#23 with Dimitri Platonoff. Leadership, Collaboration & Career Wisdom

hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with Demitri plon off the regional head of Treasury and trading for ubp Union Bank priv here in Asia it's a great chat we spoke about his upbringing in France and really how he's become a global citizen running a very successful Department it was a great chat I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did Cheers good morning Dimitri how are you good morning Paul I'm absolutely fine thanks for having me it's my absolute pleasure well thanks for coming to my house you've been here a couple of times before I know so how are you today good I'm I'm great frankly the the weather is absolutely beautiful and well I just realized that you were literally living on the green Corridor and it just reminded me of all those runs I used to do on the green Corridor oh did you quite a lot it's beautiful right love area actually yeah I love this area the only thing is it's too busy now it's too popular yeah it is so my run is up Rifle Range Road right which is very very quiet except for a few cars but a lot of monkeys yeah that's true yeah so before we get started for the audience members that may not know you can you be kind enough just to give a a quick introduction as to who you are and what you're doing now please so um I'm basically uh working for a privately owned private bank called ubp and I'm in charge of treasur and trading which is basic basically the global market division for the bank in Asia so I'm heading a team of 30ish uh people in the in the region between Singapore and Hong Kong and we are over overseeing the entire Global Market activities for for the bank I've been 10 years in Singapore 10 years plus and I'm basically entering in into my e years with eth year with ubp um so it's been quite a journey and um yeah that's uh that's been a nutshell beautiful beautiful now the whole purpose of these podcasts is really to get to know the person behind the investments just share with us your journey like growing up in France you know cuz cuz what's unusual about you is you're actually very very International but can you just share your journey and how you got to university did your Masters okay so we are going to go back in time um look I will not I will try not to start at you know kindergarten so we'll start after look um just to set the scene and and and to and it will we'll certainly talk about it but I consider myself as being a GFC a GFC product as in I started my career post GFC uh I had a few STS in the industry before GFC um and but if I go before that basically I grew up in tulus um headquarter of Airbus in an international environment I had a chance to um to follow a bilingual program a bilingual program in in German um went to prep school and eventually uh graduate I mean went to to business school and here I spent two years in business school um specialized in Market Finance did one year at sojen uh in 20 between 2007 and 2008 and when I went back for my third year and the last year of the Masters lemman brother collapsed so you know it's like you start looking at the industry preg GFC and the moment you are basically on the on the on the midst of graduating uh lemon brother collapsed and that's the Parma has completely changed so last year uh in business school in France um it was it was difficult because you are specialized in Market Finance I we we talked about I mean we certainly talk about about the experience at soen but you spend one year on dealing rooms in s General in is at that time to you know for the context the the equity derivatives the dealing room of sgen was certainly one of the largest in Europe sgen was known for you know the the the structure products and and all their trading activities so you get you get sucked in you feel that this is what you want to do and then the world stops you're you're just a graduate I mean you'll be a graduat like any others in in TW in in 12 months time um this the the industry has completely changed and you don't really stand out you know you have thousands of people like you so this third year in business school was a year where I've been thinking a lot about my future what I wanted to do and I was in this situation where at least that's how I analyze the situation I had two Choice whether I push it one notch or two notes uh deeper and I become super specialized in Market finance and I tried to find a way to stand out or I do something else decided to to go for option A so I had the the chance to to to um to do a second master so I'm holding I'm holding two masters and the second one was really focusing on financial engineering programming uh in order to first of all gain a little bit of time so you know the industry will kind of bounce back and see how it will evolve and also to have the right skill set you know to stand out get a job and then move move forward um so so that's what happened when I was you know when I was 23 24 years old just just out of curiosity because I I if you look back that was a very wise decision right you had to adapt you had to make a decision and did you have someone to consult like did you speak to your parents or it's so and and I think it's going to be it's going to be there in the entire discussion is it's you always had someone I mean I've always had someone to whether to help or to advise or to help me to help me think and I'm going to bring I'm going to bring the first person who was very important to me and still very important to me is one of my best friend uh he's now working in New York he's in charge of he's in charge of an exotic trading desk is someone I really admire and what happened when we uh when we came back in in 2008 in September he spent one year at soen I spent one year at s we were in the same business school we had the same professional goals so naturally we said well if we have the same goals we have the same profile we should do the same thing because if we you know if you believe that we were I wouldn't I mean equally intelligent but more about we had the same mindset you know the the the rational was we should do the same so we started to think as a as a couple almost as a couple and every decision decision we made after that we made them together so we decided to apply for a lot of Masters in Canada in France uh we applied to the same master and eventually we decided to go to the same master and so it was not external advice per se of I mean we spoke with a few lecturers in at school and trying to really understand what we should do but in fact he was the number one person and we rely on each other and eventually we did the master and then we split I mean our our pth B basically split he decided to go to structure products I decided to go to treasury he stayed in Paris I went to Switzerland but we are still in contact and is someone I I I and and we did a lot together and we basically helped each other to make sure that we would achieve our goals so that's what happened but it's not it's it was not a lonely Journey well you know you know what I found in life and certainly in business there are a few things that you know hopefully you you have but potentially really need Godfather or godmother and a running mate if you have a running mate someone that you know is running at the same Pace as you a little bit ahead sometimes playing catchup with you it's it's it's big um now when you what was your first Masters in so first master was you know the generic business school master from uh you you will you will have I mean from from the France education system so uh it was I was specialized in in in Market Finance but it was a a gener I mean it was a generic Master if I may say the second one was was really focused on financial engineering programming products and again the scientific director of this master at that time um made made us a pro made us a promise as in he he knew the situation was critical and we and that's why I'm saying we because Alex and I were in in in in this situation where we you graduate from the one of the top five business school in France so your your degree has a value but not enough to basically meet your goals so we needed to make a difference and the scientific director of of this master made us a promise is it was a foral f ex sales uh very successful it told us well my my best students I place them I have a network I know people in the industry so if you play if you play ball um there will be a reward in a way it was very transactional and we said well of course we need to acquire skills uh and and hard skills but most important was we don't want to stay without a job at the end of this master it's a financial investment it's a Time investment um our parents were supporting us so you know it's it was healthy pressure yeah but at the end of the day you needed to find the person who will facilitate your uh your entry in the job market and it did that's huge but