Lawyer by Training Recruiter by Design: Ashish Raivadera | #71

I'm a lawyer by profession, 27-y year vet of Singapore. I arrived in 1999, but have only ever worked in legal recruitment in Singapore and at various points for agencies myself for 11 years. My wife got the opportunity to come to Singapore. We got married in September 1998. Literally 3 months later, we were here. The first thing I did was try and go and make a community at the cricket club. I wasn't in love enough with the law to want to re-qualify here. So I ch I took the opportunity to to do something different. I fell into recruitment or recruitment found me 27 years ago and I didn't think I'd be in recruitment for 27 years almost by accident rather than by design. I'd had a little flirtation with recruitment in London. You know during a summer I'd worked with Robert Walters I think trolling through in those days in the mid '90s the newspapers looking at you know who'd graduated as an accountant and getting on the phone basically and saying this is who we are. Can we put you on a database? I got to wear a suit every day and it felt like a proper job. >> You've got a an office full of killers. Female killers. You're the only man in the office. >> I am indeed. Yes. And they're all brilliant. An office full of very very impressive women who, you know, are at the top of that game. Dead Poet Society. >> Oh yeah. >> Um perhaps for the wrong reasons because you know the the whole idea of Carped DM and seizing the day. I'm sorry I got emotional but that's that's who I am. That is who you are. That's Listen, that's all right. If you don't cry on this show, then I'm failing. Do you know what I [laughter] mean? >> Ash, good morning. >> Good morning. How are you? >> I'm great, man. How you doing? >> Good, thank you. >> When did I last see you? Two days ago in the office. >> Yesterday. >> We work on the same floor for those of you that don't know. So, can you give a quick intro as to who you are before we turn back the pages of time and unpack your wonderful career? Yeah, I'm I am a uh what 27 year vet of Singapore. I arrived in 1999. I'm a lawyer by profession um uh trained lawyer by profession but have only ever worked in legal recruitment in Singapore um and at various points for agencies myself for 11 years and then I set up the Singapore office of agency in Africa um almost 10 years ago. So this year is our 10th anniversary. Wow. Yeah. November. November will be our 10th anniversary. Congratulations. >> And you've got a an office full of killers. Female killers. You're the only man in the office. >> I am indeed. Yes. And they're all brilliant. Right. I mean, I I look I I there's a lot of women in my life generally, right? I've got three daughters. Um an outstanding wife and then um you know uh an office full of very very impressive um uh women who you know are at the top of their game. >> Yeah. very charismatic and all very lovely. I wouldn't want to mess with him by the way. Do you know what I mean? >> Um now before we go back to your childhood because I want to start there but I just people have got to immediately think how does a guy go from being a lawyer >> never having practiced to becoming a legal recruiter because I always say people fall into recruitment. It finds you. You don't find it. I think that's true and I think it found it kind of it found me and I I did fall into it um almost by accident rather than by design. um you know I was a lawyer in London for 5 years. is I was a high street practitioner in Islington and um as a 27y old 28-year-old um it wasn't the job for me as a 56 year old it might be the job for me now that kind of role um because it was >> um very very very client facing but the kind of client that I was dealing with um there are a lot of emotional issues right I'm dealing with people's housing issues or um benefit issues or asylum claims or people that are in jail and need help. Th that's the kind of real life. >> What was the tube station that you were closest to? Was it Angel? >> It was Hybrid Islington. Okay. Tube station and Angel was at the other end of the road. Yeah. >> Um and at at one point for 18 months, my I walked to work. So I lived on the Hol Road if you know it. >> Yeah. Well, so then what happened after that? >> So, so my wife got the opportunity to come to Singapore um with her business. She's a or she was a financial journalist writing commodity reports um you know for for a business part of read elard um one thing about us is that we don't make we're not very good at making strong decisions uh reflective of my life I think but we um we decided that we were going to come to Singapore um you know kind of give it a go. Had you had you guys been out before? >> No. So again, she was in publishing and they don't give her a look seeie, right? So it was kind of you're either going or you're not. And so we got married in September 1998 and by January the 4th 1999, literally 3 months later we were here. >> Wow. >> And I remember it vividly because we stayed at the on Scots Road in the old um Ascot service departments and it rained. It was basically raining and I think my wife and I looked at each other and went, you know, what have we done here? Why are we here? >> Yeah. >> Um, and she went straight into work and I didn't have a job and I I became a tourist for a little while. The first thing I did, virtually the first thing I did was try and go and make a community at the cricket club and try and try and make friends at the cricket club and try and join the cricket club. um which which was a which was great for me because um I'm not the best cricketer in the world but I was good enough and um that's been central to my life in Singapore and central to my community. >> Yeah. >> Um and but it it's also where I met our first boss in Singapore and um you know >> is that how it came about? So you met Shaki there? >> That's I met I met Shaki there. >> Wow. >> You know I was introduced to her because she was playing net ball there and >> I didn't know that you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So um so I met her there and and um I I hadn't even So I'd had a little flirtation with recruitment in London, you know, during a summer. I'd worked with Robert Walters in in summer um essentially I think trolling through in those days in the mid '9s the newspapers looking at you know who'd graduated as an accountant and getting on the phone basically and saying this is who we are. Can we put you on a database? It was that kind of basic. >> Yeah. >> Um and it was in Covent Garden, right? and I got to wear a suit every day and it felt like a proper job in between, you know, studying finishing, you know, graduating university and doing my professional exams. Uh, and >> and you probably would have enjoyed just being based in Coven Garden. >> Just being based in Covent Garden. It was fantastic, right? And I got to wear proper shoes and a suit and a tie, [laughter] you know. Um, and I love that suit. Uh, and >> where did you buy it from? >> I bought it from a shop in Leicester called Christopher Scottney. And remember? >> Yeah. And it was a kind of dark green brown. >> That was the style. That was the style back then. >> Magnificent. I love that suit. It was just so well made. Um and uh yeah. Anyway, >> um and a pair of proper, you know, proper brogues and like churches possibly or something. I can't remember what it was. >> Love it. >> Um and I, you know, I enjoyed I enjoyed that time. um I carried on to finish my professional exams, qualify as a solicitor and then when we got to Singapore um that was an option you know I didn't want it to I didn't want it to make I didn't want to make it the option but so I did explore the idea of law the way that law works in the UK is ever so slightly different to how it works in Singapore or at least the kind of stuff that I was doing in um in the UK uh and that's a very domestic market here um and I quite frankly Paul I wasn't in love enough with the for >> um to want to re-qualify here to want to work you know start again um so I I took the opportunity to to do something different right I took the opportunity to think about other things I was not yet 30 um and there was a good opportunity for me to go and do something else and you know my wife was working and we had a a kind of very small expat package and stuff so >> and and shi potential >> you know so a lot of people won't know that I've known knew since 2001 roughly thereabouts cuz that's when I moved here and uh so I joined an organization that you initially had worked for and I saw your name over everything because I I I didn't know this but I was taking over the legal desk >> and there was no one there but your name was everywhere and I can't remember when I first met you but then then we became friends very quickly and I've got to thank you because uh you you you you made me feel good >> you know it was a tumultuous time because I lost my uh job at the end of 2001 because it 9/11. >> Yeah. >> And then we there was SARS. And then kindness is is something that, you know, to me is often overlooked, but it it it resonated with me. So, I'm really grateful for that. And then the funny thing is a story is that Kush, who is uh my ex- business partner, dear dear friend of mine, we all worked at the same company, but you weren't there at the time. He used to tell me cuz he's from Leicester. Uh yeah, you know, Paul, there was this guy who's an Asian guy. He was the first head boy at the grammar school Kush got into and I said how the hell did you get into a grammar school taking the piss out of him and but he'd mentioned you about three or four times not knowing who you were not know I didn't know who you were and I don't know it came up years later that did you didn't know that you knew each other went to the same school right >> no cuz he was he was in my brother's year so he was two years younger than me um and yeah I didn't I didn't know >> so you'd known Kush for years many years until until I kind of we connected the dots Yeah, >> that's amazing. So that so take us back. So you grew up in Leicester to a family of doctors. >> Yeah. So I'll take you one step back from that. So my um you know I'm a Ugandan Asian, right? So my family um my father was born in Uganda um of Indian parents. My mother was born in Bombay and they met at medical school um and my they met a medical school. They got married. Dad got on a flight like a day later or two days later went back and set up a practice in Africa and Uganda and put mom on a boat and you know six weeks later or what however long it was mom ends up in she ends up in Kenya and then overland to Uganda. >> Wow. Um, and we lived a great life, I think, in, you know, I was born in ' 69 and in 72 we were refugees, right? We arrived in the UK as political refugees, asylum seekers. Um, >> and sorry. Um, and we, uh, set up a life, right? Um, folks ended up in Cardiff or in in in a place in a little Welsh village called Murtha. Okay. >> Um, and then we went to Leicester, um, which is where I grew up. So, I was 3 years old, four years old when we arrived in the oldest. >> I'm the I am the middle one. My I have an older sister and a younger brother. >> Okay. >> Um, and yeah, we just kind of, you know, we lived a life, right? We we um were very fortunate. Mom and dad were doctors. Um, and then that kind of took us into, you know, we we had um we were comfortable um in a, you know, in a little village that's now a part of, you know, a suburb of Leicester. Um, >> were you were you the only non-white people in the >> We were we were a handful of very very Well, I I think I was probably one of two actually. >> But if you go to to the main part of Leicester now, you know, there will be more brown people than white people. >> Yeah, absolutely. So So, and you know, I love that I love Leicester for that. It's desperately multicultural. Um, and um >> Well, we're both we're both the children of migrant parents. Yeah. You know, that's the wonderful thing about the UK. