#22 with Jia Hui. Ex SG Military; Inspiring Journey of Resilience & Growth

[Applause] [Music] hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with my dear friend swe who is currently an IT recruiter but most interestingly spent 5 years in the Army we talked about her fitness journey and her current passion which is in higho she's a highrock Ambassador solar Traveler surfing you name it she's done it we become great friends it's been a real pleasure and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did cheers hi Jo hi Paul hello how bad was my pronunciation of your name um I I think it's really good yeah don't what does it mean so um in Chinese my Chinese character means home okay so my parents kind of want me to be homely in that sense okay way like the the correct who in Chinese means like intelligent okay mean be homely and intelligent I love it I absolutely love it well welcome to the show yeah thank you for for inviting me no it's my pleasure you know I I admire a lot of what you've done and we're going to talk about that today for the audience members that might be new to you can you give a quick introduction as to who you are you know what you've done just a quick summmer of your career today wow okay um okay so I'm ja obviously uh so I currently a tech recruiter so I specialize in cyber security recruitment so previously I was actually from the Army uh for 5 years and then I transitioned out um was in military defense sales for a while and then I went to the bank and then did Tech sales and right now I'm a tech recruiter I love it what what a journey yeah now let's start at the beginning growing up you know you grew up you have a brother yep I do have older brother he's two years older than me and and you know your dad wasn't in the army or your brother wasn't in the Army in terms of career were they yeah so my my dad was actually a auditor okay and my brother he is currently a Management Consultant wow yeah for a type firm so growing up like were you very sporty like cuz cuz going into the army for anyone's a big thing but for a lady in particular in Singapore is very unusual right yeah so so what was your career your childhood like I mean my childhood okay so growing up I've never been like a very sporty kid really in fact I was overweight okay so up till maybe I was maybe 13 years old I was overweight like maybe I was like 170 and I was like um almost 90 kilos M yeah so I was really overweight are you 170 now you're taller than now yeah I'm 173 now yeah yeah you were 90 I was 90 kg wow yeah and um I I still did spots here and there but I wasn't like you know super into sports I think I was more into eating back then yeah so so I think it it pays to have older brother right because you know guys are the most forward people so he he kind of grew up you know kind of telling me that like hey you know like you you're a little overweight you have to watch your weight and did he say it like that or was he was he a little bit more direct like brothers are he he wasn't One D for sure okay but did but um but that did you feel that helped you kind of say look I want to take stock and start exercise and being a bit more healthy yeah so I think like that was really my push factor to kind of like you know really lose weight and really you know get into fitness so you know I think you know I I reached this kind of like vein stage in my life when I was like 13 years old and I was like I want to be like every other girl you know like slim and things like that so I kind of got into this whole Fitness routine of like skipping every day okay for an hour skip really yeah skipping skipping is no joke right Y correct so like skipping every day for an hour and then um doing like 30 sit-ups and 30 push-ups so that is really how I started my fitness journey amazing yeah and then can you kick his ass now just let's be honest you outlift him I have not tried hey you can outlift him though bet Maybe like that I like that that that Brotherly Love um and then and then so what after that when you got into high school did you singularly focus on certain sports or just tried a bit of everything yeah so um I would say when I was in high school I I did two main sports so the first one was netball okay because I'm tall and but uh so so one was net ball and the other one was shooting okay so I got into competitive shooting actually really wow yeah so I was in the National Youth team for about four years what pistols or uh I was doing air rifles oh really yeah is that what brought you into the army I'm just curious or nothing nothing related actually yes a little bit related okay so basically you would be a sniper you're in the right job by the way now that you're a head hunter it's a different type of sniper it's a different kind of sniper right yeah that's corelations I guess oh wow and how old did you do that for um in in shooting yeah uh I was there for about six years in total okay y until I retired because I had I because I listened to the Army yeah now talk about that what was that Journey like because where did you even get the idea and you know did your parents try and talk you out of it and dissuade you I think I'm someone who always loves Adventure so you know I kind of wanted to be given a platform where you know I can see how far I can go in that sense yeah so I kind of wanted to prove that you know females can actually do it too so that was why I eventually chose armor infantry as my as the formation of choice but how old we I'm just curious like how old how old was I when you started even thinking about it uh when I was 16 really yes so right after my old levels okay I was like okay I think I want to pursue a career in the military and how does it work when you enlist MH do they sit down and talk to you at length whether or not you want to do it and and and do you have doing this for a certain period of time yeah so um how it works in the Army is that they have a lot of Army Recruitment um events so actually I did not go for any of them really but I will highly encourage you too people who want to to to definitely explore that but what what I did was that I actually just went to the Army website and just registered my interest that like okay this is something that I want to do yeah so that was kind of how I did uh how I kind of got into the army and then they were actually interviews um by the by the formation uh sergeant majors okay of the different formations so you know they were actually you know ask you like what your motivations that why do you want to join this career and things like that so initially I thought that armor was just TS right yeah so back then um the formation sergeant major actually asked me so what do you know about armor so I said um uh I I think I think it's just thanks right yeah he said like um what what other vocations are you considering so I said guts okay yeah so he said have you ever considered armor infantry because you know it's a hybrid between infantry and armor so I felt like you know that was a very Dynamic that was a more Dynamic role yeah so which is why I was like I just looked at him and said okay let's go with that really and that was how there and then then then and it was how I just ended up in I'm infantry W and how old were you when you started your career with the um I started the my career in the Army when I was 19 amazing yeah really amazing so then cuz we'll come on to what you did later on with your studies um but like were you in that um section for the whole time that division or did you change and do different things um okay so I think in the Army the very interesting thing about being the Army right is that we have different tours so you know every um one to two years we were actually change to different tours so I did like obviously from basic military training being a recruit I went on to become a specialist Cadet okay after that I passed out and I and I not literally I'm glad you clarify that so I passed out and I went to the unit and served as a bigger Commander okay so I was kind of um I had about seven men under me back then and then I went on to become a plon sergeant that was when I had like 62 people under me wow when I was just like maybe 23 years old I think amazing yeah and then subsequently