#17 with Will Probert. Entrepeneurialism Inside Hong Kong's Business World

[Applause] [Music] hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with a dear friend of mine Mr William Probert William is the co-founder of zip limited they are a corporate secretarial and business formation company here in Hong Kong also with an office in Singapore it was a great chat we learned about his entrepreneur oral journey and for those people that are interested to set up a business here in Hong Kong or in Singapore great Insight it was an absolute pleasure and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did Cheers will it's fantastic to see you buddy how are you mate I'm very good very happy to be here man you know for the audience members that I know we've known each other since 2002 before before I met my misses when did you start dating your misses uh yeah after that actually know it's a lot I've been I've been with her for 3 years by then yeah she was 22 at the time you should know to the date to the to the month to the hour do you know what I mean yeah um now for the audience members that don't know you can just introduce yourself and what you're doing and tell us a little bit about your setup at the moment sure um my name is B Probert uh born in the UK but grew up in Hong Kong worked in the BBI for a little while um been back in Hong Kong since 1999 worked in a number of different Industries recruitment Outsourcing sort of offshore and fiduciary and now running a corporate services business in Hong Kong called zip beautiful so what I'm going to do is I'm going to delve in and I want to talk about your entrepreneurial journey and really talk about Hong Kong which you know I've always been in love with yeah um so to start with the beginning so talk about where you grew up and you know how you moved to the BVI um well I guess yeah initially came out to Hong Kong as a kid in the 70s um our man was an engineer so you know we moved out as a family with him um school here which was great University back in the UK um came back to Hong Kong in 97 for the Handover and so you know saw that which was a you know very you know important period in Hong Kong's history obviously and it was great to be part of that kind of on the ground in real time um and then at that time I didn't really know what I wanted to do I sort of about a bit of a Lucen um and a made of my old mans who was working in the BBI at the time um said you know what's will up to your man's like well he's eating my food and being a waste of space you want to come to the BBI and you know work for my trust company so you know nothing else going on I said sure let's do it it was initially supposed to be a six-month uh contract it was extended a couple of times so I was there almost a year and a half in the end and yeah started off in the corporate services and and fiduciary industry I think I'm must to spoil you imagine that as a first gee it was yeah it was my first proper job was yeah working at the time I was more in the kind of back office working for the financial controller yeah I was his assistant basically um you know it's a very acquisitive industry and you know a couple of businesses have been bought and merged together at that time and so uh my boss was trying to sort of you know put the systems in place and I was just you know a glorified uh office boy really but it was great it was introduction into that world and it was nice being a sort of you know a real expat right for a bit as opposed to an expert right did you did you do a lot of traveling in the in the region when you were there where did you go to um mostly around other islands in the Caribbean so there was one rugby team one football team you know one cricket team sort of thing so the rugby team toured around some of the islands in the Caribbean went to the states a couple of times which was great where did you go to Caribbean um St Martin uh to play rugby and for a couple of stnags Antiga to watch cricket um Barbados for rugby Dominican Republic for rugby um so yeah sort of here and there it was great yes you know I've got so much in common because I spent a lot of time in the Caribbean when I was about 1718 mainly in trinad Tobago Grenada I haven't been to all of the places yeah I did get down to it's amazing but trinad it's it's a great place but it's a it's a scary place there's a lot of violence you know it's it's not a safe place but it's a beautiful place um so then after that you then came back to Hong Kong yeah so the Hong Kong office and the BVI office were obviously having a lot of um were communicating all the time Hong Kong was a massive sales office at that time particularly selling BBI companies to to Taiwan to the Taiwanese who were investing heavily in China at that time and they obviously couldn't invest directly so we were was selling I would say 150 companies a month probably back then wow um and so I came back to Hong Kong to you know because this was sort of pre- cloud right this was in the late 90s so you know of course we had systems and the internet they didn't necessarily talk to each other you had two databases with different information so I was trying to you know brinch the Gap and fight the fight for the BBI in Hong Kong and and then you know do the same having had hands-on experience there I was kind of a useful you know facilitator and fixer yeah um and that that was uh it was an interesting time but when I got back it was right in the middle of actually towards the end of the doom boom yeah and I had a couple of friends in recruitment who were absolutely raking in cash Smash and I was sort of not earning that much at the time really enjoying what I was doing but you know I was looking at kind of move more into the sales and BD side when I got back to Hong Kong so my first business trip was to Taiwan you know to I didn't speak manderin so I started learning um and yeah it was interesting so I saw a lot of friends in I thought right they can if they can do it I can do it you know it so what desk were you sat on what was your first desk uh it was kind of quite generalist it was at a small you know quite aggressive head hunting shop okay so um you did a bit over everything bat phone fake names all of the the bad old the good old bad old days of recruitment man I'll tell you what using pseudonyms was something that most people just couldn't handle the yeah so just you know old school research you know we had one computer Compu at that time that had the internet on it you had to book time on the internet to research the companies try and find candidates yeah um and and so that was great you know playing you know just phoning people up call calling trying to get names trying to get numbers it was sort of fun but after six months I was like look this is really fun but I I suspect not the most ethical yeah way to to to do business so I only only stayed there for six months and after that uh moved to TMP okay uh which is now Hudson hson right did you do HR is that the Desu special yes yes started HR so when I was at um the company before that I sort of did a few HR placements okay um just because that's what fell you know I was doing fmcg so I was kind of doing sector recruitment uh just happened to be a few HR roles so when I joined TMP it was to be a specialist HR recruiter so was that your Segway to Black Mountain yeah how did that come about I never asked you that funny enough yeah so Black Mountain were a client of mine same with me well yeah so they were looking to hire obviously HR staff and it was um really small in those days so you remember Betty yes so black Mountain's first HR hire yes in Hong Kong yeah um specifically to be an HR specialist helped hire Betty um and a role came through for a sales guy for Black Mountain um and at that time I actually really enjoying recruitment it was good Al at the same time we'd gone through after getting into recruitment we went through uh the end of the doom boom then we had 9/11 then we had SARS so was already after only a few years a little bit battered and brewed and your income's quite variable right and there's not a lot when the economy crashes there's not much you can do about it I was I was Bor commission only right and then the worst thing is I had Bild money had come in and I still didn't get paid you know scary times well yeah exactly so I was sort of thinking actually of in Industry I was quite interested in HR at the time having You Know spoken to by that time hundreds of HR professionals yeah um and so when the role came in for Black Mountain I I said why don't we uh gra out for lunch and discuss the role did you go straight in you didn't work on it you actually you put yourself on straight away what's the statute invitations we passed them but okay yeah I put myself forward let's yeah I put myself forward and um when did you start with them in 02 right three 03 oh did you so I I started on the third of March 03 yeah I think I think you were there just before me oh really Singapore thought you'd already started cuz it was it was about that same time yeah uh yeah it was around it was around 03 I can't remember exactly the month but we were very similar you and I were both quite new at the same time I think you know that the thing what I loved about our relationship and friendship and and the same with tamel was um I've worked in a lot of firms and I've since seen a lot of firms we have two counterparts that are always in competition and the bosses kind of encouraged that and I've never understood that because I've always subscribed to a rising tide raises old chips and we just got along from day one we spoke every day on the phone and it was you know and Tanny was so helpful but that