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, and there's a whole, you know, we can have a conversation about that separately because I've got [laughter] various opinions on that, right? Um, but, >> but yeah, no, I love Leicester for its multiculturism. Um, >> and I, uh, yeah, I grew up there. My, as I said, in primary school, I think I was one of two kids, and that doesn't include my brother, so maybe one of three kids um, who were in primary. Uh, and then I was lucky enough um, to get to the grammar school, you know, up in Lurra. My parents were working in Lurra. What how did that get determined? Did you have to do the equivalent of 11 plus? >> Yeah. So you did well acade because I I wouldn't have done well enough to get into the worst school let alone a grammar school. So that that's how you were identified early on. >> Yeah. Look, I you know I I I have never been um the cleverest tool you know in in the box. But um I had parents that you know Indian parents right that they focused on our education. >> Yeah. Um, and it gave us the tools to be able to to go do those things. Um, and I think they recognized that if we were serious about a profession that they we needed some, you know, we needed a different I think they wanted to give us the opportunity. >> So the grammar school is in LRA. >> Yeah. >> And your daughter's in LRA. You need uni. Full circle, right? That isn't that amazing? >> Yeah. >> And she she's in the best sports university in the UK. >> That's right. Yeah. So she's in her final year um doing sports next to her science. >> Congratulations. Really fantastic. So then um when did you then leave that school? Did you do sick form there? >> Yeah, I did. Yeah. All the way through. Right. So I started in the first year um and finished uh my A levels. Um >> but you went on to do economics in your first degree. >> Did economics in my first degree. Um I I wanted to be a doctor before switching at the 11th hour. Um and that's I was >> Why what happened? Why question? Look, I I was I was uni kind of um almost obsessively wanting to be a doctor. That's all I saw. I you know, I I used to do house visits with my dad and um just spend, you know, I just saw that life and all of their friends doctors. Um and that's what I really wanted to do. Um so, I took, you know, I took my um O levels at the time. I took my A levels. >> What were your A levels? >> Well, A levels were biology, chemistry, and maths to do medicine. >> Jeez. And those are not subjects that you could mess around with. It's like you either do well or >> Yeah, absolutely. And it, you know, the content is hard. Um, it's tough going. Um, and I I don't know. I I kind of I convinced myself that actually it it at the end of the day, it wasn't something I wanted to do, right? And and and it was, you know, it was the late 80s. um young people were driving fast cars and wearing braces with floppy hair. Uh and and I convinced myself that's what I wanted and I wanted to get there as quickly as possible. >> You wanted the Gordon Gecko lifestyle, was it? >> I did. And you know, and and I and that's what I convinced myself that I wanted to do. And and yeah, um and I thought the quickest way to do that was a degree in economics. All my mates were doing economic, you know, doing economics or business studies and they were all um trading in penny stocks and things like that. And so I thought, okay, that's that's what I'll go do. And did you speak to your parents about it? >> I Yeah. Yeah, we had Yeah, absolutely. Right. Um and you know, being immigrant being an im from an immigrant family, um I I don't think I think their worldview was well, I don't really understand what a degree in economics does for you. I don't understand where that takes you. >> I do understand medicine and dentistry and engineering and accountancy and I understand what you know how what the evolution is there, but I don't understand the other things. So that [snorts] was a challenge a little bit. Um but they were always supportive. >> Wonderful. >> Always supportive. Um and I went on to York University to do a degree in economics. Loved my time at York. Didn't work particularly hard unfortunately. Um did your right your right bice gets stronger from having a few drinks. >> Well actually interesting. I went to university not drinking. Right. So I Yeah, absolutely. So my I I I didn't I didn't touch alcohol at uh at I touched a little bit of alcohol at school and then at university for two terms I didn't and then I played cricket in the third term in the summer term >> everything changed >> and everything did change unfortunately. [laughter] >> Um and I met you know I met a couple of really good guys who are lifelong friends today. >> Yeah. >> Both very very successful. One a very senior partner at a law firm one a hedge fund manager. >> Okay. >> Um and we're dear mates. Um, and I I was the guy that [laughter] didn't succeed. >> Well, back well, back then, you know, just remember when we used to grow up watching footy, people would be having a and having a beer in between in between halves. That was the kind of area that we grew up in. >> Yeah. >> So, you finish at York? >> I finished at York and I, you know, again, I I I grew up in LA, if you remember the show LA Law and I, that's what that's what I saw. And I >> Who's your favorite character? >> I can't remember. >> Amanda Donghue was mine or the character that she played. I just thought she was brilliant. Do you remember English actress? She was punchy. Jimmy Smith. You're bringing back memories now. Do you remember Jimmy Smith? >> I do remember Jimmy Smith. I remember him in in uh >> NYPD. He was He was good. >> NYPD. And then what's the what's the latest thing? Is it the um >> It's the comedy show. He's a cop. I haven't seen it. He's got a mustache and stuff. Is it that one? >> Yeah. But the other one with the biker gang was >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It'll come back to me. >> Anyway, so I um I chose law. Um, and again I think that was a conversation that I had to have with my parents because again of course they knew what what lawyers were but I think again my father was kind of well what about accountancy right if you're not going to do medicine or engineering or dentistry well what about accountancy because economics takes you that route and I again I was fairly money motivated and I saw the starting salaries that lawyers earn in the city and I went that's what I want to go do. Um the mistake that I made is not doing my research. Um, and that's something that I've taken with me. You know, that's the advice that I I give candidates when they're talking about Yeah. >> roles. I give clients. I give clients when they're talking about wanting to open new offices in Singapore or wherever >> is, >> you know, don't don't just rely on anecdote. Don't just rely on what everybody else is doing. Make sure you do your research properly. And that's the information I've given to my children, right? Um, very clearly. Do your research. make sure that you understand what the job entails um and do something you're passionate about. Right. >> You know, you know what's funny? When you describe how you were money motivated, that that is completely not the impression I have of you. I guess our well, our relationship with money changes, right? Yeah. When you get old and you've got kids, we both got three kids. It's more about providing and and [snorts] you know, freedom. Um but it's funny how we evolve as human beings. We change from our early 20s, right? Big time. >> Yeah. Look, I I I can't pretend that I'm not still money motivated, right? I think we all are, >> of course, >> but money has a different um meaning to me today than it did, you know, then. Um and and I think my definitions of success have changed dramatically. >> What was your parents definition of success before you uh you know, finished university? Well, I think I think my definition is parents my parents definition of success has always been happiness and and wow a contented family life. Love, right? Lovely. >> Um and I think that's I think that's what a lot of Indian parents want for their kids. Um I think a lot of I think sorry it's what a lot of parents want for their kids, right? Not exclusive to Indian parents. Certainly mine did. um because my parents were not flashy at all. So that was their definition of success for me. >> But you know a lot of Indian parents were cuz I grew up a lot of my friends were South Asian. Um there was it was very measured you know education and stability. And I I I struggled because my mom was very conservative in terms of, you know, when I wanted to set up my own company or [snorts] do anything that was audacious, she would always steer me towards the safer path. That I'm guessing that's kind of what you had as well. >> Yeah, a little bit actually. But when I did set up my own business, I think when when I did set up my own business, they asked the questions, are you sure about that? >> And then when I chose to come out of my own business and go back into, you know, a big organization, they asked the same question, right? My mother asked the same question. Are you are you 100% sure that's what you want to do? Why don't you want to carry on doing your own thing? Yeah. >> So, there were great questions. >> Yeah. But um just coming back to that definition of success mom's you know my my parents definition of success was that um and [clears throat] you're absolutely right that actually Asian parents Indian parents particularly I think there are metrics by which they measure what is going to be what is going to make you happy and what's going to make you content right so >> you know finding a suitable life partner um being comfortable with money, which mean you know is going to mean that that's that you're not going to have to argue about money and and worry about money, right? But in order to not worry about money, the safe way to do that is education, >> profession because that's just that then the money comes along. Um so so that was their definition um very much so and it can you know it stays their definition honestly and it stays it's become my definition. I'll tell you a funny anecdote years ago I had a meeting with a CEO I was 27 28 uh of a major private bank and I later found out be I later found out he's a lovely man um and the head of HR and HR director said we want to introduce you we want to suggest that you're going to be our number one guy I said great and he looked at me and he looked me up and down he said you're very young I said thank you goes it's not a compliment I said of course it is I'm 27 or 28 I'm sat here in the room of a CEO so thank you. And um he said, "I'm going to ask you one question, and if you don't