I became a Gary instructor yeah where I taught like you know National servicemen nsmen how to operate like the weapons on on this um vles I love it did you have any you know Kickback from the guys that you were managing because you're a lady or or were people pretty openminded uh I think definitely there's always there's always a sense of you know stereotype and like gender discrimination in a sense yeah I think usually you know people would uh I guess people would think that you know because you you chose a career you chose as a female you know you chose a career in the Army you kind of have to prove yourself to be better than um the the guys who did not choose to be here in that sense right yeah yeah so I F felt like you know every day was kind of like a challenge to me for sure of like you know proving myself you know constantly like trying to prove prove myself I think that was kind of fun but yeah you know you know the thing is that you're you're so bubbly and warm and engaging were you always like that throughout your time during the Army because you must have gone through some hard times and you can't put a smile on everything or or did you get through with that you know with that joyous you know happiness in your approach yeah okay so I think you know being being a sergeant in the Army right people always think that oh you know sergeants have to uphold like you know regimentation discipline you know you have to be fears and things like that yeah so back when um my my tour as a sergeant was going to begin right my Superior actually spoke to me so he said I think you shouldn't be smiling so much or or you shouldn't be you know um laughing and you know being happy all the time I think it's very hard to command respect from the guys so I told him that you know so I think everybody has their different ways of uh get getting gaining respect from people and like and things like that and I think that you know just being myself um I I think I think I will still be able to to do that and how did he react what required for good for you how what was his reaction though yeah so so so he said like you know he has his doubts but but he he will see how I how I eventually you know um was able to command like like 62 guys under me yeah yeah and you won them over worked worked out in the end Y correct so actually my my plon end up winning like the best uh number of ipd goals the best um standard obstacle cost uh passing rate wow best Marksman platoon as well amazing so so I feel like you know in leadership we don't have to always be like regimental don't have to always be you know like they the r with a iron fist right you can have fun with it yeah exactly you can have fun yeah I think that's very B yeah yeah I'm a big I'm a big uh sports fan and Usain bolts one of the guys that I just I think he's amazing and before that in the 100 meters you know all the men were walking around like this like they were caged lions and you know prize Fighters and then he came on stage and he was just smiling and laughing and waving at the crowd and um you know so he showed there was a different way it's a different approach and then so and when you were there did you ever think why did I make this choice you know or or did you fall in love with the whole process once you were in it I think there are definitely uh times of self-doubt right there definitely times where you know late at night I'll call my mom and I'll say like and I'll say things like hey I I I don't know why am I doing this or like or like this is really difficult and like you know there are times where you know definitely I am vulnerable I I definitely cry you know and things like that yeah but I think it's kind of about picking yourself up and kind of looking at things from different perspectives yeah yeah so I think I think being able to bounce back is very important yeah hugely important hugely important one great definition I love of of success is how you how high you bounce once you reach Rock Bottom yeah right so it's a big one I don't know I told you this I actually wanted to enlist in the Army when I grew up in the UK and um I told my mom and so my father was Irish yeah and there was a massive divide between Ireland and England and then had Northern Ireland and it was a big thing growing up and my mom pulled me to the side and she said look I love you very much but number one you're going to face a lot of racism in the English army um and you need to be aware of that and secondly this is a real thing I think your father's going to disown you because he was Irish and he wouldn't want me in the English army especially if I was sent to Northern Ireland and you know my mom's only ever spoken to me two or three times ever in my life where she was deadly serious about something and that was it but otherwise I you know that's why I was so intrigued to talk to you to see what that whole journey was like um and what were your what would you say your key takeaways were from during your time in the Army cuz I would imagine the success and the endurance that you had there it just spills over into so many different parts of your life yeah so I think the two main takeaways would definitely be number one having discipline and number two having greet and like tenacity in a sense yeah so I think you know the discipline I I feel like you know I always tell people right you can you can take me out the Army but I can't really take the Army out of me in that sense for sure yeah so until today like I still work out um at 5:30 a.m. almost every day so or if not if I can't make it I can't wake up in the morning if I can't wake up in the morning like if I had a long day at night um I would still work out in the evening yeah or during lunchtime so I think like you know being able to instill that discipline yourself to you know keep doing the things you want to do and keep you know um you know kind of like I guess um always improving yourself I think that's very important and I think you know having the G and the tenacity to you know um be in new environments and you know be able to adapt and Thrive I think that's that it's one thing that have learned because you know in the Army I think there's a lot of times where you deal with a lot of uncertainty or deal with a lot of change where you kind of have to learn how to maneuver yeah so I think those are the two main takeaways for me I mean it's amazing I I I'm Blown Away by that now the the other part of your journey which is so interesting is is you en listing to go to university and and following that dream of yours tell us about how that unfolded and when you did it yeah so uh I actually transitioned into my instructor tour after my sergeant tour so actually when I when I first went to the Army I had no intentions of furthering my studies at all I was like okay I'm just going to do this do this thing for the rest of my life in that sense right so uh my Dan Superior uh who also my mentor uh which is a lady U Warren Jennifer she actually encouraged me she said like T since you have time now um you know you can you don't have to stay in Camp anymore why not you just take up a parttime degree yeah so he said like you know it might help you in future brilliant so so how old how old were you at the time when she shared that with you I was 24 24 years old yeah okay great advice yeah exactly so I'm super thankful for that actually yeah so so what I did was that I went back home applied immediately I was like you know what I'm not going to think too much you're you're a spontaneous person you get you crack on and get things done exactly so I was like you know what I'm just going to try to apply because the the deadline was like a week in a week so I was like I'm going to try and if I get it I get it if I don't get it like you know I will explore other other opportunities or other ways of like you know getting a degree so what what happened was that in a month I actually got got going to University amazing yeah yeah and I was actually supposed to um fly up to the UK to study but because of you know covid and things like that I I I did manage too so I did distance learning in state okay what did the study I did management and marketing yeah yeah and then how did you find that you know cuz