looking back that was quite rare you know you don't see that very often yeah I agree although you know like you I was used to being one of many salese in a kind of not that it was the trading flaw but that kind of sales environment you know there's a lot of banter there's a lot of energy and then you and I being the sole salespeople in quiet offices you know if I didn't talk to you I'd have gone crazy because you know you need that bit of well I was s on my own for about a year and a half literally on my own in the office which was actually I kind of liked it it was a nice office I was in the penthouse at sake but but um it wasn't that glamorous so I realized there's nowhere I can work on my own I need that social interaction I'm the same yeah and what what was interesting was I remember um the first time I physically met you you probably won't remember because I was from Hong Kong and I'd never been to Hong Kong and I wanted to come to Hong Kong you know like I was a massive Bruce Lee vanam fan seeing all the Hong Kong flicks and um uh we had people flying I think it was from London New York Switzerland in Tokyo Singapore yeah and um you were you were the leader on the sales board you had you had done the most transactions the most business and um you know I just asked you loads of questions you helped a lot and Tanya again she was she was brilliant yeah you know so that was was interesting so our Journeys are very similar in that sense um and then and then what happened after that then uh so let's think so few years at Black Mountain um which is actually great I really enjoyed the experience learned a lot actually by the way we should say black mountain is an HR Outsourcing firm biggest client was credit Swiss with a lot of work globally with credit Swiss I think in Singapore we had 10 people on site working at credit Swiss alone so it's pretty significant yeah I don't think we had that many in Hong Kong but yeah we had people fulltime credit swis and a couple of other Banks as well great business you know you work directly with graham so you knew Graham before yeah I knew Graham through um through hockey Loosely so we played for rival Hockey Club so I kind of knew him a little bit socially and we had a few kind of friends and then I got to know him more as a client and then obviously you know as a boss in those days yeah um and it was really good what the only the only sort of that time the thing what I missed about recruitment was every day some there was some positive interaction you might get a good CV or you might book a meeting or you might get an interview or do you know what I mean there was something to keep you interested most days yeah whereas with Outsourcing particularly on the bigger deals you know there could be a few weeks without anything happening yeah and so for my sort of level of um you know patience well you you you know it's interesting because you and I worked maybe a slightly different angle because I I deductively worked out if we were PID one to 3% on the size of the fee I had to go elephant hunting yeah right and you know that was it and then I realized the thing is if you chase really big Deals they lead to rfps that could become Global and then the problem is let's say ends up in London your colleague in London will end up front running it if the the company's headquartered there so then I kind of kept changing my structure and you but what you would doing you were putting runs on the board you were finding smaller deals and closing those deals um so it's was a balance of both right yeah 100% you what was it you know hunt whales but don't ignore the Penguins you great great saying well the other the other interesting thing was at that point in my career I don't know if you can speak to this but I found that I was just turning up every day and I realized that wasn't working I had to learn how to become an expert in sales and um I tell you a funny story so Daniel West I met him on my first day it was Monday the 3D of the third of the 3 and and um I spoke to him I said because he was moving to New York yeah and he had done a fantastic job in the region and I said look do you mind if I ask you a bunch of questions and I record everything I'll get it transcribed and U he spoke for about two and a half hours wealth of knowledge wrote it down and I got the front desk at service office to transcribe the whole thing and I thought I could just ask them to do that but they they charged two and a half grand for doing it and I said I want it colorcoded so when he talks about Zer put it in pink Tokyo in this color Hong Kong this color was very demanding at all yeah you know you know me um and then graah got got got the bill goes what now's this and I told him and then he said and I actually genuinely didn't know I just thought that was part of the service of Serv office I've never been in one before and then I just said just take it out of my don't worry about it you know it's it's going to help me and because I said that he said no it's okay but just think twice about that so I said what about the Builder I went out took clients out last night for a champagne dinner I was just whing him up but but anyway going back to the point and I remember speaking to you and to tan and Graham and I said look what sales was I read and um that that was the Journey of me doing a lot of self-development but it it took me until that time to really start doing it what about you were you have you always done a lot of training development in developing your sales skills or was just you naturally great networker um I have to say we did some interesting courses when I was at uh at Hudson really um there was one course in particular that always sticks with me called Integrity selling which I always found quite amusing with recruitment background but um you know it was essentially how to put the person you speaking to in a pigeon hole and then based on what pigeon hole they're in you treat them differently so they doers talkers plotters controllers and then there were different buying signals that they would give you know talkers want to be a friend controllers want you to do things exactly in the steps that they say things like that doers don't want any chitchat just straight down to it little things like that understand who you're dealing with and then adapt your style to what they want rather than going this is how I sell yeah and you know and then good luck with that and while you know some of it was a bit cheesy but it was quite interesting it's kind of you know don't treat others how you want to be treated treat others how they want to be treat it yeah with a sort of I guess the underlying message and that that was quite good but I also as I was sat there I was thinking well that's just Being Human isn't it that's just you know yeah that's a natural thing that you would do but actually not everyone no for you for you and I it's natural but what the other interesting thing I I Learned was if if you look at you and I very similar but very different styles as well you look at Graham um and what I learned is i i i i devised this methodology kind of off the back of this the art of selling without selling you know he just presents facts and goes through everything but there there was a lot of uh sense behind that right um all right so after Black Mountain what where did your career go so I was I had a hankering to get back into recruitment um I was missing the sort of cuton thrust of that a little bit um and um also you know while while I didn't finish my degree I studied law at University had a lot of friends who were lawyers um why didn't you finish your degree you're having too good a time let's see the uh the podcast answer is I didn't want to be a lawyer so I decided right I'm going to stop the degree work out what I want to do and then and then finish that's sort of the nutshell version if I wasn't an idiot I would have just finished the degree and then not being a lawyer yeah right but as you know when did you stop after like second year yeah yeah so interesting yeah and it yeah it was it was it was it was a silly decision at the time although having said that it kind of it was part of the journey that led to where I now so I'm you know I'm I wouldn't take it away but you know I wouldn't necessarily advise someone to drop out maybe change course or you know I was doing French a law with French and German and were you studying uh University of the west of England in Bristol okay um shortly after it had moved from Bristol Polly into the west of England so kind of early '90s um but we were studying in our second year French law in French German law in German and English law in English wow and the English the law part I was was fine and the French was manageable the German was a disaster and I should have been honest with myself and said actually you know what I I I'm not going to put the work in that's going to get me through this yeah kind of um so I should have just switched to straight law I think saying because when I when I speak to a lot of people when I'm doing career coaching it doesn't surprise me but it does that most people don't know where they want to go so one of the questions I always ask people what have you been ear marked for and invariably answer is I don't know yeah know like and what do you want to do what are your aspirations and people kind of get a little bit stuck and I think I don't know about you my mom and dad I didn't even talk to them about which university they really didn't give me any counsel so I would imagine when you made that decision you probably felt you you couldn't and we both got three kids and I'd want them to come to me early you know and talk to me