at the same it huge and and I I really look I'm I'm very grateful but there was a tradeoff we worked we work during this six months or six odd months more than I mean at the same Pace as we work when we were in prep school because I don't know if you are familiar with the French system but before uh entering Business Schools most of the time you do two years after the the after graduating from high school and before the business school you have two years which are basically High School on steroids and at the end you have entrance exam to Business Schools and these are two years where you know you are you are 17 18 your brain is is able to absorb a lot of information and to to to think and you you push it to the maximum yeah four years after we did it again but that was the trade-off the trade-off was we need to a the master in order to get a job it worked because I mean at the end of the day after the master I joined in I mean I join agrial Swiss which become CR agrial IND in Geneva and I spent seven I mean six years and a half okay then I join ubp and Alexon joined HSBC and he's still at HSBC amazing so we basically I mean he did one interview in his life and is is set I did one as well and then you know the it's it's hisory so yeah looking back we did the right it's always easy to say oh we did the right choice looking back but the point is we made sure that that Choice was the right one and that's the philosophy it's never about oh we are the crossroad and one choice is good one choice is bad no it's just we had a choice we but we we did what was expected in order for this choice to become the the good one you know why I think this is so interesting and and sing for for young people listening is you know a lot of people their careers happen to them but I'm a firm believer that if you take stock you start planning and you think ahead of time if you go back like my son's turning 18 at the end of November and you know if you think about it where you you set off path where you study who you study with who you study under it can it can change the shape of things and even though you move from IND swis to ubp you're still work with some of your colleagues from IND the swis right so it's it wasn't just about changing jobs you still have that loyalty that history with people yeah well that's that look that's what you said is very very important you you can try I mean you need to you need to be prepared but you cannot anticipate everything yeah one quote that resonates and and I'm you know I tried to live by is and it's from the scientific the the scientific director of of this master it was in a very it was in a very uh in a very shallow moment we had this team we had this team building and we are 20 or 25 in the in the cohort this year and it was the first event before we started the program we were supposed to gather the program was in N so in South in southeast France and we we were supposed to gather um and to to have this team building on some islands that are facing can and n and he told us it's it's very it's it's it's just an anecdote but you you'll understand where I'm coming from he told us be on time and then he said anti and and be on time make sure that you're on time anticipation is a key factor of success so to your point you can try to anticipate it's impossible to basic phally prepare for all the scenarios but you have to anticipate you know it's like prep it's like prepare for I mean it's it's hope for the best prepare for the worst yeah you canot anticipate all the scenarios but you have just to to to think ahead a little bit and and adapt so we try to do that when when it comes to graduating then you know going back on on on on your point yes it there there was continuity as well in in the way I I manage my career but again that's not something I've done alone uh you meet people along the way uh you you have great mentors and it it's it's really what what is what is striking Me What I'm Looking Back is at every stage I found someone uh who advised me who guide me who mentored me yes and that's I'm I'm not you know it's not on your I I don't want to to I don't want to narrow it down to pure luck it's not because you have to basically provoke that L yes but when you find the right people you are open enough to take the advice and uh take you know take the good thing and and and and and and uh learn from the people who are surrounding you then you can move forward so yes I had I have the chance to to work with great mentors at indust I still have the chance to work with certainly the person who had the the most I mean the greatest impact in my profession profal and personal life um and that's that's a chance especially in this industry um but he's first of all he's not the only one and and you know you have technical mentors and um we'll talk about it but I have a coach you know I have a PT as well and it brings a lot to it brings me a lot as well so yeah it's it's never it's never it's never I mentioned it's never a Lely lonely Journey or I made my choice and it's me me me and I've no it's you rely on people you trust yeah and from there you build your own your own path and that's yeah that's basically the story of the 20 last years well it's a collaboration and I think the way that you lead and you manage and you work with people is very collaboratively right uh we'll come on to that in a moment because I think you know I remember the first couple of times that we met the the thing that struck me was that you you had a very clear vision of what you wanted but you also asked me what I thought right and then we found Solutions together um which is which is always a pleasure when working with people look collaboration and I think we should not underestimate the power of collaboration and and then when you translate it into managing people um that's what I I mean I'm really trying to live by and and manage the team by the with I mean by this principle is collaboration you know we can be very cheesy and say oh there's no eye in team but that's the reality so of course it's an easy one and everyone will basically use this kind of moto but there's a difference between just stating it and implementing it on a on a daily basis um so collaboration is is key but it's in it's you know it's like you pull a thread and once you talk about collaboration it's about trust it's about having the right people around you it's Team Dynamics uh is the ability to delegate as well um it's being able to micromanage at some points and to micromanage uh I mean at I mean in in other times so it requires a lot of flexibility a lot of Drive um but you know at the end of the day the key word is is benevolence yes it's you put the human with a capital H in the middle of the the equation and then yeah it comes naturally and I don't want to again I haven't you know maybe I should but I haven't read a lot of books on management is something you have to feel deep down it's you know it's really in your gut and then of course you you will you will plug technical skills you will plug understanding of lot I mean of bigger problem and issues but the human capital is the number one capital of the team of the industry of a company and that's something that's something I learned from from uh from my managers and and and from yeah from from Philip who who I'm working with on a daily basis yes based in Geneva and I had the luxury and the chance to see managing team since 2010 so it's been almost 15 years and the way you treat the people the way you trust the way you delegate and and the way I operate on a daily basis is is you know is really influenced by how I've seen him treating his teams uh and and treating me as well on the daily basis but but his teams in different setup in different companies but always with this very with benevolence uh uh in the center of everything beautiful I love it now a lot of people um unless you're from private banking may not understand that each private bank has a different structure and DNA so at ubp you run treasury in trading just share with us what constitutes that what is the the team set up like okay I'll try to be I'll try to be concise because you know when when you when we start when we start touching on the job I can become very passionate so I could spend you know hours and hours talking about the the the the function and what we do but I'll try to be concise so treasur and trading as I mentioned is the global I mean it's the global market division of the bank so uh in the region I would say we have we basically have three main missions the first one is to basically provide a market access to our clients and to the bankers so uh on a v i mean very diverse range of products so when it when it touches markets with listed markets OTC products we are here to Prov provide a market access uh so dealers are here to take orders um execute place them in the market uh serve the client the second the second mission uh is to act as as an