the other thing I realized is if you go to university when you're a little bit older yeah you probably appreciate it more and make more from it do you know what I mean cuz those that go straight into unit it's like you have to your parents tell going the flow in their that's right it's less meaningful but did you enjoy it I did I really did because uh I actually chose the major in marketing because I really enjoy like you know create being creative like the creative side of things I'm able to create things from scratch I feel like that and and kind of the understanding you know consumer behavior and understanding you know how people think or like you know how people I guess how people are are drawn to certain things or how how do you engage specific audiences I think that's something that really intrigues me so and how long was your course then your program my program was for about two two and a half years okay yeah and then tell us what happened after that cuz you you uh you did extremely well what grade did you get uh I I actually got a first class on this you should be very proud that's amazing yeah you know cuz when I when I speak to people and I ask them and anyone gets a first class honors degree that's that's real that that's tastes a lot of hard work and dedication were you proud of yourself uh yeah definitely cuz actually I never thought that I was very AC academically inclined to be honest yeah so I kind of wanted to give it my all this time and you know see where see where this takes me and surprisingly I I kind of like surprised myself as well yeah yeah but I think there's a lesson to be learned right when I talk to my kids I always think because they they struggle sometimes academically and I think we do develop differently sometimes we mature later but I think the underlying is you got to give it a a shot and you got to believe in s right exactly okay and then so then after you finished that when did you decide look maybe the Army is not right for me long long term was it was it after your degree um I think when I was doing my degree like like particularly when I was doing my marketing modules actually so you know I was creating a lot of marketing collaterals like a lot of a lot of proposals so I remember I did a James Bond one did you was it tell me James Bond 007 um uh Beauty line really I'm a big Bond yeah me too what's your favorite one movie uh the most recent one actually ah okay I actually I was watching skyall last night oh really I don't know why I really enjoy that movie perhaps more than the rest wow okay yeah but I grew I grew up when it was a different era you know I grew up with Roger Moore um but that was that was you like that last one yes I like last one I was I was gutted at the end I cried yeah cuz it was an end of an era right it was interesting that was his last movie yeah yeah so got so so you did A7 campaign yeah dead and I was like this is actually really fun like you know branding and things like that so I was like okay if I if I don't try it now then when right like like when am I going to leave if I if I don't do it when I'm younger when I don't pivot out early did you have someone like you Mentor that you could speak to to get that advice before you made that final decision I think I spoke to many people uh I spoke to my brother cuz my brother is a Management Consultant right so I wanted to pick his brains so he actually drew a whole road map for me he kind of Drew this map it's like okay this is Ja what what are her interests um where do you see yourself and things like that that's brilliant I yeah yeah exactly so he did that for me and then I spoke to my mentor as well so she actually encouraged me uh to you know explore options outside as well yeah yeah So eventually I I I made my own decision and I decided that you know I wanted to really try this out when I'm still young rather than you know wait for a couple of years I'm be well of it anymore yeah yeah I think it was a great choice um when you look back at your time during the Army what would you say were the key challenges that you faced during that time was it being a lady in the army or what what were they um I think it was definitely being a lady in the Army especially in the formation that I was in because uh in my in the Battalion right I was the only lady out of like 600ish 700 guys wow yeah so I think a lot of times I was either forgotten uh I was either forgotten that I was a female or or number two being kind of like in the Limelight of like having to prove myself yeah like you know for our annual um Fitness tests like ippt and like the standard obstacle cost I think like you know there's always a lot of eyes on on me that you know I should always like outdo the rest or like or like you know be a certain at a certain level that was like that was kind of like an expectation I feel yeah so I felt like yeah it's about kind of like like like previously right like kind of constantly having to prove yourself yeah yeah so I think that was one the key challenge yeah did you find I mean well the other thing is it's like I would imagine being in arm is a difficult thing anyway yeah but when when 600 of those guys let's pretend 90% of them are going to fancy you or be looking at your death T be a bit weird as well isn't it I I I you don't think about that I think I don't think too much about that really yeah did anyone did anyone ask you out when you were working the someone that was your and that worked for you that must have been weird no no but I I I I did have you know random random things hung outside my door sometimes oh really yeah so so there were like a few instances where I had like TW WGT hung outside my door oh really like chocolates hung outside my door as about give them a that SS funny um when when you think about you know in the future if you were to have kids yeah would you or you came into contact like with my children and they were saying look thinking of going into the army you know what would you say cuz because now you're learning that you can take your exposure there and bring it into corporate life right but what would your advice be for people contemplating doing it long term wow um I I think I think they definitely have to think about whether this is something they really want because I think in the Army uh I I wouldn't say Army is a job I would say it's a lifestyle yeah yeah right because you are practically staying in Camp like up till Friday you book out on Friday nights you book in on Sunday so it's that a lifestyle that you are comfortable with right uh and I think you know uh you have to also ask yourself like is this kind of is Fitness and like you know being constantly you know out out in the field you know being constantly surrounded by a lot of guys is this something that is is something that you are comfortable with as well I I think that's quite important to it's hugely important exactly I'm just curious in terms of the qualities and the skills that helped you get a first class honors degree do you think a lot of it was attributable to your time in in the Army because you learn that discipline there right yeah okay so uh I actually did my uh I actually did my degree in dami right so so uh I did it when I was a gallery instructor so actually a fun fact is that there were quite a few instances where I did my uh online classes at the range at the firing range firing range I did I wrote my essays when I was doing Duty uh over the weekends as well yeah so I would say uh it really requires a lot of discipline because you know you can easily just not attend classes right you can us SK classes but I had like an airport like on my right year while I'm like doing admin in in the range and like kind of trying to hear what my professor is saying well like you know um tanks are firing off so I think that that was really quite an experience but I think time management is very important and I kind of realized that you I really learned this that you know you can have everything at once you can have you me uh you can have you can have it all but not everything at once right so I think yeah so I think like what I really learned during that time was that you know I can only choose uh two things out of the tree my my career um army and like