doing now and this this current iteration of your career cuz you've been evolving you've had the courage to go on to new things and and I I can share with you you know this not a lot of people have that courage um but yeah tell me about what you're doing now and how that came about so Elton 3.0 decided that well you know it was once again time to sort of learn something new do something different shake things up a little bit and so when I had decided to move on from my last job I interviewed with another number of private Banks various organizations there were a couple of offers and nothing quite fit perfectly either my wife did not want to move to a country I did not want to move to a country it it just didn't fit perfectly yeah and so two of the Consultants who had worked with the organization I was at and knew me as a client said hey are you going to set up your own firm all right and if you are we'd love to join well that's that's that's pretty amazing right so you know it's pretty amazing because as as a lot of service providers will know and will attest to they're not many clients that they would want to work for yeah right CU you get to know them you get to see them when you're the one who needs something from them yeah and how they treat you and typically they're not always treated the best right exactly so so that started my thinking right that was the that was the spark that ignited this idea of let's set up a firm so I roped in another friend of mine because you know the more the marrier and we set up a recruitment firm a specialist executive Search firm that works on private banking and in parallel to that I was adjusting some of my own Financial Planning and I had to make a very sheepish call to my agent and say hey you know what I've just I've I'm in the middle of a move I've not planned this out properly and I don't have the finances to you know to do all the various policies and plans that I had in mind that I was going to do and she turned around and said well you know over a decade ago I tried to hire you your skill set's very different my skill set's very different why don't you come on board have a chat and I rubbished it for the longest time for the longest time I did not take it seriously what me head of ha become an insurance agent yeah why would I do that and that literally was the face that a lot of people have given me ever since I made that move by the way yeah right I'm sure is um but she kept rolling out the red carpet whilst the private Banks were making me go through eight interviews yeah she was calling me up and going hey I'm having lunch with the ex CEO of this insurer yeah or I have a seminar I'm I want to sneak you into right and so she was just and she's brilliant right so she's finding touch points yeah so finally I met with her and I said hey look okay what are you talking about she said I think you'd be great at this we discussed it and I realized very quickly that you know if your financial planning in Singapore what are the aspects that you need to be able to cover yeah you need to know a little bit about CPS you need to know a little bit about um income tax you need to know about people's corporate insurance right oh the company covers it that's the the answer you get a lot from people when you ask them about their insurance and who knows about all of these things well someone in HR knows about all of these things because we get asked it all the time so half the knowledge was already already there b in from from a decade in large organizations so I agreed with her and I said okay let's do it so I took the license so making me one of the very very few rnf licensed recruiters yeah uh in the financial industry so I've got my financial consulting license I've got my search firm and I'm sat there thinking do I want to work 16 hours a day because that's two different jobs yeah and then it occurred to me well look let's let's bring it in let's pull it all together let's talk to people about their careers and their financial planning because they're inextricably linked y right um and so that's what I do these days you know I'm so proud of you in the journey you've gone on because it's uh it it it takes a big person to take a step back being introspective and do something new because the reality is you you could have gone back in house if you wanted you know anywhere shape or form um how do you feel now B basically effectively working for yourself it's a very very interesting feeling right um you know anxiety levels for certain things go up the roof whereas certain things I used to be anxious about I don't even think about at all right you you know working for yourself gives you the freedom to not really get too concerned you can't fire yourself right yeah you can lose business but you can't fire yourself so you're not acting in a way that is about covering yourself yeah right I don't care if doing what I do gets me fired because nobody can fire me yeah right I do care that what I do represents myself well yeah because I'm My Own brand no right well the the other thing with you and I you know we work together long enough to know that we we do care about people um you want to do something meaningful and impactful that that's always been the case with you well I'll tell you two you know I'll tell you that there only my memory is so bad these days that even though I've closed quite a number of deals and I now have a decent client pool there two deals which stand out to me the most right and of course you know without naming names or whatever one of them was a head hunting case and it happened right before I actually got my firm set up which means I could not charge for it right I had a banker come to me and he said look you know I am on x amount of money oh well we'll just say it I'm on 1.1 million M right because that's what Bankers can earn and I want 1.4 the hiring bank will not pay me