a poll of expertise when it comes to certain products structure products um FX um FX structur so we are you know the team act as a poll of expertise and then try to to to spread this expertise across you know investment advisors Bankers eventually uh a client so that's the second mission the third mission and I think this is what makes treasur and trading atbp particular is treasury is part of the global market Division and Treasury um I'm a treasure by training so as also you know I'm a treasure by training this is how I started my career at indos treasury manages the balance sheet managing manages the liquidity the the the uh the regulatory ratios and manages the manages the the banks the banks Investment Portfolio but beyond you know this this terms and you know what would you what you you would read in a JD Treasury is is basically the core and generally speaking it's the core of the the bank a bank is loan and deposits it starts there of course banks have evolved they offer a lot of service private banking ex I mean in private banking industry but you have a you know Corporate Finance Etc but the core is loans and deposits and treasuries are the core of that and Beyond Beyond just loan and deposit is treasury is the is is in charge of maintaining the bank's reputation by making sure that the balance balance sheet is strong enough yes and ATP it's even more important because we are familyowned so treasury is is a direct agent agent of the shareholder we are here to protect the bank's reputation from a financial you know from a balance sheet perspective and a financial strength perspective and well that's that's what we do and and why it's very important if you if you put this into the into the context of banking but of banking in general I think one of the most underrated risk at the moment is the is the credit risk yes I think ones have to bear in mind that when you bank with a bank you take the credit risk of the bank and when you buy a product that's the same you know if you buy an an if you buy you know if if you buy a bond for example everyone understand that you take the credit risk of the bond of the bond issuer but that's the same where do you keep your where do you keep your your money where do you keep your wealth M who are you banking with will this Bank be there tomorrow in 3 months in 10 years and the reputation of the the strength of the bank its reputation is directly related to what treasury does and does not and in the context of a famon bank it makes the treasury role uh um key to the to the bank success not not the it's not the core business because ubp is a private bank but we but treasury is here to make sure that we can basically operate and that clients have faith and that they have trust in the in the in the bank they're banking with but generally speaking I mention it credit risk is very important and when you decide to B when you decide to work with FTX for example clients were taking the the the FTX reputation risk and unfortunately FTX went bil up because we know there was a fraud Etc but in a way you know who I mean you should know who you are dealing with and and when I say it's underrated it's because I don't think we really realize that that's the risk you're taking when you leave your your money with the when you leave your cash with with a certain bank for sure um and everything that happened over the two three last years has basically kind of shifted a little bit more the uh the awareness and increase the awareness of the of the industry but also of the clients uh to towards the credit risk and this is where we we have a you know we have a card to play because we are we are very strong we are very well capitalized our rting is very good and the way we manage the balance sheet is very safe yes so going back Market access P of expertise and making sure that we have a very strong balance sheet these are the three role of treasure and trading at qbp and as I mentioned it's it's a very unique setup compared to other Banks it is unique and I think one of the things well you're you're unique in part of that because you report directly into Geneva um so you have oversight for Asia so you represent Asia and connect you know you're you're the bridge between uh HQ and Asia um but there are a few things I want to touch upon that I think that you do that is very unique and different so for example when I've placed Bankers with the organization you know you've been very involved in getting anything ready for the banker that they need that might take some time if the bank doesn't already have it you get everything ready and prepared to really facilitate what the banker does when they come on board um you've been involved in the enhancing of the platform from a techn technological operational human capital perspective can you talk a little bit about that because when I look at what you've done you've hired some very senior people um from all corners of of of the planet culturally uh but in so doing you've raised the profile of of the business here in Asia well thanks thanks for giving me the credit but again I think it's it's the credit of the organization and and we had the chance to have the support to to grow the to to grow the the bank to grow the setup to um to adapt to the to the clientele in the region so so if I if I you know if I go to to go to your question and and I will basically divide it into two we did a lot on the techn technology technological front and we still we are still in investing in the platform because this is where the industry is going and if you don't want to lag behind you you have to we have to make sure that we stay uh we stay up to dat and that we're able to uh compete with our friendly competitors because you know the industry the industry does not sleep so we need to to invest so that's the and and we keep doing it and I had we had the chance to have the support from head office to have the support from the management locally in order to yeah strengths that to improve the platform and to um to meet you know the the industry requirements and the expectations from the client that that's one um we had a chance to we had a chance to be able to invest into people as well uh and there are few things we've done together uh but we we've been able to grow the team bring seni bring senior people uh bring senior staff bit in Treasury and trading or you know in every single Department of the bank again in order to grow in a su in a sustainable way and to um to also tap on external point of view I mean on the on the experience that those those those colleagues will bring to the table in order for us to go I mean to understand what's done elsewhere and to take what's good maybe try to leave what's bad and to and and to really grow um maybe faster um than if we're trying to do it ourselves so you know it's basically it's also you know it's like it's almost it's it's almost like we are looking we are looking at ubp history but on a very small part of the business because GBP has grown you know uh after acquisition after acquisition and that's what we're also doing is we bring experience and we try to tap on this experience so you have the two you have the two sides the technical side um the the human side and we go back to and you know and we go back to human capital now these are the two points now when it comes to getting ready when we on board new Bankers that's part of the duties of Treasury and trading but not only Treasury and trading of the entire Bank to um to make sure that we are able to provide service from day one um and you know what first impression last yes and you know when you have new Bankers senior senior staff coming in you have to make sure that they they they join when they join they feel welcome they feel that we're able to deliver and that they they will be able to rely on the platform to deliver that's very important that's something that we've we've improved and master over time today uh and and today you know the one of the most satisfactory feedback I've I I get from bangers is oh when we arrived it was very seamless and we felt that we are home after a few a few days yeah that's incredible but it's not only treasur and trading and it's it's it's clearly not me it's really a collective effort and something that we really mastered and we see the we see the the the success we've had over the the 10 last years or the eight last years when really ubp grow in the in in in the region uh in 2016 that's very important because if the if the if our colleagues they feel they feel comfortable and they feel welcome um they you will grow this sense of commitment faster than you would think and the commitment to the name the commitment to the bank is is absolutely important in the structure like ours now last point you mention diversity and that's that's one of that that's that's something you know when and and here if I look at what what we've done at the treasury on the treasury