you know social life so I could only choose two right so I had to choose my career and and and and and um my studies right during that time so I think I had no social life back then like my weekends were just in in the library like doing research on my essays and things like that I get it I think there's something to be said for that because when I when I went to UNI I was working full-time studying full-time and I was uh boxing and it was it was difficult and you don't have much time for anything else exactly you know what I mean yeah um I'm just curious now that you've gone into sales and Tech recruitment how much of your degree is has helped you because I studied business management you know and the reality is I I don't get to use a lot of it um it's it you know there's some takeaways but what would you say is it very relevant uh I wouldn't say there are direct parallels right but I think like you know in marketing we learn consumer Behavior yeah and we learn how to you know um angle certain things certain presentations or certain like um products which are humans in in in recruitment uh in for very specific audience you know um so I think I think they are they are definitely some relevance but not direct relevance yeah but I think business degree is always very generic right yeah it is very generic and I feel like in sales we kind of learn as we go in that sense yeah yeah we talked about that so when so you leave the Army what's your first job so I left the Army my first job was a marketing internship okay yeah oh really yeah so I was left with my final semester in University so I thought to myself like hey I have no I have no experience in marketing like I I think I have to I want to gain some experience to see if you know marketing is for me so I actually applied for a role in in fmcg to do marketing okay yeah so I was a marketing intern for six months okay that's got to be weird after you know managing the this Legion of men and now being in the marketing in I know so was it weird it was really weird like the transition was was a little awkward so so um I was kind of surrounded by many female managers yeah very different environment right and then I was kind of doing a lot of influencer marketing branding and things like that so that was very very interesting because I think my manager was uh was I think I was blessed with a very good manager because she actually asked me like hey what what you want to explore what what you want to do which is pretty interesting so so I could really open my eyes to you know see uh a a really wi range of of like marketing stuff yeah yeah and then after that what did you do and then after that uh I graduated from University um and then I was kind of looking for roles but obviously you know in in the Singapore Market I think it's a bit hard to look uh to P into a different industry right yes especially after I come out from the Army I think that many employers don't really see direct relevance yeah and I find it such a shame because you know I had this conversation with someone today you have all these skills and you know with that work ethic you can transition them to nearly anything yeah exactly but yeah so that that's why I wanted to ask you so did you f feel that you didn't have that many options in some ways y weird isn't it yes definitely yeah so so I should applied to many roles like in marketing but never gotten a reply from any wow yeah so so I think that was when I started to be a little bit more active on LinkedIn and I posted like hey I've graduated I'm looking for a role and I was quite lucky because one of my ex- bosses in Army he actually transitioned out um to STD engineering okay yeah he was doing he was hitting the fans business okay so he actually asked me like do you want to join uh do you want to join me and like what your interest so I told him my interest is in um people and in marketing so I want to do something a bit more front facing and I also wanted to you know have that creative element of like you know designing things so he actually uh gave me a role U doing business development and marketing okay for the simulation business amazing so it was kind of like a half step you know like um one one foood is in the military one foood is in like corporate so I think that was like a really good nice nice what's interesting though the these people that have asked you these questions they firstly they have the foresight to at least ask you right and then see what they can build around what it is you want to do that's quite rare cuz nine times out of 10 people say this is what I'm hiring for and you either slot into that or you're not going to be considered for the role exactly yeah and how did you find that did you enjoy that it sounded like was more up your alley yeah exactly so I I I think I really enjoyed myself there I I felt like it was very good um ground right like it wasn't completely throwing myself the unknown and it's also a very comfortable space in that sense of like you know learning how to do like Business Development how to do sales in that sense and and marketing uh but I felt like you know I was uh I felt like I was a bit in the civilian Army right like I was still dealing with a lot of my ex bosses really uh my ex bosses my my ex comrades and things like that and I'm like hey you know I I I I left the Army for a reason right and and like why am I still surrounded by all these guys yeah so I felt like Okay um as much as I do enjoy this I I really wanted to you know transition and do something completely different and see how I I'm able to you know whether I'm able to drive there yeah which is why I eventually decided to leave what did you do after that yeah so right after that because you know that with that thought of one thing to throw myself in the Deep End right I applied to a bank yeah so I so I went to DBS and I I was a original product manager over there okay so I was managing the original corporate credit cards yeah so I was kind of involved in you know you know marketing involved in creating new credit cards uh involved in man uh managing the ideal application as well okay yeah so so I'll say it's a middle middle office kind of roow yeah where I get to still interview customers I get to still talk to stakeholders but uh I think being extrovert right I I felt like I was a little bit dying behind the laptop like I feel like oh my God you weren't out there doing that yeah I felt like okay this is a slow death so I I I I was like okay I I need a front-facing role yeah yeah but least you know you know in talking to you what I realize now is that your career in some ways it was it's upside down in the sense that um most people in the first few years have a few jobs and they they're working out what is it they want to do sometimes if you're lucky you work for a big organization they let you do a stint right and and the old days you do an apprenticeship so I think the reality is even though you did that five years in the Army the reality is the beginning of your corporate life is now y right and you're still trying to like you know learn what is that you like and I got fired for my first three jobs oh really yeah yeah but that was because um I don't suffer fools gladly and uh I'm quite opinionated oh I I think same for me as well yeah so it's but it but but I think that's okay you you have to find your fee and most people that I know have have you know cuz I I saw what you wrote on LinkedIn the other day and I thought that was a very sing message because you know we are all exploring we're all learning what it is that we like and what we don't like how on Earth did you fall into recruitment then because we discussed this before most people fall into recruitment Yeah by most I mean everyone you know what I mean so how how did this come about yeah so I think um couple of months back I was actually in Tech sales yeah I think uh I was in rep tree sales actually so so I think you know in the in the rep Tree World it's a it's a whole new world compared to like other forms of tech right so I think it was a little bit difficult for me to align with that so I I decided that okay I'm going to take a break I'm going to realign and you know ask myself like like like really look inwardly and ask