#12 with Iman Ibrahim Leading Family-Law Attorney: Debunking Divorce Myths

[Applause] [Music] hi guys today I had the pleasure of sitting down with Aman Ibrahim one of Singapore's top divorce attorneys it was an absolute pleasure I'll let her introduce herself a little bit better um but we learn a little bit more about her job what she gets involved with for those of you that are thinking about getting divorce what the process involves cheers Iman how are you I'm fine thank you Paul can you introduce yourself to my audience and you know what's your background okay so hi everyone my name is Iman and um I am a family lawyer I've known Paul since my 20s so really that was like two three years ago make sure you get that in jokes jokes uh we've known each other for a long time and I'm really thrilled that Paul's invited me to be on his podcast um he's had very you know important and uh High status individuals and here I am the person who works in the shadows um you know doing uh the work that's behind but really work that's important um I think family law is it covers a lot of topics but for me primarily it covers um you know people transitioning to a new life uh which is divorce uh and it's it's it's all it's not you know the nicest topic to talk about but it is a reality and a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about divorce you know it's it it is a life-changing and and can be a very traumatic event um sometimes it's come about because of a lot of other traumas uh but it doesn't have to be as bad as people make it out it's how you want to play it and so that's something that I think we can talk about because yeah uh you know there there are lots of things that people think about divorce or people who come to me and some of their questions are you know they've read it they've heard it from friends but they don't really know what it is all about what they can get out of it and how really to move forward from a life that you've had as a a a coupled entwined and maybe with children as well to your own life and a new routine and a new everything um the divorce part is just the the legal entanglement but there is so much more to it um and sometimes my role is more than just being a lawyer there's therapist there friend this this coach um and I do what I can because I I don't I'm not interested in just uh you know getting you out of your entanglement that that's one part of it but I actually care about my clients and want them to make sure that they're moving on to a life that's sustainable and uh can be happy as they move forwards well you know you know you know the misconception of of anyone that gets paid to do anything right is are you a parasite and you know how do you and the thing is I know you well enough and and you shared with me you care about your clients right and you're helping them through that terrible journey I don't know if I told you this so um my aun my mom's sister she was a family lawyer her entire career and the stories she used to tell us and you know so she worked in the East End of London so there were there were you know a lot of trauma and um I I remember sitting around the dinner table and she's such a great Storyteller and you kind of would go with her on that journey and that's one of the main reasons why I wanted to have a chat today and on top of that I have to say unfortunately 40 to 50% of my friends have either got divorced or thinking of going through divorce yeah right so I've got loads of things I want to talk to you about but if we can just unpack because you Tara my wife the the whole group of you uh uh you know you most of you did law so what was your journey cuz obviously your dad's a lawyer but can you just share how did that come about growing up in Singapore uh well I mean it's it's a bit less noble than it is for a lot of people I think it was one of those things where I wasn't very sure what I wanted to do with my life but yes as you see my father's a lawyer and so it sort of became and and and my friends were interested in doing law and so I just followed them like a sheep when when when was it when you decided this is what you were going to do at Uni so I hadn't decided it probably until closer to the end of um completing junior college and a levels um what did you do for so so when I was doing my a levels I actually picked topics that would allow me to go into medicine or go to vet school so I did chemistry and biology they were the science-based topics okay and um but after going through two years of studying biology I realized that I would never remember all the names of everything which you have to do and then as a doctor it becomes even more things that you have to remember um so then I realized you know what I I don't think I can do that but I could do law as in I've always been good at writing speaking um and and generally getting my ideas across and since my friends were going to do it it seemed like a nice thing for us to all sort of do together honestly it's it's very simp simplistic I didn't have any Grand schemes of of of this is what I was going to go into and then you know these are my progressions and it was a launch pin right you go to Great uni you went to Kings I went to Kings how did you choose sod Kings um well I knew that I wanted to be based in London because I am a city girl you know I love uh City life and I didn't really see myself um being far far away from London I knew it well because I have family there and then a few of my friends were going there and for singaporeans who want to come back to Singapore to to work as lawyers you are limited to the number of universities you can choose to go to they have a list of approved universities so you can only go to one of those how how long the list now and is it is it longer than it used to be do you remember roughly I think it's probably around the same because I don't think their criteria changes much at the time I think they weren't uh that Keen on Australian universities but now they're okay with it so they that's expanded that way but I remember how many UK maybe 25 20 to 25 yeah so you don't have a lot of choice um but of course I mean there's there's not that many universities in Singapore itself so uh it is good to be able to go overse and you know it was exciting to go away because I'd always lived um a very sheltered and comfortable life with my family and the idea of going away was of course super exciting because I've never had that kind of Independence uh so uh that's what happened really I I and and when you go to law school you sort of get told well these are the Motions you need to go through you know you finish you then decide which course you're going on whether for the UK whether you want to be a barister or a solic and then you just go off and do all the courses get the training done and then you're you're qualified um and so I I I went through all of that and I suppose along that road it was more of after I finished school and had gone into training and practice that I sort of found myself doing more and more family work and for example in the UK my supervising solicor was a very well-known um family lawyer okay a very well respected guy so he definitely taught me a lot and I got to experience a lot so I I did also do family work but going through uni right because when you come out you have to then choose what type of law potentially you want to do sometimes you can't choose it because the places for uh training are very very contested it's very limited it's so limited the point that some people have to defer training for a few years because they can't get a spot in the in the current year so uh I was quite lucky but it was because I went to a smaller Law Firm you know not one of the name brands yeah uh but for me I think that was a great experience because you get a lot of FaceTime with the most senior person I agree uh you're not just a small Cog in the giant machine you have to do a lot of things because that that's equivalent in a big firm is probably there's probably four or five layers yeah there's several layers so you may not always get that time with the most senior person and uh you may find yourself doing the same repetitious thing with maybe less variety because you you do get a little bit shoehorned into um what you're going to be doing okay in in each department of a large Law Firm whereas when you're in a smaller practice I mean they do do a lot of other things as well and so you get to have have a go at at those more General things a bit a bit like a GP with a specialization in something yeah yeah so when did you realize that this is I'm going down this path because if you look at all your other friends they you all went down slightly different path did with legal but it was a natural calling was it kind of just by chance I think I found it interesting the human factor for family law is I mean it's there and people act so differently when it's their personal lives compared to of course uh you know a General commercial transaction yeah and it's you realize how much impact you can have and I and I know that sounds trite or uh you know cheesy or corny but it it really does make a difference because it is someone who's going through a really tough time most of the time um and you can see the the depth and range of their emotions sometimes you meet their children as well you can see the impact of what's going on there it's it's really huge and it is really I mean the thing about law it's it's a game uh it's how well you argue the law and whether you can convince a judge that you're right yeah um and that's sometimes it's not even just the law it's the new and sometimes you may be more persuasive than someone else and that's how you get a result for your client yeah in in a for to court case um so how how much of what you guys go through is you have backdoor conversations with the other legal team we wouldn't call it backdoor for us we it's we call it without prejudice because sometimes you can have a better conversation over a phone call you know as you know sometimes you can't get across what you want to say in a letter because that's committing too much yeah but you you'll have a off the record conversation to get a feel of what the other if if your opponent is someone that you can talk to that maybe you can have a relationship with because it's not all the same not all lawyers are the same and maybe some are not so motivated to uh find a solution that works for everyone because sometimes that solution comes at the price of having less Billings yeah because let's face it I mean all we do is sell our time yeah and the more time we can sell the more Billings we make yes and the longer you fight for something the longer you drag it out of course the more money you can make if you find a a good and fast solution for someone well that's the end is it if so you can't so if I was a client right and hopefully I'll never be a client but if I said to you I'm not going to pay you per hour I want to pay you based on the job y can't do that there are law firms that do do that um like a fixed fee a fixed fee I mean I I would say there's a law firm for everyone and for every budget yeah but the uh maybe the attention that you get is is definitely going to be different what about retainers you guys so yeah so we we always take a deposit yeah uh for our Law Firm anyway we always take a deposit and then we try and Bill as we go along so that you know you don't get a large root surprise at the end um but a more manageable sort of monthly ongoing thing for as long as you go on for cuz cuz you know when I'm trying to sell it it's retainer um quite often the answer is no we don't do retainers yeah and I'll have done my research and for example if one of