Make the Main Thing the Main Thing: John Currie's path to Success | #63

your hands were, you know, covered in bits and meat. >> You're currently a COO, chief operating officer. >> That's right. I've been here 14 years. Uh my career spanning now 37 years. I did start when I was 17. Small town called Galashields. Uh it's in the Scottish borders. There's no there's no banking genes in here at all. My dad um was almost an environmentalist. Mom was an artist. Um so the advice I got from a couple of mom and dad's friends who were bankers is just start from the bottom. having [music] to wash your hands after the butcher and the fisher paying because your hands were covered in bits of meat. Our average handling time to handle a call 172 seconds. If we could shave 1 second off that call, it would save us 22 staff. It's 150 million calls a year. Now, when you're managing people who are doing those basics, you've done them yourself. I just enjoy managing big teams of people. That's where I feel my sweet spot [music] is. I got a phone call from my boss. He said, "How do you fancy going to Singapore?" I thought, why not? Worst possible thing that can happen is you end up back where you were. What's wrong with that? 14 years and I've no intention of leaving anytime soon. Make the main thing the main thing. I was taking over a team from a previous manager and the manager said to me, um, this is Michael. This is Barry. And just to warn you, but Barry's gay. >> He said that. >> He said that. >> Jeez. >> My mind was blown. If I can create a safe space >> Yeah. >> for Barry, then there's lots more Barry's. I've got the pride strap on my watch. Um >> and I have been a chair of the board of Pangamon. I would have been a roadie working for [music] >> John welcome. How are you? >> Great Paul. Great to be here. >> Oh man, it's good to see you again brother. >> Yeah you too. >> Now for the few people that may not know you and before we unpack your fantastic journey can you give a quick intro as to who you are please? >> I'm sure there's plenty of people that don't know me. Firstly Paul thanks for having me. It's great to be here. I've watched a lot of your podcasts. I've been enjoying them. Uh, and interestingly, I counted at least four people that I know that have done this already. So, really, it's nice to >> Who are they? Well, Theresa, you were kind enough to >> Theresa I introduced you. >> Yes. >> Mustafa I used to work with. >> Yes. >> Uh, Raza I used to work with at at Pangmonium. >> Correct. >> Uh, and there was one Tim. >> Tim works at Pangmonia, of course. Yeah. Our associate director. So, >> yeah. >> So, tell us give us a quick intro on you. So, I've been here in Singapore almost 14 years. Uh, originally from Scotland. The accent will tell people that. Um, so yeah, I've been here 14 years. Uh, my career spanning now 37 years. Can't quite believe that. >> Scary when you say out loud. Right. >> Exactly. Uh, [clears throat and cough] although I'm going to age myself here. I did start when I was 17. Didn't go to university straight from school. I went later, but not straight from school. So, >> okay. >> Um, yeah. I've been in banking all these years. predominantly a back office operations behind the curtain person, which is where I like >> and uh and I've been very lucky. So, yeah, that's >> But you're currently uh COO, chief operating officer. That's right. That's that's your bread and butter. I'm going to suggest you pull the mic a little bit closer to you just in case. Isaac, is it all right? Just just just in case. So, I love talking about people's childhood and and how you know that shaped you. So, growing up, where did you grow up in Scotland? Tell us about what what your childhood looked like. >> Small town called Galashields. Uh it's in the Scottish borders. 12 14,000 people it was at the time. I think it's down to 10,000. So >> really, everyone's moved out to the major cities. >> Practically a village just south of Edinburgh. About 30 miles south of Edinburgh. So Edinburgh was our closest big city. >> Okay. >> Um uh what was my childhood like? Fun actually. Um my best friend James, him and I are still best friends. We had an hour on the phone this morning. So amazing. 95% of our life we've been best friends. >> That's beautiful. What is he doing back home? >> So, he's now in Australia. He's been in Australia for 20 years. >> Oh, you told me about him. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> So, James and I spent a lot of time together getting up to all sorts of mischief. >> Yeah. I can only but imagine. >> And you can imagine we spent all the time on our bikes riding around the borders. Uh very few buses down there. We don't want to trouble our parents with car rides. So, that was our independence. The the BMX gang. Yeah, I love it as it used to be. So, yeah, lots of time outside. Borders is a beautiful place. Um, >> so yeah. >> And what were you into? Were you into sports? Were you into outdoors? Growing up in Scotland? >> Cycling for sure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. James and I did a lot of cycling. >> You know what? I had a look for those old BMXs. You know, the one with the yellow rims. >> Yeah. >> And inside I would I would spend quite a lot of money if I could get a decent one. >> The Rally Burner. >> Yeah. Beautiful. I never had one, that's why. And I always wanted one. Did you have one? >> Yeah. >> Did you? >> Yeah. We both did both one of those back in the day. >> Flipping hell. >> Thousand years ago. >> I thought you were going to say maybe had a mongoose. Remember those as well? >> Yeah. >> It was a It was like I But the rally for me was it was it was quintessentially iconic of our time. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. No, we both had one of those. >> I don't know if you'd fit on one now. You're a bit too big and tall for one now, right? >> I think I might break it under the weight. [laughter] >> So then and then So tell us back then. So you finished school. Why did you go to uni later? What happened? >> So I got some advice. I knew I wanted to go into banking. It was something that interested me. >> Why? How? Because I'm I'm always curious when people say that. Did you didn't come from a family of bankers, right? >> No. No. My dad um dad was almost an environmentalist. He worked for uh when I said about the borders tweeted tweeter purification board. So, okay. >> He was almost an environmentalist long before his time, keeping the rivers clean and >> um you know, keeping stopping farmers stuck shoving stuff in the river etc. So, so he did that. Mom was an artist. Um she was an art teacher. She went to Glasgow School of Art. So there's no there's no banking genes in here at all. Yeah. Um maybe I was attracted just by finance. I just found numbers interesting. Yeah. >> Um >> so the advice I got from a couple of mom and dad's friends who were bankers is just start from the bottom. Just go straight in. >> Uh you can go to university. Um but actually getting those ground skills from the ground up. So and I'm talking the ground up. >> Yeah. being on the cash um yeah having to wash your hands after the butcher and the fishmonger paying because your hands were covered in bits of meat etc. Um, so it started then, but in those days you did your bank exams. Yeah. So you actually did I mean my first two years I did day release. So I did I worked Monday, Tuesday, at college on a Wednesday, worked Thursday, Friday. So you actually got a day off a week. >> Where was this? In Edinburgh? >> No, in in Gal Shields in the Yeah. Um so so you did that for the first couple years and then eventually that took you on to associate of Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland, member of the Chartered Institute and then eventually did a a course at uni which was a conversion course which got me my degree but years later but in the same time I was earning so I could afford a car at 17. It was a tiny 850 mini but I could afford a car gave me independence. >> I mean in Scotland you need it right? >> You do. Yeah. Um and learn the basics from the ground up. So now when you're managing people who are doing those basics, you've done them yourself or you've done most of them yourself. >> But you know, you know, I was going to tell you this. I should have I never told you this before. I think you're almost born into the wrong part of banking because your personality, even though obviously you're you're a fantastic COO. You could have been front office, no problem. You've got a massive personality. You love engaging with people. Did you ever cons contemplate making that move? >> Yeah, I did. And actually a close friend of mine who we started in banking together, he went the front office route. I went the back office route. Um >> I just enjoy managing big teams of people. >> Yeah. >> I that's where I feel my sweet spot is. >> Yeah. >> Um I'd rather sell the benefits of back office to front office than sell >> you know front office to our clients. It just feels more natural for me. >> Makes perfect sense. So then so then let's unpack your journey. So you've you've now finished at uni. What what were your ideas? What were your options? Um so I was my my first organization was was on a no-names basis one of the uh main banks in Scotland probably one of the two doesn't take a lot of guessing but >> um >> one of the first opportunities I got was actually a management development program which was very much akin to the graduate development program but you had four rotations at various different areas and and one of the rotations I went to was our outbound call center um and that was really my first experience of managing bigger teams of people. Um, and that that for me was just a a trigger and a pivot in my career to I love managing a bunch of people doing stuff. >> Yeah. >> And that one was outbound call center. There was actually collections that were phoning people with bad debts, etc. So, not the most pleasant job. >> Nasty job. Yeah. >> And necessary. >> How long How long was each rotation? Was it six months? Oh, six months. Oh, solid then. I think I think that's a great grounding for you to truly understand the whole banking arena and then working out what you want to do. >> Yeah. Um no I did six months in marketing, six months in the call center collections and audit that I was an auditor for six months really which gave me fantastic lesson in audit but taught me that I didn't want to be an auditor for the rest of my career. >> It's better you found out after six months versus six years. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um so that so that call center experience took me when I went back to Scotland took me into um call centers at that time and I ended up um loving that role, loving working with the team uh eventually running my own call center um you know 24/7 operation 500 in the team. >> Wow. >> And when that was you know when a call center is buzzing >> Yeah. >> it's a great atmosphere. Yeah. >> I mean that and call centers these days are almost a thing of the past. >> Yeah. >> You know as people move online >> when we were growing up it was it was the big thing. >> Yeah. That's how you you know between that stage of everyone used to go to a branch and now everyone picks up their phone that bit in the middle. >> Uh that's how people did their bank. >> It's madness. If you think about it now if you had if we had told you back then listen this is going to be a blip you know on on the radar of your map you wouldn't think it would be so short. You know what I mean? It's so interesting how things change and grow and then how did you realize very quickly that you were really well suited enjoyed the back office and the operational side of things? >> I think um I enjoy I enjoy process. I enjoy amending and re-engineering process and particularly in retail. I've been in investment banking now bizarrely almost half my career now, but at that point retail was my focus. And I think what I find so fascinating is I likened it to a dashboard with knobs and and you could just tweak one or two of the knobs and it just just makes stuff very slightly different. So to give you an example, >> our talk call center talk average handling time 172 seconds. The number >> I love that you remember >> the the number still in there. >> Yeah. So our average handling time, so the normal time it takes to handle a call, 172 seconds. If we could shave one second off that call, it would save us 22 staff. >> So crazy. That's the kind of volumes, 150 million calls a year, etc. >> But then in the in the flip side, if if front office or or or we wanted to do something different with our clients and talk to them a bit longer, >> it also allowed you to scale up. So, you know, something that one of us wanted to talk to the the clients about and it's going to take an extra 5 seconds on on every call. >> Yeah. >> That's 100 people given the scale. So, so I love that um making really small fine adjustments to the process >> and they make a huge difference. Huge difference. >> But I'm just curious cuz I'm I'm like you. I'm a technician. I love analyzing these things. But when you first were thinking of doing that and you're bringing it to your bosses, I'm going to analyze call time and stuff like this. It's going to make a huge difference. Did they get it straight away or you had to persuade them to understand it? Because before you did the analysis, you don't know, right? You don't know exactly how much you could shave off it and what would be the return on investment. >> Yeah, I I think I think they did and that's probably because we had the right leadership and the and I probably learned some of that craft from them being fair. >> Um but just that metricsbased approach. Yeah. But then also understanding >> it's also people you're dealing with. So, so that that balance of the metrics are really important, but you're not running a factory. You're you're running uh you're running people. >> Yeah. >> Um and of course, some of those best process improvements will always come from the people doing the job themselves. And that's the bit I find really fascinating. You know, I remember a technique that I used then and I still use it to this day with when I get groups of people together. Start, stop, continue. >> I love it. >> The most simple, you know, this this is thing leadership is not rocket science. Yeah. And the people that make it rocket science are probably time to talk themselves out. >> Well, I don't want to put you on the spot, but we've, you know, when we've had a couple of drinks, we've talked about different techniques, and you've taught me a few great ones on sales and what have you been your observations. Can you share a couple of pearls of wisdom on what you've learned and observed about sales? >> Um, yeah. I mean, I mean, one of my roles was actually a sales trainer. So I stood up with a flip chart as it was at the time and trained trained others back in the day trained other people to sell. Um and you know there's all the models of the spin technique and yeah but for me the sales was so there's two things >> one first stage of sales process you know this Paul establishing needs yeah >> asking the right questions um uh but I think also you know the one thing I remember is people buy people first >> yes >> you know sell your product before you sell your price >> so you know the these kind of um and they're a bit glib some of these uh some of these phrases But it's it's making that connection with the individual, really understanding what they need. Um, and making sure that you don't try and punt a product that that isn't relevant. So, you know, when I was doing those sales techniques, that's what we always taught. And then not forgetting no sale is ever done until you do the close. >> Yeah. >> So, ask for the business. >> Yeah. >> And I guess that's now, you know, so whether that's me >> asking for resources in a call center or asking my bosses now for something that I need. Yeah. you know, you've got to ask. You've got to >> you've got to create the environment where >> they're ready to say yes, >> but you've also got to sale. >> I I think most people they they overlook it because sales has a a negative connotation. And it doesn't matter if you're a school principal, you know, or you're the COO, we're all selling at some point. If you're married, we've all got to sell at some point. And asking is the definitive way of doing so, right? >> Well, here's here's here's the thing about sales sales versus service. We used to um one of the exercises was tell me what good service looks like and people would talk about um oh I was in a garage and the guy that was selling the car he was great because he did this and he did this and yeah but he also took 30,000 off you and you bought a car. No, it was great service and then if you tell people what was bad service, they tell you when they're being hard sold to. >> Yeah. >> So actually if you do it correctly, it just feels like good service. >> Yeah. >> You know, I love that the person's still selling your product. >> I love that. I call it the art of selling without selling because I think beyond the initial hi how you doing the reality is if you if you've demonstrated trust you're advising you're also talking about the pros and the cons of whatever you're talking about you know you don't need to BS the person it goes a long way what I'm curious about is you are a man with a lot of integrity a lot of kindness um your your thought process are very diverse where did that come from was it your parents was it growing up in Scotland you know cuz I find it quite rare. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I I don't recognize myself >> in that cage. >> But let me let me explain to you why. One of the reasons why we kind of became friends from my side anyway was our shared mutual love for for example theater. >> And you're big strapping young lads, right? Who who's going to think that you're so involved in the theater? And that's one of the key reasons why we got talking. Um, and then your, you know, let's talk about your a little bit about your watch and what that represents. >> Um, okay. So, I'll I'll start. Yeah. So, you've >> or the strap >> you've recognized that uh I've got the pride strap on my watch. Um, >> and I have been involved in the LGBT community a lot over these past few years. I guess that started um it was actually one of my jobs. So, I was taking over a team from a previous manager and the manager said to me, um, he introduced the direct reports and he said, "You this is Michael. This is Barry and just to warn you, but Barry, he's gay." >> He said that. >> He said that. >> Jeez. >> And I was thinking I was a bit taken back, but >> and listen to the language that was used. >> I'll warn you about Barry. He's gay. >> Yeah. >> And that [laughter] that just I was my mind was blown at that. So, >> did you did he call him out on it or you were just still processing it like 10 minutes ago? And and if it had been today, I would have called them out. >> Of course, >> back in the day, I didn't. And that was wrong. Oh, >> in the '9s. >> Yeah. '90s. '90s naughties. Yeah. A long time ago. >> Yeah. >> Um >> things were very different back then. >> Yeah, they were. And so, you know, on that base that that stuck with me. >> But guess what? Barry wasn't out in the office. >> Yeah. >> No one knew, but everyone know knew. And and that just felt wrong. So anyway, Barry was my direct report. >> Him and I actually spent a lot of time in London together. I was I was working in Edinburgh. We would fly down to London every few weeks to see our front office counterparts. >> Yeah. >> Um Barry was a fabulous technician. Um he really knew the product and the system supremely well. So we spent a lot of time, you know, I would go as the department head, he would go as my number two. >> Um and when you're on business trips together, you go out for dinner and you share stories, etc. I always made sure that I created I didn't uh I didn't gender Barry's partner. I always talked about they them. >> Yeah. Um, and I knew because you'd heard the chat that Barry had a male partner, but you know, so I I wanted to create a comfortable space. One day, Heathrow Express ready to come back up to Edinburgh Friday night. What's your plans for the weekend? Normal conversation. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and he said, "Oh, it's my it's my partner's 40th this weekend." >> Yeah. >> Um, him and I are going out for dinner. >> Yeah. >> That was the first time he'd ever said >> So, he felt comfortable. >> Yeah. And I felt a huge privilege that that I'd created a space that he felt comfortable. >> Yeah. >> So for me that was as as a leader if I can create a safe space >> Yeah. >> for Barry then there's lots more barriers. >> Yeah. >> So that kind of drew me into it and I just got involved with the community and and now I've run pride from a previous firm. I started a pride network at my current firm and there have been lots more stories of that where people have felt genuinely comfortable to be at work. And guess what happens to Barry's productivity, to his performance, to his output. Yeah. And I'm delighted to say I took him with me to the next firm I moved to. >> He's now running Pride for that firm. Um I think he still is. >> Yeah. >> Um it's because so many people I' I've worked with so many senior guys um that they've struggled with it. And when I first came across it, I um created and implemented flexible benefits for a bank and one of the CEOs in the bank homosexual. And I said to him, "Look, should we create samesex insurance cuz you don't currently have it?" He said, "That's a great idea." But the amount of resistance and I've I've placed a guy in a bank and one of the HR directors said, "Uh, cuz I asked, "Do you have samesex insurance as different bank?" And she said, "Why?" And I said, "Well, you know, he's a homosexual." She said, "How do you know that?" I said, "Well, I I just know." And she said, "Does the hiring manager know?" I said, "No, never came up. We never discussed it." and she actually said, "We don't hire that type here." And I said to her, "Are you serious? Are you you serious? You just said that?" And um and that that was HR. And it kind of staggered me and I just said, "You can't say stuff like that." And uh but it was quite it was quite funny cuz she doesn't know, but there were quite a few gay guys there. She probably clueless, but it is interesting. And then theater >> and therefore she's missing out the best talent. Well, she she just >> if if you want to automatically take out that percentage of the talent pool, >> be my guest. >> But there are talented straight people, there are talented gay people, there are talented women, there are talented men. If you want the full breadth, >> I the best. >> You're going to crack up. So back in the day um I used to provide silver service wine way to sue chefs to the Institute of Electrical Engineers in central London embankment just next to the Seavoy Hotel and I was managing like up to 150 staff and we needed to hire some wine waiters but mainly silver service staff. So I be became a badly qualified silver service waiter just so I understood it. And I said to one of the guys there, I said, "Look, I need to hire some silver service stuff very quickly. How do I do it?" This is back in the days, right? And um he said in the in the late 90s, he goes, "You need to advertise with the Pink Press." And I said, "What's they said?" It's a newspaper. You know, most catering staff will be in there. So I didn't know what the Pink Press was. So I advertised. I got the Pink Press. It's a gay paper. I had no idea. I'm walking down the street on a Thursday evening with that under my arm as you do. And I was getting wolf whistles and I was thinking, mate, I must be looking sharp today. [laughter] I had no idea. Um, but that was pretty funny. It was pretty funny. And then theater, like, how did you, cuz I I studied acting. I always wanted to be an actor. I was a thespian. But how did you fall in love with that? >> I've always enjoyed theater. Um, particularly musical theater. Okay. Uh, so how I got involved? Um, my love of theater or with pangdon? >> Well, both. We'll start with theater and pangonia. >> Yeah. No, I've I've just I've always enjoyed I used to enjoy live theater. I think live theater these days is even more important because you can't press pause. >> Yeah, I love that. >> And you can't press fast forward. >> I love that. >> Um, you know, how often are we watching >> YouTube or podcasts? >> How many people are forwarding this podcast as we speak? >> Yeah. Um, and you can and you can press pause, you know, that's that you're there and you're with it and it's it's in the moment for sure. >> You're in the moment >> and that's very special. >> And then how did pandemonium come about? >> Well, actually there is a LGBT connection here because my previous firm uh we used to be one of the sponsors of Pink Dot in Singapore. >> Yes. in 2016 uh foreign national foreign companies couldn't sponsor Pink Dot which we've you know people will have read about in the press etc. >> Yeah let's not go there. >> Um >> but my firm wanted [clears throat] to basically use the budget that we had for for something different. So um one of the people at Pangorium approached me to see if my firm would sponsor Tango um which is a is a um a play about LGBT themes. and it's now it's it's gone around the world and it's been uh shown elsewhere within the world. Um so they we did we we were the presenting sponsor for that. We filled the theater with 600 people from the LGBT community. Um it ran and yeah I was hugely proud of the work that my previous firm did for >> Pangmonium. So on the back of that I got um to know Adrian and Tracy >> uh the founding founding members of Pangdammonium. Adrian and Tracy Pang. Um, and they were in need of a board member and they they said to me at the time, "We'd be hugely privileged if you came and joined our board." And I said to them, "You'd be privileged. [laughter] I would be privileged. I love the work that they did." Um, >> yeah. >> So, I I joined the board and I was treasurer for five years and then in the last year, year and a half, I've taken over as chair of the board. So, >> well, one of the first nights we went out, I said to you, I noticed they've got um a doll's house showing. I said, "So, you invited me to the opening gala night." you know, I self-invited myself and I sat next to you. It was a great evening. >> And Tim Tim directed that play and and how I know him because I placed his dad and um and he's got a great story because, you know, he went to NYU. He was a he's a theater director off Broadway and they've given him an opportunity to come here which in Singapore is so rare because you know growing up in the UK the thing I love about the UK um any night of the week you can go and watch a great fringe theater show whatever you want whatever you want and there's just that huge cultural element and here it's been a little bit more limited and I think gradually it's changing um but for me I I remember I used to go and watch plays at the National Theater once or twice twice a week. I got a student discount and I'm I was just I was blown away cuz if you look at some of the very best actors like Denzel Washington's one of my favorite actor he's a he's a stage actor first and foremost you know what I mean? So I love that. Um talk to me a little bit about your professional philosophy about leadership. >> What's your approach? >> I always like to remember that [clears throat] leadership is a behavior not a job title. It's powerful. Um, you know, it's about how you turn up for work. It's about what you do for your people. >> Um, you know, you see leaders and maybe more managers that someone gives them that title and they think they should change. >> Um, whereas I much prefer to think of, you know, leadership is it's a behavior. It's it's doing the right thing for people. Um, at the same time, I [clears throat] think there are people who I guess there's different degrees of how people like being led. Um, and it's also remembering that your team that you're leading aren't a team. They're a bunch of individuals and they have individual needs and on day-to-day basis those needs change and what they need from you on a day-to-day basis will change. And I think that the more that you can remember that you are leading a team but it's a team of individuals with different needs on different days with different circumstances and uh [cough and clears throat] I guess different problems they have and if you can adapt quickly and and you know your your point about doing different things maybe I have a very low attention span or maybe I uh enjoy >> but you ask you ask questions. I think one of the things I've noticed is very very senior leaders maybe because they manage so many people they stop seeing the individuals working for them as people right it's like there's a piece of machine equipment to get the job done and we're all under pressure as managers but you know one of the things about you why why I love our friendship is because you'll ask how you doing what's going on you know what I mean and being there for one another I think as a manager as a leader that's that's got to be at the heart of who you are because we all come to work to provide for our families. You know, when you're managing people to go through ups and downs, I was doing some coaching with this guy the other day and he told me he doesn't care. I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "I don't care if someone's wife's got cancer. I don't care for this or that." I said, "Really? How can you call yourself a leader?" >> And he said, "Yeah, but I just don't have time." And I said, "Look, I