myself you know what do I really want to do like I know that I want to do something that's fun facing I know that I I I love like you know talking to people gives me a lot of energy so definitely something FR facing sales BD right but I didn't know which industry so it was quite 70 PS actually like this this lady who has been following me on Instagram and Linkedin for a while reached out to me right on the day that I left my role oh really yeah and I did not post anything on LinkedIn so she reached out to me and she's like hey do you want to go for coffee with me yeah and I was like this is interesting yeah so so I and timing is everything right exactly yeah so I so I went for coffee with her and she's like have you ever explored recruitment like have you ever considered career Recruitment and interestingly back then when I was deciding between my tech sales role I was actually deciding between Tech sales and Tech recruitment yeah but I went with tech sales yeah yeah so I told her like I have actually considered recruitment but yeah so so actually she she um referred me to her boss W ex- boss yeah so interesting yeah so that was kind of how I found into the Recruitment and I think cyber security and defense kind of um although they are two very different domains right I feel like they're kind of similar in a way yeah right because you know it's all about defense it's all about you know security and things like that yeah it's the same principle at heart right exactly so you know like red team blue team it feels a bit like a TBL talkop exercise you know yeah so so so I like to kind of use the analogy with my customers a lot and my clients a lot yeah yeah it's a good it's a good one do I mean talking about being an extrovert I just find it so interesting cuz you know I'm an introvert by Nature most people won't believe that yeah and we've talked about this off camera um but you know based on the people that you work with would you say that in recruitment the majority are extroverts or is it real balance H based on your observations where my observations I think generally okay there's a term for this um functional extroverts right yeah so I think I think I think definitely there's definitely a mix of people who are introverted extroverted yeah I think generally you know what people portray is definitely uh you have to be extroverted in this in this industry right yeah so I think even if you are introverted I think you you're functionally extroverted when it comes to your work right and you have to embrace it exactly you know um but what have you learned about your time in recruitment you know what are the key takeaways that you've learned because I think externally if people haven't done recruitment they've got an idea of what it is and um on Facebook years ago there was a there was a picture and it was like um you know hurting cats you know so that's one image right yeah cuz that's really what it's like because it's like you can't how do you grab a cat when a cats are running it's impossible cuz you know if you ask people in recruitment outside of recruitment I think you're making loads of money you know you're doing deals all day long and that's not the reality right there's a lot of work that goes into it um but yeah but now having been recruitment for a bit you know what are your observations yeah so I think you know um people from um people who are not from recruitment would think that recruitment is easy you know it's just about finding the perfect fit for for certain role right like you just feel uh you just kind of like uh fulfill a fulfill a job and and like you know place a candidate and and you know get get the money out of it and things like that but I think recruitment is way more complex than that for sure yeah like I I I think I see recruitment as kind of a bit like a zigar puzzle right yes yeah so so you know it's kind of about finding that finding a fit but but the thing is that it's not always going to be a good fit it's not always going to be a perfect fit at first try yeah so it's about you know balancing your client balancing your candidate balancing Talent Acquisitions you know everyone has a different agenda everyone has different motivations different ones yes especially when it comes to you know clients they they have like 101 things that they want in the candidate right yeah but it's kind of about finding it's kind of like um finding a perfect boyfriend or perfect partner yeah but you know you don't you know you're never going to find a perfect partner right so there has to be like why you're non-negotiables why you're negotiables like you know I love it yeah and things like that so I think it's about managing everyone's agenda yeah so I think this is something that a lot of people don't see that happens behind the scene right yeah for sure yeah and I would imagine your time in the Army where you see people under real distress pressure it's probably given you an ability to read people a lot better because you've seen people at their best and the worst yeah you know um now one of the things I I about you is that you've pursued your your hobbies and your dreams outside of of work quite extensively right so one of the things you tell me well tell the audience you know you went to Barley to learn how to surf you done scuba diving it was barley right was it y it was Bary tell me a little bit about you know what you did there cuz I I really admire that about you okay so um I I started solo traveling couple of years back so uh right after covid covid you know the the covid Restriction lifted right I was like okay I'm booking myself a trip yeah I'm going to Bali and I actually immediately went to to Google right like self camps okay uh and I booked a a surf cam for a week and I told my really good friend I said like hey I'm going to surf for a week he looked at me de in the eye and said like I've never seen you swim yeah he's like are you sure you can swim and I was like I can't you can't swim right yeah I can't yeah but I was like you know what I'm just going there and and like I know that I was survive like I I know that like no matter what I'll make it out there I love it I love it yeah and and he kind of like forced me to to take up some swimming lessons with him before before I went to Bali I think that's a good idea yeah which is good idea good friend right there so so I actually learn how to swim a little bit to save my life okay and then I went to Bali did surfing and did diving actually did diving during covid actually okay yeah because you know we couldn't travel not right so I was like okay I want to pick up a new skill and I can I can dive in um pahan too so I was like let's do it amazing yeah and I didn't know how to swim back then as well so you're mad you're absolutely mad you should want to learn how to swim first and then do all of it can you swim now yes I can yeah and I do swim leisurely now yeah okay that's beautiful yeah and you know when you did all of this when you speak to some of your friends in particular your female friends cuz a lot of people male or female don't do solo travel people do sometimes traveling solo for work and I've always been a massive believer in it but you you you find yourself right and in it forces you to speak with people yeah right but what what did you find in in your time solo traveling I think the good thing about solo traveling is that you spend a lot of time yourself right yeah so it allows you to be very introspective I guess because you know when you're in the city here in Singapore I feel like many of times we are quite over stimulated right there so many things happening so many people talking to you so many people wanting a wanting a piece of your time time and things like that that you don't really have time to you know sit back and think about you know like why am I doing certain things like what's the motivations within certain things I'm doing like um is this what I really want to do is this am I really pursuing my passions am I really living for me right yeah yeah so I think solo traveling gives me that space to really think about you know um what do I want to do you know and also I think it allows me to be comfortable with being by myself right I think many people struggle