the CEOs has been for a bitter divorce yeah I just say listen when you if you have a heart attack you need to engage cardiologist you're having an operation you're going to have to pay for that yeah right and you know when you're getting divorced you need to retain a top attorney to help you and they get it they realize it yeah well I mean that's true we I mean we the reason why we have a retainer is because normally we have to pay out for you yeah first ahead of time so that's to cover to make sure that we can get that back or because we we do do the work first okay before we bill you and I mean that's worth something so so so what I want to understand right is um when so if somebody comes to you y let's just pretend someone comes to a lady comes to you and says look I think my husband's cheating on me I've I've hired a pi to check whether or not he's cheating on me um with with my sister just I mean what what I mean you've probably had conversations like that what do you at that point what do you say honestly um my first thing is to say don't hire a pi it's so expensive sometimes their fees are more than lawyers really because they have to do many many hours of surveillance and you do pay them by the hour you remember there was there was a guy in the newspaper and it was it was I thought know it was taking a piss but there was a picture of him a local guy pi and he was sing in a park with a hole cut out with a newspaper and he was deadly serious but was like oh my gosh but pis are still a thing here in Singapore pis are still a thing and I think if there's something burning that you need to know yeah and you really want the answer to it then by all means make that investment really but I think that if you suspect your spouse is cheating or if you're thinking of a divorce you probably already want a divorce yeah and you may not need to make that investment because the money would be better deployed to getting a better legal solution for you yes um so that's what I that's that's always my immediate thought it's like do you really need a pi okay so if the if the the prospective client comes to you and says I'm thinking of getting a divorce I haven't decided I get a lot of that yeah well but will you give them you know why I say that a strange question it's like if you ask a waiter or waitress is this any good they're really going to say no it tastes like [ __ ] you can't don't buy that go for go for this one yeah right so if if someone comes to as a div divorce attorney are you literally going to say I don't think you should get a divorce do you know what I mean actually I have said that before I'm sure yeah but um but that I think is just me um well normally we run through a few things and I'll I'll ask some questions and they'll basically tell me what's going on or what's their thought process and then I think what really helps people really uh you know get to the answer that they or a decision as to what they want to do is and I don't think a lot of people ask this but I think this is part of a life coaching type of question is where do you see yourself in five years time and that's a really it's in a way it's an annoying question but sometimes you you do have to think about that because the reason why you're coming to see me is because you have uncomfortable feelings and the question is can you sit with those can you work past those or will you still be having them maybe worse in 5 years time um a lot of people want to protect their peace yeah uh that's become a big thing since we've all had covid and circuit breaker and having to stay at home more yeah and I think that people realize that putting up with a situation that is and I'm not saying that life always must be perfect and ideal but that is really negative for you yeah and realizing that in 5 years time I don't want to be in that situation anymore and I want something different and so how do I get there is it by making that life change which is having a divorce and knowing all the impact that it has for you but not just for you the people around you and and in in particular if you have children your children is that going to be something that's worthwhile to do for yourself to make sure that you can have some peace in 5 years time and I think that after people sit with this question and it may not be immediately when they're sitting there with me but after they take that question home with them and really think about it um they will they will usually come to a yes um because they've already they've already in five years where you've had that where you've got the peace Is So Glorious that you want it sooner but but you're right though because if you because you know the thing is sometimes let I'll reverse it sometimes a lot you know the adage that you don't know what you've you've got until it's gone yes right so I think it's really important when people do Fast Forward scenarios to try to imagine their life y I mean if I look at my marriage right um I think I've got an amazing marriage so what you you do yeah so a lot of people will say it's it's hard work I mean it's probably hard work for Tara cuz she's married to me um but I I I no comment well well yes you can't say anything that she said to you on the record um but I but I I look at our journey and I and I I wonder at what point does a couple get to that breaking point but the reality is who knows right so so if I said to you what's the most common reason why someone wants to get a divorce and it's never one thing but and it's complex but what would be the answer I think it's because they grew up part oh so it's not infidelity infidelity is the symptom but it's not the problem or the illness you're good yeah you're good let me retain you but not for me for someone else um I mean the truth is if well I mean that's not always the case I mean some people are just serly unable to keep it in their trousers pants or skirt whatever you want but I think that most of the time if you even feel tempted it's because there's something else going on on and I think for Singapore anyway I think it's because a lot of the times people get married before they're ready because of Asian societal pressures or Norms or stereotypes that you feel you have to conform to well it's also getting an hdb flat think about it the process here is it's reversed this is one of my big bug bits yeah and well the other thing is you know like in in the west people tend to live together yeah so here it's really frowned upon to live together so you never really get to know the other person that intimately in order to really make an informed decision I mean marriage is such a huge decision in Choice it's the biggest and sometimes you don't know enough to really make that decision but because society says oh we've been dating for two or three years now it's time for us to start thinking about getting married or getting serious um or your family pressure whatever it is housing pressures even Financial pressures to get together in a marriage and then is it any surprise that doesn't work out really yeah so that's a really good point but I mean other times sometimes you have got to know the person really well but the fact is we Chang so much in life you know between your 20s your 30s to your 40s think about how much you've grown and changed as a person and you're really lucky if your partner is growing in the same way and you're not both growing apart or becoming very different people yeah so I don't know maybe the whole concept of marriage is is a tricky one I mean there are other people who are not married but who are together yeah very happy and very happy without necessarily having that that you know legal tag on them so what do you think inspired you I mean because you are a family lawyer when I think of you I think of you as a divorce attorney yes right so what what inspired you really to specialize in this because it's it's why I ask it's it's got to be emotionally very draining I mean after a while you disassociate I'm sure you have to right no no no I mean like you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself so that you can be efficient and and effective yeah uh but of course yes you feel the feelings of your clients if you're I mean if you're a decent person you would feel the feelings of your clients um and you and they're very strong feelings and sometimes they don't mean to but they do take it out on you or junior members of your team I'm sure I'm not necessarily on me but you you see the worst of people I I would see the worst of people what's been the most unusual case you've ever worked on I'm curious well what's unusual to you crossdressing Tendencies I don't know I mean yeah people do that but is it really unusual I think it's it's not I think the problem again would then for crossdressing tenden see Isaac you're not the only one would go back to the fact that you didn't disclose it in the first place so I mean maybe your your partner is okay with it as long as you do it in a particular way like they don't have to see it or you know you that's your 1 hour or whatever of time if you if you talked about it and been up front yeah I mean okay this is to say this is assuming you knew you were a crossdresser in the beginning maybe you learn later on if you learn later on then I mean I don't know maybe you still have to talk about it um but there's got to be one unusual case or a few that you you look back and say that was that was a B I mean sadly the ones that stick out are always the ones which made me feel traumatized and those tend to relate to there being issues with children um I mean unfortunately the good ones you never really remember because they're great and so you don't need to think about them anymore but valid point but the ones where I can see that children are being harmed and I mean emotionally not necessarily physically yeah I I often wonder if what you know what was my role in that yes could I have done better to make it better for them because they're just a victim really they're the victim and it's going to impact them not just in this moment but how they have relationships in future and they would have seen how this I mean the adults are responsible but sometimes their their big feelings get in the way of them being reasonable logical sensible um and or seeing the bigger picture you know because they're fixated at this one moment in time but as adults fine you can do whatever you want to the other adult it's it's what you do yeah uh but child does have necessarily all the facilities to deal with what's happening and um you know the impact is far more and the court realizes this by the way as well um so the court itself is moving away from adversarial and you know fighting about things and incl and encouraging what they call Therapeutic Justice which is putting the family first um at the moment I find it quite child focused which I think is great but I really look forward to it expanding because are a lot of people who have chosen not to have children or just don't have children yeah and it's not that divorce is any less traumatic for them um and they are a family it's not that they're not a family so I I I do think that there are also those people who who still need as much tender loving care from the court as those families with children but I'm I am very glad that we're moving in that direction um and putting the family first how long how long does a divorce tend to take tend to take from start to finish well okay in Singapore we have two types of divorces one where everything has been agreed and one where nothing is agreed or a few things are agreed so for the one where you you've been able to agree everything before filing the papers um it's a FastTrack simplified divorce and