completely disagree with what you're saying. I don't know if I can actually coach you. I can't get you to change this fundamental thought process. No one's going to go to war for you. No one's going to really stand by you when you're going deep into the trenches. And he he looked at me like I was an idiot. >> And surely it's as simple as and again this is my point about I actually think this is very simple. You look after your people. They look after the process. >> Yeah. Simple. Yeah. Goes a long way. Um talk about some of the leaders that you look up to. And I mean I was thinking because one guy who I respect so much who who is a little bit on the edge of both ways is Alex Ferguson. When you look at Alex Ferguson who's a quint quintessentially hard tough no Scottishman but the one thing is even look at David Beckham even David Beckham got kicked out Manu but David Beckham still loves and adors him right now and I don't think Alex Ferguson can exist in today's world but you know I really admire guys like that I I like the old school but who are some of the leaders that you look up to and you think look they did it really well. So, one um [clears throat] one of my leaders in my first firm um she could be very hard and harsh, which I think is fine. And I think, you know, >> without going textbook, situational leadership, she was great at situational leadership when stuff needed to be done. Yeah. You know, this is the this is the the the fire drill. When there's a fire drill, you don't get the flip chart out and start discussing which exit to take. [laughter] You know that situational leadership is everyone needs to get up and get out. >> Yeah. >> And that's appropriate at that time. Whereas back to my facilitation of process improvement that is in a meeting room with a whiteboard or whatever you know your your method and that is about discussion and connecting with people. Um but one thing that she said to me very early in my career was make the main thing the main thing. >> You told me that you said that when we had dinner with Neil and it had a massive impact on him. >> That's right. I've forgotten about that. Um, and for me that that's about if if the team know what the main thing is. >> Yeah. >> And you can make that clear and you can articulate that and they all then you've got one vision of what you're actually setting out to achieve. >> So if that's a call center taking calls or if it's a account opening team opening accounts or whatever that is, make the main thing the main thing. Yeah. And don't get distracted with well we could do this and we could do that or we could do it a different way or you know and that's about sense of purpose and clarity. Then within that how are the individuals contributing to that? >> Yeah. and what's their particular skill set and what's their you know how can they contribute but but I think too many teams get distracted with million and one different things that so yeah een's words to me >> very powerful >> many many years ago >> how did your move to Asia come about >> uh I'm always curious when people make that move because it's for for a lot of us like you know and I know we've a lot of our friends never left and maybe have never even come out to Asia on a holiday. So, I'm But I always find that nomads like you and I, we there's a sense of adventure. >> Yeah. No, I think I think that's definitely it. Um my I got a phone call from my boss when I was back in Scotland saying, "Can you come down to my office? I want to talk about an international opportunity." And in the one floor down to his room, I was thinking New York, New York, New York, New York. [laughter] Uh, and then I walked into the room and he said, "How do you fancy going to Singapore?" And I was disappointed probably for about two seconds. >> Yeah. >> And then I thought, "Why not?" >> And you'd never been at that point, right? >> I'd been I'd actually No, I had just had I'd been on one business trip. >> Okay. >> Um >> Okay. >> So, I'd actually been in Singapore 2, three weeks before this really this conversation. Um, but I remember going from disappointment that it wasn't New York >> to all of a sudden why not, you know, carp sees the day. >> Yeah. >> Um, just give it a go. On reflection, best thing that ever happened. Yeah. >> Because moving from, >> you know, at the time Edinburgh, London to New York would have been a different culture. >> Yeah. >> But let's face it, it's one western culture to another western culture. >> Yes. Moving here has taught me so much about different styles of leadership, different types of people. I mean, Asia for me is now home. >> Yeah. >> You know, 14 years and I've no intention of leaving anytime soon. >> Yeah. >> Um but just the the breadth and of course the different cultures in Asia. You're not you're not managing crossculturally. You're managing multiple >> cross especially in Singapore. That's the one thing I love about Suna is Rojack, right? There are so many different What I love is when you go to a hawker stand, you'll see the Indians eating Chinese food, the Chinese eating the Indian food. There's a real mix. >> That's my actually my family's rojack. When you look at I'm half Chinese, half Irish, my wife's threequarters Indian, quarter European. It's just I love it. Um and then when you arrived here, did you did you work out very quickly I think I'm going to stay. I'm not going home anytime soon. >> Yeah. Yeah. The minute that you realize that your two-year assignment is starting to run out, >> Yeah. >> you think, I don't want it to run out. >> Yeah. >> So, what did you do? Did you Did you How did you stay on? >> I extended. That was it. >> It was as simple as that. You know, boss said, "Do you want to extend for another two years?" And I said, "Yes." And then the next job comes and then the next job comes and you know, before you know it, you blink and you've been here 14 years. But no, I love the environment. >> What what I learned in Singapore, I always say this, but I always mention it because you'll get it. It took me and I moved in 01. It took me seven years in Singapore to learn yes was actually no, right? And then after that you quickly learn okay Thailand, Indonesia, Hong Kong there are different nuances and how you handle yourself has to you have to adapt a little bit in each. Um, talk to me about what's the toughest lesson that you've learned from leading large scale operations and teams across borders on that point cuz it is different. >> It is different and I think um the lesson is you never never stop being a translator. >> I like that. >> So it's not about learning the language. Sure. Like you know we've all learned a few words in a few cultures. Um, it's always nice to say please and thank you. But I think realizing and this is, you know, if I can if I can talk about my western counterparts. >> Yeah. >> They, you know, I had I had one person once saying, "How's the weather in Asia this morning?" And I was like, >> "Yeah, >> they just don't get it." >> Yeah. >> You know, and you're a translator east to west, but you're a translator between India and Singapore, Singapore and Malaysia, >> and Malaysia and Hong Kong, because all those cultures are subtly different. >> Yes. uh are massively different in in many ways and remembering that you know our western counterparts and be that be that London or New York or Toronto or wherever they are sitting um if they haven't lived and worked out here you know to use your phrase rojac they don't know the variety >> um and they don't so you're >> you're constantly making sure that you're representing your team well but importantly if your team represent themselves and the western person doesn't understand. It's about contextualizing that and the same and the same in reverse. >> Yeah. >> So that you're you're melding those two communities together. I was when I first came here, I was in a a conversation with >> a local Singaporean and one of my ex-colagues in Glasgow >> and I could tell that they couldn't understand each other's accent. So I ended up translating English to English. [laughter] from a strong Glaswegian accent to a strong Singaporean accent. But actually then then you see your value in actually bringing cultures together because it's more than just accent. >> Yeah. >> It's outlook and it's you know to your point about Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Um but I find that utterly fascinating being able to see things from multiple point of view. I I I think if you look at us, right, I think um cuz I was born and raised in London, but at the core of my DNA, it's really very Irish, right? You know, I've got and and I think the Kelts, there's something very special. You know, you between the Scottish, the Welsh, and the Irish, they've got one thing in common historically. They hate the English. [laughter] Um but I've always found the warmth. Like I told you, one the first time I went to Scotland, I went out I went to a bar in Sterling. I was at university and no one let me buy a drink all night. I I couldn't they didn't know me. It was just it's just Scotland's different. And I've been to Scotland a few times and and and each time I've done it I've done a solo trip because not everyone has an appreciation for it. You you just drive up through Gleno. You drive you're in the mountains, you're in the middle of nowhere and you just take it in, right? You go back on a pilgrimage. We got to do a whiskey tour there. But you go, you know, so when you go back, do you do you go to different places or you you have to go home? >> No, I I go home to see friends and family, but >> you know, I I love I love Scotland and and actually this year we're probably going to do a slightly bigger tour. We're going to do a bit of a tour around. And you know, when the weather's good in Scotland, it's the best country in the world. Yeah. >> Summer's fantastic. I think last year it was a Wednesday. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> But that's >> Wednesday afternoon. What are you talking about? >> Afternoon. No, but it's it it is a stunning country and whilst Asia's now home and at the moment I no intention to go back to Scotland. Um probably more of intention to to go to my wife's home of Malaysia eventually. >> Um but Scotland will always be home. Um and I think we do pride ourselves on our you know despite being branded as tightfisted >> I think we are very generous when it comes to hospitality particularly. >> I don't I don't feel that way at all. Really don't. and my some of my best friends are from Scotland and they've got great stories. Uh talk to me a little bit about the parallels that you draw between theater leadership and the finance world because the two are very different but you found a way to to bring your skill set across both. >> Yeah. And so, you know, full disclosure, when when I started on the board of Pangmonium and particularly taking over as chair, >> yeah, >> I've still got imposter syndrome. What what would I know about theater? But then actually realizing that you don't need to know about theater. What the board brings because it's an IPC, it's a registered charity, it's governance. >> Yes. >> And actually the the governance or I'd call it all the boring stuff. Um because rightly so an institute of public character when they're taking uh donations from donors and taxpayers money from from government there should be accountability about how that's spent. >> Yeah. Um so actually the the governance that you're used to within the corporate world, conflicts of interest policy and reserves policy and all these kind of things are actually skill sets that um you can bring to the the theater world and complement the creative skill sets and the artistic and the direction and the production skill sets. So, so rather than overlap, I think there's actually some really good synergy um you can bring. >> You know what I love? Because in the world that you and I live in, we're dealing with kind of invisible numbers that you never really see. >> Sometimes you'll see what the product ends up being. What I love about theater, you can you go there and you watch it, you experience it, and for great for great productions, you go away and you'll remember it for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? It's it's so, you know, it's crazy. Talk to me about um one of the things you said to me before we did this that you don't think is a big thing, but even in the time that I've known you, your fitness journey has been an interesting one because we've all been there, but you you know, you and I sent each other videos of us lifting weights and stuff. It's like how did how did that journey begin for you? >> Uh a good friend uh said to me and he was very insightful. We were talking about um so my fitness used to be a lot of cycling. >> Okay. Uh, probably more walking, but I always used to like out. >> How tall are you? Let everyone know how tall you are. >> 186. >> Yeah, you're a big unit. >> So, six foot one in a bit. >> Yeah, you're a little bit taller than me. >> 6'2" when I used to have hair. 6' one in [laughter] a bit now. Um, but he uh and he said, "You know, how much do you spend on your health?" We're talking about what you spend your money on. Um, >> that's a good question. >> How much do you spend on your health? And it was it was quite good. So, he said he he's a he's an ex uh Tim, great guy. He's an ex um ice hockey player. >> Oh, really? >> So, he's broken every bone in his body. 10 times. >> Tough guy. >> Um, and he's a just a strong guy. So, he he used to go to the gym. He said, "Well, come to the gym and I'll introduce you to my personal trainer." >> Um, so I went once. Um, and I would say I was hooked. I absolutely wasn't. It killed me. >> Um, >> at least you're honest. >> But at that point, I thought I'm going to have to sign up for a pack of a a package of 10 personal training sessions in Singapore. Yeah. Only four or five years ago now. >> I said if I don't, I'm not going to be committed. Yeah. Um, so I did the 10 sessions and then I signed up for more, etc. Um, but you know, one having a good connection with your personal trainer I think is really important, but two, I just started to enjoy and I wasn't a gym. I didn't enjoy going to gyms. My idea of exercise, walking, cycling is outside. >> Yeah. >> Um, but then that uh, you know, particularly that the only person you need to be better than is the person that you were yesterday. >> 100%. and the whole philosophy of personal best and and now my wife and I have this joke about, you know, how many PBS today, how many personal best. >> I love it. >> Um, and it's that constant, you know, you can just increase one plate at a time. >> Yeah. >> And then you can increase one rep at a time. Yeah. >> And it literally is I did I did one yesterday. So, um, hammer curls yesterday. >> Yeah. What were you curling? >> So, I did 24* 7 yesterday and last week was 24* 6. >> Good man. >> One more rep. And my last rep was a disaster. >> Doesn't matter. >> I was waving about it all over the place. >> Doesn't matter. >> But >> and you feel just that one. But you psychology of that >> you feel so good about yourself. And one of the things it's interesting I've been asked by people in the past like why why should we work with you? How do you differentiate? And I always say we deliver well how do we know that? And I and I you know like for me um who I am as a sportsman, as a fighter, it tells you everything you need to know about me because there's no end in sight. Do you know what I mean? I'm I'm there. I'll do it. I'm working out. Um, and I'll wind some people up like I'll send them a message at 5:30 and I say, "Where are you, mate? Get in the gym." >> But it's it's, you know, you could hear people saying, "Oh, it's it's about the discipline." >> For me, it's actually just about the challenge and the fun. >> Yeah. >> You know, there's days that your your body says, "No, I cannot be bothered to go to the gym." You know, so most days, >> most days, >> once you're there, so yesterday was a good a good a good case in point. I really wasn't up for it. But then something grabs you when you're there. Um, and you know, I joked with my trainer about, you know, get the phone out and film me cuz that's a good motivation. I'm not going to fail on camera. >> That it works. >> You literally just And it's just that knowing that last week you did six reps, this week, just try seven and then suddenly you'll surprise yourself with eight. Just beating yourself is huge. Yeah. >> You know, you see the thing is like my uh my wife hates me posting me exercising. I said, "Why?" She goes, "Well, you know, are you showing up? What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, look, if you are an artist and you've painted a picture, are you going to talk about it? Are you going to Yeah. You know, you're trying to sell it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm trying I'm sharing my journey. And if I can motivate, inspire one person." And there's been a lot of people that I've inspired and helped. And And it's also who I am. It's just it's no different if you go scuba diving and you post a picture with your mates and you're out, you know, or you're underneath and you you've seen a manta ray, you're going to post pictures. But the the the other thing that I think a lot of people don't understand, >> interrupt you, I'm not there yet. This body is not it's not an artistic creation. >> It's getting better. No, but listen, I've seen pictures before and after and it's you you've lost weight in your face, your shoulders have got a lot bigger and it's we've all got I always think children, you're a dad, you know, all children have at whatever level a musician, an artist, a sports person in all of us. What happens as we get older? It kind of it goes like when was the last time you drew? But when you're kids, you drew every day, you know, it it disappears. And and I I also think cuz I suffered from depression quite badly and I had I realized there was a period of my life where I stopped working out for 10 years and I was reading books on depression and happiness and you know things weren't going well in in my personal life and and I realized mate first and foremost you're an idiot. You've stopped working out. And one of my friends Andy who's a Scottish guy he was getting married and I hadn't seen him for about 6 months and he had lost so much weight and I said wow you look amazing. what's happened? Tell me everything. And uh he said, "Well, I got a personal trainer, you know, before the wedding." And I said, "Okay, can I meet him?" And his name is Mike. And I met Mike and you said a lot of chemistry. We became really good friends. And the thing is, listen, I know how to exercise. This guy is a technician. But it's your the commitment. You're spending money. >> You don't want to let him down. >> If you cancel last minute, you're going to lose the money or you should lose the money. He never would let me. But I' said, "No, no." And and it's just that accountability. Do you know what I mean? Agree. And then it back to yourself. And now how I motivate myself because I haven't had a trainer for a long time is I imagine my mom and dad have passed on that they're watching me and I want my I want my dad to say that's my boy. He's he's doing I want the kids to know. And it works because my two older kids, they're they're specimens and it's now on autopilot. You know, like when we were talking, I heard my daughter going out the door. She's off to basketball. My son's, you know, he's in ridiculous shape. is is what a journey. Tell me about your your your son now because his journey and is just so inspiring and what he's doing now. >> Yeah, so I've got two kids. Um my son uh a son and a daughter, a pink and a blue. Um my son uh qualified last year with photography, first class honors. He worked hard for class. >> First