and trading side uh diversity is is at the the center of the the the recruitment strategy when we have to recruit um it's not necessarily something that you cannot force it right it has to be natural but you also need to know your team very well I have the chance to have team which is the size is is still manageable you know it's I mean trading floors can be huge if you go to you know the largest bank trading floors you have 100 200 300 people but we are we are 30 and uh having a diverse team is is highly important so diversity in terms of culture diversity in terms of gender diversity in terms of origin diversity in terms of experience um in order to create an ecosystem within the dealing room and make sure that everyone basically understand what the N what the colleague is doing because they all have an impact on what they're doing yes we're here to serve clients and treasurers are here to manage the balance sheet and the structure product team is here to provide expertise on very complex product but at the end of the day if you create the right ecosystem the team will work together and it makes the manager's life easier because at the end of the day you know we all like to work hard but we also you know the you don't want to make your life hard and by creating this ecosystem by bringing diversity you create I mean you try to create a strong team that works together it's not easy every day there are ups and downs um managing managing people is I think is the hardest task yeah uh acquiring technical skills is something if you put if you put time to it and if you put your mind to it you eventually will understand how an option works or how structure product works managing people is like it's evolving all the time you think everything is settled the day after there's there's an event there's there's a word there's something happen and suddenly you see that the entire team Dynamic has changed so you have to you have to constantly adapt it's it's very challenging but it's highly rewarding yeah um I I want to just touch upon something that um is quite unique to you so when we first started working together you needed to hire a few senior guys and the one thing that you said to me was look I want to build a team that will be together for many many years to come and it's got to be a cohesive team and all those people are still there doing really well I know um but I want to just touch upon this I've been in recruitment for 30 years right um and you are the only hiring manager that I've ever worked with that called me to say look uh Paul can you please let the second or third candidate that we're not proceeding with know exactly why and then you gave me almost you know three or four bullet points and then you said on top of that once you've done that can you arrange for me to have a private coffee with them I just want to explain to these guys that they're world class but this is the reason why personto person and then in so doing I think you just created uh such a a strong connection with those people so if I called them today and mention you they would speak very very highly of you where did you get that from because that is very unique it's thank oh first of all thank you thank thanks for the the feedback and thanks for sharing it's it's it's R touching me because it's it's some you know it's not something that I I thought about and that's you know it's it's not necessarily by Design it's I think it's pulling back the human in the middle of the the the conversation first of all that's something that I've learned as well because I've seen my mental my mentor acting in such a way that it came naturally um we did it I mean I would I would love to tell you that I do it all the time that's I mean there's I don't and and I'm but I'm trying to do to have this kind of uh feedback session as much as I can uh when we are recruiting so we did it with a few senior profile that you I mean with senior profile that you you sent to me I did it lately uh when when we closed uh an important hiring uh that that we've done late I mean that we've done in in Q3 I've done it with the graduate for example we have a graduate program we had two we had two candidates brilliant Brilliant Minds uh you know young people I I sat with the candidate we we decided not to hire to explain because I didn't want to to shoot him while he was basically taking off he was pretty sure that he would get the job and eventually I had to explain to him why why he didn't get it and and you know it's not technical skills because then it boils down to Team Dynamics uh it it boils down to making sure that the team that the the person you hire will fit within the team so it's not only about technical skills and hard skills the the so I'm trying to do this but why I'm trying to do this it's eventually I told I told human human in the center of the conversation um benevolence and dignity as well yeah I've been on the other side of the table yeah okay I mean look even if if even if you don't interview you know every day I mean I've been I've been I've been you know looking for jobs internships Etc no matter what's your level senior or not you're on the side of the table and sometimes you don't understand so you also have to you are facing uh professional who spend time we investing time with you yeah um you of course we invested time on them as well but they invested time um they started to project themselves and eventually you cut the cord and yeah it's about dignity and making sure that uh our reputation remains pristine and we go back to reputation because at the end of the day that's the that's I think that's that's the number one asset we have to to sell is our reputation be at the firm level at the at the personal level at the team level um but it's not something that I'm doing for the sake of the reputation it's really is genuine it's genuine and that the values you want to convey and the last point which is you you know if we go back on on recruitment you don't know anticipation is a key factor of success you don't know what will happen tomorrow you don't know if that person you know if this candidate uh tomorrow might come back or will have the right profile and I don't want to take your chance because if they were able to make it to the last round it means they were fit for the job yeah they were they might not be the fittest at that specific point of time but they were fit for the job that's that's you know it's interesting because quite often when we get a know on a candidates to say they typically two or three people shortlisted um but what we'll always hear is yeah we're not proceeding and we're never given any more color than that and you know if someone has gone through say s 8 nine 10 rounds of interviews they've done a lot of research it you need to sit down with them so typically what I will do is I will also write them a letter um and I actually will physically post it to them because sometimes they can CU all they'll remember is they'll shoot the messengers a no so if you put it down and you're respectful you give a little bit of color um it goes a long way let's let's talk a little bit if we may about challenges in the market what do you feel are some of the greatest challenges in capital markets today and how are you going to navigate those I I so I don't think it's necessarily only in capital markets I mean the challenge I'm going to State and it's going to be very obvious but uh I I I'll drill I'll drill down a little bit but I think the emergence of AI and the emergence of new technology is a challenge where is a challenge it's a challenge for the banks it's a challenge because you have a lot of new players you know popping in and I mean here and there trying to um and trying to basically challenge what the the banks are doing and and and what's happening on Capital markets but why I mean why it's a why I believe it's a challenge Beyond Beyond just oh there will be Robo advisors and you can automate a lot of tasks is I currently I go back to I mean I'm a bit mon Maniac you know but I go back to the team I had the chance to have a to to to have a team was quite young and why it's a challenge because my responsibility as a manager is to make sure that we are giving the team enough Ammunition To Survive 20 more years and a if you don't embrace the change then yeah you you'll basically a bank you know if you don't embrace the change and if they don't embrace the change and if we don't give the means to the to the to to the teammates to to evolve then they will they might be replaced by AI in a way or in another so point is you have to you to know to understand how the tool how it works and how to embrace it and how to enhance yourself instead of passive you know passively waiting for the ti I mean to for the wave to come because it be too late so it's a challeng on that then related to AI I think here it's it's a challeng with the younger generation and I'm just looking