about that well also having been a recruiter having met a lot of people having given a lot of career coaching and advice over the years I feel I can offer my kids quite a lot you know whereas you know Mom and Dad you know the advice when they were in you know school was do a vocational degree so that you can get a job you know they're coming out of South Wales right out of coal mining communities yeah you're not going to study philosophy right become a teacher become an engineer get a job and so that was sort of a bit of the advice that they gave me but as soon as you tell your parents you want to be a lawyer they're like great tick you know that conversation over I want to be a doctor I want to be a lawyer I want you know what I mean I want to do something that's has an obvious career path no more csil no are you sure or why um so with our kids I think we you know we'll if not Challen you know if not tell them what they can and can't do at least challenge them to sort of justify what they want to do and really make them think having said that you know what they want to do at 16 18 25 30 it's going to change and now that the world's very different well yeah move the economy and the skills needed move so fast now that you know so quickly that who knows what they're going to end up doing when did you think about becoming an entrepreneur because when I look back right I I think it was very obvious you and I were destined to be entrepreneurs and go into business I'm just curious when we when did you start thinking about it so left Black Mountain I joined a legal uh recruitment Boutique called Legal Futures I remember that which had spun out of Associates actually Damian yeah yeah he offered me a job for funny enough he's a very Dynamic yeah no I I had a lot I had a lot of respect for Dam actually yeah and one of the things I really forgot You' were there yeah one of when when I joined they had a um like a training go which was sort of you know uh you know learning how law firms operate what the different you know uh areas of law were what a day in the life of particular lawyer might look like some of the documents so that when you're talking to candidates you can speak their language right brilliant and so you'd have a vague idea of what they were doing and they wouldn't let you anywhere near a Canada or a client until you had a certain level of understanding of course it was super official compared to an actual lawyer we're not becoming experts we you enough to sort of you know talk to them in their own language and then also learn about the hierarchies of firms I quite liked that in terms their practice law yeah I I ended up specializing in Pirate practice um and you know I found it incredibly interesting but from recruitment you know if you're working an Outsourcing company it's hard to think to yourself I want to be an entrepreneur and set up my own Outsourcing business yeah there's you know a few barriers to entry there you need a little bit of infrastructure and no one's going to Outsource to a oneman band yeah whereas in recruitment once youve built your name your reputation you have Client List you've got candidates yeah the barrier to entry for recruitment is actually you know quite low yeah you know which is why we're like you know sort why there's so many kind of Boutique recruiters so that was kind of gave me the idea but what really tipped into the balance was in the financial crisis M so towards the end of 2008 I'm looking into 2009 going there's going to be zero recruitment or very little recruit so I just thought to myself I can earn 100% of nothing or 40% of nothing and it was you know I thought to myself right I'm going to set up build my build my pipeline of candidates get my you know service agreements in place and then when the market comes back I'll be ready to ready to go rock and roll yeah and so it was quite a sort of opportunistic but strategic decision at the same time so I'm I mean I kind of always wanted to do my own thing and I I've always worked in small environments Hudson being you know an exception and there were some advantages of that but I'm not that interested in the greasy pole you know I don't like losing arguments at work I want to sort of you're complimentary your anyway the way you work yeah yeah but I I kind of want to do what I what I would do and if and if it doesn't work then I'll change if it works great yeah I don't want to be told to do something unless I you know really believe that it's going to work and I can you know see from the person that's giving me the advice that it has worked for them yeah so anyway so I thought yeah so Recruitment and then and then got into that um don't don't you find it interesting though because I feel that you and I were never fully understood or maybe valued because if I had a young guy like you or me back then working with me I'd immediately bring them CL into the business and say look this is what your future could look like you know you could be an owner in the business got a lot of potential I want to develop that potential um but it's you know because I I I'm just amazed because when you come across people like that that are that are driven ambitious you know work hard um entrepreneurial entrepreneurial right you give them ball and let them run with it so I just I just find that M cuz I never had I never had a boss that saw my talent believed in me and you know what I'm grateful actually because you know led to me setting my own business and early yeah you know so there there is but there there is a flip side right there a positive as well yeah no I I would agree I think I've had a c I've had some bosses I really respected and and um learned from and I've had and I've also learned terrible bosses yeah you're right you can you can learn how not to do things right it's also quite important so um yeah and what was interesting when I was uh running the recruitment business the had which is how I got back into Corporate Services um a really good friend of mine who was in Australia introduced me to someone who was looking to build out Corporate Services business in you know this part of the world Hong Kong China um and so he came to me as a recruiter can you help me staff the business up and we were chatting and he was like well actually you've already got a bit of infrastructure you've worked in the industry before you know what we want why don't we do the business together you know we'll we'll hire someone for ourselves we'll form company and we'll do it thinking yeah so it wasn't my idea to get back into Corporate Services but again an opportunity came along and um and actually we just recently had set up another recruitment company to leverage off our infrastructure so we'd gone through that business setup process solving the problem you know what I mean and we'd so I'd already started bringing other companies to Hong Kong and Hong Kong is an easy place to do business as you know we can obviously talk about that later yeah um and so we thought right so went into corporate services so me and my business partner and and him and his business partner we shook hands and and we set up uh the corporate services business back in 200 10 okay um and then yeah got back in the game I'm still end out you know what's interesting um is I can't remember when you and I found out that you and Neil bullet were very good friends and you lived together in Discovery Bay in B because you know Neil was the first guy that I met in Singapore and it just it it baffled me that you guys were had been great friends for years and neighbors and I I only found out about it I think after he left Hong Kong which was a real shame because we would have had some good nights out you know what I mean shows how often we're on Facebook just crazy right absolutely crazy so tell us about your current business um you know what was the the idea behind the name and tell us about you know what you guys are doing sure so I guess just so with the Corp the first corporate business we start out which was um asa's corporate Services we ended up selling that in 2015 to amicorp okay um that I worked with Sovereign trust for a few years which is like a big International Trust Company yeah um so full circle back to the trust business yeah and then um again sort of you know looking at the market and um you know sov Sovereign was a great place to work I really enjoyed it and they were sort of but they were moving more into sort of asset management wealth management pensions um you know they weren't uh dealing as much with the sort of the entrepreneurial Market in Hong Kong and you know new businesses it was for more established um it was kind of they had a different client profile than I was used to working with and you know preferred to work with so thought right I wanted to go back out on my own again and I'll speaking to um someone who I met back in Mountain days Steven Barnes who from the Hong Kong Visa Center and he and I had always done a lot of work together um you know he does you know immigration specialist bringing into Hong Kong you he's the Hong Kong Bea Giza Rec 10,000 videos out there for anyone who wants to go and check them out okay um and so he was like look we need to build something together and I was like yeah I agree you know and you know he used to spread the immigration work around to different corporate service providers and then looking to get referrals back yeah immigration side but between us we generate a lot of work ourselves and he goes look why don't we just put it all under you know One Umbrella keep it all in house so we shook hands and set zip up he'd already um you know come up with the name it was kind of what he called you know it's like