that can happen within about 6 months and then for the normal track which is where maybe you have agreed some things but not everything um it would usually go on for a year and a half up to two and a half years okay and then anything beyond three years is a long onez um with a lot of fighting and if you think about it the decision to divorce is the easiest part then yeah it's going through a year and a half or 3 years up to 3 years of you know seeing me talking to me having to make decisions on top of your daily working life and I and I appreciate that it's very hard for clients you have your day job and then you probably have children to look after or or a household to look after or whatever parents pets to look after when you come home and then you have your lawyer yeah asking you a lot of hard questions you know asking you to basically give an analysis of your life with all the math and accounting really having a long hard look so that we can we can cut it up and divide it and you know make try and make sure that everyone has a fair piece of the pie to then go on to their next stage but all this was you living your daily life I mean it's it's really really hard I don't I think I've told you this when we last met um I don't know why but I've been asked to intervene with maybe it's four couples yeah that were thinking of getting divorced and it's like I don't want to get involved because it's you know it's emotionally draining you know it's really tough um Are there women shelters for for battered women in Singapore that you know of um the answer is kind of yes there are but I um I'm not sure people want to go there I think it's it's there are okay there are I've met um I when I do um pro bono work um I I think I tend to interact more and it's where you have a social worker and it's for women who really have no no Financial Resources yeah and it's always it's it's not the nicest but you know you know the reason why I ask is I was thinking about this in preparation for today and the primary middle school I went to Y um it was a neighborhood School great school loved it um there was a women's Refuge okay and the school no close to the school sorry and and quite a few of the kids would go to my school right right right and but they they would rotate because it was a temporary home so they might be there for one two three terms a year Max and there was a local uh after school club and it was only for effectively kids that were from less fortunate families and from this type of setup because my mom worked for the council my brother and I were the only kids that it was called the Welden Center we were there for years and so we saw these these poor kids and a lot of you know the moms were beaten the dads were in prison and I sometimes wonder if that's how I got to understand and connect with people later on done I told you I used to teach women that were rape victims right self-defense and it's you know when you see someone that's been through a lot of trauma uh as an adult but when they were a child to me it's you can feel it it's it's it's it's profound you can actually feel it yeah so what what you're doing I think you're you're you're spot on um what are there any divorce myths that you would want to debunk it's the one that is the biggest is always how much more do I get because he's cheated on me or or she's cheated on me so she shouldn't have XY Z amount of money and then I always have to go well that's not how it works H oh it's not the money the division of assets the money part it's based on um your contributions to the marriage financially you mean financially and non-financially because obviously there are some who are stay-at-home so if you're going toes so if you're going to [ __ ] around [ __ ] around is well I mean yes okay try not to bring the STDs back uh yeah so unfortunately that's one of the most common things is that people think that they you know that the person who was the the naughty one should be punished financially and that they should be financially uh well I don't want to say enriched but and nor do I want to say rewarded but maybe compensated for their hurt um but the point is in any divorce everyone gets hurt and then are you then looking at compensating I mean how do you even do it so it's not a concept in law to punish or compensate for or hurt in the divorce but rather it's simply based on your contributions because in a marriage you should be contributing 50/50 and I don't mean that 50/50 financially I just mean that you do your part um in whatever it is that needs to be done so really if it's a long marriage it's fair that you each walk away 50/50 yeah um but of course there are nuances and the court sort of categorizes short marriages medium marriages long long marriages and then they have single income and dual income marriages um a lot of couples I think um when I've spoken to some of my male friends they've stayed in the marriage yeah because they don't want to see the financial downside right and I think that's okay yeah I do but one of the interesting things when I Tau I've had a few friends that have uh cheated on their spouses and they've come to me and they've spoken and and it's interesting because they they they desperately want to get out of the marriage by said what about the kids yeah what's have you thought about that do that fast forward scenario do that deep dive um but I think it's like anything when when it's volatile and you're emotional you can't always make a rational thought that's the thing so being a divorce attorney how has it changed and shaped your view of marriage and relationships um I don't well okay I mean to be fair I know that I only see the bad side of things and when I need to see the good side of to look at you so but we've actually we've got some friends that are very happily married right we do so I'm glad for that because it does show that it does work if not I would definitely think that it always doesn't work um but I I do kind of also think that number one marriage is not for everyone um and that I I still don't necessarily think that marriage should be forever or that you need to be together with someone forever I mean part of that is because for myself I didn't get married yeah and um although I didn't get married I I do have a child and I am really quite happy living a single person life yeah so I personally don't see the need to get married well you know the funny thing is in Singapore that's fairly uncommon it's very uncommon but in the UK it's normal right so the high school I went to by the time I finished high school 16 two of the girls had already had kids in my former class of 30 so that's 15 girls and one was half halfway oh no and so people they they really none none of them were mine by the way okay great good to know I mean I think that's a little different because that's not necessarily making an adult decision no um I I think mine was more of an adult decision in in that um you know I chose not to be married yeah uh and there was no pressure on I mean there yeah there was the tiniest amount of pressure but honestly not that much pressures and my parents and family and friends were all very supportive and I guess I believed in myself enough to know that I would be fine yeah and um well you're you're very strong like that but we talked about this when we had a drink last it was almost sometimes when we look back you know it might have been delusion it could yeah yeah yeah it was this illusion of being in your 20s and thinking you can really do it all and not really thinking too far down the future just thinking yeah I can do this I'll be fine it's it's but it's so you know I've got an amazing wife and we still struggle and we we we work very well as a partnership so being a single parent must be so tough I mean parenting is tough but when you say you still struggle does that mean um the working on your relationship part as well no not that part are you sure yeah I think I think as in I do think that people who remain married for a long time have to make an effort it's not I mean the problem is that you're so the concept of marriage of of it being sunshine and rainbows and confetti and sprinkles and sparkles without it having to have any real effort like nobody teaches you how to be married and maybe that's also one of the reasons why there are people who are divorced because I don't even think Asian parents really teach their kids how to adult well how to manage your emotions well I'm not saying everyone I'm just saying I I think I don't even teach it that well yeah um and so then you become a certain type of adult and nobody really also teaches you how to be married yeah and what are the the give and take part Parts I I do appreciate that some uh some religious requirements for marriage require you to go on a pre-marriage course yeah so I know that um so my Catholic friends have been on a pre-marriage course which I think has helped them a lot where you talk about the things that you don't normally talk about you know the ugly things like um well how are we going to do the finances how are we going to do the savings um but also realistic day-to-day things like how often do you want to have sex and know in a week and or how many children you want to have like something can you have put that into the contract could you could you write I think it's a contract but you know I think that people don't always have those conversations they I can imagine a priest if you're Catholic you know my wife's Catholic going to Father Father Ted and saying listen Father Ted you know if you're an Irishman will will will run by counselor is not Father Ted I know but I'm just saying so will she give it to me at least three times a week if not I'm not signing no but to be fair I think that people have also walked away from these pre-marriage courses and decided that that's not the right thing for them an approach right and that's as they don't want to get married anymore to this person or they don't want to get married because they've realized all of these things are not going to happen with this person yeah so I think that that's good but it's not for every it doesn't happen for everyone it's not a compulsory thing yes and so I think I think making the effort I'll I'll write to Tara I'll send her a WhatsApp say Dear Mrs Quinn you're cordially invited to dinner met to dinner with your very sexy handsome husband please RSVP and then giving away all your secrets now I know but listen listen I'm trying to help my brothers out right and then she won't reply for two or three hours and I'll say if you don't RSVP someone else's wife might you know just just a bit of banter right um so so what is the weirdest thing that you've ever been asked to fight for on behalf of the client nothing's really weird to me anymore yeah but there must be some freaky things out there I okay there's really nothing freaky I think it's just that some people are very Ott and I find myself having to negotiate hours of a day yeah um so for example let's call say Chinese New Year which is a two DEA in Singapore and um some couples are very specific they need to also have the the reunion dinner the night before and they can't or or they they insist on splitting the day in half if it's a special day to them so that the child or children spend half the day with one parent and half with the other yeah and then you wonder who is this being fair to are you really being fair to your child because for them there's that stress of the first half of the day is with this parent and then you know when you're with a par one parent children act a certain way and with the other parent they have to act a different way you know even with their parents families like maybe they like