more I'm looking at the on the client side um is defy and I'm not a look I don't want to sound you know I don't want to sound like I'm reluctant to change and I I don't you know it's not who I am but defi is with all due respect with what the the defy actor are doing there's a lot to there's a lot to learn because they are new players and they really focused on certain aspect of the the business but what I what I dislike is the way um with think I mean the way we want to disrupt the how the banks are operating and that defi suddenly will become the the the banks 3.0 don't think is as easy as it sounds and we have to be very careful because a lot of new new I mean young clients and the younger generation um tend to believe less and less in the banking industry and uh want to you know and and and want to to to to dive into defy and on those service but then we go back to credit risk reputation some of some of the the players will emerge and will become leaders of the industry of tomorrow but not all of them and it's not because it's now a keyword that this you know we have to basically uh bend over and suddenly uh uh look into you know and and suddenly adapt to everything what what to everything what defi is proposing banking industry is is still very you know is very key to the to the world economy and we need to get inspiration from what's happening but we should also think about as I mentioned reputational risk what it the consequence and uh and and not and and and and and basically understand why the the why the younger generation is into these new protocols yeah so these are the two challeng AI on one side defy but not defy as in oh we are going to be disrupt yes we are being disrupt but more about the fact that you will lose uh uh you will lose the the you you you are losing I mean the banking industry is losing credibility and and CR and and and we need to to make sure that we are debunking a lot of things that happening on on defi at the moment talk a little bit about the ratory framework because in Asia it's becoming increasingly stringent how has that impacted your approach to daily operations and and what framework you've created within the business look reg regulation is I mean we need to we need rules to operate and regulation is becoming stricter and it's becoming more stringent but I think it's for the greater good when you look at how Banks were regulated preg GFC and what happened with with Basel 3 and now we are talking about Basel 4 it's it's it's a necessity but now has now banks have I mean are more capitalized are stronger than than than they have theyve ever been uh the latest incident we had in in US is just because the Basel 3 ratios are I mean certain type of banks in us are are not basically forced to uh to operate under Basel 3 and we've seen the consequence so generally speaking we shouldn't see the regulation as a threat it's an opportunity to operate in a better way to protect the customers and it's up to us to adapt is it difficult is uh is it a challenge because sometimes you know the rules are are basically so strict that we have the impression that we cannot operate yes now it's our role to adapt and to ensure that we Embrace those regulation uh and try to do our best because at the end of the day regulations are applicable to all the players so it's not you know it's it's it's not like some players do not apply I mean if generally speaking it's not like some players are not applying the I mean are not following the rules we all follow the same rules um we just have to be to be agile yeah and make sure that everyone within the industry and within the organization understand why we are why why the the why the regulation is evolving in this direction and why we have to well to cope with the regulation and what can be done to keep oper ating efficiently yeah for sure but now I want to change t a little bit because um even though you're from France you really are in many ways a global citizen um and I I want to come back to the question I I want to know is how that's influenced your approach to leadership you know and your approach to finance but talk about that because your mom for example lives in Africa what what's the Heritage how did that come about okay um so indeed my mom lives in Africa she was born there actually she was born in Africa she holds two passports she's uh she she spent the 21st years of her life in in Sagal so in in Western Africa my parents have met in in Sagal oh really so my my father used to live in in Sagal as well for a short stint um and but you know if I just if I just expand because this is this is one part and I go to Cal regularly I mean it's it's it's it's a country which is very close to my heart uh obviously but if I just widen a little bit um I have a French accent I I I was born in I grew up in France I have a Russian name my father was half Russian uh the Russian part of the family uh uh you know went to to to Western Europe after the after the first push uh that that failed in 1909 uh so there's the history of the the history of the family is re tied to all the events that happen um during the 20th century uh my grandfather graduated from from an from an engineering school in in France called poly technque and when you graduate from from poly technque uh you are by I mean de by law you are a French army officer so he fought for France but he was born in Geneva with two Russian parents so you know it's like this Multicultural environment is is is part of of my DNA um have you done a DNA test at I did and actually it's it there's no surprise it's it's really where you I mean it is what you thought it was yeah exactly with with one qu you know with with one quarter coming from Eastern Europe so so it's really in line with with the the the the the family history so Russ Russian name uh French culture obviously French accent and in three weeks I will be Singaporean congratulations so you done it you've done all the paperwork I've done all the paperwork I'm going to collect my pink I see in in a in a few time so how was the was the test there there was no test there was no test there's no test oh really there were no Theory Knowledge Test really there once once you once you receive your your in principal approval then there's an e-learning there's a community sharing session uh why why did you decide to to do this well there are there are a lot of there are a lot of factors um that's a big one good for you man um thanks thanks and I'm really proud I'm I'm really proud of that and it's it's not of course we all know that Singapore citizenship is is exclusive so it means that I had to I will have to give my French passport back yeah it doesn't mean that I'm rejecting France and my French heritage far from that I think it's it's a strength it's there it's it's you can you can hear it on a daily basis so I'm not trying to hide it no um but it boils down to values it boils down to uh the where you belong and this multi cultural heritage and and the the fact that I grew up in this in this environment makes the makes the the this the sense of belonging a bit blur in a way I've lost my father when I was 16 so on top of this The Roots my my siblings lived in France um but they they lived abroad for the for for the the the major the major part of their childhood they live in they live in USSR they live in Saudi Arabia they live in af I mean in in Cameroon in Greece my my brother speaks Russian my my sister speaks Greek um so it's it's part of this so so first of all you have the sense of belonging and to be frank when I very I mean I've been 10 years in Singapore when I come back when I'm asked where is home home is Singapore it's starts there yeah but then there's there's admiration for the country yeah um what happened here and I mentioned it yesterday yesterday yesterday to the to the team because I kind of announce that I got my citizenship what happened in Singapore is a miracle it's it's a miracle for it's of course the most obvious and the most visible thing is oh it's an economic Mir economic Miracle yes okay point taken but let's deep let's you know let's dve into it it's the diversity the fact that um the multiculturism is that is is the is the the Cornerstone of the the Singapore Society for sure um what what lianu has has designed because at the beginning you have to design it you have to design it you need the vision and then you need the time to uh to execute Vision but that's a miracle and day I'm really amazed so then it it B you know I told I talked about values and I don't want to talk about politics but when you see how Europe is evolving how France is evolving I felt less and less uh uh you know close to to to I mean I feel I feel that I belong less and less to to France and I belong more and more to Singapore you you know someone asked me the other day you know which is the best run company in Singapore and I said Singapore Inc EXA you know it's uh but that's amazing