answer it well, that's it. It's the end of the meeting. We're not working together." And I said, "Okay, cool. But if I answer it well, do I get my retainer?" He goes, "Shoot." So I go, "What is it?" And he goes, "What's your definition of success?" And I said, "That's easy. It's how high you bounce once you reach rock bottom >> and you're pretty close with it with that idiot in heading Southeast Asia." And he started laughing. But it's just funny because I remember that because at the time I thought where did that come from? It it came out out of nowhere. All right. So go back. So when when you look at your childhood because I'm just curious because I think our childhood never really leaves us. >> Um and I know sports is something that's central to you and to me. What did you fall in love with? Was it beyond cricket? >> So I fell in love with football. >> Okay. [snorts] Who who >> originally? I'm a Nottingham Forest fan. >> Okay. >> And I fell in love with football um because I didn't know what rugby was at that [laughter] time. Um, and I arrived at school at my primary school as a five or six year old and didn't know what football was. And I arrived as the Indian kid and sat next to a guy, I think his name was Chris. I'm not sure what his surname was. Can't remember. And he, the first question he asked me is, "What football team do you support?" I'm like, "I don't even know what football is." And so I went, "Well, look, we're in Leicester. Why don't I'll support Leicester." They said, "No, you can't support Leicester. You've got to support Nottingham Forest because it was 1975 probably and Nottingham Forest had just retained Brian Clav. >> Yeah. >> And they were about to embark on this mega journey um of winning, you know, I think one league, one league title, maybe two league titles and two European cups back to back. Pretty epic, you know, epic, right? So that's who I chose. >> Um and I had a journey. um with Forest. >> Uh and I was I mean talk to my mother, right? She I I was obsessed with Forest. I had to and I wrote I actually wrote a letter to Brian Kloff. >> No way. >> I did um because I thought I was a quite a good quite a good goalkeeper at the time, right? Um and I said, "Look, >> dear Mr. Cloff, will you you know, will you I'm I'm a massive fan. Um can I come and train with the boys? I'd love I'd love for a trial, please. Can I come and train with the lads?" Um, and I got a letter back actually. >> Wow. >> Um, and you know, it was a type letter, but it had a signature at the bottom of it. Now, I don't know if it was a stamp signature or if it was his signature. I don't >> Doesn't matter. You got a letter back. >> Got a letter back. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. And he basically said, "Look, [snorts] can't let you train with the guys, but come, you know, if ever you want to come and have a watch your training session, here's my secretary's details." Um, >> wow. Did you take him up on it? >> I didn't. No, I didn't. >> Oh, mate, you should have gone. >> And I don't know. I don't know if I still got that letter. I probably have somewhere cuz I don't throw anything away. >> That's like that's in the old days people would write letters and if you were lucky they would write back. >> Yeah. >> You know, I love that. What a great story. >> So, so that's where my journey started. I loved I just loved football. I would do anything for football. >> Yeah. >> And then I went to the grammar school and there was no football, right? We didn't do football and in fact rugby. Yeah. It was just rugby. And I had a a brilliant sports master who said, "Round ball games, the only round ball game that we play is cricket, right?" And then they they also then played hockey, [laughter] but but it was rugby in the winter terms and football uh and and cricket in the summer. >> By the way, I want to touch upon that cuz people that aren't from the UK won't realize this. Quite often the sport that you play is something that either your parents fall in love with and then you know you're you're exposed to and quite often the school that you go to because if the school's got a heritage in rugby, >> that's what you'll end up playing. >> Yeah. And we definitely had a heritage in rugby, right? the the first team played in all white, right? Which is it's quite it's quite evocative, right? That all white, that's where I want to get to. >> Okay. >> And I didn't know the first thing about rugby, but my our first PE session or our first rugby session on a Wednesday afternoon at sports, you know, you start in the bottom group because you don't know the first thing. Somebody recognizes that you can catch and pass and you can run around a bit. Um, and then quickly within the end of that session, you're promoted to the, you know, to the top group. And I fell in love with rugby. Loved it. and um played in our first team um all the way through. >> I was a second row. Okay. >> Because I was this size, you know, all the way through. And actually >> I love 14 or something. >> And and you know, back in those days, you didn't need to be every position didn't need to be massive, right? So you needed to have >> I've seen pictures of you when you were younger. You had curly hair. You looked you looked too cute to play rugby almost. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. No, I I look I had hair definitely quite a lot of it at one point. Um but no, look, I I I I loved it and and then I fell in love with cricket around about the time I fell in love with with football. Um again, almost no choice really because I had cousins, you know, who who fell in love with it. And I I think my first memories were probably probably the 81 Ashes series, you know, Ian Botham and Bob Willis. Um, and that's something that I still do today. >> Love it. Well, think about it. It brought it brought you into recruitment. It's given you this complete circle of friends, >> you know, and how many 27 years here is it? >> Yeah, we arrived in 99. So, yeah, this is our I think we've just done 27 years. Yeah. And we're embarking on our 28th year in Singapore. >> It's crazy cuz when you think about, you know, you can be gone out of Singapore for 6 months and literally you look and think that building's new. Well, that's changed, >> right? And and I'm trying to think when when we first came, well, Marina Bay Sands, none of that, you know, it's all reclaimed. >> You play cricket out there, >> did you? >> Yeah. It was it was part of, you know, there was hawker centers, you know, one end was one end was a I think there were two bowling alleys at either end, then hawker centers in the middle. Um, and then a big patch of grass and we used to play cricket out there. >> Mad. >> When you So when you decided to throw your hat into the ring in recruitment, did you speak to mom and dad and were you met with resistance? You didn't how long into the game before you called them? >> Um I can't I honestly I can't remember. I It wasn't It wasn't a decision I involved them in. Um you know, I I decided that that was something you and if I'm brutally honest, I didn't think that it would last 27 years. You know, I we arrived in Singapore on a 2-year contract and we didn't think we'd be here 27 years. and I fell into recruitment or recruitment found me 27 years ago and I didn't think I'd be in recruitment for 27 years and you know at periods I've had a lovehate relationship with it but um >> I think we all have >> yeah you know I think it I think it does it to you >> well it listen it's killed not literally but figuratively many of our friends that were in the industry >> I think you 10 15 years and most people burn out and I I don't know maybe you and I are too tough for our own good because we've hung in there it's a double-edged sword it's good and I mean, you talked about you talked about resilience earlier, right? You did talk about how you b how how much you bounce back when you're at rock bottom. And I think resilience is I think it's just an undervalued um resource, right? It's an undervalued trait that somebody needs to needs to develop. >> Um and I think I certainly have >> um and I think my kids have it. Well, one of the things we won't go there too much because you might start crying, but one of the things I admire most about you, we have a lot in common, but you're an amazing dad. The way that you talk about your kids and your wife, and it's something that you and I think we share cuz we we are very much in love with our family. Um, I'm very curious because you're an empty neester now. >> Yeah. >> What were the conversations you you having with your girls about what they wanted to do? Cuz I'm going through that now, you know, like where does it begin? like do you sit down and say what do you want to do and how does it unfold? >> I don't think it can begin too early honestly. I think I think um I think you have to sorry I think that that's what I'm trying to say is that I don't you don't want to put that in their mind too early. Right. I think that actually limiting their options too early is not the right thing to do. I think that they need to do as they're schooling as they're going you know through it. I think they need to >> they're discovering right? they're discovering and they need to be open to everything honestly. I think they need to understand and you know if they're all rounders then they just need to have all of those influences and all of those inputs. So I think limiting somebody and saying what do you what do you think you want to do too early is is the wrong thing. Um, so I would suggest that, you know, when they turn 16 or 17 is when they need to start thinking a little bit more about what they're passionate about, what they think that they could do when they when they move forward. But I think it's all it's got to be about what they're passionate about, what they see >> has to be >> because you have to get out of bed in the morning and and and go to work essentially. And if you you know the old adage, if you do, you know, if you do a job that you love, you never do a day's you know, work in your life, right? So that's really the mantra upon which we've kind of operated >> and and each kid as we know like each child is very different. They got their unique personalities. >> Um it's funny because you've you've still got that heritage with the UK. I'm not sure that I've I've had that with my family. Maybe because my mom and dad moved to Ireland. >> Yeah. >> And I I feel more of a connection with Ireland in many ways. Um but the reality is the kids could move anywhere in the world. I mean like we're we're in Singapore cuz my wife would like to follow the kids. I mean she's she'd like to go and she'd probably stay in the same dorm room with them as well or or close by. That's how much you know she wants to be involved. But I said you can't. They're going to they're going to go in different directions and we'll just have to get on a plane and go and see them. >> Yeah. I I I think that's true. Um and I think that that's really hard to do but you have to do it. >> Yeah. Um and so those those are the discussions that my wife and I are having now is you know we we we are all about family. Family is really important to us and um how do we maintain that without without overbear you know being overbearing parents. >> Yeah. Um, and just coming back on your on your question around, you know, how do how do you kind of guide? Um, that's a better question obviously to ask my wife than me. But what I think we've done is, as I said, allow children to discover their passions, to discover things that they're interested in, and then try and guide them in in in areas that actually might make some sense for them. Um you know we have a a do a doctor daughter who um found that herself. Um we have a sporty number two who will choose whatever she's going to do. You know she's a prime example. She's gone to a university which is arguably the best in the world to do the degree that she's doing. Um loves sport but hasn't got a clue what where that's going to take her. But she's developing, you know, she's now beginning to think about where that's going, where that can go and what her passions are. >> And she's in the right place because she'll meet a lot of people, right? A lot of >> Yeah. Absolutely. And and and she I I think my wife and I understand where she should go, but we're trying to hold that back because she needs to discover that for herself. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And our third child has decided to go, you know, and and try and make it on the West End stage, and that's a passion. And you know um it's not it it's a little bit um left field for us. It's a little bit alien for you know for our background you know being conservative university going parents but it it it's something that she >> is she um going the musical route or more the acting route. >> Musical theater. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So it's West End and Broadway. >> It's amazing. It's it's I don't know if I told you I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be an actor and a boxer. These were the two key things. And what put me off, my teacher, my theater studies teacher, she said, "Paul, you're sure. You think you're good-looking, but you're not. You can't sing a lick. You're an okay dancer." But what put me off was the amount of money. Cuz I I became friends with quite a few actors that were uh had gone through Rada and were working at the National Theater and they were on like something like £150 a week. And [snorts] the thing is, you would constantly be going for the next gig because you know that that show would only run this long. And uh I always think it's a labor of love to begin with. And if you get very lucky, you make it. But it but wouldn't it be amazing? >> Absolutely. I And labor of love is the right is the right word, right? I mean, I think that you have to be 150% passionate in that job particularly because it's a hard gig. >> It is. >> Um so that's what we've told her. But but actually I think that as I said it comes back to making sure you're 100% passionate about the thing that you do. >> You got to do it. I've actually had um uh a camel huck who set up the first acting theater company here. >> Yeah. >> And had a theater director on and it was just very interesting because their journey started when they were quite young. One fellow ended up studying at NYU and now and then he he was directing plays off Broadway and now he's got a gig here. And look, the reality is if you're passionate and you can make a living and uh because the passion is sustainable, I think, you know what I mean? As long as you can make a living and then the sky's is the limit. That's why my my son wants to become a film director, right? He wants to become a filmmaker. And a friend of mine said to me, "Why don't you put him into private banking with your network?" And I said, "Why would I do that?" And he kept talking to me like, "You're an idiot, Paul. You've got a great network." I said, "No, I'm not going to tell my son what to do. He's going to do what he wants to do, and I'm going to encourage him." because I think that's the natural order. >> Yeah. Look, I I and what I will say also and and again again, you know, people have heard of this for me for a long time that actually you need to realize that it's a marathon and not a sprint. You know, I think that there are so many one there are so many ways of defining success. >> Yeah. >> And two, you you know there it's a long life, right? And don't be in any rush to get to where you need to get to if it takes a little longer. >> Well, look what happened to us. I fell into recruitment. I don't know if you know how I fell into recruitment. I was 17. And my mom came upstairs. It was a Friday night. It was past midnight. I was doing some course work. I was a good lad. I wasn't out partying. And she had tears in her eyes. And my mom was a tough woman. I'd never seen her cry before. And I go, "What's wrong?" And she and my dad had had a stroke a few years before that. And she said, "We can't afford to pay the bills." Said, "Okay." And she goes, "You need to get a job on Monday, but it's got to paid by the end of the week, otherwise we can't make the mortgage payment." And then, you know, I'm thinking I'm immediate. And I'd been working, by the way, part-time um uh in a hotel as a receptionist. And I would sometimes do the morning shift, the the night shift. I was earning 280 an hour. Um so I went to a local high street agency. They don't have them here in Singapore. Is the equivalent of a maid agency here. >> Yeah. >> And um I said I went there at 6:30 in the morning and uh it was right by South Har Tube Station. I said, "Do you have any gigs starting immediately and paying weekly?" They said, "Well, we got one as a toilet cleaner." And I said, "I'll take it, please." And they started laughing. I said, "Why are you laughing?" I said, "Well, no one really says please to to be cleaning the toilets." And I said, "As long as it pays at the end of the week." And I did that for 3 months. I worked in Hammersmith Hospital and then King King Edward the Seventh Hospital, which was the Queen's Hospital. And um so this time I was handing in my time sheet in Baker Street >> and uh remember the old time sheets? going clock in, clock out and then the phone was ringing and no one was answering the phone. So I Good morning, HS HMS services. How can I help you? I did stutter and um the guy there, Richard Gordon, black guy, goes, "What the hell are you doing?" And I said, "I'm answering the telephone. You what does it look like?" Cuz he was quite aggressive. And um he said, "You speak English?" I said, "Yeah, probably better than you do." You know, cuz we're from the UK. We're lippy. And he said, "Well, cuz all the toilet cleaners were foreign refugees." And then he said, well, you know, he had my story. He said, do you want to come and do recruitment with me? I said, what's recruitment? 17. So that's like 30 in a bit years ago. And it's funny because when you get in, that's why I always say to people, you know, a lot of people ask me, should I consider relocating abroad when they're young? I said, absolutely go because if you don't, what will probably happen, we we have a lot of friends like this, nothing wrong with this, you stay and you never leave. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? and I just encourage people to try new things early on. It's okay if you fall over a few times. Um, talk to me about your journey. Why and when did you decide to start your own company? Um I I probably decided to start my own company fairly soon after I fell into recruitment actually just because you recognize quite early on that um that it's about personal brand and it's about that you know people are buying you rather than buying the organization that you're working for. Um and as a Gujarati Ugandan Asian um albeit a fairly conservative parents who are professionals and not business people half more than half my community is very successful business people who run their own businesses. So I always had this thing in my mind that I should be able to do this. It's in my genes. Um I'm not sure that it is actually but [laughter] but anyway um so I I you know fairly soon after I I fell into recruitment I realized that actually you know the fees can be quite nice and actually I was giving away more than 70% of you know to my employer. I kind of realized that that's something that I probably wanted to do but it took me a good four years or five years to to get to that point and >> how old were you when you when you went live remember? So, um, it was in 2006, January 2006, and I went live. So, I would have been 36. >> We went live. I I went live just before you in in '05. It's crazy, right? >> And I had uh I had >> Did you speak to anyone? Just >> I I spoke to lots of people. Yeah, I >> I didn't, you know. [laughter] No, I'm just curious cuz cuz I'm just curious because the reason why I didn't was >> I realize if you ask 10 people their idea, you you'll have 10 different answers and then it's it's hard, right? Yeah. Um I mean look I I spoke to a lot of people. I did speak to a number of my clients that I trusted because I needed their backing. Um I became a permanent resident in 2004 with the agenda of setting the business up then. Um but it took me another two years and those were two years you know well spent in in an agency that gave me a different perspective and you know different skills and different connections. Uh and I um took the leap in 2006. Um, >> can I can I can we just give a shout out to Shakimmani because >> 100%. >> Because this woman was the most amazing or is the most amazing woman. >> And um I'll tell you a quick story. So >> 2001 I get called into the office. >> I think I'm the first called into the office and I was let go and the the firm laid off I think roughly 100 people in five locations. Um 9/11 was not kind to anyone, right? And uh in the contract it said because we were all expats if you leave within one week uh we will pay for your return ticket home economy class and it was Christmas it was December sorry and uh so 19 of the people in the Singapore office went to the pub that day and I think they went to Harry's uh or Penny Black and I could see them from the the office and I stayed in the office and uh I made 20 phone calls and I got 20 first interviews. And actually that's that's a very proud day for me because I was so worried because my flatmate also lost his job and I was not going back. So my rent doubled and I just lost my job and my mom and dad were arriving in 10 days time and I was thinking I'm in trouble. Anyway, I called Shaki and I told her what happened. She was no longer working with the firm as you know >> and I said I'm I don't know if I'm going to be able to survive for the next couple of months. And she said to me, "Paul, when your mom and dad arrive, you can all come and stay with Brian and I." >> Wow. >> And I [snorts] said, "Thank you." And I said, "Yeah, don't get me started." I said, "Hopefully won't come to that, but and and the fact it just the love just the love and the support. Do you know what I mean?" And um she she was just different, you know? She helped me find my first apartment, you know, she introduced me to the agents and we're still very close to this day. You're even closer to her than I am, but you know, give her a shout out because she's an amazing woman. >> Yeah. >> Don't get me started. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I want to talk a little bit about when you set up the business. When you set it up, it was just you. Did you like think, "Okay, this is what I'm going to go and do." Did you have a plan of action or did you just throw yourself into it? >> Yeah. No, I I threw myself into it. Um and and actually look honestly, you know, that's the advice that I'd probably give anybody looking to go out and do their own thing in whatever field is the most difficult thing is the first leap, right? It's just stepping off that precipice and taking that leap. >> Yeah. >> Because that's the most difficult thing to do. And um if you're and you can just procrastinate and and never ever do it, right? So just do it. What I would advise though is make sure you write a proper business plan. Make sure you have you think in fiveyear cycles. >> What's what's that? What's the business plan? [laughter] >> Yeah, I Okay, I I hear you right. because again I didn't write a I mean I you know I I I'd read all the books and and you know um was putting together a business plan but unfortunately I'm a tad lazy and a tad disorganized and my um and so I didn't get round to putting a proper business plan together. I had it all formulated in my head. But I think it's really valuable to write stuff down. >> I agree. >> And have what you think a business is going to look like in 5 years because I think then that helps every decision that you make, right? Every crossroads that you come to where there's no right or wrong answer, you can look at that problem and go, >> how does this get us closer to the five-year plan? And then you can make the decision in that way. So that's the one thing I would advocate. But no, I just I dived in. I dived in. Um, and that's largely driven by uh a client wanting a client wanting to retain me to do a piece of work. Um, and honestly, if they if that hadn't been there and if I hadn't take that leap, I may well have just carried on doing what I was doing with the organization I was doing it with. Um, so yeah, I you know, just a big leap of faith um to go in. One of one of the things again that I admire tremendously about you and I feel the same thing about my values is longevity, right? You know, because you've been with your current organization for a long time. You you ran your business for 11 years and I think a lot of the people that you work with, the relationships effectively lifetime. Talk a little bit about that because it's overlooked. >> Um, look, I I don't I don't know. I think I'm not sure how to answer your question there. Right. I do think that long-term relationships are crucial in everything. Um, you know, I value relationships. Um, I'm I'm very much relationship driven. I much rather sit and have a coffee with somebody or take somebody out for lunch rather than the phone. Um, and my, you know, my employer won't like me saying it, but I I'm not a massive fan of the phone, but it is a a crucial tool in our industry, >> of course, >> but I do like a relationship. Um, and so and I just think that embeds you in a market, embeds you with people. I think it it's gains trust and and I think that's very much the difference between a long-term view >> if you're playing the long game and particularly at more senior levels. Um, it just helps you gain somebody's trust. And I would much rather be the trusted advisor. I'd much rather be the consultative strategic recruiter um who thinks of problems, you know, as a consultant rather than as a salesperson. >> I guess what I'm I'm I'm leading to is that you're you're not a transactional recruiter. >> I think we all have to be transactional recruiters. I I think that there I think >> but you're not thinking about a transaction and then it's one and done. You're you're trying to devel Yeah. I I honestly I never have and I think that was one of the challenges I faced when I first started in recruitment >> um in the organization that I started with was that actually it just felt super transactional even if it was aiming to be really high-end it was super transactional and there was no currency on uh on on the relationship you know and and I just needed I needed to be >> uh I need I needed that relationship I you know I needed to my my ambition very was that you know my idea was actually this is this is all about making sure that you are trusted advisor status either with the client or with a candidate and often with both um you know you need to be your candidates's therapist and you need to be your client's kind of business consultant right business partner >> very true very true what what does excellence look like for you in executive search and what differentiates a good or a great recruitment consultant from an average one >> and unfortunately excellence I think has to look like fee income. I mean I don't think you can separate it from fee income. So I think you know making decent fee income but making for me excellence is making decent fee income in an ethical and strategic manner. Right. >> I love that. >> Uh and I think that because I have to live with myself and in Singapore I have to live in you know in in a market where I might see somebody at cold storage who I may have placed. Right. So excellence is the right fit client and candidate and improving somebody's life on both sides of the fence. Um so uh from a candidate's perspective, however they view improvement, whether they improve whether they view improvement in terms of more money on the table, whether they improve, you know, they view improvement as more balance, um a better platform to to move on from, whether they, you know, whether more opportunity, whatever their definition of success is. Um making sure that that fits, you know, I've made that fit happen. um and that they are I would love for people to be in jobs for long you know for long term that's absolutely key right so >> for me it's important that we do that properly rather than do it and run away because just it can't happen >> what what advice would you give to young recruiters in terms of honing their craft and improving their game >> so I think uh young recruiters need to listen more and talk less I think that you know we don't sell products, we sell solutions. Um, and you know, you don't know what the solutions are until you've heard what the client's problems are. Um, so I think you need to do that first first and foremost. Uh, again, I hate to say it, but you have to be on the phone. I think that AI is great. I think LinkedIn is fantastic. I think that WhatsApp is a great tool, but I think that you there's no way that you're going to build trust if you can't have a proper conversation, preferably face to face, if not over the phone or on Teams. um where somebody can look you in the eye and understand the tone of your voice and understand the depth of your market knowledge. I think building market knowledge is crucial, right? I think you do need to be the expert in the room and you need to bring you need to learn how to bring enough information and worth to a conversation that the person you're talking to gets as much from you as you're wanting to get from them. >> Yeah. Um, and those are things that you learn as you, you know, you do more. Um, and and you know, and I think do things for the right reasons. Don't I don't know if I can swear on the podcast, but you know, don't be a dick essentially. I think that's really important. >> I've got a no policy and I always joke I said that's really difficult in my industry. >> Um, I'll tell you another funny story. So when I arrived in Singapore after about two weeks when I was trying to work out what am I doing legal recruitment there was not a lot of guidance um and I met a candidate and I said I didn't even know the difference between in-house and practice I knew nothing and no one was teaching me and I said is there any kind of forum where people meet together you know and and this person said oh there's an in-house gathering said okay what is it how does that work and you know once a month or once a quarter whatever it was and it was on top of muddy mur Murphy's and I've been in Singapore 2 weeks and I go up there and I'm meeting everyone and I give out two boxes of cards and the general council of FedEx pulls me to the side. He said, "Look, really appreciate you've been here, Paul, but you're not a lawyer. You're not in house. What the hell are you doing here?" So I said, you know, I'm a legal recruiter. Boom, boom, boom. And um I said, I've been here for two weeks and just trying to get to know each other. And he and he could see I was young. He said, I admire your gusto. You need to get the out of here. And I said, "I tell you what, let me finish my beer and uh can you give me the name list?" And he goes, "Will that get you out of here?" I said, "Yeah." And uh I said, "There's my card. If I may, I'll call you on Monday." [clears throat] I left. And I I I called him on Monday and he said, "I've got some potential work for you." And then he said, "Um, my buddies, the general council, uh, United Parcel Services, they're looking for a tax accountant stroke lawyer. Do your best." And I remember that. But I just when I look back the the the kahunas that it took to go up there when you think about I was I was 22. I rolled up there didn't know what I was doing and um I think you need that in our business. You need a little bit of custo. >> I think I think you you need to be brave but you also need to be authentic, right? I think I think at every meeting you need to bring your authentic self. I think that's just really, you know, and unfortunately if your authentic self is addict, then, you know, you need to work [laughter] out how you're going to how you're going to, you know, modify that behavior, right? But that comes with that comes with time and that comes with >> um, you know, I think >> learning that from strong leaders like Shaki. I think that that's something that, you know, you you can you can develop. Um, you know, you talk about mantras that you might want to live by. I do I think that being kind and not being a dick is really important. >> Yeah, big time. So, what happened between you running your own company for 11 years and then decided to go on to do what you're doing now, working for a major global player? >> Yeah, look, I I you know, running your own business is hard. Um, and particularly if you um if you're running it by yourself essentially, right? If you're effectively a soul practitioner, I was doing fine. I was having I had good years and bad years and and I was having a great year um and feeling very confident about my ability and myself and all the rest of it. And I got a call I got a headhunt call um from somebody sitting in London who asked me a question as to whether I would have a look at an organization and I my initial reaction was like look I'm having a great year I don't need this I'm fine right I'm taking 80% of whatever I'm billing and it you know life is good um but there were a couple of organizations that I would have had a discussion about and and fortunately or unfortunately they were talking to me about MLA and I've known about MLA since I arrived in Singapore. Um, one of the organizations that I used to work for had a relationship with MLA, you know, a split fee arrangement with MLA because until 2001, they didn't have offices in Asia Pacific. We didn't have offices in Asia Pacific. Uh, and and we set up our office in Asia Pacific in 2001. Um, and until that time, they were splitting fees with an agency here. And I was working for that agency and MLA were doing, they were at the forefront very