granny grandma and cousins and aunties and whatever on the side more or they're just more comfortable and relaxed there and they have a great time there then they have to have the struggle and rush to get to the next place and and then readjust their mindsets or the way that they behave and have to be a different way with different parent different family situations does that make it a nice Chinese New Year for them wow I don't know I don't I don't know I don't think so though you know one of the things I was thinking a few things that probably make you great at your job one is and I want to come back to this in a minute about you know having become a coach um but I also think it's your life experiences having lived and worked abroad um you know raising your son um you and the fact that you love life so much like you you've done so many different things yeah the one thing that you that you and I have in common is we have lots of passions we we follow them we try them we do them for a couple of years and we want to try the next thing yeah um but I'm very curious you becoming a coach has it helped you because ultimately you're a therapist to a lot of your clients so yeah an untrained therapist yeah but not really a therapist I mean a lot of times I think the reason why I decided to to learn more about coaching is because I realized that it's a very important part of the lawyering that I do tell us about that journe because I'm fascinated because that's very interesting well I mean as as as we've said I I deal with people who are in a in a different emotions and strong emotions and sometimes I don't know how to deal with it and then I wonder if I could have dealt with it better or even just working with my team sometimes I wonder what's best how do I get better out of them how can I make them see a certain thing or change a certain way that they approach things and then um one of my friends got into coaching not you who was it uh a a female friend of mine she decided to pursue coaching because she found it interesting for her personal journey and growth and um at the time I didn't think too much of it but um later on I had some uh some dilemmas that I needed some help when I was talking to her about it and then I realized that she had very subtly coached me into coming to my own conclusion really and that's when I realized actually I think I want to know a bit more about coaching you know formally um because I think that that is actually a very useful skill for me to have with clients clients sometimes don't know what they want and you can ask them a dozen times in different ways and they still can't tell you because they they don't know what they want so they can't tell you and they can't give you clear instructions and I need clear instructions in order to be effective so I thought that I would learn a bit more about coaching so I went on a coaching course and uh it's been very eye opening it teaches you how to deal with people in a way um without necessarily being a therapist but how you can talk to them or communicate with them for them to get to the conclusion or a conclusion um without you telling them what to do is conflict resolution one of the topics they actually touch upon or you you have they talk about it briefly but I've done conflict resolution um courses differently yeah in different place it is interesting it is interesting I mean I first actually started out with doing um conflict resolution courses uh but those were more legal based and so the idea was just how to be more effective as a lawyer doing conflict resolution without necessarily teaching you the length and the breath of the soft skills that you need to have to really resolve conflicts yeah and um I mean the thing is as a lawyer you only act on one side you don't act on the other side you can't be responsible for how they're they're going to react but do you have where you have the couple in the room at the same time screaming at each other that must happen every done again right not very often after covid so before covid uh at the court if there is a child there's compulsory mediation and counseling so that would be the one time where everyone gets together uh in the court uh building and you have you you you know you your client the other side and their client and everyone's together in the same room and that's really hard yes nobody teaches you that that's going to be so hard because the lawyers always I mean we know we're there to resolve conflicts yeah we also know or some of us know a lot of us know that if we don't resolve it we'll earn more and um that's that's going to be but you know cuz you're a good human being you I think you know that and that I guess the challenge for you is you're rarely going to get repeat customers right well you almost I've never got a repeat but you get hopefully get a referral yeah we get referrals or like you know people who want to come back for other bits of law things that they need done for sure a lot of people a lot of claiming clients come to me because of someone else who's had a good experience working with me yeah um but I mean the reality is that conflict resolution is is very hard and we're not trained in it what what's the one thing that you think couples do all the time that they're going through divorce what they shouldn't do they're just not listening to each other the communication has usually been impacted by the feelings so they can't hear yeah what the other person is saying even if they're being this even if the same thing is being said if the same thing was said to them by a friend by anyone else they would hear it 100% but because it's coming from the person that they dislike the most at the moment yeah then they still hear it what percentage of your clients are female uh a larger percentage I would It's a larger percentage do you think it's because you're a lady yes I think it's because men feel more comfortable with a male lawyer so interesting um you know that they they feel that there's a connection there then it's funny cuz I had I had a therapist for a short time um and I I wanted to work with a male therapist that was a lot older like probably in his 50 or 60s that had experienced many different things um and after seeing him I it's not that I changed my mind about that but I didn't really think about why right right but it's but it's interesting but it's probably because you thought that you you would respect him more or no it wasn't that was I felt that maybe cuz I had some things to share about my childhood right and I felt probably a little bit more comfortable yeah um I think that's fair because a lot of times male clients feel that a female lawyer is only there to represent the female interests yeah and they want someone who's like aggressive going to you know fight for them but the point I think of all of this is what are you fighting for really well that's the thing right do you think um that prup is is really a romance killer or do you think it's something that that most couples should look at at the end of the day you can't contract out of the law so where the law says you know the division of assets is based on your contributions if you signed a prup that was like oh zero someone get zero it would never hold up okay in a long marriage or a longer marriage so in in any event prenups are not um they're not legal considered strictly legally binding in Singapore okay and that the court will consider it but will still apply the facts of the law which is based on contributions but I think it's useful to discuss the points which are contained in a prenup do you do you um I don't know if you know this so when I I first started dating Tara after about two weeks yeah we were outside we were walking holding hands and I bumped into someone I knew and I int introduced her as my girlfriend yeah and when we got back she said we gave you the right to introduce me as your girlfriend I said oh really what do you want me to what you know formally ask you she said that would be nice do you want me to write you a contract and stuff she goes yeah why not so I went back that night i' had a few drinks and my flatmate was a lawyer in right if you're listening and um we wrote this amazing contract I want to see it we can't repeat most of it because it's absolutely hilarious but um I think that's actually what won her because it was quite interesting y um so how does it work in Singapore so obviously watching us TV I I see divorce papers being served yeah is that the same thing here yes what's the strangest way that you've had divorce papers been served I don't think we've had strange ways but I think we have some really odd requests so sometimes we're asked to serve on someone's birthday oh [ __ ] really or on um the anniversary of their marriage or something significant like that I'm like okay we can do that but what's wrong with you I mean that is that's that is Savage and what happens if you say look I don't think we should do that you just do it right oh no I don't say I don't think we should do that I mean I'm just like okay because you have to pick your battles yeah and um I'm not I'm not I don't care about fighting over these small things these are small things to me I just think that's Petty but yeah I'm like okay that's fine if that's what you want to do we can do that I can understand where the sentiment comes from but it just shows me who you are I I guess you know you talked about this earlier you've learned to become emotionally detached but you know have there been times where you've gone back and you know you really you know I think there are some things I can't forget like uh I attended a court session where the audio recording of a child being abused was being played oh god um and that I attended very early on in my career I have not forgotten what that sounds like and it horns you yeah you do Wonder like how did this happen yeah like what goes through a parent mind for you to to do that to your child yeah um but also knowing that that's a sign a again it's a symptom of something else and I'm not taking it lightly yeah I I I I mean the children in that case I do know what happened to them uh they have carried trauma of course the whole way through and had difficulties throughout and are troubled young adults now yeah so I can see firsthand what all of this does even if the divorcing couple at the time don't see it yeah um another one again that stuck with me is um emotional abuse of a child and I could see and the thing is it was my client who was doing it to their child and I could see it and then after a while I decided that I couldn't be a facilitator of this yeah I mean that you have to I I personally have to draw the line it's not all just about the money yeah good and I decided that I didn't want to do it anymore and so I got out of that what way um just but I but at the same time it feels like I abandoned the child because I know I know that that child's not going to grow up normally yeah yeah so that stuck with me as well really um yeah it's really really sad but the rest not so much I really think sometimes you just you know those the other ones you just detach yourself from they're very day-to-day if you were to give one piece of advice to couples that are about to get divorced yeah what would it be I actually think you should see a counselor or a therapist and work through um all of your feelings because they're big feelings and we can't like your lawyer is not there to deal with it and honestly do you want to I think we cost more than therapists yeah per hour yeah and our offices are not as nice so go and see the therapist genuinely go and see the therapist makes a lot of sense yeah or do what you have to do I mean if you if you need to