fantastic I've not made that decision myself cuz I've got an Irish and a British passport and it's uh it's it's a tough one right and with brexit and this that and the other um but like my son goes into National service next year and um it's it's but Singapore's been very kind to us right as as foreigners it has been you know it has been well it's Singapore is very he has been very kind to us as foreigners yeah but you know it's it's a fstar country immigration is chosen so at the end of the day if you give back yeah at the end of the day it's the the the I would say the the moral agreement is very clear yeah so you give back be charity work B you know giving back to the community um in a way or in another it will be known and and here we are so I'm very I'm very grateful because I know that it's it's not it's not an easy it's not an easy uh process it's not given to everyone and I'm sure you have met you I'm sure you've met more people than I did who didn't get their PR or didn't didn't get their citizenship so I really cherished it I really cherish it really you know what the thing is I love so many different countries as do you um but someone said well why do you keep living in Singapore and I said well put it like this I came back I think it was last Friday night uh from Hong Kong and I went through and there was facial recognition so the whole process was 2 seconds I said that's why exactly right and and and I met my wife here right so she's Singaporean exactly and and and sorry to and and I think this is that's the very visible part and what's very what's very interesting and what's what I it's it's when you start digging and understanding how we we we reach that point how we reach the fact that immigration take two seconds for us who are residents but also for for visitors yeah and and that's where where what I'm what I admire about Singapore and the miracle that happened and this diversity and we go back to the concept of diversity um it's it's very important to me close to my heart because of my background but you know because of my personal life as well I've met my partner here she's Indian we belong here we belong here beyond the beyond the the the the the the the passport you carry it's this this diversity the um but in terms of Origins but in terms of people we are meeting as well so I I really I really love it but genuinely with the you know from the the depth of my heart yeah I'm not rejecting France I'll be French I I but you know it's you also when you have the the luxury to make a choice and it it basically turn into your favor um you you know I'm I'm happy with this decision I'm not regretting regretting regretting sorry and I still love France there's no for sure for sure I love it now one of the things I really want to touch upon cuz we have a quite a few different things in common but one has been Fitness now you've really been on a fitness journey and I only came I only came across this you had told me about it over dinner but um I was at a chiropractors and then I saw one of the uh case studies and there was you and I couldn't get over how much weight you had lost just just share with us where this began and ended because people looking at you probably don't realize how much work it's taking for you to get to where you are now which is huge by the way congratulations that's it was a journey indeed uh actually started eight years ago at the same time as I started at qbp oh was it um Can can you share if you don't mind like how much weight have you lost like and how heavy were you so I was close to 100 kg yeah so I never I never brid a triple digit okay never and I know and and never but I was close to it and and I've lost 30 30 30 kilo in in a matter of four months that's crazy by the way that is crazy that was no that was and frankly to the point where I was you know when I was looking at my my weight the the weight curve you know my friend started to call me Enron because you know it's like was like it was a cliff um uh but I met I met I met the CFO of Enron by the way it's another story beone um but you have to tell me about it actually Enron and wcom were were were the the the subject of my um uh of my grand oral um for my first Master wow so about you know a corporate governance Etc let's we let's not let's not digress and we keep so so what happened did you did you basically get to the point where you saw a doctor and you realize hey look I'm a young guy I've got to I've got to turn my life around what what happened no well this is what happened but it's it's the opposite actually and you know I was talking about you always I mean I always had the chance to have someone who cared enough about me to tell me and to advise me and to try to uh you know try to give me the right advice my G my G told me six months I summer of 2016 she told me you're a heavy drinker you're heavy smoker you you like your food she's like no at the time I was 30 years old she told me you want to die at 40 be my guest keep on doing this and you know my first because this is I mean this is why I'm deep down I was like yeah you know what she doesn't know what she's talking about but the problem is it resonates you know it's like then you process okay she found out that had a condition hypothyroidism I mean it's so so on top of this we found out there was a problem that was certainly related to to the fact that I was not losing weight but that was the trigger and then I just I to you know we were in in July 2016 got the job at 2 P not that she was not hard enough to take the job at this age Etc no I decided that you know I'm going to Embark into a fitness journey um and we need to think about the the the the the you know the environment and the F Fitness environment eight years ago now it's very mainstream you know everyone and and I think Co kind of uh uh you know emphasiz the the the the fitness the the fitness Trend Etc but eight years ago um I had a few constraints um I was looking for I was looking for a PT and a PT firm uh I wanted to be able to work to to train in Singapore and in Hong Kong because I was traveling I'm still traveling a lot to Hong Kong but I wanted to be able to to uh to work out in Hong Kong and follow the same uh program and I wanted someone who would take care of my food and eight years ago there was there were not a lot of choices so I ended up uh I ended up with ultimate performance they still they're still around they're still one of the leading you know gym and I'm not you know I'm not doing any AD but that's you know this is this is what happened and I I decided to go with them I've met my my my trainer there and I'm still training with him he's not with you anymore but he's someone who's basically has been with me for eight years and I rely on him on for a lot of things I still train with him two times two times a week amazing uh on on S on Sunday this week we'll go we'll go running together we have a 17 km uh scheduled so I have very close relationship with him but going back on the journey that's what happened and eventually I followed the program for a few months I stayed longer than that with this with this uh with this PT firm yeah um because losing weight is one thing and losing weight actually is not is not the mo is not the hardest part because losing weight it's it's mechanical defin it what the sustainability of it sustain is making sustainable yeah and then rebuild your rebuild your strengths we build muscle because what those firm those firms do and they they and when you go into this program is they shrink you it worked I mean they you know they shrink you but then you have to be able to maintain and you know it better than I do you have to rebuild mus you know muscle mass Etc and the maintenance part is the hardest because it's not about the physic it's what happening in your head as well because you become another person I said it heavy smoker heavy drinker um food was and it's still a very important of my life but then you have to become disciplined and and it you need to build the frame the framework uh you can I mean you need to build the framework you need to rebuild the discipline uh or build a discipline and have a plan and um and basically follow your follow the plan and and and then it then you see the progress and it's very satisfying because if you follow the plan then you you really you see the are you doing a combination I know you do a lot of running but are you doing some gym work some resistance training as well I do yeah I break down break down like what do your work two three times three times three times a week and when I'm not injured and I'm and I'm just recovering at the moment I was running every day yeah every day you got a what did you do as an alternative a bit of swimming or something a bit of swimming a bit of cycling um but that's that's a very important part of my life so talk about when you started this like what could you do 5K in when you first started you