with sitting alone with eating alone and I I have perfectly like no trouble with it because I feel like you know it gives me that space to you know really be introspective think about think about things process my thoughts yeah it's huge it's massive I like that message it's it's good I always say to people that's something know with Isaac I was saying to him and when he first came to work with me he was single at the time and I said why don't you do a solo trip and he' never done one and I had recently come back from a 10-day biking trip in uh uh Vietnam and I did north to south on a bik yeah no no I was meant to go on that I did that really yeah there was a typhoon I couldn't do it how was that earlier this year amazing really what time of year did you go sorry I did it in fat fat much so that's so that's what I was meant to do so I I flew into Hanoi and I was meant to go up and then there was a typhoon oh no so then I ended up you know going all the way down south but did you do it four or five days there I did it five days yeah yeah I didn't it with a group okay yeah so we kind of like stayed in like this hom stay place every night yeah it was really fun it looks amazing yeah so that's on my bucket list you should it's really fun yeah yeah um I don't want to you maybe I would do it with a friend or my son or something like that um CU cuz that that I kind of just want to take in cuz the the the views were stunning right the view is stunning yeah and I just found doing that 10day trip cuz I went all the way down uh to nimin to dang hoan all on bike and um you know you just you you're much more appreciative of things and because you know I run a business I've got three kids of course I miss the family but I find that I need that reset Y and and the other thing is I don't know if you can speak to this but I don't think I was born in the right era I don't think this was meant to be when I was born right I think I should have been out there you know as a warrior you know running crazy doing unusual things um and and uh maybe living that nomadic lifestyle so for me doing these trips it kind of it it it it satisfies that part of what I want to do oh I I feel like that's totally relatable for me as well yeah yeah yeah actually there's a peri of my life where I considered becoming a digital Norman really yes well yeah it's but it's amazing right it's an amazing journey now one of the things I wanted to touch upon is I've got two daughters 15 and n and I realize like my my 15-year-old's Italia she's a fantastic athlete um but I'm conscious that now in the world is social media there's this stereotype of what a woman should look like and it's gradually changing right and I want to talk about your high rocks journey and and the one thing I had to chat with Talia was she was always you know extremely muscular wiry in a beautiful way very aesthetic um like like probably what a hep aete would be when she was younger and I'm I'm conscious that she may be worried that if she does too much training she'll get too muscular I said well first it's not that easy to put muscles on exact you know especially for ladies um but did you feel any pressure because I think that people like you are helping reshape the idea of what a woman should look like and how a woman can really approach life and and Sports and Fitness yeah so I I think definitely when I was younger you know I always I was quite consumed by the idea that that you know um beauty or or or looking good is only onedimensional you know like everyone um back in my back back back in my days like you know when I was a teenager like being slim or like being slender means means um you're beautiful right yeah yeah but I think like as I as I G grew up and as I you know did more Sports and things like that I kind of started to really rewire and reframe my idea of what beauty means beautiful yeah so so I feel like my idea of beauty comes from like you know Health yes empowerment uh and really just feeling strong from from within right yeah so I think that that for me kind of helped to reshape and you know kind of help me to redefine my own definition of what beauty means yeah and for me Beauty means really strength and I think like you know strength is not just physical right but it's kind of like through all this physical um activities you kind of build this like greit or or this mental resilience in you yeah so I feel like this is what um helped me to like kind of reshape my my idea of what beauty is over the years because you know obviously growing up I've heard things like oh you know you have really broad shoulders you you you are more muscular than guys and things like that did it annoy you when you first heard it or I I think when I when I first heard it I felt a little bit self-conscious yeah but I think like over time um as I as I you know trained and everything I I felt like you know honestly this these voices don't really matter right yeah good feel yeah because I feel like at the end of the day you define you right and I love it you define you you do what you want to do and honestly like I think in all shapes and forms like everyone's just beautiful in their own ways right yeah yeah yeah it it is very interesting cuz I think um and if you look at and the other thing is with athletes there's so many different types of athletes if you look at Serena Williams versus her sister Venus yeah you know their sisters but they look completely different yeah and Serena is just an absolute Powerhouse you know and she's one of the athletes that I admire most who who are some of your favorite athletes that you admire male and female my favorite athlete um I would say CrossFit athletes yeah so so I really like this um lady wait I can't remember don't worry we'll come yeah so I like this lady but uh I like her because of her mental resilience because she actually T her T her T her arm okay yeah but she got back comp yes doing competition um but she got back in the next season to compete again wow yeah so so I really like that you know mental G and mental resilience yeah yeah now when you you're you're a h Rock Ambassador yeah what does that mean and how did you start to do that okay so um I actually have always been doing like you know functional fitness like hit so I've I always trade at this this gym into a so um the owner of the gym is actually uh is actually Singapore's country manager for high rocks okay yeah so he actually follows me on Instagram so he he figured that you know since I've always been posting sharing content uh about Fitness Sports training up for high rocks he felt like you know I I would be a good fit to be a high Ro Ambassador for sure yeah yeah so I think for for HKS Ambassador like what it really entails is is really engaging the community you know encouraging people to you know participate in highrock um definitely participating in in the High Rock races as well so I have participated in two high Rox baces so far and you got one in Hong Kong coming up and I'm doing one in Hong Kong and I 10 my my ones next year already brilliant so I might be doing Houston next year as well wow yeah but that that that's brilliant because then you have something to look forward to ban your trips around it yeah um what's the difference for those that don't know between High Rock and Crossfit okay so I feel like H Rox is definitely definitely has a lower uh barrier of Entry because I wouldn't say it's as technical compared to CrossFit right because in CrossFit there's like you know weightlifting and weightlifting can be very technical so you don't get injured right yeah for sure yeah but I think for H Ro it's a lot more um accessible to the messes right because I think a lot of the exercises in between are pretty functional like functional fitness so you do like burp bees you do lungers you do farmers carry you know kind of like shopping your shopping bags in that sense yeah exactly yeah and things like that like showing more balls yeah so I feel like these are uh H Ro as a spot is a lot more accessible to to to a to a larger group of people yeah yeah now what advice could you give to to young girls like young teenagers that want to work out but they're worried they're going to get too bulky or muscular H for females yeah for