and I put on my HR hat and I told him you're darn right they're not going to pay you an extra 300,000 because that's the full salary of a director and possibly even an executive director in many organizations and that Gap is not something anyone's going to close for you but what you could do is you could take that 1.1 million asking price drop it to one and ask them for the remaining 400 in shares why because as ahead of HR I had signed off on such things before I knew that the bank if they loved that Banker enough would pay for those shares that you go to back yeah organization in question was currently having a really low share price so I told him your share price is going to be really low in 6 months time you're going to be laughing because this 400,000 it's not going to be 400,000 it's going to be 500 520 yeah and guess what that 520 there's no tax on it yeah so guess what give me the tax savings and I'm going to set up for you an insurance plan all right so that's kind of how I married the two love it right and it was the first real deal where I felt I knew I what I was doing yeah right and I don't think anybody else in the industry really advises on that basis right um so now I've I've expanded upon that going through with people you know Sal bandings their life cycles if if you're 45 in an MD and you're on this amount are you going to be up here in 5 years time yeah and if you are how much of it is going to be deferred right and what does that mean to your wealth accumulation so I talked to them about that the other case that that stands out in my mind um happened earlier this year I had a really good day it was January the 6th right 6th of January I didn't rush the White House or anything like that right it was just a really good day for me first of all I won a a prize right largest prize I had won in an organization ever I won €6,000 right lucky draw great day and then I had a bunch of Miss calls and the Miss calls were actually from the claims department of an organization to inform me that the claims appeal had gone through for a client long story short the old agent hadn't done all the due diligence and had gotten one of my clients a minuscule claim for a situation that was deemed to be a case of he's lucky to be alive so imagine that you buy a insurance policy let's say you buy it for a million dollars yeah and the insurance company tells you you're lucky to be alive here's $20,000 you're like wait where's the rest of my money yeah right yeah so it took me six weeks but I finally threw note taking through structured understanding of everything went through websites looked at definitions found the fine print f it and got the full claim that wasn't a million dollars or anything like that that was an example but it was the equivalent right the claim increased by 20 times well the principle the fact that you went out there and you fought for it right it was about fighting for it and that day when I had found out the claim came through that hit me 10 times more than winning those €6,000 yeah right yeah I I that no longer registered you know so I think you know these two deals sort of you know encapsulate what I'm finding fun about what I do now yeah right and I don't have to worry about it I don't have to worry that you know someone senior uh has different interests wants to do something different I get to work with who I want I get to work with good people yeah um and I get to treat them well it's very empowering right oh absolutely well a lot of people tell us a few things about you that a lot of people don't know so for example um you enjoy weightlifting yeah I I am the weight I lift right now listen we've all been there bro but um what are your what are your favorite lifts would you say deadlifting squatting Ben pressing okay favorite lifts uh trap bar Ben uh trap bar deadlift okay try about de lift um did you ever do it on on the uh straight bar I did but because of the various injuries I have yeah and I've got flat feet and plantasia issues and I've got a bent um bone in my shin and all that sort of thing because of those issues um straight bar doesn't work for me yeah long story short I can't do the Asian squat you know the one where your your your heels are underground and you're fully squatted can't do that so trap bar deadlift love to do that um bench uh bench you know is Vanity te exercise uh but I love to do that because I've got you know relatively short arms that makes it a lot easier um uh leg press back in the day was one of my favorites as well uh so yeah but I mean I'm not I've not I've only recently returned to the gym yeah because I had a skydiving accident so what a lot of people won know about me is that as an introvert I'm a massive risk taker yeah very true uh I I love uh I love taking calculated risks right well back in the day I said to you I persuaded you to go to puket and do a bunge jump yeah yeah and skydiving is less scary than bunge jumping yeah right it is and part of it is the stats show that you know you're more likely to get hurt bungee jumping than Sky also it's the ground rush because when you're doing it the ground's coming up so much more quickly to you yeah and um yeah which I found bungee jumping always a lot more scary than skydiving I think the scariest part of skydiving is the ascent of the plane yeah going as it's going up right cuz like you're talking yourself out of it like what am I doing why am I doing this I was in a small single engine plane with a hole in the wall yeah right with a that plane you did in Vegas that was like I think the plane made it more scary it did it did I mean ultimately I was very safe right it was a tandem jump there was a you know a very small Latino no special forces guy he had to be very small cuz I'm very big right and and there's a maximum weight for a parachute yeah right so um and he was just telling me don't worry about it don't worry