an idea virus that sort of sticks in the mind was close to zero which is your accounting software so zip so sort of sounds a little bit similar yeah you know if you're looking for it on Google you start typing Zeds in and it should pop up if you've heard the name yeah so I was kind of I'm like sure I was unsure about it uh at the time but I kind of like the name now because it is a bit different it does you know people it does stick in the mind right which is you know which is which is good um you know four Zeds three's too few five's too many I was going to ask you how did you do how did because we floor is the perfect amount of that's it yeah that's it uh and yeah so we ended up you know building it together um and actually with Asus we built a a mediocre business in a great Market it was a good business but it was sort of you know my first time building a corporate services business from scratch we made a few mistakes we had a couple of um you know High highs and some low lows but learn a lot from that and so building zip I'm like right I can use the experience that I've gained and and really build it so I feel that we've built a great business in terms of our service offering infrastructure um but you know we got our license right before the protest kicked off in 2019 then we had covid then you know geopolitical uncertainty yeah um you know the trade war with you know China and the west and all of that sort of stuff so it's been a a challenging time to to build the business for sure um but you know I would say we've we've out Incorporated you know I don't know a high percentage of the market who know is what that is yeah but anecdotally talking to you know friends and and contacts in the space from a new business point of view we've been doing you know very well well for me right uh I've always loved Hong Kong I believe in Hong Kong and I feel you know that's why I'm here right um tell us what you've seen about you know the Resurgence of Hong Kong because it it feels like things on the up again right yes I would say you know we're not in a bull market you know we can't pretend that we are however we're definitely on the road to recover you know Hong Kong is coming back from an an economic point of view um you know all the reasons that made Hong Kong a great place to do business or have made it a great place to do business historically all are still in play all still exist you know from you know the tax uh environment and the treaty Network availability of talent um you know the ease of setting up and doing business I think we've just been both of the freest economy in the world again um you know signs of life in terms of family offices and uh coming back to Hong Kong um and now that the biggest problem in Co honestly speaking was the 21-day quarantine Hong Kong you just couldn't travel here yeah and so people and Hong Kong being such an important Regional Hub Global Hub people just found other routes and you know found other markets and Hong Kong while we're open for business again not everyone is sort of has come back yet but they're starting to yeah um you know particularly from the Middle East particularly from you know some people are starting to come back from Singapore I don't think it's a mass you know influx but definitely a few people are you you you off camera you were saying you starting to get some interesting referrals from Dubai for example to set up here right yeah so I mean Dubai you know is a great place to go and do business a great place to live it's attracting a lot of um attention at the moment internationally you know let's say you're a Brit at the moment who's looking to um you know build your career overseas yeah Hong Kong is struggling to be heard among the noise right that Dubai is creating as a as a destination yeah but once you're there once you've set up um you know you've got corporate taxes starting to come in um it's actually not that cheap place to live to do business while the tax might not be high there's plenty of uh licenses and there's a lot of friction in terms of doing business y you know with the amount of people that have moved there in recent years from all over the world that's obviously putting pressure on you know housing and financial services kinging you know it's you know banks are other lot of scrutiny there at the moment for obvious reasons um so if entrepreneur in Dubai and you want to set up your second or third you know you must every entrepreneurs a lot of entrepreneurs have got more than one thing cooking at the same time yeah if you set up a business in Hong Kong from Dubai and you're running it from Dubai it's not taxable in Hong Kong the territory based tax system it's also not taxable in Dubai the understand that the U doesn't care what you're doing outside of Dubai yeah so you can actually set up quite tax effective international business from here yeah from the base and a lot of people are you know starting to realize and as Saudi and China get closer together you know Dubai and Hong Kong being the gateways to those markets are starting to do a lot more together Hong Kong's investing heavily and marketing itself aggressively in the Middle East yeah it's interesting you know so so so when you know if you break down the demographic of uh the majority of your clients um the majority of them would be entrepreneurs setting up right would you say I would say the majority of Hong Kong based entrepreneurs okay either setting up another business or setting up their first business so you know you might work for a consultancy one of the big four um and then you decided to go out on your own you know so we'll get people already here looking to set up their first Venture we got a lot of clients who move to Hong Kong in order to set up um so we'll sort out the immigration side of things for them as well um and of course we'll look after the Hong Kong office of an international business so their first employee in Hong Kong you know we'll set up the infrastructure for them to enable them to you know give them a bit of you know corporate infrastructure um but I would say yeah the majority of clients are Hong Kong based entrepreneurs and businesses what what are some of the reoccurring trends when you meet entrepreneurs and or people that starting that Quest you know what are the things you see okay yeah this this guy's got it she's got it oh that's an interesting question I'm sure it varies tremendously right I tell you what I do occasionally meet people and I think this person's going to go far and I guess that's from recruitment as well you know some when you when you recruit for a job and a candidate walks in and you're like they've got the job I'm done search over you just know it and you know the client's going to know it and you just know so occasionally I meet entrepreneurs like that as well and even if the the business that we help them set up doesn't work I know that they're going to go again yeah that they will be successful yeah and actually I I it's have to think about it a bit more there must be sort of common traits for the moment it's just a kind of a gut feel but I would say people who are very passionate about what they're doing do you know what I mean and they have a huge belief in themselves and what they are going to offer what they're going to offer in the market and they might have already tested the waters so they might have been running a side hustle yeah that then becomes more interesting I tell you what was interesting during Co actually um Hong Kong is a is a great town for side hustles so very easy to set up a company register yourself as a soul Trader you know get a bank account sorted out and just get trading y so might be sourcing things from China or you know could be more things that you know selling arts and crafts in a market or but a lot of people in Co when they were working from home actually spent a lot of time on their side hus yeah so we incorporated a lot of businesses and they're like well this used to be a side Hustle but now I'm making a lot of money and it's all going through my personal account yeah and I haven't set up a company um but I'm I said okay we'll help you sort that out so we the interesting thing is you're uniquely placed that you've got this Rolodex in this network of all these Dynamic individuals have you ever found a way to kind of I'm sure you connect a lot of people knowing you yes um so as I tell people when we're setting you know we're setting up look if you come across a problem you're trying to solve whatever it might be doing business in Hong Kong talk to us we'll either have the answer or we'll know someone who has the answer we'll have seen that something similar or the same situation in the past and we can leverage that experience with people and every now and again we just connect again with my old recruiter brain just matching people together yeah so I have actually thought about formalizing that a little bit with having a sort of like an Alumni network clients and just a way you Marketplace of ideas sharing well think think about this right so your wife's an artist and let let's just say you've got Neil who's trying to come and bring his his gin or his whiskey brand and he wants to do an event tasting evening and she wants to put her art decoration up and you know the person you know owns the warehouse you know you could become Mr facilitator yeah um let's talk a little bit about lessons in entrepreneurial because it's not an easy Road there's a reason why I've got no hair right I always tell my wife it's because of her nagging but um yeah but share some of the lessons that you've learned along the way good and bad I think one lesson I've learned the hard way is you know