clearly. they were doing in the in-house space, you know, IBM's first GC, Facebook's first GC, um, uh, you know, perhaps not IBM's first GC, but definitely Facebook's first GC, but, you know, these big >> big deals, >> deals, and I think Motorola's first, you know, general council for Asia Pacific, all of that kind of stuff. And I got a real sense of who they were. Uh, and I had a flirtation with him in 2006 when we were thinking about um not setting up my own business and and you know leaving or 2005 maybe and and you know uh leaving and potentially moving back to London and they were about to open in London. Uh and um uh so I got a I got a call about these guys uh and I took the call I took the meeting and it took us a year to took me a year actually not them. It took me a year to make a decision about this and and decide that it was it was something that I would regret not doing. So that's the decision that I made is that if I don't do this, I'll regret not doing this. >> Interesting. >> And I can always go back and do my own thing. That's always going to be there. >> Um and so that's that's the decision I made, you know, and then I guess from a personal perspective, I had kids at fairly sensitive stages at school. um I needed to I think bring a bit more stability into our you know into the earnings a little bit you know because again being a soul practitioner um it can sometimes be feast and famine um and you know when you're feasting it's fantastic but when it when it's famine it's really tough >> so so I just took that leap at that point um and I had no regrets about doing it [clears throat] >> good for you >> and what when you look at um lawyers right and you're because when you know the area I specialize in private banking. The risk of moving is is a big concern. It's stability, right? And and uh we've got a great track record in that just over 20 sorry just over 96% of the people we've ever placed, believe it or not, are still working where we placed them. >> Great. >> And it could mean that we're not placing enough people. Uh but but it's also because a lot of the banks are consolidated, so there are less options. But what I try to do is help people do some real due diligence and understand, well, look, if you stay, what does that potentially look like? You know, do you have a godmother, a godfather, multiple champions, you know, what are you trying to work towards and is that real or not real? Um, but when you're moving senior lawyers and partners, it's similar that there is so much because they're thinking about their their client rolodex, you know, the ecosystem they're trying to build. What do you find are the biggest challenges when you're moving some big ticket partners? Um, I think I think that the biggest challenge that partners face when they're moving is the platform that they're potentially moving to. Um, and whether it's the right platform for them. You know, to use your words, whether it's the right ecosystem from which they can they're in a better position than they are now. Um, you know, there are two types of candidates, right? There there's there's a candidate that's not happy with the position with with a with a platform and they're actively looking at doing something different and they'll almost look at any platform. and then there's a candidate that actually is very happy on that platform but if you present a better platform then you know could they do even better on that platform. Um so that's that's the major challenge is is finding making you know or objectively coming to the table to candidates to say I can see that this will be better for you. M >> um I think lawyers are by nature conservative type A personalities and um you know there is a level of inertia that we do see um certainly you know in Singapore markets um and and our lawyers in this market you know they're clever now right the the the international law the international lawyers that I deal with today um or sorry those working in international law firms they understand how difficult it is to move a rolodex how difficult it is to um you know without without the support of a proper platform um to take that you know to to take a practice and make it 25% bigger or 50% bigger which is the agenda right >> um so if you know if if a if a if a client if a law firm is coming and saying well we'll pay you two times as much I think lawyers are clever enough to go well that's great that's all very nice there's no free lunch yeah >> yeah let's have a look at what your strate Can I talk about strategy, please? Can you tell me what what else you're planning to do here? Can you tell me um how uh you know, London or New York is is going to um uh going to how how they view this move, how they view this office opening. Um those those are great questions. Those are great questions that that lawyers ask. >> You know what's interesting? I've had three uh senior lawyers that are partners in law firms that have come to me initially for career coaching and they ended up spending more time and money with me on developing their sales skills. >> Yeah. >> Cuz cuz you know I I feel like I'm a world-class sales guy. Like if you give me 100 products and services and there's a race against you know a million sales people, I'm I'm going to win that for a number of reasons. But for me, what I've done is number one, I've studied it. I've I've read over 110 books on sales. I've tried to understand really how it works. But what is more important, I feel, than anything else is a little bit of clarity of what you're you're trying to accomplish. And ultimately sales is about human communication. Now, some of the lawyers I've spoken to, same with private bankers, it's really interesting. They talk about networking, networking, networking. And I said, "Well, tell me what that looks like." Well, I'm going to an event and I'm having to drink and eat and drink and eat. And I said, well, let's talk about a firm that you want to develop a relationship with. And one lawyer said to me, uh, I wanted to I want to work with KKR. Said, brilliant. So, why don't you get a meeting with them? They don't have any need right now. And I said, listen, find the person. Identify who the right person is. It's very important not to accept no from someone who can't say yes, by the way. Are they the right hiring manager or or partner or whatnot? reach out, invite them for a coffee or lunch, and it's that simple. It's very powerful. And be ready and be prepared. And what I find really interesting about sales is uh because we've all seen it that, you know, some of the guys that I've worked with are fantastically great account managers. They're not great business developers. And you know what I realized is you can't always change that because in theory, in my mind, it's like, well, you've got this client, these candidates, why don't you take these candidates and now you you take them across market and you have five more clients. you you've 6xed what you were doing in theory, but what I realized it's not easy. And then the deeper psychosis is well, is the person an introvert? Like I'm an introvert. How do you get past that? How do you and your style of working is is uh and I'm like this very old school meet someone for a coffee, meet someone for lunch. But I'm just curious like um have you experienced a lot of sales training yourself in in the firms that you've worked in or yourself because I I find it's largely missing in a lot of recruitment companies. >> Yeah. No, I think the simple answer to that is no, I haven't. Um, you know, I think the first organization that we worked in, I think that's where most of my training came. Yeah. Um, and and look, I you know, I I um I think it was, frankly, I think it was really really good, right? I mean, if you remember, we had scripts and we had to, you know, adhere to the scripts and make sure that >> um and and what you learn to do is that you learn to modify those scripts, you learn to add bits, you learn to take bits away and bring your again or your authentic self to the script that you're given. But actually, that was >> valuable, seriously valuable for me, never having done a sales job in my life to come to that and go, okay, this is actually what benefit selling kind of looks like a little bit. But no, I you know all the other organizations that I've worked in, no nothing. >> So for that company, I uh I had a series of interviews and then one of the owners of the company, I was on the phone. He said, "We want to make you an offer." I said, "Cool. Thanks." Um and I was dressed. It was 6:00 in the morning. I was in London. It was cold and I was in my pinstripe suit with my shirt and tie and my brother thought I was an idiot because he said, "He can't see you." I said, "Yeah, but I feel different when I'm dressed up, but I'm here in my box of shorts. It's not going to feel the same." And I still believe that, right? You you got to be ready. You got to be shaved. You got to be whatever makes you feel good. And I said, "Well, I want to fly out to Singapore." And he said, "Well, we don't fly people out." I said, "What idiot >> would come and take a job with a bunch of people that he hasn't met?" He said, "Well, you met these guys." I said, "I haven't been to the office." So I said, "Look, fly me out and um if I interview anywhere else, I'll refund you the money. If you fly me out and you make me a job offer and I don't take the job, I'll pay back 50%. But if you you fly me out and you offer me the job and I take the job, you pay for everything." And uh and um he said, "Well, I need to speak to my partner." I said, "Do you own the firm or not?" He goes, "Yeah, right." He goes, "Call Katherine and uh she'll make the arrangements." I said, "I've already booked the flight. I'll see you next Thursday and uh I'll send her the invoice." And then he said, "You always close that that hard." I said, "Well, if you bring your wife along to Friday drinks, you can ask her." [laughter] You know what I was like, the audacity, but he loved it. But what what was interesting to me going back to the objections, he said, "One lunchtime. All right, hot shot. There you go. Read that. Come back and learn it all." And it was a lot. And then he he did a few role plays with me and um I said how did it go? and he said it was it was okay you know there was a lot to learn and I said quite frankly it was quite elementary in the company I work for there are 56 objections and 117 rebuttals and he said really I said no but I had you for [laughter] and that was the kind of banter but what I what I think goes hand inand in recruitment training has to be number one there has to be the knowledge of the industry that's that's that's everything is that and then you have to have executive search recruitment training anymore. So, what I always teach guys is you have an objection and most people go straight to the rebuttal, but the problem is the candidates or or the clients already said no. They're already thinking no. So, I said when you get really good at your job, you can anticipate what the objection is and you can address it before it becomes an objection. And then I call that yes platform because at that point, the guy's nodding his head like you are and he's in somewhat of an agreement. And there are certain statements that you can make that in theory they they are right in the middle between right and wrong and