about it you're going to be fine and sure enough I was fine but I did get a little bit of an injury um we we landed and it was gravel so I landed on my feet but my feet slid so I ended up messing up my tailbone and that's kept me out of the gym for the last year but you're hopefully back in Action now I'm hopefully back in Action we'll talk about Vegas talk about the time where you and I were in we've been in Vegas together a couple of times but the first time um I said to you you're not a big UFC fan but you're a poker fan and and I i' I've never been gambled or done anything so I said to you look let's I want to go to the UFC I want to watch a big world championship fight and it was I think it was July 4th weekend it was that period it was it was right and you said fine but we we got to go out and play Blackjack and got the night before yeah right so so you've just arrived I was already there with the wife and kids and my kids didn't believe you were there I said Uncle elton's here cuz we lived in the us at the time and you were right and then they said Uncle elton's not here and I said no put it on the phone my kids is Uncle Elton so you said I'm a bit tired we're knackered the wife's knackered and I said don't be soft but we're only in Vegas once and we met downstairs we were staying in the Vdara telling what I to go and play um a bit of black Jo well you know years later now that I'm actually you know financially trained and understand these things you play Blackjack like a Trader you play Blackjack like a very safe Trader right and that is if you lose your money that's fine you the moment you make your money you put that part toide but anything above yeah let's go baby right 100% 100% you know and and it was really funny because I think without knowing what you were doing yeah Lady Luck was just on your side right that that evening and lot of drink I remember cuz they were passing out free drinks that's right I'd never been in a casino playing Blackjack before yeah and the next day I'm walking by the same table and the dealer there looks at me and goes where's your friend hits on 16 which if you play Blackjack is you know is not something you really do we but we both did all right we made quite a few grand that night right yeah yeah no we did we it paid for the hotel right it paid for the hotel no that was no complaints yeah so if you could play po poker with any Player dead or alive right a poker player who would you who would you go with oh wow um that's a tough one really well as in you've got a little bit of money you're not scared about losing it so you could like Phil could be there or whatever but like you got some money but you just want to experience it's like if like if you could play tennis like for me would probably be with probably Pete Sampras back in the day or Agy right but poker who would you go with uh probably Phil Ivy yeah right um you know just because he's he's really good at what he does and it would be interesting because everyone always talks about the Mystique of someone right but when you watch it on TV you don't really feel it or see it so I'd be very interested to see what being across the table from that feels like I'm sure right and if you and you said I don't risk losing anything so that's okay because there's no way I win yeah unlikely what about um if you could work out with anyone you know do a session of Weights oh wow um I don't know I find workout to be very singular exercise right I'm always in my head I've got my earphones on I'm not really thinking you you don't want to talk to people right I don't want to talk to people right and and for me it's not it's not about vanity I don't care if the person next to me can lift more than me yeah right that's not it anymore what I care about is when I hit 70 and I'm you know going on a nice holid back to Vegas yeah I can lift that suitcase into the overhead compartment that's it's all about that that's all it's about for me so you know I I I I'll work out with anyone anyone who's fun who's interesting you know I think I'd be interested with working out with someone who was successful at what they do but i' never been at a gym before yeah that would be interesting right I probably that yeah I think I think the one interesting thing is when you sit down across a room from someone and um because I've had a lot of people be a bit cheeky on the phone but when you meet them in person it's a little bit different oh yeah absolutely always puts a smile on my face what about what about like um if if you think of it like cuz you still hold a multi passport yes do you think you'd ever you know go back and retire there have you ever thought about that or you know increasingly doing what I do you spend a lot of time talking to people about retirement yeah which means you spend a lot of time thinking about retirement yeah and when I was 30 I used to say I want to retire by 40 yeah uh you know I feel sad for myself cuz I missed that Target obviously um and and when I was 40 I told myself okay maybe 45 you know and I'm giving away my age year but I've missed that Target as well um and and now you sort of think of retirement in more realistic terms yeah you know um and and so you know I I think one of the things that has come to mind is how increasingly expensive it is to retire in Singapore yeah right crazy I mean I I love this place don't get me wrong yeah but I don't know if I can retire in Singapore so I've been thinking about you know where to go right and you've got all your traditional locations that people with a little bit of money decide to go to and um you know and and Malta Malta is a possibility but I don't feel like I know it anymore yeah you have to go back and do it right and things change I would definitely have to go back and do a trip um but you know I think the cost of living is going to you know be the key determining Factor right