ladies okay I think I I think that uh I think that is a common misconception right that that like you know if you do if you do a lot of strength training you you get balky get muscular yeah but I feel that you know as a female who has been doing strength training for years I I'm not I'm not ripped right I'm not like buff or muscular yeah but you can definitely say think that I'm like that I look kind of strong right yeah so so I think uh definitely you won't uh my my advice is that you definitely won't get uh balky or Buffs by by doing strength training I think cuz a lot of ladies they or young girls they worry they're going to look too masculine right yeah exactly but but that's not necessarily yeah exactly I think unless you really consume like calories in Surplus you really um focus on you know bodybuilding right and like eating a lot of calories and and things like that or lifting extremely heavy weights yes I think only then you will like really look very bulky yeah but I think if you're doing like you know very general strength training I I don't think you yeah exctly well the other interesting thing is I look at how training has evolved massively in the last 10 15 years in the old days women weren't lifting weights at all now everyone is lifting weights right and then it's a it's a game changer the only thing I found is that doing conventional lifts like I I tore my PEC and my shoulder uh bench pressing and um and the only thing I say is you know as you get older don't lift with the Neo you know technique is everything exctly you you you know I don't know about you but like I'm I'm phenomenally competitive with myself right so I always am measuring the clock or the distance or the weight and um you know as you get older especially cuz I I did this I was I was bench pressing it was it was 140 kg it was 4:00 in the afternoon and I was rushing I was thinking about work and my personal trainer Mike who's an amazing guy said to me look you're you're you're it's too heavy you don't need to do this I said Mike you're not an athlete I'm an athlete you know this is let and I said we're going we're going we're doing this and um yeah I hurt myself and then that was it and it was it was a pretty bad injury so my Peet was torn off my bone you know the tendon connecting and the shoulders just blasted out so that's the only thing I say to people you don't need to do things that are silly right because injuries we all get them but they they set you back a long time exactly so I feel like you know Fitness is longevity right it's about longevity 100% yeah so sometimes you know when my when my boyfriend my partner wants to like live really heavy weights right yeah and then he says like oh you're not pushing yourself hard enough because because you're not think like like s sa this looks easy for you so I said like you know sometimes it's not about going at 101% right yeah sometimes it's about um saving some and like you know living it for race day in that sense right 100% yeah because you can't you can't be constantly going at 100 101% 110% like it will create like this mental fatigue yeah yeah so so I feel like you know sometimes when you're training it's okay to you know live live maybe lighter lighter weights but maybe more reps yeah right yeah so talk a little bit about your program do you do you building cardio do you have to watch your diet carefully now yeah so I would say I'm I'm pretty much doing hybrid training right now okay so I do CrossFit about 5 days a week I run I run long distance maybe three times a week what is long distance um 10 to 15 click wow yeah because I'm I'm running the standard chat half marathon as well you savage so we're doing 10 to 15 click can you run I mean I can't run that I'd have to walk walk run walk walk run you're running the whole thing yeah running the whole thing amazing yeah yeah so I do that usually after work or before work so I run the Marina Bay Area yeah and I'll go back to office shower and then start start my day yeah brilliant and then what about your diet are you controlling that are you being very careful by your calorie intake or okay I I I think that there was a time where I was really counting like you know all my macros and and things like I even have an app you know where where I actually typ in everything I'm eating yeah but I think over time I just realized that it's all about balance right all about balance it's all about balance so so I think right now I try to eat as CLE as possible I try to make like good decisions yes try to cut out as much sugar as I can uh and try to avoid fight food as much as I can yeah yeah so I think it's important to you know limit your VI right yeah but the first time we met I was the thing is you can you notice we had wine and you're like you know and I said I'm going to get another glass and exactly but I Balan it out right yeah exactly so all about balance right yeah at the end of the day and the other thing is cuz cuz again you and I have many things in common but like I worked out at half five this morning and um you know how do you find the discipline to do it cuz a lot of people think that it's it's not possible but I'm just curious like how do you where does your goal start is it like you're so self-disciplined or have you said to yourself I'm going to do this or is it now become routine for you yeah I think I think it's about you know um I think it's about having small winds every day for me yeah so you know when when the clock kind of rings at at 5:30 know sometimes there are days that I'm just like oh do I really want to do this like you know like I could be very tired sometimes but I'll just tell myself like hey like I I've committed this myself like let's let's go up and and get it done and I think what I done what what I've done over the years is also so be as ready as I can so like the night before before I sleep I'll be already wearing my attire to run you already to yeah yeah exactly so I have no excuse right all I have to do is throw out a bit you're a beast and go so so I think that that helps me like getting prepared for it like getting prepared for it and so you know after after you run after you're done with it like you just feel like okay I've accomplished something for the day you do you're lined up exctly yeah so you're like I've accomplished something for the day I had a small win so I'm ready to face like the day do you know will make you laugh right I've been I've been getting up a little bit earlier because I'm 47 now and what happens is so this morning I got up 5:35 and I was lying in bed and I was contemplating not doing it yeah and I was talking to my inner wimp and I was saying come on and then so I started counting backwards from 100s and I thought by the time I get to 50 I'm going to sit up right so I got I got I got to 50 and I sat up and then I I went all the way to 1 and I was locked in and um I the thing is people think this is crazy I I have to have a shower cuz it it forces me to wake up MH quick shower bit of cold water brush my teeth went down started working out but this is the thing cuz I'm 47 now I then have to lie down for 10 or 15 minutes if you pushed yourself hard right especially if I go on the aerodine to finish I've got to just need 15 20 minutes just to recover okay you know it's because in the past it's like I'm okay I'm ready to rock and roll go and shower shave get ready for the day ahead but I literally need 15 minutes to die you know just you don't you're young right so you don't have that at the moment um let's talk a little bit about as you see your career embarking I'm curious like long term you know cuz I've I've got I've got a guess I think you're going to go into business on your own in some shape of capacity just remember I said that but but do you think about things like that in the future yeah so I think I've always I think my my end goal has always been been that actually it yeah I always wanted to be an entrepreneur actually I think I think in some shape or form like somehow some some time like I think I will pretty much do my own thing yeah yeah yeah that's brilliant you got to cuz sometimes people ask me what my goals were when I was younger and I did have a lot but because I came from a very poor family and