had to walk it versus now big difference in time right the the the funny story is I used to run youone when I was bigger so that's the that's the story so I was I mean so imagine carrying a 30kg pack my knes are not my knees are basically now uh are not thanking me for that so I do a lot of strength training around you know the the legs in order to make sure I do not enjoy myself again so my knees kind of suffered um but I was doing 5 in 30 minutes and and and now I mean the the numbers I mean now I I've I've basically improved and what did you get your your 5K down to my my PB is below 20 but you see it seems I'm I'm I'm a long Runner as you know so in fact the 5K PB does not really matter it's below 20 for sure what so go through your numbers like for 10 for the have you done a marathon now right yeah so Marathon not yet and that's that's the that's my bucket list bucket list and but is is in the head more in the phys it's it's um but if you're going for a personal best for the marathon other than just completing it you got to do it in a in a healthy climate it's too hot here to to run fast times right Singapore is running in and working out in Singapore is uh is is really uh is really a challenge but the good thing is then it preps you for uh preps you very well when you when you basically compete in a normal environment um have you got any Endeavors or projects that you're working towards like for the marathon or what's your next goal on the physical side my my next goal now is to go back in shape so last year I got a sever injury so it was and and you know my performance the my sharpness at work got basically impacted by that because um working out and running is a form of meditation is is a form of meditation so it's not meditation my partner meditates on a daily basis so I know what meditation means it doesn't work for me but it's a form of meditation and moment I mean you know when you get injured it's not something that you decide and you will slow down no it's like I pulled the you know we pulled the plug from the from from one day to another I had to stop running yeah the sharpness the the the Sleep everything was disrupt so you need to readapt Yes um so now the goal is to go back to where I was last year I did Singapore half marathon back to back with Hong Kong uh Singapore half I did 140 Hong Kong half I did 130 and you know the pace at one to do 130 1 hour 30 uh there are a lot of hills on the one in Hong Kong yeah it's yeah because you go in the tunnel you know you start on Nathan Road you go up North and then you take the highway down in the tunnel uh and then you you you run to Victoria Park I love the I love the route I I really love the the route because when you get out of the tunnel it's it's it's 7ish in the morning yes the sun is rising you have the light and you in the C you are in the CB and you have the skyline of Hong Kong I loved it I really loved it Singapore was Singapore was just hurting yeah yeah for sure just out curiosity because with some of my team members I've I've made them little wages you know like uh uh Isaac was our videographer when he was in national service his personal best for 2.4k was 855 so I said I said why don't you try and said that again and uh he said yeah but he didn't commit to it right and I just said because it's just sometimes you you said it and it's your own personal goals but I think if you if you strive for that as a team you work out have you guys done things because I know you guys have done the corporate marathons or half marathons together right yeah but that's look we had an event a few a few weeks ago with with bloomberry it's always good to bring you know the team together and and you go back to this collaboration and the team spirit uh we did a few corporate events um how many of how many of the guys from the bank will run on the we were 20 I mean last few weeks ago we were so we had teams um and we have we have I mean and and everyone you know it's it's it's you motivate you know you have this team spirit and the thing is you mix the department so I really love it it's brilliant I really love it now it I just want to get to know a little bit about you I mean I already know you very well but outside of Fitness what other Hobbies do you have that you really enjoy that you participate in look so so obviously you know you have the work in the fitness journey Etc and everything takes a lot of time um I love traveling and that goes with this diversity and we are we are we are blessed to be in Singapore uh we are able to discover the region um Dubai is one of your stopping points quite often right yeah yes but Dubai Dubai is you know it's kind of go against the multiculture but Dubai I I like I mean Dubai is a stopping point because when you start when you you have friends all over the world Dubai is the easy Gathering point of my Dubai I know we had this disc I always said Dubai for me is is the holiday SP because I can go there for a few days and I don't have to think about anything because my friend will take care of everything yeah you know the uh the the night in the desert and these kind of things so it's lovely it's you know it's pure holiday yeah now just came back from Japan uh I I really love the diversity we have in the region and and how you you feel like an alien in Japan it's like but with with an alien really an alien not the not the not you know not the movie really we go back to the to the Latin the Latin root of the world it's you don't belong there and it's it's extraordinary to still be able to discover and feel that you you really are a foreigner in in a country which is which which looks very familiar to you because I grew up in the '90s in Europe we were overwhelmed with Japanese culture and so you have this impression that you know and each time I go to Japan it's literally a slap slap in my face because it's another world but with with all due respect it's another world as in you need to understand the code you you need the humility yes to accept that you don't understand what's happening and that you have to look learn respect that's the habits are not the same and it's very it's it's very refreshing because we live in a GL I mean we live in a in in a global world we live in a city which is open so you know having to adapt uh to to a different culture is is is it's always hard I mean it's hard but it's very rewarding as well I I love it cuz I love the yin and yang the new and the old the Traditions there just I I have to say I mean my my favorite place to go to is the us because of the diversity there right um and there's so many things to do but in terms of outside of that for me Japan has so many different things and and uh I love it um I I want I'm curious about this I've never asked you this but in terms of reading what would you recommend to finance Professionals in terms of books or resources what are some of your go-tos I I'm oh you know I'm why why I'm laughing because okay so first of all and in full disclaimer I'm mean full disclaimer I don't read as much as I would like to and that's that's something I need to work on and I need you know as you need to be able to carve out time to do it and it's you know it's it's just a matter of will more than a matter of really finding the time because the time you always find it in a way in another yeah but why I'm laughing is because I've never I've really I've never read if I exclude you know the the I would say the academical readings you have to do when you are studying I've never read any books about Finance or the financial markets or the industry none you're not you're not alone in that none and and it's not by it's not it's not because I like I I mean I don't have the interest it's just you know you you you are basically sucked in on a daily basis uh and and again it's not a lack of humidity I don't pretend a far from that that I know everything really far from that but just you need to you need to you know I prefer to to learn when I read I prefer to to to learn something else and my reading are more you know I read biographies for example or and one and one book which is on my night stand uh and and sometime I just read one or two chapters um it's it's not very it's not very original but it's um it's Steve Jobs biography by Walter you and and you learn a lot again you have he was a very specific he was a brilliant mind he had a very particular way to manage these people um but the attention to details um the fact that you know nothing is left nothing is is left to to to to luck and try to try to control everything and there's something fascinating about Steve Jobs as far as I'm concerned so it's on another level yeah you know it's interesting because people think of him as an entrepreneur but he also learned to be an entrepreneur when when you know he end up becoming an employ of the business and the other thing I I I remember once watching an interview with him where he called H Packard