be very careful about the people you get into business with um you know and then as a follow on from that make sure what you do as as an entrepreneur is well documented um you know so we'll help people what's interesting um people setting up their second business will do it very differently from the way they set up their first business interesting right so one thing would be people don't want to spend money on lawyers at the beginning yeah because you know they've got a budget they're trying to bootstrap it you know but lawyers at the end of business are a lot more expensive than lawyers at the beginning right interesting so how you structure things you know where you might want to exit you know looking at jurisdictions where where should you set up where should you you know expand yeah um you know over complicated tax driven structures just don't really work you know if you want to pay less tax then move to a low tax jurisdiction yeah you know whether it's the business or yourself or both do you know what I mean so just kind of so structuring you know but sensible structuring um I would also say trying to raise money and build the business at the same time yeah is very difficult very difficult sometimes it might be the only option but if you know if you have the ability to get the funding in place first before you start spending the money that's you know sounds like a no-brainer but actually most entrepreneur just go yeah and they'll solve problems on the way including oh I need money yeah um but it consumes a lot of business owners times that the raising of the funds it's a full-time job it's very hard to you can't it's very hard to run a business and raise money for a business at the same time almost impossible that's the interesting thing cuz I've always been self-funded and I'm I'm cognizant of that it's a strength and a weakness it means I'll never be Filthy Rich right there's there's a there's a Donald Trump saying not that I'm a fan but um if you owe the bank a million dollars you're in trouble but if you owe the bank 100 million they're in trouble so it is it is interesting um and then what what lessons would you share with guys that are thinking of going into business for themselves what would would what else would you suggest that they think about um well of course it depends on the industry and the specific things but what I would say is do your planning early you know one of our clients who's been incredibly successful did a huge amount of homework before you know leaving their safe kind of employment you know leaving your your paycheck behind yeah so what I would say is start when you're ready I mean look sometimes you know there's a gap in the market and if you don't fill it in three weeks you know your opportunity is gone fine sometimes you just need to go yeah um and if you've got nothing to lose you know let's say you're 23 and you got this great idea and you don't need much money fine you know if you're a father or or wife you know you have children you have people who depend on you you know it's a big decision to you know to to leave a stable income behind go off and set up on your own so make sure I would say you have the financial ability to to survive what will always be longer than you think to get going well what the other thing is I think people don't realize even if they run a company when it's your money um everything's different you know you have five people in a room in the meeting and as the owner of the company you're thinking this meeting is just cost me $110,000 and we were chat for an hour no we we need to crack on you know what I mean it's a game changer and and handling that pressure is not easy um how is it with you and your wife both been entrepreneurs because that's that in itself um must not be an easy journey to navigate especially with three kids yeah we're all we're always busy yeah um there's always something going on yeah and um you know but we in Co it was fine actually because both our businesses were doing okay um you know because of just there was opportunities that Co presented as well as you know the the kind of avenues that it closed down yeah um but we've always kind of made it work I mean's been an entrepreneur since she was 22 so going back to you know when we met she just set up her business yeah so she set up an art school when she was you 22 Hong Kong when she was 24 she'd been in Hong Kong for a couple of years and then and she's on she's on a retreat now in Chang ma tell us about that so yeah so it's the Uma Retreat she runs with a A friend of hers Ruth um who does Pilates okay so it's a it's like a lifestyle and wellness sort of retreat but with an art and pilates flavor to it aming um so people come back after a few days just you know in a good in a good place yeah I think my wife would like that well I would have to hook that up um talk talk a little bit about navigating the regulatory framework here because I know that the regulatory side of things in in Hong Kong and in Singapore keeps evolving you know you have to stay on top of it yeah I mean we help clients with that um one thing that I'll just start with is if you're looking to come to Hong Kong and set up a business yeah and that particular business does need a license the default position of all of the government departments in Hong Kong I've ever dealt with is to say yes right which is a good place to start now occasionally some of the requirements they have some of the boxes that need to be ticked you know seem pointless and ridiculous but if you just say look tick the Box move on get the piece of paper you know crack on so I would say because of that it's it's it's a good place to deal with to deal with The Regulators yeah so we'll help you know we have clients who need you know either Recruitment and employment agency licenses you know import export licenses um you know we deal with money lending and also money service operators both of which are quite important in finex um once you get into the sort of really meaty things like you know sfc licenses for hedge funds and things we work with a network of Partners on that because you know that's a a whole area of specialization that sure you know we we understand from 20,000 ft and can help facilitate but it's we can but we have a l ofices cents that are liced and regulated and we help with the you know from the setup all the way through um with our you know regulatory partners and and law firms that help how how uh because we both come from an Outsourcing background how integral and important do you think Outsourcing is in today's businesses especially with the startups you generally start with a small team whether it's just you you know two three four whatever it is you know you can't be an expert in everything yeah and I would say the entrepreneur or the business owner manager needs to focus on what they're good at yeah what makes money you know there's no point having a lot of strong weaknesses Outsource everything that is not core to your business you know and then you know in the in the growth cycle of any business you you know you Outsource you bring it back in you Outsource it again that you know there's different uh triggers that make it more sensible to have someone in house or not so I it's it's hugely important so we we'll we'll tell you know we'll help a lot with you know things like payroll and accounting the immigration side yeah um you know we do General uh you know business administration as well um what was interesting again going back to co was a lot of owners leaving Hong Kong for longer periods yeah and not necessarily having a good 2ic to to look after things so we would step in so we'll manage bank accounts for people you know so we'll be that senior employee who has the you know the keys um and we'll kind of manage that well you're really fully involved right um when when you look at the business climate in Hong Kong I think there's a lot of myths I'd like to just cover and get them debunked sure you know because you said this brilliantly Hong Kong's open for business yeah right um do you feel that coming back into Hong Kong now makes absolute sense and and you know what's your take on things right now climate here um yeah it's a great question Hong Kong is open for business all of the reasons that Hong Kong has historically been good for business are still in place yeah we touched on it earlier there's the the biggest I guess threat to Hong Kong at the moment is um you know kind of the western media in the western press you know hardly anybody can write an article about China without then saying oo and Hong Kong and there's a feeling that um you know that it's not it's not the economy it once was it's not the place it once was and I would just say that's boots when when your hair actually on the ground that's not that's not true at all yeah you know Hong Kong is still very much open for business um you know and a lot of people who are coming here for the first time setting up businesses the kind of the Young Generation coming through yeah are super super enthusiastic yeah you know as we as we were talking about before off camera you know the kind of the grumpy old grayhead people who remember it was you know better in my day yeah there might have been better in my day for me yeah but it's fantastic ftic now for people who are you know at that stage in their careers so I think you know and also once that kind of critical mass in terms of the you know demographics once that changes yeah I think there'll be a real Buzz you you'll feel it again you know Hong Kong doesn't quite have the same buzz on the street that it used to have I think that's fair to say for sure but it is coming back do you know do