I think it is for all of us right cuz otherwise we're just on the hamster wheel but look I I I just want to tell you I'm very proud of you um without sounding consenting whatsoever you know I've always been in your corner uh I loved working with you and then you know you you were a client of mine for many years so and actually I don't think our relationship really ever changed and and I I Marvel at that because if you think about it it it could have done um I I yeah what do you think about that um well firstly I've always enjoyed working with you and and the reality of that is because it's always been simple right when you work with someone whether it's a client or a candidate or a manager line managers they there's always an underlying ulterior motive they're trying to get promoted they're trying to protect their jobs they need to close a particular deal but with you it was always sort of hard on the SLE on your sleeve and I know what it's about and I know what you want to deliver or I know what you expect of me um so that made it very very easy to work with right that's first thing I think our relationships never changed because we've always respected certain boundaries right uh you know and and we've always kind of understood that look you know business is business right um if you're if I'm able to close a deal with you you're able to close a deal with me you know so be it if someone else does it it was simply because they were better yeah right uh straightforward and I think that is you know that is why a lot of people would not understand a you know a friendship and a professional relationship like that because for most people you're working at an or in an organization right you need to hit a particular Target but most people at some point in time they've called in a favor yeah and if they've called in a favor you must have called called in a favor yeah what I've Loved about our relationship is I've never had to ask a favor of you yeah even though I know you'd always give one yeah if I did ask I'm am I still the guy that you would call if your plane went down in Beirut or something and you needed that's funny exavation you know absolutely right so so you know in setting up businesses and in in working we cross paths with a lot of people right people will come to me and they'll say oh you know oh you set up your your search firm you set up jlon partners uh are you working with Paul and I said no and they said you know they'd ask why and I said well firstly I want to do something on my own yeah right and and Paul's got his own thing you know so even though we're we're close you know I don't I don't even consider a competition you're just doing your own thing I'm doing my own thing and they said oh you know is it because he's hard to work with or are you guys still friends right someone recently asked me are you still friends and I said look if if if someone planted drugs in my bag and I got caught at a tie border right like you do in those movies that they make uh my one phone call goes to you right because of all the people I know you're the one person who would stop at nothing to make sure that you know you you get me out right that's that's the reality of course my wife would stop at nothing yeah but I think you've actually got the level of tenacity and resourcefulness yeah that would actually create a result oh man that's that's a big compliment mate it's been a pleasure you know and I look forward to this next chapter of our our friendship and see what happens you're absolutely right I I don't see um because at the end of the day there's there's P enough for all of us and I always believe in supporting people I completely understand you know I've had two guys that I've had the privilege of working with um that are a very close and unusual ways it was you and noid and in fact noid came to work with you at Julius bear nod's my brother-in-law he wasn't at the time and um and I've always felt that when you truly care about someone you want you want you are happy you know whatever their success is and when they're struggling we've all struggled we're there for each other and um I I find it interesting because I I the way I look at it it's like we never played Sports together if we were in school and we played football together for example I would have crushed you well you wouldn't because would have been on the same team no obviously no but no but my point is is the way I see it is we would have elevated the team together you know and absolutely and and it's funny cuz I had a conversation with noid once and we we went fishing and he and I into some of the same things uh so for example I'm he's an avid fisherman I'm not you know I I enjoy it and uh so he's he's a better fisherman than me right we went we went on a boat and we were diving um not not spear fishing but we were trying to see how far we could go and he could swim probably three times the depth that I could um which is crazy because he smokes but he said are you surprised I could do that I said not really I didn't really think about it and I think everyone thinks because I'm so competitive in certain environments well what I've learned is well there are things that you do unequivocally better than than I can do them I'm I'm not even thinking like that um and I I I I realize that you have to allow people you have to give put a feather someone's cap you have to put them forward um and a lot of people don't do that I noticed with a lot of managers they hire B- rate people to distance themselves to insulate themselves at the top sometimes that's a clever thing and wise thing to do but I've always just wanted to work with great people that are brilliant of what they do so that being said thank you it's been a pleasure man you're most welcome thanks for having me good man PR you soon all right Cheers Cheers I

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