exercise more I mean it's there's a lot of things of how you can work out your feelings definitely talking well maybe talk therapy is not a thing for you yeah but um a therapist may be able to help you just identify how you're feeling so that you can then go off and deal with it you know some people need to travel a lot some people need to I mean try not to do the shop a lot the retail therapy is not the best idea you might be accused of dissipating assets so don't do the reala therapy but maybe go go exercise or go travel or uh do something for yourself you know make sure you've got that thing that that helps you through all of this because you as I say you're going to have to do your day-to-day job probably going to have to look after your children you have to answer my questions you need to have something for yourself you know I find it interesting cuz uh again going back to when people have spoken to me and I sometimes I've said to people well look if your kids were going through a hard time say they failed in school they got into trouble with the police or whatever you wouldn't abandon them so why are you thinking abandoning your wife or your husband after 20 years of marriage cuz you're going through a bad patch you know cuz we've all suffered at some point probably from depression as we get older a midlife crisis we talked about that off camera um you know there are so many different changes that are happening or you you get laid off you lose your job um you have a stroke like when my dad had a stroke um and he couldn't work anymore the the the whole family Dynamic changed I was 14 and he was on the wrong medication for about 2 and a half years and he was a mean s so for 2 and a half three years really tough yeah and um my mom's one year an death anniversary was a couple of days ago and I called my brother and um we you know we were reminiscing about our childhood which we had a fantastic childhood yeah but we grew up in an environment where there were raised voices right and um so we we try not to duplicate that right at home yeah right we were talking a little bit about that but do do you feel that if you spoke to someone like a friend maybe not not not client yeah what you would like to say look you know what you're about to go through it's a [ __ ] [ __ ] storm right one you got got to go back and at least try to recalibrate this what do you think I okay I mean it depends on how the client is in that first meeting because no let's say it's a friend okay it's a friend so they're not at the point where they're saying I want to get divorced but they're complaining and they're saying this is this is going tits up I'm thinking of getting out of the marriage I don't care anymore I mean you so it's it's a very hard one I think it depends on whether there's a possibility that whatever is the problem can be overcome or is going to decrease over time I mean if someone if a friend was being emotionally abused or you know there's just so many red flags I don't think I could say sck it out yeah that's different right got to go but if it's a hump because as you say oh the other person's depressed or they're going through something parents died whatever yeah um you know then I would say is there something else you can try or if you thought of the happier times how could you get back to it yeah what would you do what would you give because a lot of it is about some element of compromise or sacrifice yes what would you give to get that back what would you invest in your time doing but I mean it's it is hard if the because you still need the other person to be on board with it yeah they need to be ready and open to making some changes I'm sure or receiving some help yeah or support and then then after you've given that a go then okay if you really can't fair enough get it it's done what what are some of the more creative custody Arrangements that you've seen creative um well I the thing is is creative good for the child I've seen people who do one week on with one parent and one week with the other parent this is become more common it's becoming more of a thing because people want equal time with the child they say well it's fair for the child to have equal time with the parent and again I say is it is it really what the child wants and you know sometimes the children are too young to be able to say what they want or they may be somewhat influenced by one parent over another or they take the side of one parent over another um I'm not sure that one week on and one week off is good but I know that a lot of people do it or two weeks on and two weeks off whatever it is but I can also see it from the perspective of the parent who doesn't get as much time so for example most normal uh Arrangements will be that the children are with the mother yeah that's where they stay and then they'll see the father on Alternate weekends because of course even though mother has the children during the week she's working during the weekday she's not really spending time with them so it's only fair when she's not working at the weekend she gets a weekend as well yes so it's usually alternate weekends and then maybe the weekend that you don't have your child you have a weekday dinner yeah um that's usually the structure then you split the public holidays and holidays so I can see it from the perspective of the other parent that you've suddenly gone from seeing your your kids every day yeah to now alternate weekends and a weekday dinner which is really very little and if your child or children is is not yet on their phones and and not able to communicate with you through I don't know text and phone calls then it is quite hard I mean you know access has to be age appropriate as well are the kids asked what they what they want at a certain age not by the court I I think the parents do ask them what they want and usually for older par uh older children parents are more are less likely to fight because the children I mean teenagers how can you get them to do what you want anyway how can you pin them down to like Tuesdays and Thursdays from 5: to 7: it's not going to happen right so at least for but teenagers also are good at making the arrangements so even if you didn't fix a time you would you could easily meet for dinner whenever yeah when it's smaller children like you know 2 3 4 5 six seven even up to age 10 it's much harder and I think that's where all the fights are because there's also in Singapore the after school activities yes and the those often get in the way of access because the parent who doesn't get the child as often will say well why is tution scheduled for two hours out of my three hours like that's ridiculous so tough so so that's tough you know you know it's interesting so my kids and I were having I don't know if it was the old I think it was all three kids um we were watching something on TV and the subject came up what happened if mommy cheated on Daddy I said how did that happen I don't know so I said well who would you if we got divorced who would you choose to live with um we love you but we still with Mommy Daddy even mommy cheat on me yeah but why do you want to punish her for cheating see this goes back to the money thing but my point is no forget the money I'm just saying I was just curious like like so for example if I cheated on a mommy they would never talk to me they' never talk to me again that's what they said but if mommy Che on me well and and so you know and I just thought okay there's clearly a favorite there it's not about a favorite I think it's just you know your bond with your mom is usually quite strong 100% yeah listen I think I'm a great great dad but Tara is an amazing mom so I can't you know I can't compete um what Celebrity Divorce have you looked at and thought that was handled exceptionally well okay I don't really pay attention to all of these things but I do as hor horrendously cheesy as it was at the time um Chris Martin and GTH palro when they consciously uncoupled uh as as I say it's a super corny term yeah I've never heard it before but they they were trying to be mindful in their divorce and I think that that is um something that people should aim for which is to be mindful in your divorce you know to know that both of you are actually going through probably quite a hard time not saying it's always the case but most of the time it's a hard time it's hard time for your kids and so just remembering that whatever you choose to do to the other person you're actually also doing to your child and then maybe that tempers you wanting to serve the divorce papers on their do do your clients say to you have you got a counselor that you can set me up with for me and for my children um sometimes they do ask for recommendations but a lot of times and I think this again goes back to our Asian Society ways is that people just don't think that they need a counselor you know they they see it as a weakness or counselors are only for people with real problems but I mean actually what's wrong with just talking to someone yeah sometimes you can't talk talk to your friends or it's very difficult for them you know your family about certain things and you do need a little bit more help but everyone's reluctant I don't I mean you pay it as you said just now you'd pay your surgeon yeah why wouldn't you pay your counselor they are there to help you and if it's not the right thing for you because honestly for some people talk therapy is not the right thing what marriage counselors have you most any of your couples have they gone through that and you've seen they've at least tried that yes I have yeah um I do know people have gone through marriage counseling I don't really talk to them about what's happened in their marriage counseling because that's not my problem I'm I'm laughing not to be not to be a bastard but so this is how I always appease my wife so for example years ago she said no all of my girlfriends have got credit cards from their husbands and I said they're bloody idiots she said who and I said the husbands so she said no you know can I get a credit card I said absolutely go to the bank fill in an application form they'll give you one right yeah and I was just so I I brought back right basically a bunch of forms I said there you go there a joint account you'll have to fill them all in and you know tarus you just looked at it threw it away but but going back to the counseling so she then said do you think we should see a m a marriage counselor yeah I said well nothing's broken unless you're telling me otherwise and she said yeah but you know if you see a personal trainer you know you you might already be in good shape but it's so I said okay let's do it you want to do it and so I called this lady that was referred to her and she said well I'd like to see you separately and Tara separately then together yeah and you know me like as soon as Tara said I thought okay I'll do it no problem met with her spent a couple of hours with her did all the homework Tara saw her we never had a couple session okay right because it it's like Lamar's class she wanted to go to LaMar's class when we were pregnant with our first baby we we got through half an hour yeah and we looked at each other and said let's go but but what was but my point is I think at least I I she sh shared an interest with me and I followed up on it cuz why I say that a lot of old school men they will not even consider doing these things right and um I actually would have gone to see because it can't really hurt yeah right and hopefully you go there and and so you don't have problems yeah I don't I think a lot of people go to counselors maybe when there's a problem I think maybe you can go before like a health check in like your annual