when he was like 12 to get some products and he he got a job with them and I was just thinking imagine back then you know because people often think of of guys like that who are so brilliant that a lot of them are naturally introverts and what have you but what I found is in in business you have to engage you have to walk the floor you have to speak with people right um I just want to pick your brain a little bit it's a few rapid fire things what's the best piece of advice you've ever received H I will go back tot really anticipation is a key factor of success really because if you don't it's it's a matter of getting ready because if you're ready then you can adapt yeah I love that yeah I love that um one word to describe your leadership style benevolent okay if you could have dinner with any past and present historical figure famous person no one related to you who would it be uh Le two people Leu oh that's a great one Le and if you allow me I mean 10 seconds lianu because I think he's one of the most brilliant mine of the 20th century he was basically yes Singapore is a is a small country small economy so he is what is done do not necessarily resonate does not necessarily resonate as much as other big figure and I mean very important figures of the the 20th century but the Courage the Courage the vision the execution the execution to see it through I mean it's overwhelming and and you know and and and and I basically I have I have I mean from third world to first world is is not my go-to book because it's it's a thick it's heavy yeah but it's incredible when my mom cuz my mom was born in Singapore and you know when she tells me about it shows me some old pictures and you you look at that the Genesis of this country is crazy I have I I have good talking about it um one thing on your bucket list that you haven't done I know you've done a lot but what would it be I would I would I would love to to participate to Hawai Iron Man oh really this will need this will need I will need time it's not just you know I woke up and say that's that's I mean that's on the bucket list because it's well first of all it would basically force me to challenge myself first of all and and then the environment and when you look at the when you look at the scenary ETC and it's one of the hardest you you know I'm glad that you said take time because unfortunately I know two people that have died doing it and I think what happened was they went from being um extremely successful uh CEOs who very competitive but were not in shape they rushed the process and you know it takes time it does take time because you can you can complete one but you put your body under so much strain and things like things go wrong during the swims you know so that would be an amazing Endeavor where would you want to do it Hawaii or something Hawai would I mean Hawaii because it's that's the thing um unfortunately one of the guys I know died there that's that's that it that's that's Terri that's terrible and to your point it's like I mean I'm going back to Marathon can I run a marathon right now the answer is yes yeah but I have a very highly competitive mind so running the marathon is not the problem running the marathon in a time that would what is the time that you have your mind that I would basically consider as a decent time is another story so ion and this well sub three sub three jez sub three but you need so so then you need to work for it because you know the the the the piece I mean I told you about the piece of advice but something it's like something I I mean there's a lot of there there's a lot of rules or motto we all have in in mind Etc but you know it's like go hard or go home yeah and running uh running an I mean competing in an Iron Man if I had a chance to do it I'm not claiming that I can right now but if I if if you prepare you'll do it but then the question is do you want to perform and if you want to perform from then you have to get ready for it all of these Endeavors start in the mind though because you know I haven't you never met my son when he was uh very young but he was not an actual Sports person and I I kind of found that Sports person in him and now he's an amateur boxer and he he his got a tremendous physique but what I said to him is you have to set your goals on things and when I was training when I was younger one one of my dear friends is a British gymnast and you know when you're doing things next to them you you realize hey I'm useless but what happens is you you step into their drift it's like running behind someone very fast and your game just comes up another level and what I realized is you have to set your goal on things it's got to be incremental who's your favorite sports person of all time tough one Michael J yeah 100% good if I have to name one but you don't go sorry just going back to what you said about your son then you you find inspiration into people but this I mean I know you've been training him and you inspired him as well and and that's that's the beauty of that's the beauty of the the you know transmitting your passion transmitting your knowledge uh and and you know acting as a mentor for someone and and I've seen because I'm following you and we had a lot of discussion and and I know how your son has transformed and that's that's incredible and but the the trainer I mean the person the mentor whatever you call the person next to the to the performance is as important as the performer itself he or herself and you play a great role and at the end of The Today bottom line is you cannot achieve it if you're alone and I think you know we go back to collaboration Etc it's it's never it's never a lonely game no matter what you do you have you have to rely on on people you know it there's this saying that I live by how I do anything is how I do everything and uh I was I remember speaking to in fact um with my Blake I was having a chat to him when we were coming out of covid and I said there's a strength calculator that you can find online for your age and your weight but on every type of exercise from push-ups to pull-ups and I said to him my goal is to be in the top 1% of nearly all of the exercises um the only one I won't do is bench pressing because I had a very bad injury and I've actually fallen out of the 1% now you know on some of the stuff and it it like for my my birthday I try to do 100 pushup shops I got to 80 and I haven't cuz I had double surgery but it annoyed me and I've just thought I've I've got to get back to that 100 but as you get older it's a bit tougher I know the feeling you know just to wrap up what do you want to leave our listeners with in terms of career advice as people navigate their Journey because you know I speak to some people that say look you can't plan for your journey others meticulously plann for their career Journey but what what insights can you share from your personal experiences the well and and that's true you can you cannot plan but I think the the collab collaboration humility and you know the uh and respect at the end of the day if you if you have core values and you live by those core values and that's what I'm you know I'm lecturing I'm do I mean I'm doing some lectures Etc and that's what I'm trying to to to pass to the to the Next Generation the the hard skills are there but it's it's really about um making I mean it's really about integrating the fact that you are not alone you need to find you you need to find people you can rely on and really as you mentioned it's like a drift and understand and try to and be humble enough to accept that you don't know everything and you know the young the I don't want to fall into the stereotype and all the next generation is doing nonsense or they're different Etc I think we were the same when you were young and the the the generation before us were thinking the same about us but so you have this you have the impression that there's a there's a major Gap but I think what I'm trying is is really to have this humility to be open enough and to be patient as well yeah to be patient because it's the timing is important and and timing the market is not what we do and only a few people in in the in the market is able to time you know if we go back to investment it's not about necessarily timing is is to to to have the the to have a little bit of perspective and see the the see the the the the the big picture and the and the trends so be patient um and be perseverant of course but humility and I will I will basically conclude on really do not underestimate the power of collaboration never it's never about yourself alone because otherwise it's recipe for failure agreed well Demitri it's been an absolute pleasure is there anything else that you'd like to cover no I really thank you for for the time I really enjoyed the really enjoyed the moment it was a great discussion likewise thanks for sharing thank you very much Paul Cheers Cheers [Applause] [Music]

‍