you know how a new Hong Kong had changed is when I'd come back first time after covid the taxi drivers were polite to me wow you you won the lottery there what's what's going on here you know what I mean is this the same place um but I listen I'm so enamored with the place if I if I hadn't married a Singaporean lady I would have moved here for sure and I was telling you that my my son turns 18 at the end of November kids have never been so we're all coming here and they're really excited and I've never been here for a holiday right so that the pro my problem is is actually narrowing down which restaurants and bars I want to take you know my my son to in particular um but I told what we're doing I found a a place that has a dirt bike track oh yes have you heard of this place yeah my brother-in-law's being with his and my sister obviously with with their kids they loved it yeah so like we've not got really any experience but you know they've got ATVs for kids six and up right and um we'll do some filming and the other thing I said to my son because he wants to become a filmmaker I just said look you're not going to find another city in the world that has the unique places that Hong Kong has right you just walk down a side street think wow that that that could be an epic place to film something do you know what I mean um let's talk about Hong Kong as a recruitment Hub because you know I've always felt big ticket numbers are in h call people earn good money um they've got some very Dynamic individuals here what what are you seeing from a recruitment perspective in Hong Kong um it's interesting I think recruitment just generally is a little bit flat at the moment but um we actually have quite a lot of uh recruitment clients um and also quite a lot of recruitment Tech clients MH um and you know that does seem to be a trend right the comp you know the big firms the banks are trying to do a lot more themselves utilize technology so what I see in the recruitment clients that we have are especially the more experienced recruiters are getting more and more Niche I think you know the more specialized you are the better whereas back in the day depending on the market as a firm being a bit more General might pick up more roles and there was lot of you know Talent around I think now it's sort of you know it's Tech or Boutique seem to be the where where where the recruiters of our kind of generation heading towards yeah it's it is interesting and I think um well the other thing is I always say to people uh get on the ground but you can go out same in Singapore to be fair you can go out for a night in Hong Kong bump into four or five people that will completely change course of your career your business right you just you just got to go and engage meet people Network yeah 100% I'm I'm kind of smiling why you smiling yeah well I'm smiling because that's how you and I used to do it right we' just be out and about old school you know or you know through playing sport or kind of networking or just hanging out with people you you were just yet out and about in town now there's fewer people out and about maybe a little bit because the younger generation is sort of a little bit more healthy than we are yeah and because of social media they're not interacting so much yeah you know good points but actually getting the sort of the 20- year olds and the 30-y olds to just go out and Network yeah and meet people face to face get on the phone rather than sort of email and whatsapping and what have you honestly they're missing a huge trick I'll tell you a funny story when I first moved to Singapore I worked on the legal desk and I knew nothing about it and um I didn't know what in-house practice was nothing I was 22 and I met a candid and I said do you have any like forums where they get togethers and he said look we we've got this in-house group people that that meet up um once a quarter actually there's one this Friday but you're not allowed I said' why I'm not all well you're not a lawyer you don't work in house I said where is he again and it was in Molly Malone's and V key so I go up there I bring my two boxes of name cards I've got 250 L cards and I gave them all out and I was asked to leave after about an hour and a half um by the general Council from FedEx and he said look I I appreciate you Gusto poor but you can't be here and I said well let me just finish my point and I just said um can you give me the list of everyone and he goes if it gets rid of you yeah now F off and um I said I'll call you Monday so I did and and he really really nice guy and he said look Ashley buddy of mine who's General council at UPS is looking for a headed tax and I said okay cool he goes have you covered that type of work before I said absolutely not he goes well just the heads out typically us firm will be looking for uh a tax lawyer right right but here in Asia we're looking for tax accountants so if you can find someone with legal accounting qualifications that would be great so I started thinking and I put you know this is I didn't even know what head hunting I was fresh on the ground Singapore and I very quickly worked out that they couldn't afford to pay top dollar didn't want to pay top dollar so I found a guy in Malaysia that worked for Arthur Anderson David Stone I remember his name um and then I got him relocated here and it was brilliant and and I remember they they he wanted cpf I had during the meeting I had to go out call the office manager what is cpf you know and then I structured the deal but it was you know who does that who goes out you know two weeks into their job two weeks into moving to Singapore goes out gives it and I called every single person on that hey great to meet you boom bo boom boom you you need to be on the ground and doing those things right no 100% understand you need to be here but as you say just you know call lists you know just getting names and just bashing through them yeah old you know stock broker style I mean there's still definitely a place for that we we I used to have an internal thing where if you got you got a a name list you would get a Brucey bonus and um one of my top guys he came back with ubs's list of 10 and a half thousand people he goes he broke of the deal goes if I got this list and had 10 and a half thousand people on it what would I get and I can't tell you on camera what I gave him as an answer but he he got a nice bonus from it yeah I sorry just quick one on on lists the uh my favorite sort of um list that I got was for um big F fmcg company yeah I sort of impersonated found someone on their website that was like an executive so I found up the office in Singapore's Regional help look doing a little road show around Asia I'm meeting people you know can you I need the names and phone numbers stuff can you send me your internal you know directory yeah um I said I was staying at was bar I might be making up I think where every Marriot Conrad whatever yeah and um and I said look you know I'm staying here can you kind of fax it to the business center that would be really helpful so fax right tell you how Longo yeah W brilliant one and uh anyway so so I told our receptionist right we had the this was in that the first place like a bat phone for head hunting which was a different company name it was terrible I mean but anyway I said right you have to answer this phone for the next however many days as Mar at Business Center so she did she answered it and it came through and they faxed me their inernal phone directory straight to recruitment fir the sad thing was there was only about nine names on it and other of them were useful which was a shame but I just remember like you know me that is amazing um you know I've always admired you for being a great networker business business developer sales guy what do you feel are some of the key traits that that you know you have um and that you think other great salespeople have um well I guess well there's for me from a networking point of view and from a longevity point of view I think the key is you know from a long-lasting relationship you don't don't chase the quick win or the quick deal so um you know you might make more sales If you're sort of you know hammering it hammering it do anything to close that deal you know from a recruitment point of view you know overcoming objections just close them get them to sign get the client to hire push it through push it through but actually sometimes if it's not a fit then don't force it yeah and actually you might lose that basement or it might take longer or but actually the relationship that you have with the people that you give genuine advice to even if it you know might cost you a deal that relationship becomes a lot stronger lasts for a lot longer and also if you treat people with integrity and respect and if you're honest and people trust you even if you might not do something directly with them you'll get referrals over the years and additional business that more than makes up for whatever it was that that cost you the time so I think you know plan to in a market for a long time you might not be right people move around but if you plan to be there a long time then you it's your name it's your reputation 100% so you've got to I think take that view and then you know in time it definitely you know pays off well the thing about you and I we're not transactional everything's long term yeah you know most of our clients a lifetime client yeah interesting enough Isaac and I had a dinner with a banker last night a private banker and we were talking about sales techniques and and he was grilling me a little bit how would you do this how you do this and I said I'm not going to give you all my Trade