health check up exactly yeah I exactly I mean that's probably could be done um but the reality is that yeah often one partner doesn't want to go yeah uh and then well it's it's very difficult or they're going but they're just going through the motions I've had a client say to me yeah I went for the counseling but I wasn't you know I was going through the motions to appease my partner not because I cared was committed to the counseling yeah which then I mean that already says that you're no longer really committed to the marriage I guess I'm just curious what percentages roughly of the cases that you deal with settled in court or out of court actually the majority of them are now settled out of court Okay the reason for that is because that's what the court itself encourages okay um by offering its own mediations within the court system and just because I think a lot of people don't want to waste money on their divorces which is sensible honestly why do you want to waste money fighting it's crazy it's it's actually crazy to me sometimes because sometimes when even or even if we're negotiating a settlement and they're quibbling over something like 10 to $20,000 let's just say it's that and I'm like you know what it will cost you to go and fight about this not just it yeah and then just take it as a you know a sunk cost or something and and not fight over this amount because if everything is over here we don't F we don't mediate We Don't Settle yeah and we go to court you're going to spend so much more and you'll have so much more stress yeah and it's going to be a longer journey and then that means you trans transiting getting to your new life it's being delayed you you know when I when I think about how complex the the world has become with technology I actually worry about the kids future um like Tara and I were talking about how the role of social media yes is having an influence on you know students applying for universities jobs that they look and they say well you you attended this rally this political rally and you shouldn't have done so on and so forth what role has social media had you know in modern day divorce when you when when you're doing research I think that's how people find out this is that what it was is that it oh my goodness so that's an interesting one that you mentioned actually there was this there's an Instagram uh profile that used to have Anonymous disclosures okay so people would go they might be the third person and they would then post anonymously to this um profile saying if your husband's name starts with L and he works in a company that starts with p just know that he's been cheating on you with me oh shs really yeah so something like that and you know what I mean I I found out I don't know how this came up on my explore page so I was just going through it and reading some of the most comedy and crazy things that I've ever seen yeah and then so one of those posts had come up and then someone had replied saying I think this is me like I think that that's my husband are you and I was just like mind blown crazy that's so crazy and then sometime after that the person that I read about in social media came up to me as a client and um I was really shocked jeez I mean I had nothing to do with that as then they came completely randomly it just so happened but I was shocked that I had read this and then here they are in front of me and this is really a thing yeah um it's that Instagram page I think it's not shut down but it's not really been operating lately but you know you know that I mean I guess the moral of story stay offline if you want to mess around but a buddy of mine was telling me about Tinder when it first came out one of the I think one one of the dating apps yeah and he's married so I said so why are you on it he goes yeah I said why he goes I just want to get a I want to get a feel what's going on out there but you're not going to cheat on your wife I don't think true well well it's not true it's not true it's a lie well he he told me this what he told me um but he had a picture of himself as well now it he was slightly disguised in the picture was not obvious right but it was obvious and I swear to God within I think it was within two days a mutual friend of ours yeah who was on tindo scam grabbed it and sent it to his wife and well she didn't she sent it to me okay and I called him out said You [ __ ] Bumble CL on this thing what were you expecting he goes oh I didn't think I I just I can't even get my head around it okay to be fair okay some people don't think very well Bumble club by the way for those that you don't know you means you idiot you mean gundo your way of seeing gundu um yeah I mean yeah some people are not very clever but I have found someone's husband a friend's husband on there what happens this is the thing I was thinking actually cuz I thought about this what happens if you had someone that wanted to create a profile with someone's image on it put all their Deets in there but it's not the person that could happen that could happen that's something different um you have to prove that you weren't the person cuz nowadays stealing someone's identity is not going to be difficult right yeah that that I I just think about those things I mean yeah you could prove it's not you I guess I don't know if I told you this story really made me laugh so um this is a few years ago Tara I think k was about 11 or 12 maybe 13 okay and uh Tara was away for the weekend and I said right kids you're going to do some homework and um so I thought I was been a really good dad so I said I want you to choose an article from the The Straits times Y and um show me the article and then what I want to do is underline any words that you don't understand Circle them look them up in the dictionary write down the definition of those words and want you to pricey what that article means okay so I had to explain to them what pricey means and everything so k comes back 10 minutes later there were only three words I didn't understand Dad I said okay no problem what was it about he goes well there was this article about this dating app called grinder so I looked at him I said okay and he's young right so he said so this this gentleman went to a hotel room to meet another gentleman when he got there there were two gentlemen waiting for him and then so I said press press pause because his younger sister was there so we walked away and then the guy got acrost got beaten up basically un so the moral of the story is check what homework you giv your kids and then but it was like then I had a lot of questions from him what is grinder what does how does it work right that was that was hilarious um when when you're looking at couples CU one of the things that I I study just just in terms of sports um in my job I always look at patterns Y and why I think patterns are important because you can almost predetermine ahead of time when something's about to happen right so for example when I'm driving touchwood I've never had any points since I was 18 and I can anticipate you know when you're driving oh that person's going to walk onto the street that person going to walk behind a bus situational awareness yeah it's just like that yeah but I'd look at patterns what patterns do you think a couple can identify and say ah we're going off course here we need to take stock and really identify these issues before it leads to I think it's when you're feeling resentful to the other person and you can't let go of it t Tor you listening sometimes she looks at me like she was the kill me and then you know it comes out as passive aggressive put down comments and you're putting down the other person that's it y that's what it is yeah you know it's it's interesting because um Avana uh she's nine now but last year she asked me who's your hero yes and unequivocally my my mom is one of my heroes but Tara is my hero right I just I idolize her in many ways I look at her and I think wow she's a very kind person she's a very uh Noble person she's very wise right and I what I realize is is when I speak to a lot of couples when they break up younger couples yeah I'd say that's okay right even though heartbreak is horrible because you've learn what what's not right for you yes what you don't want right so you you you you've test driven that car hope you've learned hopefully you've learned something but not but not everyone does right um but what I do say is is that you know I've said this to my son he had a relationship for about a year or so I think I think it was that long um but I said you know imagine if you'd spent 5 years of your life with that person then broke up not that you would have wasted 5 years but now imagine you've had children you get divorced yeah so I said I think it's actually not a bad thing do you know what I mean um so I like that um when when you think a little bit about going through divorce right do you think to yourself if you were to ever get married again if you saw the writing on the wall as a divorce attorney would you say I'm going to [ __ ] this guy up later on or would you sit down say we need to see a counselor I think I would go for the counseling option because I know it can be helpful yes um yes I'm not interested in [ __ ] anyone up it's too much you it takes a lot of effort I mean sometimes clients ask me to write long nasty letters and I'm just like but you know it's going to cost you more if I do that because I have to write a lot I think sometimes they don't care though sometimes they don't care but the more money conscious ones will but it's just a lot more effort to be mean to someone honestly why not just be if you know the writing's on the wall just release the other person yeah and you try and do so fairly hopefully they'll be fair to you um but I mean the better thing would have been to make sure your finances are separate anyway well I'm curious what about um clients that have hidden assets is that that is that a common theme it's not that common because some amount of disclosure is required if you going to a fight what happens if I I've got a BVI account not that I have one you come across those okay well first of all the BV BVI is becoming less yeah trans you know it's becoming more transparent now there's more requirements so it's people don't hide things in BBI accounts they just have cash sometimes or they have accounts which they don't co-mingle and it's somewhere I mean you can't find it if you never have any I mean a lot of the tracing that we do is based on the paper trail through the bank accounts credit cards where's the money going and honestly it's better if an accountant does this so the same way why would you pay your lawyer to do this math and Trace don't get get an accountant so the accountants will go through it and they will be the ones who can reveal to us whether there's an asset somewhere else or likely to be an asset somewhere else but at the same time if you're well let's say it's not your first rodeo you you might be clever enough to completely ring fence yeah some cash somewhere yeah and not touch that account and never have a trace of all your other visible accounts ever transferring or receiving then yeah we won't know we have you ever had to deal with an on in a marriage yes is that quite common here cuz I would have thought people get married prematurely in Singapore partially because of the whole hdb well okay the tricky part is that the requirements for an analment are not so straightforward okay so for example you can get an an analment if the marriage was willfully non-c consummated oh so a lot of people jump at oh they they don't see the willful part they just see oh non consummation we can agree that we didn't because it's very here