class. He deserved that. >> Um and he's now creating his own business, carving his own way. He's hustling, which I'm really proud of. Um he photographed Pierce Morgan recently. He's CV is now um you know Nike, Birkenstock, some of these big brands. >> And how old is he now? >> He is uh I should be able to tell you instantly. Was 2002 so he's 23. >> Yeah. >> What an amazing start he's had. >> Yeah, he's and he deserves it cuz he's he's hustling. He's working hard. Tell tell us what your definition of hustle is because for me it is one of the it's the bedrock of anyone that's successful, but most people don't really identify with it. >> Yeah, he's he's going out and getting his own connections and getting his own leads. So, he's got an agent. >> Yeah. >> But um you know, he'll he'll follow people on Instagram and he'll follow the right people on Instagram and then he'll send them direct messages. >> Love it. and he'll just make sure that he's front and center and when they've got a job, he'll ask for it. Again, it's back to that. >> Can you can you send me his link later? >> Absolutely. Instagram. >> Yeah. Um >> tell him the sec the the second sexist ballman in Singapore is going to be over there in Scotland next time on there. I want him to take some pictures of us. >> Uh and it's great seeing him develop like that and just, you know, start his own business. And I'm and I'm hugely proud of both of them. you know, my son is is carving his own world on a very entrepreneurial way. >> Yeah. >> Um my daughter's a nurse in pediatric A&E. Um and again, she's doing she's doing great. >> It's a hard a lot hard work >> and but if you look at how different they both are in career choice, uh >> you know, nursing it's a vocation rather than a career. You know, you have to really want to do it. But >> the stories that she tells me, I mean, she's literally saving lives and it's kids lives. It's it's it's hard work when you see >> the two of them and it's it's what's most motivating for me is seeing how different they are in their career choice, how different they are in their approach. >> Yeah. >> But both equally successful in what they're doing. >> Beautiful. >> It's [snorts] hard being a parent, you know, the ups and downs of it. This year, this year has taught me a lot. And I realize, you know, when kids are young, I pre-teen, it's it's a hell of a lot easier. >> Yeah. >> Can you agree? Two nights ago, my daughter had 50 kids in this house, and I think they were leaving at 3:00 a.m. There were dead bodies all over the place in the morning, but it was like, good for her. She was 16. She had the confidence to pull everyone together. I love it. >> Well, my house is 10,000 km from where they live, so I don't have that problem. [laughter] >> Um, talk about your personal reflections when you look back and um what's taken you to where you are, your level of success. I would imagine a lot of is consistently challenging yourself. Talk to me about how you're challenging yourself because you you strike me as someone who's never turned away from, you know, an opportunity. You're always looking to step up. >> Well, again, a cliche, everyday is a school day. >> Yeah. >> So, um, recently I've signed up or I will be signing up for a international coaching federation to become a coach. >> Fantastic. You'd make an amazing coach. And I [clears throat] think I will. But that's why I want to do the learning because you know to use that. So back in our day the three Rs of learning reading, writing, arithmetic. >> My three Rs are reminded, revealed, and reassured. [laughter] >> So when you learn a new skill, um it might be the fact that you're reminded about something that you've that that used to do. It could be that you're reassured that what you're actually doing is right or something could be revealed that it's brand new knowledge. I think when you learn it's actually good to keep that in mind that uh we all have some background knowledge but you know I've been coaching people at work I think quite well for years >> I might be doing it all wrong >> so I'm really looking forward to learning that skill >> can you send me the link on that federation because there's so many it's the international one right >> yeah the ICF and then it's delivered by a number of different providers in Singapore and globally >> but the bit I'm most curious about I'm curious to learn but I'm curious curious to see if I've been doing it right all these years or if I've been doing it wrong. Hopefully from the people that have coached they feel I've been doing it right. >> Yeah. >> Um but to me that's a you know always be humble enough and never be arrogant enough to think you know all the answers so that when you go through the learning um and I and I do hope all three Rs are there. I do hope that >> I am reassured that I haven't been butchering it for years, >> but at the same time, I hope to learn a new technique and make my coaching even better and hopefully bring more benefit to the people that I'm coaching. You know, coaching is an interesting one because I think, you know, we we can't be everything to everyone. Each like like with your personal trainer, that has to be a special bond and a relationship. Well, I I think people don't spend enough time and money and resource on personal development. I just think it's so overlooked. And when when I there are some people that have said to me, "Look, can I do some coaching with you?" And now as I the longer I do it, the real the more I realize I've got to be very careful in my time because I I I don't want to do that much one-on-one coaching. Um because it actually is it's time consuming beyond the hours that you're doing it, but also it's quite emotionally consuming. And what I realized going back to that guy earlier, I should never have wor never never worked with him, but it was I didn't know him. The company paid me and and it was it was a little bit difficult. And I said to him, "Do you read? Do you listen to podcasts?" He goes, "No." And I said, "Okay, why? I don't have time, but you're up every morning at 4:00 cuz you're worried with work. Let's break that down. Let's analyze it." And then I said to him, "Do you go for a walk?" go, "Yeah, why don't you listen to a podcast or or listen to an audible?" >> And he kept making excuses and I at some point you're going to run out of excuses, mate. You got to shape up, bro. You know, I won't work for you. It was a nightmare, but so interesting. Um, if you could go back to your younger self, y >> with what you know today, or if you were to talk to your your your kids, what advice would you give them about a life and b work? >> If I could uh Yeah. speak to my 16-year-old self. >> Yeah. So I want to be genuine here. I would actually say don't change a thing because changing anything meant at this stage I would have some regrets >> and I don't I don't see the point in regrets. Every decision you make helps you make the next one. >> Yeah. >> Um and yeah, there's maybe things I would look back and think I could have done better, smarter, faster, whatever, but the the more that you dwell on that >> Yeah. So, I would actually say just go and do exactly the same thing again. But knowing actually if you if you reran that book, it would go in a different direction. >> Well, you could you can it's easy to get lost, right? But I think hindsight is 2020. But I do think now why I ask myself that question, why I ask you that question is I want to help the kids make informed decisions. But what I realize is there's no point stressing about it because they don't bloody listen to me anyway. They've got to fall over and get up on themselves. You just got to be there to help them sometimes. >> Yeah. And I think without um appearing to be a transactional dad rather than a caring dad, I actually think >> coaching slashmentoring your kids is much better than telling them. Yeah. >> Because they are their own individuals. If you adopt some of the >> and it does sound very technical and transactional to you know be a coach and a mentor for your own kids >> but actually if you want them to develop me best and get the most out then you know you said earlier about asking lots of questions. I would much rather ask them lots of questions than give them advice. >> Yeah. >> Um because they've got it in themselves. Everyone's got the answer within themselves >> 100%. >> And if you're able to tease that answer out to them >> Yeah. versus, well, I tell you what I would do. Well, well, I'm not you, so why, you know, I've never been a nurse and I've never been a photographer. >> Yeah. >> So, [clears throat] what do I know? >> Yeah. >> They have now between them that experience about what works and what doesn't work. >> So, my my role is to tease out of them where do they want to go next and how are they going to get there and what what could they use and what goals are they going to set themselves and what resources have they got available and that to me is more important. unpack the imposter syndrome that you mentioned earlier and how you have ensured that it doesn't restrict you or prevent you from trying things because a lot of people have imposter syndrome uh be comfortable with it and embrace it >> you know so back to when I said about the the four rotations on that management development rotation one I'm out my depth I don't know what I'm doing I don't know why I'm here 3 months later I kind of get it I'm learning a bit and I'm doing Okay, rotation two, I'm out my depth. I don't know why I'm here and I don't know how to do about it. 3 months later, oh, I've kind of understanding and I'm I'm learning. >> Rotation three, day one, I think I'm going to feel out my depth today. Guess what I did. [laughter] >> So recognizing that when you start something new, this is how it's meant to feel. >> Yeah. >> Feeling lost is okay. Feeling like you're the most useless person in the room is okay. [laughter] Feeling like you have a huge