that 99% of the people you speak to will agree with. So I'll say to someone I say look the dichotomy in private banking is that the CEO who's in the job today is unlikely to be in the job 5 years from now. So the challenge is is you know reading the tea leaves beyond that you know so let's unpack that in your current organization and nine times out of 10 they'll love that or rather than ask what are your push factors that get someone's backup you say just out of curiosity what have you been earmarked for which is a much softer question and they'll say you know what I don't know so have you spoken with your boss about what's next yeah but it's a little bit okay bit gray let's let's unpack that and all of a sudden now you're having a conversation and the last thing I feel that a lot of sales people fail to do is they don't share much of who they are, but they're asking 101 questions. You can't expect someone to share with you unless you shared a little bit of your soul. >> Um and and I just find and I and I enjoy that because I always think um it's like >> I was trying to teach my guys how to chat up girls. They said, "Dad, taking a mick out of me, they said, "We have apps." I said, "Yeah, but so what you you go into a date and you're going to chat GBT, what should I say next?" And she's going to the toilet. How? No, at some point you got to interact. Do you know what I mean? Um, let let's I want to do some rapid fire questions for you, right? So, when you look back at your career of the last few decades, what are some of the things that you're most proud of? >> Um, I'm actually I'm proud of I'm I'm pr career-wise, I'm proud that I'm still doing this. >> Yeah. 27 years. >> Yeah. >> Um, I'm proud of having done my own thing for 11 years. Very very proud of that. You know, I think that I'm glad I I took that leap. Um and uh it was it taught me a lot. Uh you know and and it gave me you know the courage to to go back and do that again at some point maybe you know if that if that's what I choose to do. Um you know it is it is something that I'm very proud of. Um you know I don't know from a purely transactional perspective we've made some we've changed some people's lives and and made some big fees. Right. So those are things I'm quite proud of. If you were to start again in your 20s, what would you do differently if you were advising yourself? >> I I would probably if it was recruitment, I'd probably say do your own thing much earlier, right? Um dive in with both feet much earlier. Um don't be afraid to make mistakes actually. Um you know, I I was quite conservative as a young person and and didn't you know, the fear of failure was always there. >> Yeah. Um, and uh, and I I think people only learn by making mistakes. Um, so dive in and don't be don't be scared to make mistakes. >> I do think on on that note, a lot of people underestimate what it takes to set up your own business, whatever you're doing, and run it. And I always say, look, you can see the person in the capitium or you can see a guy driving a taxi. Guy driving a taxi or woman, they're running their own company, you know, in many ways. Um, but when you're actually doing it and you don't have a brand, you're doing on your own, it is different and it can be liberating. It can be a bit scary. I think the fact that we both been in recruitment and run our own businesses and don't have much hair is is probably, you know, it's inextricably linked. Um, if you could have bit uh dinner with three business leaders living or you know, passed on. Yeah. >> Who would you have at a table? >> Yeah. Yeah, look, I looked at I looked at that question and I wasn't I wasn't sure I was going to answer that question actually, but I I mean, I think I' I'd like to get into Steve Jobs's head. It'd be really interesting. Um, Bill Gates quite possibly, you know, I'm quite impressed. >> You think they would be okay at the same table? [laughter] >> Well, I think they're good friends. I do. I think they they were good friends. Um, you know, and I think they did help, as much as the rhetoric isn't, I think they did actually help each other out in the end of the day. And I think Bill Gates having done what he's done and then moved away from it and moved into philanthropy is a really interesting move actually. >> Yeah. >> Um and and I'm going to go with a non- business person actually. I would really have liked to have met Nelson Mandela and just understood that man. >> Yeah. Beautiful. >> And how you can move, how you can forgive. Actually, >> I just think if you in the presence of that man, as long as he was prepared to share, you'd just end up listening. >> Yeah. >> You you you just in awe. In fact, I did a podcast yesterday with one of the top five, >> in my opinion, the best uh sports journalist in boxing, MMA yesterday. He's a Hall of Famer. And um he's a bit of a geek. So, he ended up teaching at the first Mac store, Apple store in Nevada. >> And just cuz he's a geek, he wasn't doing it for the money. He ended up teaching people how to use all these devices. This is back in the day because he was a big advocate of Apple over Microsoft. And uh it got to the point where there were like 500 people turning up. >> And one day he saw Steve Jobs walk in and watch the whole thing and um kind of interviewed him afterwards. Why are you doing this? Do you think you're better than the marketing department? Do you think you know your product better than mine? And I thought flipping else. It was put under the kaosh. And that journalist has met um five presidents. Barack Obama has given him some cuff links. And I had asked him, "Who's the person that you were the most in awe of?" And he said, "I really wasn't in awe of anyone other than one man, Muhammad Ali." I said, "Wow, pretty pretty amazing." Um leadership trait, what leadership trait has become more valuable over time to you, how you run things, and what you've observed in other leaders? Um I think um other leaders I think um empathy I think listening um listening more and talking less I think is equally important for a leader as it is for somebody who is trying to say you know to make a sale. Um I think um I think good leaders are take ownership and are organized. Um, and I will I'm always happy to take ownership, but I'm desperately disorganized. [laughter] My my crew my crew, you know, in Singapore, they'll tell you that I'm desperately disorganized. And I have nothing but the greatest respect for, you know, a couple of my colleagues who um are >> um mothers and business leaders um and uh very successful business leaders and they and they do other things on the side as well. And they are incredible women um which I I don't know how they do it. >> I love it. misconception. What's the most common recruitment misconception that you see? >> Uh that recruitment is easy, right? You know, I I've got a fantastic network. I know a lot of people. Um all I'm doing is matching this to that and that's all I need to do, right? Um that's everybody thinks that recruitment is an easy gig. Um particularly if you're coming from the client side and you're going onto the agency side, you think, well, actually, I know all you know the at least the client that I'm coming with, they'll they'll use me, but the conversation becomes a different one. So I think that that you know the the I think people forget that as soon as you become the poacher you people you know the rather than the gamekeeper people have a different conversation with you right people tell you less they don't trust you as much as they did when you were on their side of the fence. >> That's a very good point Ash. Yeah. And and um and the I think the misconcept you know the the kind of layering on top of that it's a sales game right what we do is a sales business. So you know it is if there is a process if you run your process you will succeed. It is an effort business. If you work hard you will succeed. If you make those phone calls and have those meetings you will succeed. Yeah. >> And that's really that's all you do, isn't it, Ash? So, it's not that. >> It It's so funny because I mean cuz that's the thing. People think they've got a roller desk, but that that disappears very quickly. Absolutely. >> And what I found is is because, you know, I'm sure you're the same. I I work primarily with a select group of clients. So, every time there's a search, it tends to be um a slightly nuanced new version of what they're looking for. It's not like, you know, we're looking for the head of this. It's the exact same search each time. So, you have to do a search. You are looking globally. Um and one of my friends who was the head of HR said, you know, I think I can do your job. And I said, probably just whether or not you can do it well. So, I said, let's try. So, we're at lunch and I said, I want you to call a private banker. We we'll choose one. and you're going to create a pseudonym, right? Don't give your real name. He goes, "Well, I've got friends." I said, "Yeah, but that's the thing." At least 50% of the people I place every year, I didn't know them the year before intimately. So, you're going to call someone right now and uh just just for the heck of it. So, he said, "Okay." And he wanted to call. Now, I know this person wasn't particularly nice. So, in the back of my mind, I thought, "Yes, we've got a we got a live one." He called up was on um speak phone and the banker told him literally to f off. And I said, "Welcome to my world, bro." You know what I mean? Because it's not easy. It's not easy. You got to be tough. Yeah. >> Um, >> good versus bad. What in your mind when you hear a recruiter on the phone, what do you hear that's that's good versus bad? Are there any key indicators you think, okay, that that doesn't work? Um, I think good recruiters, as I said, I'm sorry to keep hawking on about it, but I think good recruiters listen um and speak less. And I think good recruiters are empathetic and um objective um whereas um I think what could be improved um is if somebody is foisting their own opinions forcefully um because it comes across as desperately wanting to make a sale actually. >> So I think that that good recruiters um are objective and consultative and allow people to come to their own conclusions. Yeah. Um certainly what I try to do. I think answering one of your previous questions, the this is about um bringing bringing an objective opinion to an issue and allowing your candidate to come to their own conclusion rather than forcing your conclusion onto them. They have to come to that because they have to live with that decision. You you don't have to. >> That's great insight. No, I've just because there's so many, you know, I'm just going to technical, but um you know, I've had a lot of recruiters, they'll debrief a candidate after the first interview with a client, and the client um will ask the candidate a very technical question, and then the recruitment consultant will then feed that to every other candidate. But firstly, you don't know whether or not the guy's going to ask the same question exactly. And then, well, if all your candidates are giving the same answer, how do you really differentiate yourself? And I go on and on and on and I just find it really very interesting about the tech because I'm I'm I like the technical side of things like what why did you say that? How did how did that come about? >> Um