to sign the marriage document but only have the wedding ceremony later on so in their minds they you know there nothing's happening they're not they don't consider themselves married until after the wedding ceremony so often they don't start living together until after R is marriage right but ROM would be the marriage document that they signed so they are technically and then maybe something happens in that period where they realize they don't want to get married any I mean they're married but they don't want to be with that person anymore yeah so they go for the non-consummation I'm like like okay but you know it's willful non-consummation which means somebody made an effort and the other person rejected that effort willfully how do you prove that um it has to be written you have to explain it how you made your overtures and how they were rejected repeatedly can't be one off oh really yeah so it's you you can't sort of get married today and decide tomorrow you want an analment you you need some evidence for that for that the other ones are um if the person didn't have mental capacity to get married okay um if they were actually married to someone else at the same time so a lot of those are very difficult more common more common than uh people think and then one of the more comedy ones is you have consummated and the person gave you an STD oh jeez yeah yeah so that that should be a consideration actually well yes it should be um but so those are the reasons analment are there any legal loopholes that people should know about when it comes to divorce there's no loopholes I thought maybe there might be uh no there aren't really I mean you you know the better thing to do is just come clean with everything and then get on get it done get on your way and just move forwards I think that that's for everything in life yeah right there's no point hiding this hiding that it all comes out and then you look bad and you might be punished then by so if you've been naughty in hiding your assets or not disclosing the court will punish you by giving more to the other person ah to make up for it so that's where the the compensation and Punishment element comes in how has Singapore law evolved in terms of divorce uh proceedings and divorce rules they've tried to make it more streamlined we're moving towards a divorce that you can do yourself um it's not been operationalized yet but the legal fraternity or the family lawyers at least have seen the new forms which are going to come out and they are very much aimed at a DIY divorce where well that's the other thing with AI just in terms of legal contracts in general yes right AI is just it's a game changer for so many Industries age I agree with that yeah it is very scary although I think it's also sometimes quite obvious if chat GPT have written yeah have written the documents it's quite obvious to see yeah um so it's it's got its you know pros and cons for sure but I I do think that a DIY divorce appeals to those who know what they want who know that they're going to part amicably and fairly and they don't therefore need the lawyer to you know fill in forms why do we need us to fill in forms I mean that's ridiculous you should be able to fill in a form yourself um we should just be here to give those who need legal advice legal advice yeah if if I know we kind of answered this before but just because I've been brought into these these four relationships yeah um if a couple that were about to come let's just say t and I came to you yes we're saying we're thinking about getting divorced we got kids y y but we don't necessarily want this as an outcome yes what would you suggest you'd you know apart from just seeing a counselor but what what kind of steps would you walk them through for example look just so you know if you go through a divorce yes I would this is what it looks like so you at least this is one end of the journey yes maybe explore what what would you talk to them about I mean I can give them a picture of what their life might look like after a divorce I can also I often do actually tell clients what life will be like during the divorce the problem is that it's one of those things that if you don't go through it you can't believe it if I tell you it's going to be emotional and hard you have no idea you're like yeah yeah yeah but you you have no idea but it's kind of like having kids like if anyone said to you well having kids is actually hard you'd be like yeah yeah yeah but you don't know how hard until you have a kid for sure so I guess it's one of those things yeah um but yeah I will go through it I will say that you know you will give me a lot of your money and a lot of your time and you will have a lot of stress and I will make you feel stressed and your spouse will make you feel stressed you will be doing all of this on top of your day-to-day life um if if you could if you could rewrite vce law what's the one thing that you'd consider changing or maybe implementing okay the only thing I would consider changing for singap for is that you have to wait 3 years before you can be divorced and in most other places you don't have to wait that long I would change that because I think it's fair so what is it in other countries like the UK so the UK it's one year yeah I think one year is enough three years is too long when I when I think about like my mom's estate is going through probate right now yeah it's just just such a long uous process and it's here it's quite fast actually I don't know about the UK I think it depends on the speed of your lawyer as well yeah yeah forget about it I'm not going to say anything but like in Singapore we do things pretty fast yeah um no I think that sometimes people who haven't lived together and then they start living together after marriage and it very quickly becomes a reality that the marriage is not for them but then why do they have to wait another two and a half years let's say yeah it's crazy it's crazy what about do you do you believe that a no lawyer divorce can happen yes have you seen it no because I'm a lawyer you've not heard of it you're not no there are people who go and do it themselves and um honestly because I practice Sharia law as well as civil law yes and and when I used to go to the Sharia courts before covid when you would be going to court more um there would be a lot of people getting divorced in in person without lawyers because they couldn't afford lawyers the problem with that is that they're not very well advised on the orders of court that they're agreeing to between each other and it may not be a problem immediately but then it becomes a problem when they're trying to affect the order of court and then a few years later they then have to lawyer up because the court order that they agreed on is just not workable not a solution it's not financially sound so that's the problem I see with that I do think that I think you can't really avoid seeing a lawyer but maybe you if you have agreed on everything you should before completely signing off on the orders just have them review it yeah to make sure that it's something that is workable and also it makes it a lot easier right the whole the steps the process the steps and process are definitely a lot easier if you engage a lawyer but it is costly if you don't mind making the effort then be by all means do it yourself but I think it is important to have a workable order of qut and sometimes people think oh this is workable but it's not what I mean obviously look there are parts of your job that are really terrible but part of it must be rewarding as well when you see good Happ when I get a good outcome yeah so what is a good outcome for you A lot of times the reason why we're fighting in court is because someone is just very stubbornly being very unfair and so a good outcome is making sure that there is a fair division that you know the the spouse who isn't able to support themselves usually the wife is able to get the maintenance they need that the children's maintenance needs are are being met yeah um that to me is a a good outcome that there's you know a fair amount of access for the parents with the children that's a good outcome do do you see any of your clients get happily remarried again they don't usually come back to me after that how do you decompress after dealing with a really hard day you know disputing things I Dr my kitties U well no I recently got some pet cats so I I do find having them around how many pet cats just I have four now only four only four but cats are pet cats are like tattoos when you get one you want another one I think they needed comp well one would not be enough because you know it would need company so you know there's a few more because I do spend quite a lot of time out of out of home yeah so it's good for them to have each other their house their house kittens right their house yeah so they they're they stay at home you know I I as you know as I like I like to do different things you know traveling or Hobbies whatever what I love about you is just you you've tried so many different things right skiing uh snowboarding yeah what what are the when you look at your cuz you know this one of the things I really about really proud of myself for doing these things because a lot of it was done I would say older in age not you know my most Adventures most adventure adventurous himself probably came out in my 30s yeah not so much in my 20s in my 20s I was not adventurous but also I was a a parent to a younger child and so the opportunity to do a lot of things is maybe less I love that about you yeah I really admire that so what what so firstly what are the things that you've enjoyed doing the most in terms of your activities like rank 1 2 3 4 I think the best thing I ever did was to learn snowboarding because that brought me into a community of a bunch of other things so I would you got to go to beautiful places it's not just about going to the beautiful places but it's meeting a collection of people who are likeminded yeah they're they're not necessarily the people that you meet day-to-day in your daily life so for me snowboard I obviously have to travel out of Singapore and because my friends are not that Keen on snow Sports it means I have to go into a a tour your friends aren't keen on any sports okay never mind I have to to go into a tour and find company because it's not something you should be doing by yourself because of the inherent dangers for sure um and so through trying to do that I've met many women because I I like to go on uh women Centric tours I I've met a I met I found a company that's amazing that that caters to the kind of snowboarding I want to do which is I need to stay in a nice hotel and and be wellfed as well a holiday absolutely it's a holiday so I don't just want to be staying in a hostel and sharing a shower and that sort of thing so it's nice to have found that and that's my snowboarding community and that I go on the women only ones because I do find that women are kinder to each other yeah um when you're on the hill a lot of us are not that good at snowboarding or we need some help some learning to progress whereas men tend to be a little bit I'm just going to bum down this hill yeah doesn't matter if I have any technique I don't need any breaks I just want to go fast women are not like that you kind of want to do it nicely and see the see the scenery you want to walk away at the end of the day as well and you know so I've met so many women um not necessarily similar in age but yes some of them are similar in age from very diverse backgrounds and now we we that's our thing we we still go on these tours we get together every one or two years in a different location we have a wonderful week