I was just thinking about how do I earn enough money this week so we could pay the more give my mom and dad the money to pay the mortgage I wasn't really thinking Beyond um but I found a piece of paper that I wrote when I was 18 and so these were my goals yeah um I I wanted to get married and have my first child before I was 30 I think I wanted children when I was young because cuz I didn't want my kids too old you know look at my dad and you know he was too old and then I wanted to run my own company before I was 30 I wanted to become a millionaire before I was 30 and had this this list of things right and then some of the lists I didn't you I wanted to become a movie star that you know it's not too late by the way I didn't do it before I was 30 but but it's interesting because sometimes we forget what our dreams are exactly right we get so caught up in life so so you've always thought about that um what other sports do you want to try out that you haven't done so far what other sports do I want to try out interesting pedal really yeah pedal and ten years I think okay that's next on the list yeah exactly yeah so I've been I've been watching uh brick point on Netflix and I'm very inspired to to pick up pick up I want to do a rapid fire bunch of questions what's your favorite adventure sports skydiving surfing or scuba diving surfing unequivocally sorry unequivocally that's just I feel like you know in surfing it's kind of like life right in that sense where you kind of like you have to roll with you you have to roll with it in the sense sometimes you know you might greet the waves right and and like you know be able to serve well but sometimes you might not be you might not see the waves like coming in the right direction and you write the wrong wave and like you know you kind of get a washing machine in that sense and then you kind have to get out the of the washing machine and pedal back so I feel like sing is a bit like life right it's about going going through the fs and flows of Life yeah yeah navigating through life so I I I feel like it's surfing for me I love that and actually when when you think about it certain Sports will bring you to different locations yeah um that tend to be very beautiful so I I don't play golf I don't really see the appeal of it other than you're in a beautiful location right so I like that um if you could only visit one country next year that you've never been to what would be on the top of your list um I would say the US actually okay yeah it's an amazing Place yeah because I think I think they have you know have everything everything yeah they have skiing they have love the US US would love you your personality your zest for Life uh cuz what I found growing up in England it's it's a lot more conservative in the US they love people that strive to be successful they love winners right and it's okay to have an opinion and go out and want to chase things so I think you'd absolutely love that what's your go-to workout in the gym go-to going in the gym H I would say I would say a CrossFit session okay yeah okay um do you know some of your personal best for your lifts yep I do give a share what was your best dead lift 10 reps 120 kg okay for one rep yeah for one rep and for 10 reps do you know 10 reps I think it's 100 okay wow 100 on 9 something I think I think it's 100 yeah really good I love that okay cuz I always ask people people don't know their their personal bests I said they're either been very humble or they're really crap you know it's okay there's an app called what up what up okay yeah so you can actually key in like your personal best so every time you key in like something new right they'll tell you whether you have achieved your next personal best or not oh really yeah so interesting I think I know I know my times my lifts my anything going back like I could tell you at 14 16 18 what I was running what I was lifting do you know what I mean because I think it's inculcated yeah I think there both right I think so yeah so you your laugh when I um this is a funny story about recruitment so before I said up my own company I work for another company yeah and um I joined them as a consultant I was the youngest person to join the company and I said to the finance manager can you print off every company record right uh so for example the the fastest deal the smallest deal the most number of candidates placed in the team um to the slowest deal so on and so forth and I printed them all off and I got them laminated I stuck them on the wall and I said to my boss um when I've eviscerated all of these company personal records will you make me the GM and he said sure but you know it's going to take you a year I said well exclude the slowest deal and he started laughing he just said you know you're you're a bit cocky and I said but I I want a goal right and then I'll set my own goals after cuz that's what it is right so it's it's like the 4minute mile when that was brok BR the first time you know I think like 15 men beat it that time subsequently thereafter so I think that helps and then you know as an entrepreneur someone that works for himself you you have to hold yourself to to that standard that's it so so so for me sometimes my it's not about money or the amount of Revenue it's about well you know that's the level that I'm at um and and for me what I Works a little bit different because when a client gives us a mandate we want to fill the Mandate because we we've said we would yeah but also we want to strategically place the right person and um you know but I always always have personal best they're a big one um one things that you always pack that's a little bit unusual when you're solo traveling wow um unusual you're going to say your surfboard do you bring that or you rent it when you're over there actually I actually serve at I always I okay so I always serve at this one place okay uh is in changu so so I actually put it in my friends now he's become a friend so I put it I put it in his warong okay yeah yeah so so whenever I'm there I just think my B and stuff okay so you can't so you can't include that anything else that you could name that you travel with I would say for me it would be okay it's not unusual but I'll say a very study portable charger yeah because you know you don't want to have a date phone and be shed alone right 100% you've got to have a go-to what's your favorite cheat meal after a competition in a fness competition okay so I do this every single Saturday without fil go on to the go on tell me yeah to to the to the point where like the staff already know my order yeah and the and one of the stuff is actually my men um back when I in the Army oh really yeah so it's actually a peanut butter jelly muffin really yes and that's your go-to that's my go-to really yes why you just you like the taste it gives you a bit of enery I just like peanut butter I I think I have taste buts of of a kid yeah yeah and and also like a really good protein smoothie just a couple of shops down from from where I buy the peanut butter muffin it but I think a lot of people think peanut butter is protein cuz I know people but it's not you know it's not full proteinin but it's it's it's naughty but nice do you know what I mean um if you had the opportunity to be a professional athlete doing any one sport or forget money that you're making from it what sport would that be H I think it'll be I think it would be CrossFit yeah yeah really yeah yeah they are the only thing with Crossfit that scares me is that lifting heavy weights repeatedly and you get tired it's a recipe for injury exactly but I I really admire those athletes but I think what we're seeing is some of the very best crossfitters they've got a weightlifting background yeah you know what I mean you know so it's uh it's very interesting well look it's been an absolute pleasure is there anything else you want to cover no not F that no it's been such a great J and you're still young you're still at the beginning of your journey exactly so we got to watch this space and um I look forward to another glass of wine with you soon yeah same here brilliant thanks for taking the time thank you cheers cheers [Applause] [Music]

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