Secrets but I'll give you a little bit of a masterclass now you can pay for the rest he was very kind enough to pay for dinner it was an expensive dinner as well but um the waiter came and I I was thinking of ordering a bone in ribey and then uh a regular riy right and and he said actually I think that's a little bit too much I think you just get the boning R it it's a pretty big piece um and then if you get a couple of starters you know boom boom boom boom so you know what that's great we'll go with that and then the banker said to me you know what what's your take on that he's just lost the deal he's just lost this much money I said well really because we we've spent that much money on a couple of starters but now we've got you know a three course meal as opposed to you know one massive stake in a smaller stake and he was spot on because we we were stuffed at the end of it but I said more importantly you know that that guy had Integrity we're going to come back to the restaurant again and to top it off he came he came bought some shots to be fair they were black labeled so I didn't touch it you know cuz I didn't want I didn't want to stalker going into today's podcast um but but again transparency yeah but also you know he's going to get a bigger tip like so from himself from a personal point of view he's done all right and then as branding for the restaurant they're not trying to shaft you and stick you with one big Bill they want you to come back yeah that's a perfect example what was the name of the restaurant Carbone was it I think it was car oh Carbone's Black Sheep yeah Black Sheep was it yeah they're actually really good to really good State yeah great restaurant um let's talk a little bit about networking because you're a great networker I prefer oneon-one right I I prefer small intimate sessions but you've always also been great at networking you know how do you go about doing that um if you if you meet regularly with the same group of people or the similar group of people over a long period of time you build a relationship that um that lasts for a long time and also they kind of know you they understand you and again they sort of trust you so you know it could be through playing hockey or sailing or a lodge or um you know I'm I'm a the chairman of the smme committee for the British chamber been on that committee for eight years good man and and there's a core of us that have been there sort of you know for that length of time and the more you meet with people even you know book club it doesn't matter what it is yeah you just get to know each other they know what you do and then you get a lot of referrals from that yeah um and you can join sort of groups specifically for networking specifically for business but I think you just need to be out and about and how important because for me referrals are the key because if someone vouchers for you I think 40% of the placements we've ever placed have been through referrals yeah um and you know once once you've built a great name and a reputation a lot of your clients refer to you right or or the CEO asks you to meet you know the the CEO in Hong Kong um you've been vouched for so referrals that's a big part of your business right yeah huge I would say 70% of our clients are referrals yeah you know if I was starting out because because I'm not just starting out now right it's been more than 20 years working in this town and kind of building your own you know personal brand and network and um so you get I mean it's it's it's huge for if you treat people like I said before you know with with you know integrity and respect and you you're generous with your time you know initially to sort of you know help people solve problems then it it comes back to you you know was funny without mentioning names um I I met some very very senior the other day you know in a private bank this the the head of the bank and he's a a good friend of yours and he he asked you about me and you said yeah Paul's an absolute you should definitely work with him you know so and but but these things work well talk to me about um when you know raising three kids you know you can speak to this I I each of my kids are very different they're unique um but as they get older because you got a 16y old 14y old and 11 11 if they want to go down this entrepreneurial route would you say to them um you know finish University first you andl talked about okay well maybe you go into entrepreneurialism later on or or maybe straight out of the gate you I'm just curious have you had that discussion or you think what would you what would you do so Arthur my middle son is definitely quite entrepreneurial he's very inquisitive you know he's asking lots of questions about it he's trying to understand how the world Works money you know he'll look at crypto random thing you know I mean he sort of he'll see something and he really wants to find out so I suspect at some point we have to have you know a chat with him Olive my daughter who's oldest is kind of looking at um you know she's fitting between education all sort of Performing Arts You Know Drama English he's quite creative um so we'll see what happens there but I would say finish your degree um you know I've been in two minds about University education recently in terms of do you need it or not it doesn't have the same value as it used to you know if everyone's got a degree is is it special anymore um I was talking to a good friend and a client about it and she was saying well look whether you use your degree or not in and whether you learn anything that's specifically helpful it's a ticket to Global Mobility if you're looking to move countries having a degree is just one of those boxes you need to tick yes so even if it's purely for that reason and certain degrees are fantastic you know a good degree at a good University can really set you up just in terms of your critical thinking and and you know all those sorts of things um so I would say yes get a degree um and then get out into the real world and and see what you want to do try different things try different jobs if you have a passion go for that initially and see how that works out but if they had an an idea they're like hey I see an opportunity there's an idea and you know if it if you sanity check it it looks all right say all right why you know give it a go yeah sensibly but I would also say look you know side hust yeah as long as you're not competing with your employer right and breaching employment agreement right then test it out yeah for sure you don't have to go you know quit everything and go you know full on straight away so I would say side hustle first see how it works out test the market yeah and I think what's so important is when you're young if you get the opportunity to live work study abroad it's huge because it it it changes it shapes your view of the world because you know you and I were International but I know so many guys I grew up with in the UK I actually think they would have loved living happen and before you know it you're 40 married with three kids and it's very unlikely to happen so I I'm telling my kids go early that's why I'm bringing them to Hong Kong I want them to see as many different places as possible um and meet as many so what I'm doing now interestingly enough is I'm trying to get clients and candidates that then I get along very well with when I'm meeting them instead of going after din I'll have them over and I want my kids to meet them and um because they have exposure to very senior people uh and and actually the kids are a testament to me you know if if I'm you know I I didn't mean this but I had a couple of clients over recently and um they said look we we know all we need to know about you because we've just seen your relationship with your kids and your son in particular cuz he sat and joined us and almost started crying at the end of it cuz it was was that was that was not the goal that wasn't the intention do you know what I mean it was brilliant well no just on that when I when I came over to yours recently when I was down in sing uh same thing like kids yeah we all had dinner together yeah yeah super polite super respectful curious I I was really uh really impressed actually than that was that's kind of um so rapid fire fun questions buddy what's the first thing that you do in the morning that that you can tell us about so that I don't walk around like an old man I need to stretch out my ankles yes so they just hockey injuries yeah they just buggered from Sport and and essentially I kind of you know walking on hot coals if I don't do that so sadly uh I have to move my ankles around but you're on early riser you've always been right you get it pretty early oh I'm well not as early as ell and the kids at the moment because they're up and out for school so they're sort of up before me but I'm out of bed before 7 most mornings but in our house that's already a bit late if you weren't in your current industry what would you be doing it's a really interesting question I think from the skills like you and I have talked about from what we have in terms of you know negotiating relationship building you know deal closing yeah you know in a different world sort of broken but maybe more high value things so like broking commodi something like that same exact skill set that I have and that doing but yeah just bigger deals and more cash yeah that that that is there's something I enjoy that's more lucrative right if I'm if I'm thinking about it in those terms yeah well talking talking about that that friend of yours if you look at Z and zags and that R has really been met meteoric what's your favorite place to unwind in Hong Kong that is off the