together where you can snowboard as much or as little as you want but also you can wine taste go to the spa or onen or have a a taste you know food tasting experiences I went to Slovenia in um 2023 for example I'd never been there to Lake bled I you know did the saage thing which is when you do the champagne with saber and it was just so amazing it was so beautiful and the thing is I wouldn't have been able to go with my friends and I also wouldn't have been able to travel with my son there because he's not that interested in that yeah so good for you to me snowboarding has brought these other experiences and uh that would have been the best one to learn but at the moment I've become really unfit so I'm just on a fitness and health Journey it's hard right as we get older we have to really work on it um how do you get the best from yourself you know in business in a very competitive landscape like what do you do right inside and outside of the office um to get the best for myself I guess that is trying to maintain a healthier lifestyle if that's what you're asking um which means also though you know shutting off from work at a reasonable time yeah um we were just talking about it earlier about how we went to watch a movie on Sunday night and it finished late and then it made Monday a difficult day well I I admire you guys for just staying awake now I've I've become that person that yeah halfway through the movie um I do think that unfortunately you know getting enough sleep getting good food in you getting exercise is important to to being physically able to do your job I mean it keeps your brain sharp as well but also knowing that you have to balance things like your work hours are this and this is something that I try and um Implement for my team as well even though they're younger lawyers and younger ones usually work longer hours but I it's important for me for them to have work life balance so that if they are needing to spend time with their child or they're need just needing their own personal time to go to I don't mind if they if they go off a bit earlier because they want to catch that yoga pilates class yeah yeah um you know I I I know that they will appreciate it and they will feel their balance again I love it and then that will make them come tomorrow to work in a in a good State and you need that because of the demands on us because we do work with very emotionally charged people that if you don't have that balance like the problem with divorce or family lawyers is that for the younger lawyers there's a very high attrition rate yeah because unfortunately in some work culture spaces they're just seen as disposable or you just get the most that you can out of that person and when they quit after 3 years or 5 years then it's okay we can hire someone else you know you know the thing is because we've talked a bit about you know being being um managers and and it's because I tell you why you got to live it so for example went on my last trip to Hong Kong um you know Isaac and I arranged for his his girlfriend was going to join him so the flight was already paid for yeah so they could spend the weekend together get a little holiday in and then he came back on Monday and took half the day off yeah um and then actually just challenging so I said to him so young Isaac over there I said on Friday I said you know what why don't you do something bit different I said have you got the balls to do a bungee jump and he goes said right book it right now for tomorrow and he did it oh my gosh I didn't even know there was bunge jumping in h is it no in Singapore in Singapore so we did the Hong Kong thing so my point is is I'd already paid for his flight I said well you know why don't you bring your girlfriend over and then you can get a free holiday kind of yeah and um gave him a little bit of extra time off work not a lot but you know now he he had that weekend but my point is on Friday I just said let's mix it up right and um I didn't do the bunge by the way I've done five in the vain attempt to get a little bit taller oh my God and it clearly didn't work I'm still 5 six and a half have you done one no so someone told me that your retinas can detach and I was not that Keen on it but I have jumped out of a plane I know you have well that's the thing haven't done both I do think the bunge jump in some ways is a bit scary because the ground Rush yeah right um so you know I had that chat with my son I said which would you rather do he said it it was only one it would be a parachute jum and I said unequivocally yeah you did yours in New Zealand right so it's stunning it was it really stunning and again it brought I was there because snowboarding so it was cold though up there that time it it was pretty cold yeah but it's it's only momentary but it's amazing what Que in Queenstown yeah yeah and I mean I did entertain the idea of learning to to get my solo license for parachute jump I've looked into it but it's just very difficult in Singapore you have to keep traveling up to Thailand and I wasn't sure if I wanted to make monetary commitment as well um when I can get my Thrills in other ways so I know I into it so the one the place that I was looking to do it was in Norway or is in Norway cuz it just looks stunning and you can do it there like over a week yes right but you've got to be fully committed and the only reason why I wanted to do is cu I'm terrified of heights I'm terrified of height I'm actually very scared of heights like even some shopping centers with the escalator is in the middle of the build I just like I don't like that at all okay so quick few questions yes um if you could go back to any one time in your life professionally personally when would it be and why um I think like I don't know I think you always want to go back to your 20s it was the time when you had the most energy and you could do the most things and I feel like I didn't do enough like I could have done so much more but I didn't but that's that's the thing but it's a difficult thing to do to to sort of you don't appreciate it until you've lived your life that's that we you know T and I having a conversation with Kaden who 10 and 18 is you know in November so we said look we'd like to take you away and he he said no and I think he's been costc conscious I think he's overly focused on his exams but I said look when you you look back if we were in Singapore and we went to a random restaurant or had dinner here you know you won't remember it but if we go away as a family yeah you'll really enjoy it yeah so mate you we're going away so but you know what I mean you you want to learn to live life that's the thing yeah I do so yeah that's probably what I would do again what would you say are your greatest strengths and weaknesses personally professionally I think my strength is my weakness at the same time and that is that I'm just me like I believe in being me I don't want to dilute or filter myself too much well you are authentic yeah like I I want to just do it the way I want to do it be the person I want to be and then if clients aren't on board with them they can go to some other lawyer good you know if you're I I I want to do it in a way that has integrity and honesty and if you're not down for that then it's it's okay there are other people who you can pay to do it the way you want it what um I want to talk specifically about your coaching what what what are you working on now right as you as you enhance your coaching yeah aspect to what you're doing tell me a little bit about that so um I am getting qualified or working towards a qualification as an ICF coach which is the international coaching Federation although I don't believe that you need to have qualifications to be a coach I have found the course very useful and I'll be completing at at the end of this month brilliant um I just find it useful in day-to-day life like you can subtly coach people to get the best out of them it's not necessarily that it must be that someone comes to you with a problem and you have to coach them out of it but it just even even in your own self-management sometimes you can coach yourself yeah and if you're stuck in a conundrum you don't know which way to go you you can just ask yourself the questions which you which can help you come to a conclusion or even to identify how important or how you're feeling about something put yourself on a scale of 1 to 10 that's the easiest way um if I feel something about something am I at a one am I at a 10 if I'm at a three do I want to be at a five or do I want to go back to a one and how will I get there and you know what are the things I'm going to do to get there and is it something that's really important or not so you know you just sort of talk yourself through it this way I think it's it's huge right yeah and then that helps you work through it because a lot of times we are stuck in things and we don't know how to get out of it and sometimes talking to people doesn't always help it doesn't always get you Clarity but if you can Implement some of the coaching strategies you you can help yourself but if not you can call your friends who have learned coaching so you or me and then we can help you although you're not really meant to coach your friends but we try it yeah um but I think it's just that like even trying to get more out of my colleagues or my my juniors um they also suffer the same you know they get stuck in certain things they don't know how to progress they don't know how to deal with a client um and it's it's very simple it's a lot of taking a step back yeah and then just asking certain very important questions but making sure you're listening to what the person is saying to you so that you can ask the meaningful question which you know what they are it's just like how what why who where those are the questions and that's it it is it but I think it's important because if you speak to someone who's already thought about those things and it opens your whole thought process it's a GameChanger and I think a lot of people don't spend enough time on themselves mastering themselves no I don't think that people really see the importance of coaching or but that's because they don't know what it is and I I mean that was the same for me like I thought of it of a little bit hookie pokei you know and but now I can see that it has actually a lot of use and and I think that people are realizing it I mean did you know for example that the government spends quite a lot on coaching its its top levels you know so the coaches who coach who who ran the course yeah do do that okay and they're paid a lot to do that um but I think that everyone benefits from coaching you know it's not just the top levels because you're supported by so many other levels and those people also don't you want to get the best out of them as well yeah um and then that makes everything more efficient and and better it it's so important you know as as a as a former Sportsman you know as a businessman 100% how you think about things how you process them your confidence go into something the planning the prep and as a career coach what I realize is a lot of people tend to to move in their career when they get a phone call or a tap on the shoulder but very rarely is it very well thought out and I talk about that yeah listen it's been an absolute pleasure is there anything else you wanted to cover no you I was really looking forward to today's chat we've avoided we've avoided anything too risky you know well I think that's for your other chat the one we're going to film after this it's been a real pleasure thank you thank you for having me lovely yeah brilliant take care [Applause] [Music]

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