amount to learn is okay. So it's almost learning to be uncomfortable is the is the lesson >> that is it >> that I would learn and >> and then embracing it. So >> embrace it. >> I'm going to try something new. So when I arrived in Singapore >> and you go to a supermarket and don't recognize the foods or don't see your common brands or you're in a hawker center, no idea what to choose, then thinking this is okay. This is meant to feel like this. So the the skill in learning isn't to learn the new skill. It's to learn the fact that you're going to be uncomfortable until you learn that new skill school. And that uncomfortableness is is actually fabulous. And then it becomes exciting. >> And then you think, I'm going to push myself out my depth >> cuz I want to feel uncomfortable. >> You know, it's funny. I I always feel that embarrassment is one of the least explored emotions and I've leaned into it. It's like very difficult to embarrass me and uh I've got the opposite problem because I try. >> You can try. You can try. I'm sure you might get there eventually. But what what I've always f I'm different. I'm cuz I'm delusional. I I I think I can do everything. I know what my weaknesses are. I know I can't be a brain surgeon or whatever, but it but and I've tried to analyze why and where. And it I think it's grown up with my dad being a builder and you know, he never really taught me properly. I mean, most of my observations were from my dad how not to do certain things or uh but he would like I remember one day he said to me, "You need to cut a hole in the wall. There's the disc cutter." and um just measure it up and you know mommy and I are going away for the weekend. They were going to go to to buy some you know boating equipment and I said okay cool. So you know I'm getting ready. I spray everything. I'm getting all ready measured the door and I start going to town. [snorts] It's red brick. Red brick dust goes all over downstairs. I mean this place is a mess. Now, dad hasn't told me anything. And the truth is, he probably would have done the same thing. So, I didn't put any plastic sheeting up, nothing. And the place is destroyed. I'm thinking, And I'm like 15, 16 maybe. Um, so I took my pocket money out and the first thing I realized, I've got to repaint downstairs. So now, one of my principles is rational deductive logic. Always work out working backwards what could go wrong. Had to buy some sheet. Had to do everything. did the whole flipping thing and I realized I could do and they came back and they didn't know the difference and what annoyed me was they mom smelt the paint and I said, "Oh, I painted around the the" and then I eventually I told them what happened cuz I thought I'd get into trouble but they couldn't tell and I thought I'd done such a pucker job it looked better than it did before and they couldn't tell [laughter] but it is it is interesting. Um let's do some rapid fire. So, professionally, what is a the best piece of advice that you've ever received professionally and b what's the best advice you've ever given someone? >> Uh, I'm going to go back to what I said. Make the main thing the main thing. >> Okay. >> Realize what that is and focus on it. >> Yeah. >> Um, the best bit advice I've given, I had once had someone say to me, "You know what? I love when you coach me, you don't realize you've been coached until half an hour after." And I think that's important. leave people not thinking that you've just taught them something >> but you've just helped them. you know where I went wrong early on in my career before as a coach but as an owner of a business like years ago people recognized what I did but three or four years later and typically they might have already left the company and I thought yeah mate this doesn't work this is three or four years too late you know what I mean but I think it's known where the person is in their journey and their life cycle >> um have you read any books that have made a great impact on you is anyone that you can think of I'm curious >> so news flash I don't I read books. >> Okay. >> I [clears throat] read a lot, >> but I'm slightly dyslexic. >> And actually, >> a book scares me. >> Me, too. >> So, I read tons of articles. I watch tons of podcasts. I listen to podcasts like you say, but I was just thinking when you said there about >> the guy who doesn't read books. >> I read one book in my life for my old grades back in school. It scared me so much. I've never read a book since. But I could read a magazine cover to cover. >> Yeah. >> I could read and actually that's where the internet really helps because it's all bite-sized chunks. But you see, but the funny thing is, think about it. What's the difference? I always say I read three books typically at the same time. >> When I say at the same time, not literally, but like over the course of, say I'm going away for a week, I'll read a couple of chapters in one book, another book, or another book. And I'm very dyslexic. And I don't know exactly, but I think my wife can read probably five times faster than me and have a better understanding of the text that she's reading. And I used to hate reading because it scared me. But what I found because we all we all like are you auditory? Are you visual or how how is it? But the thing I love about reading now is I can go back and underline things, revisit it. So it means I take a long time to read. Okay. So like but what what apart from the quintessential questions podcast, what podcast uh do you listen to a lot that you enjoy? >> Uh I'm a bit of a geek. So I [clears throat] like technical stuff. So I like um Beyond the Grid. >> Okay. the F1 podcast because it gets into the nitty-gritty of aerodynamics and you know all that kind of stuff. I actually prefer the podcast of the engineers in Beyond the Grid rather than the drivers. Um >> uh there's one called the B1M, >> okay, >> which is all about engineering projects and building bridges and [clears throat] >> um all that kind of stuff. So So I enjoy that. And then I'm a bit of a car nut, so I love podcasts on testing cars and all that kind of stuff. I love it. So quite quite technical probably [clears throat] very different from the day job. >> Well well talking talking about technical so I was listening to the uh high performance podcast with I think that's what it was called with Boris Becker. >> Yeah. >> And he was you know he he coached [clears throat] uh uh Novak Jovovic and they were saying who would win in their prime Jovovic or or Boris Becker. He said no would win. And when he became his coach, he had lost his number one spot to Nadal. What I found really interesting was he was he was still winning a lot, but they analyzed how he was winning. He said that you're taking too long in the matches. >> So by the time you get to the final, you're actually already very tired. >> So you're winning behind the baseline. So you need to get to the baseline >> and make your matches more efficient so you're less tired going into the final. It sounds very simple, but it was clear. here. And the other thing he said was you need to perfect your serve because your serve is your only shot in tennis where you're not reacting to your opponent, right? So you need to spend some more time and you listen to things like that and it's very simple. Then you can apply it to any any part of your life. Um and what I find is a lot of people are not curious and I think when you're curious you you just learn you pick up things through osmosis, right? >> [clears throat] >> Um, what is a quality that you think every business leader really should have? >> Can I give you two? Integrity and timekeeping. >> Timekeeping. Love it. Yeah. Most people um, really pisses me off. They message me. We meet at half one. They'll message me at 1:30. Hey Paul, I'm running 20 minutes late. What the hell? >> What time did you ask for me to be here today? And what time did I turn up >> on the dot? 12. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 100%. So, it's it's um I I'm a big one and I I tend to turn up early and I think we've even talked about this once. If I've got a big meeting, say in Hong Kong um in in the morning, I'll probably I I will arrive certainly the day before. If I'm going to a place, I will go and check out where I'm going cuz you know Murphy's law, something will go wrong on the day. If you never been somewhere, go and bloody check out the place. >> It's just courteous and respectful. >> Exactly. >> You're respecting the individual by turning up on time. >> Yeah. might sound very old school. >> No, man. >> It's about respect. >> I'm with you 100%. I love that. Um, what's the first thing you look for in someone when you hire or you promote them? >> Uh, that they don't look, sound, or behave like me. >> I love that. >> Don't Don't employ people that look like you. Don't employ people that, you know, employ difference. >> What a great answer. >> So, you're saying I could or couldn't work for you because we're bold? [laughter] No, but it but it's >> the team is made up of diversity >> 100%. >> Um, and it's what I love about the region here that we >> in my team you've got all sex, color, creed, religion, you you name it, it's difference. Yeah. So, employ difference. >> Yeah. >> And employ talent. I try and employ people who look, sound, and behave nothing like me and are smarter than me. It's quite easy to find people that are smarter than me, but if you surround yourself with talent, >> yeah, >> um >> it it goes a long way. >> You know, Niga, who you met earlier, when I went to I interviewed her, she was only 21. Part of her job was to get involved a little bit with the the podcast and you know, I said, "Look, the studios in my home. Um it's you you know, I need you to come to my home and stuff." and I know she's 21 and she comes from a very traditional Indian family. So she moved here when she was 16. So I said I would like to meet your mom and dad. I want to invite