Beaten Track my well anything on the water right so whether it's sailing on a junk by the way you when you video called me the other day or I video called you I was on a junk yeah and it was like what what am I doing stuck in the office and you're out there yeah Friday wine club day junk that was great geez um and and and actually and that left from uh Central but actually it end we ended up in Middle Island which is the Yacht Club's um facility in between repulse Bay and Deep Water Bay and Middle Island is my sort of happy place in Kong oh is it I absolutely love it ell and I got married there yeah is repuls play a place where you can you can do like jet skiing and uh I don't know if you can hire off the beach but you know if boats go there like if a junk there and have a jet ski then it does happen but I'm not sure you can rent them off the beach you need a license in Hong Kong um for jet skis which goes back to a case involving my little sister back in the day he was almost run over by a jet ski oh sort of swimming near our junk okay um and there were a couple of court cases that came out of that I bet one involving my old man and the guy who was driving the jet ski and uh what involving the uh the guy just it's got to be sanctioned otherwise you're going to have loads of crazy people on beers out right so you don't see that many jet skis in Hong Kong right like you do in other parts of Asia that's part what about like weight boarding and stuff like that yeah weight boarding absolutely Deep Water Bay and repulse Bay you can you can book it yeah what's the weather like at the end of November is going to be oh yeah you're thinking trip aren't you uh yeah should be should be yeah thin wet soup but even then you're probably be all right once you're in it's okay what's the best book or podcast and or podcast that you read or listen to recently um the Quint cenal questions podcast you got to watch that John D one man you're gonna love that yeah no I'm Keen I'm Keen uh podcasts I I watch Snippets quite a lot yeah um you know the longer they go on the harder it is to sort of sit through the whole thing I like I like trigonometry I like Rogan um you know the rugby pod um is is one of my favorites it kind of depends so I'll sort of dip in and out of it like sort of 25 minutes twice a day on the ferry okay it's my sort of you know podcast time so I really enjoy that yeah books um I'm in a book club and we read a lot of um interesting things mix of fiction non-fiction you know different authors um who's your favorite author yeah have one probably George McDonald Frasier who wrote uh Flashman books by the way I am a future author are you yes I've got to write under a pseudonym because I can't self-incriminate you know but so I've started writing things yeah looking forward to that but one the book I read recently which I really enjoyed and it's on TV and Netflix was a three body problem Oh sci-fi I that the book was great I haven't read a it was such an original uh take on things so I love I love kind of old school do the kids like reading yeah Olive reads oh well done at least prolific no Olive reads is a is an AB book worm Arthur reads Oscar it's like you know it's torture for everyone try for him for yes he'll get there um if you could have dinner past or present with any entrepreneur who would it be with probably uh Elon I would say just fascinating now whether he be a great dinner conversationalist is a whole other thing but in terms of yeah that I think to to yeah he just fascinates me yeah he's on another level I I would I would I'd have him but I'd go with Richard Branson do you know what that's my 100% second choice when I thinking about it but for like a chat and dinner right you get like a house and fire cuz he has an island in the BBI Island yeah and so when I lived there my flatmate used to go out with uh Ros who ran NECA Island really yeah you know I never got a chance to go I was like so close it's so funny because I think people um you know all the guys are work for me I've got 131 books in the company Library and I always struggled reading because I'm dyslexic but so for example a lot of people know of Richard Branson but if if you've not read his Our Generation yeah I read that was the first book I read from an entrepreneur with like specifically like a business book almost well think about how he went about viewing Islands he had no money and he he basically said I run Virgin Records you know next thing he was on a private helicopter checking out all these islands and he did have two pennies to rub together you know just and then I remember reading how he broke at the deal uh with Janet Jackson and then Phil Collins remember that story so he got into a taxi Phil Collins was driving the taxi and said listen i' wring just done a demo can you have a little listen and he and um Richard Branson said yeah yeah sure and he goes well look you'll have to come back to my my flat but my mom will make you breakfast and Phil Collins was in the council flat put on the cassette tape whilst he was having his full English and that's how he signed Phil Collins Mad isn't it um favorite Hong Kong street food uh very easy curried fishballs really yeah ever since I was a kid absolutely love them love it favorite restaurant in Hong right now and today it's really boring but the uh probably the compass room at the AR Club okay is it good yeah yeah it's you know it's not the best food it's not the most expensive it's not the cheapest I would say it's it's some of the best value but it's also are quite old school which I like yeah I like old you know like dessert trolley that kind of thing you know it's just you know if whatever wine you ordered they got the right glass I just it's little thing yeah what's the one tool of r that you can't do without uh for business H for us as a business zero the online accounting software so we're you know we're Platinum Partners and it's you know it's a huge part of our business and the service offering we have so um in terms of for me I don't know actually I kind of flit around I'm I think yeah but for the business definitely s any hidden Gems or one Hidden Gem in Hong Kong that you would tell visitors about that they may not be familiar with um again's got to be linked to the water maybe poto the island there a little restaurant on poto really you get a you can get a commercial ferry from abedine an old sort of um uh an old old schol uh p o t o i okay I'll check that out it's really cool and also because it starts off right in abedine Harbor so you go out through abine Harbor which is quite interesting in itself where the jumbo used to be yeah yeah for it accidentally sank uh you remember the aranes flying in were you here into kitech yeah absolutely what was that like amazing what was interesting you you when you get back to Hong Kong let's say summer back in the UK land and you quite often would uh you know get off on the on the runway I know what you're going to say up the smell oh really yeah this the the the the very very distinct old fragrant Harbor smell back in the day I thought you were going to say when you arriving in you could see into people's oh no you could no you absolutely could and you know and it was hot and sticky well no you could see the Superman you know logos on people's pants hanging out to dry they washing right I mean it was it was you could you could see you know you'd recognize faces if you knew someone and see them in the window you'd actually you'd 100% see them brilliant um most memorable destination that you've traveled to for business um that's interesting I've been to sort of you know the usual sort of generically cities but um I've been going to Dubai quite a lot recently there was I enjoy visiting it I could live there but I'd much rather live here but um there's just so there's such a real Buzz there at the moment it's really interesting and it's kind of a you know population's really diverse but different way to Asia yeah so I'm sort of in walking around Asia I'm like I know where people are from I know what you know the languages that they're speaking whereas I go to Dubai and I'm like I've got no idea yeah it's fascinating it's a new world yeah what country what what language is that what country you from what's your ethnicity so I find it really interesting but also it's each trip I've been on has been you know hugely important for our business every time I go I'll pick up a new client or client work new introducer and there's so much synergy buil building now between Dubai and Hong Kong so it's not necessarily the most memorable as a destination although I don't dislike it or anything but it it's probably the the place I should go more to to go to m listen one one I was there one morning I U two mornings I had meetings and what are we up to you this morning I said well I was out on a on a boat you know going around the harbor and my meeting was a half you did that already I show video and you know yeah we don't really do those things if you live here and the next morning I did a Skydive and and it was like you know you got to make you got to make the most of it so what I try to do when I'm in Singapore is try and live like a tourist which is not easy right we're all guilty of that when we live somewhere how would you describe yourself Mr William prober in three words no swearing okay to um uh uh fun uh honest um and determined I'll give you a fourth one loyal yeah 100% will it's been an absolute pleasure anything else you want to cover no I think we're good it's been it's been really enjoyable right really enjoyed it thanks so much I appreciate it cheers cheers [Applause] [Music]

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