them to the house so they can see the setup. They can even come and watch the first couple of podcasts. So they're there and which I think really was very impactful for her. And I always say that the universe reveals itself in different ways. So literally the very next day I bump into her, her mom, her dad and her sister and I'm with my youngest daughter of Anna in Holland Village. I've not been back there for about five years. They've never been there before. And then you know and I said that I don't ask to meet with you and they and you know she'd obviously told them. So I said feel free to come around the house and that just gave the mom and dad so much peace of mind cuz I've got kids and look the reality she's an adult but she's only 21. She's a weas. She's never worked properly before >> and I love that about you as well. Um, >> what's your productivity hack? And I know you've probably got a dozen, so give me a few >> cuz you're very efficient. >> Uh, [clears throat and cough] leave Friday afternoons free to clear your inbox. >> I don't meetings on Friday afternoons. I love that. >> One, cuz people don't like meetings on Friday afternoons. >> Yeah. >> And two, you go into the weekend with a clear inbox regardless how busy the week's been. So going home on a Friday with an empty inbox, one >> allows you to have your weekend >> beautiful and not think about it. >> And two, you come in on Monday, particularly in Asia, you come in on Monday to clear inbox. >> Yeah. >> Um because on a Tuesday, you've got all the overnight emails from London and >> Yeah. >> New York and >> it's piling on. >> Yeah. >> It's that's a great one. Well, the other thing about you is you just you're very savvy about things. Well, we went out for dinner and you said you get this this many points on this car and this that and I'm used to that stuff. I love my air miles hacks. >> But you but is that cuz you you had to sit down and you do the research. You have to, right? >> Well, when I said about geeking out podcasts, so the points guy or one mile at a time, >> all these hacks for air miles, >> I go back to UK once, twice a year. Yeah. >> Why would you pay for a flight? >> Flipping hell, mate. I'm just useless. I'm useless at this stuff. If you weren't in banking and you think you were to pursue an alternative career, what would it be? >> I'd be a roadie. >> Really? >> Yeah. 100%. >> 100%. I love So, when I was at school, I used to run school disos. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, [laughter] lighting, sound, all that kind of stuff. I used to set up and >> What were your top three go-to songs back in the day? >> We're going to give your age away now. >> Definitely going to give Mage away. Has to be Nightboat to Cairo by Madness. >> Okay. >> That was definitely one in the day. Uh more more recent, You Can Never Get Away from Insomnia by Faithless. >> Oh, nice. Uh, I'll just do that as the top two. No, but but I would >> anytime I see a big stage sound setup. Yeah, >> I get excited. So, I would have been a roadie >> working for whoever setting up these big concert arenas that >> Well, it's nice. Well, and you you live opposite the um >> stadium. >> The stadium, so you can listen in and when when whoever's playing, you're there. >> But if I go to a big a big concert, I'm always looking up at speakers lights. >> That's so cool. Yeah, that's uh >> I love that. Um >> very different from banking. >> Well, it is. What's a risk that you felt that you took in your career that you felt uncomfortable with at the time, but it paid off? >> Coming to Singapore. >> Okay. See, I don't even see that as a risk though, but you did at the time. >> It's not knowing how good you're going to be in an environment that's completely different. >> So interesting. >> But it is. I mean, it is an opportunity. >> Yeah. Um, >> I guess the the the risk is no risk because it's a two-year assignment. >> Yeah. >> Worst possible thing that can happen is you end up back where you were. >> Yeah. >> And what's what's wrong with that? >> Well, you know, when I when I speak to younger people, I always say to them, if you get the opportunity to travel abroad for work and go and live abroad, take it. Because what will happen otherwise there's nothing wrong with you if you stay where you are but you and I can both go back to a bar that where we grew up and we might see someone at the end of a stool at the end of the bar sat there and say John I haven't seen you for a bit. Yeah mate I've been gone for 15 years. Do you know what I mean? It's I always just think trying new things it's and travel just gives you so much right. You learn so much about yourself and the world it never looks the same again. >> And acknowledging that to do that much travel and to work overseas is a privilege. Yeah, it is. It truly is. Um, >> what's the favorite play, the best play that you've watched yet thus far? >> Rent. >> Okay. Loved it. >> Yeah, I just uh it was probably one of my first with Pangmonium and it just made a a big impact. Just >> I loved everything about it. >> Do you know you're talking to the best most undiscovered actor in Singapore? That's me. And I'm putting it out there, Adrian. I'm ready to rock and roll. I I'll I'm I'm ready to rock and roll. So remember that. >> As we say in Singapore, noted with thanks. [laughter] >> Don't put it in the box and not forget. That was my little pitch. Um if you could have dinner with three people, famous people, dead or alive, who would they be? Let's let's imagine actor, artist, sports person, whatever. Who are you going to go go with? >> Okay. [clears throat] Number one, because So number one, I'm gonna invite my wife. >> Oh, okay. Well, we'll give her that. No, you got to go with that. Seriously, because >> I love dinner parties and I love being the cook, the chef. >> Yeah. >> And I love >> But she's front of house. >> She's front of house. And actually, I wouldn't want a dinner without her there because I think she completes us. >> So, I'll be in the kitchen and she'll be the host. >> By the way, I'm waiting for one of your steaks. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Noted. Yeah. Okay. >> So, I really enjoy um what we have together in terms of hosting. >> Beautiful. >> So, that's two out the four of us. >> Okay. >> Um the other the other two um who would I like you know talked about Pangemonium. >> Yeah. >> Famous actor and wellrespected director in Singapore. We actually have a lot of fun with Adrien Tracy for a dinner party because they are really good fun. they're if you look for global superstars um names that everyone recognizes but actually um and and then not talking to them about theater but talking to them about something else. I enjoy that. >> I don't know Adrian but I've seen him multiple times getting on on the same flight. I don't know if we're going to Hong Kong or whatever but there's a charisma about him you know and he's he's a stylish guy but he there's a there's a charisma about him. I have to say I really I'm looking forward to talking to him one day. Um, how do you recharge? What do you do to reset? Cuz >> Tik Tok [laughter] >> is that what floats your boat? >> Uh, no. I So, actually, uh, my wife's son and I when, you know, when we do go to bed at night, because she's been translating all day, she's Malaysian Chinese, she likes to watch Chinese drama, so she doesn't have to translate. >> So, she'll be on her side of the bed watching Chinese drama. I'll be in my side of the bed watching some geeky YouTube channel on some technical engineering and that helps us recharge and actually spending, you know, being comfortable enough to spend lots of time with them but not having to interact, I think is a is a great way to have a relationship. So% the two of us, >> you know, she has a phrase, go and do your own thing. >> Yeah. >> But we do we literally do our own thing, but we're so we're together, but we're doing our own thing. And that I think helps recharge respecting her space of she's done talking English for the day and needs to listen to some Mandarin or Cantonese. >> Yeah. >> Um I'm done talking banking for the day and I need to look at an engineering project of a tunnel. >> So that's how we recharge. >> You know, you know, it's funny cuz the last time we went I think the last time we went out we went for a cigar and a whiskey, right? >> And there there's something about that where you can just be quiet. We were relaxed. We were just chatting crap. were just enjoying enjoying that time together and I and I think that a lot of couples because people always say because I don't know about you got you and son but my wife and I are so different but we are we want to be together that's the key so so we can be as you said doing different things reading different things and I absolutely love that talk to me about >> when you said just that point of cigar yeah >> one phrase and I I said this last time we met that I love about a nice cigar is it's a commitment to cuz they take an hour to smoke. >> Yeah. >> And I don't have, you know, maybe I have one cigar every month. Two month. >> But when when you sit down with someone and you put your phone down >> Yeah. >> and you've got a glass of wine and a cigar. It's very much like this is Paul. It's a commitment to say, "I'm going to spend the next hour talking to you." And these days in our fast-paced life with social media, >> it is that it's just a commitment to time. And I like that. Well, you know, the the one thing that I've uh I enjoy about our time together is who doesn't enjoy a nice steak with a bottle of wine or maybe two and um and then to finish off the evening like that. So, John, listen, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. Thanks for showing part of our COO series. It's a treat for me. Thank you. >> Thank you, Paul. I've really enjoyed it. And thanks for hosting. >> Pleasure. Cheers. >> [music]

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