when you advise candidates, how do you balance honesty with optimism um when advising senior people? >> I I think that's a really great question. Um and I don't I I think that's really nuanced actually. You know, I think that um I think you always I mean you always have to be honest. You always have to be objective. Um or certainly I always have to be honest. I again I have to live in this market and I can't put people into a job where I know that there is a difficult hiring manager or a difficult line manager or there is some history that I know that others don't. Um and with 27 years of history here, I I've got quite a lot of background information. So um honesty is always first and foremost. Objectivity is is always first and foremost. Um and I would I would say balanced optimism. You know, you kind of go in my mind I think the message very much is look I >> and again this is this has to come from self-belief. If if I don't believe it then I can't sell it 100%. So everything that I sell um >> I I it's it's always not a sell. It's always this is what I this is I genuinely think this is the right thing for you. So I'm optimistic but if it's if there is a reason to be uh guarded then I will always say these are the reasons why you should do this. This is a great opportunity for you. This is a great platform but be aware that there is you know this person is difficult to work with. This person is difficult to work with. they have a reputation and I'm very open with my candidates about what I know objectively. >> Um again, you have to put I think all your cards on the table and allow your candidate to make that decision. >> Yeah. >> Um as much as you want to make that sale. >> Um you got to be straight. >> You've got to be straight. >> I love that. You know, like small little things, you know, that that we do that I do that I I don't know if they're very different, but I assume they are. So quite often you'll have three candidates that go all the way. 7 8 9 10 interviews sometimes um and then one person's chosen and quite often most organizations will never feed back to those individuals what happened. And the problem is as a recruiter you're giving that information back and you know you you as the messenger you know they might want to shoot you. Um, so what I do is I I I will call somebody. Sometimes I have a coffee and then I write them a letter and I've actually shown it to the CEOs or the heads of HR that I work with um a couple of times because I want to make sure that they're okay with the message because legal and compliance won't allow them to send that and it's a very positive message and there's there's an explanation and I I I send it to them because they've got it on paper and they can go back to it because you know you've invested and I said look thank you for going on this ride with me. I'm sorry it hasn't worked out and um you know I just why because I think if imagine if you were in that process and at the end of it you really wanted that job a little bit of insight you know and and maybe they couldn't have done anything different so I I just like doing things like that that hopefully carries some weight. >> I sorry to interrupt I I I think feedback is >> crucial. I think feedback is really important and >> we don't get it we don't we often don't get it from our clients. Um, and um, you know, I want to do it's my reputation on the line. I want to be the person with my candidate that gives that candidate as much information, good or bad, to say this is why you didn't get the job because that only improves that candidate's opportunities the next time and my opportunity with the candidate the next time. >> So, you know, if there are client if my clients are listening today, you know, I please give us more feedback. Please give us better feedback >> because it's normally just no. >> Yeah. It's just it's normally just a no. Yeah. What question do you wish candidates ask you more often? >> Um I don't I I don't know actually. I I'm not sure it's a question I can answer. Um like yourself, I think I I try and anticipate um hurdles and questions before I try and put as much information um you know into that discussion as as possible. Um, I I I I guess I'd wish they'd asked me um earlier in the process about um platform and and personalities than they than they do. Um, but again, I kind of offer that up. If I know something, I I tend to offer that up. You know what I've come to the conclusion because this this is where I fell out of love with recruitment for a long time was there was no real gratitude. You know, it's like and what I kind of thought of it was like you buy a a house, your real estate agent shows you that house and you buy the house and you don't really think what are they doing? How much work has gone into securing this? Um and and I feel very emotionally connected with a lot of the people that I work with, you know. So, I can tell you I in in 20 years of owning my company >> and in 31 years I've been in the game, uh two people have only ever come and sent me a gift, a bottle of champagne or anything. And um you know when we play someone on day one there's going to be a bottle of champagne, flowers or a book. It depends on the individual. Uh because you know my mom taught me my amazing mother taught me to write thank you notes and I'm always grateful but sometimes I just wish that that was you know a little bit more and and ironically on the career coaching side because ironically because the candidates are paying me to people are a lot more gracious. It's weird. It's so weird because they think we're only getting paid. And one of the things that, you know, it doesn't happen so much now because we have fixed fees with a lot of organizations that are predetermined. But when I first started my business, um, I would say to the client, look, just so you know, we can cap the fee at this amount before we start the negotiation process because I don't want you to think I'm escalating uh the compensation of the individual to escalate the fee. And that would just make them feel very comfortable. And I I just love transparency because transparency goes a long way. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's that's big. >> I I really I like your idea and if I'm learning a lot here, I you know, you and I should probably have a discussion about how I can sell better because I like what you told me. But I do like this idea of of um of thank you notes uh and and thank you gifts. You know, it's something that we used to do a lot of and it's something that I perhaps have lost sight of. Um and like yourself in 27 years, I think it's only happened a couple of times where a candidate has sent me, you know, a nice crater of wine or something. It's, you know, one one of my career coaching clients, which I I have a lot of testimonials on my career coaching website, but I don't post them on LinkedIn because it's a bit sensitive that you've engaged somebody to help you. It shouldn't be because if you see a personal trainer, um, you know, we've we've had the same personal trainer. There's nothing wrong with talking about it. So this gentleman who's a CIO of a major bank uh I've been his career coaching client for some time and he put a post up and he me he because he's changing jobs he's moving to Abu Dhabi and um he thanked his wife one of his best friends ex-colagues and me and he actually you know referenced me in a very public way and um I just I was very because that to me is a gift right testimonials are a big thing and by the way some of the other techniques I'll just touch upon this that I'm really big on and I train um a lot of the sales people I work with and the businesses I work with not just my staff is getting referrals. I always say what percentage of your business is from referrals. I said there is an entire science behind how and when to get referrals. The key is that the people have to trust you. They got to respect you. Yeah. But how you ask for referral when you ask for a referral. So on average I think 40 well I know because I measure it but on average in the last 10 years 46% of our placements the candidates were sourced from a referral. Right? that someone trusted somebody. So like I've just placed a COO. I've known him for 20 years, but he'd left and gone to Europe and we'd lost contact in the last 3, four years. And a friend of his who I had called about the role. I asked him, look, can you think of anyone else if if you're not open to relocating to Singapore? He said, actually, do you know this gentleman? I said, yeah, I've known him for 20 years. I said, I think he wants to come back to Singapore. and you know and and that person that I'm working with, you know, I I will make sure that I send him a nice bottle of wine and just to thank him because it goes a long way, right? Goes a long way. Um oh, the last thing I wanted to share with you uh is this. So, I always look at the employment contract of the individual, the candidate, where they're coming from, and then I draft their resignation letter. I often place and specialize in placing teams. So how do they leave without in you know impinging their infringing their non-solicitation of client clause of employee clause? Um quite often the banks I work with their in-house counsel will not look at an external contract which to me is bananas. So I will take them to my lawyers and you know you know a very senior guy that worked for me one time got the hump because I said why didn't you get send them the draft version of the resignation letter and then he said the guy's got a bloody PhD from LSSE in economics. I'm sure he can write his own letter. I said that's not the point. We're trying to make it easy for him and and also it's about candidate control um and and and a relationship building process. So, that individual had a six-month contract. And I read his contract. I'm dyslexic. I wasn't very good at school, but it was clear to me that it was if he went to a direct competitor, six months. But if he didn't, we could get him out in a month. Went and took him to my lawyer, I paid for it, and we got him out in a month. And I think those things are invaluable. And it also uh protects the individual. And then I have a list of things that you shouldn't you shouldn't do if you're leaving. Um especially you know if you are in a revenue generating role non-solicitation people will send themselves you know information on their clients go to the photocopy of big brothers watching email themselves lists. Do you know what I mean? And the these are things that um people will often overlook including the CEOs of a lot of banks. I say no and if it goes wrong it's on the individual. They're in trouble. You know, I could go on about that for ages. >> Those are those are fantastic tips and that's excellent service actually, Paul. That's really really amazing service. >> Yeah. Just and the great thing is is um I think it also builds credibility and trust when people have seen that you've put that amount of work in and they go, you don't want to be sued, you want this to happen. Right. And uh very powerful. Okay. Personal because I love stuff like this. Name a book or a film that really left an impact on you. So, I saw this question on your list and and I um uh Dead Poet Society. >> Oh, yeah. >> Um perhaps for the wrong reasons because you know the the whole idea of Carped DM and Seizing the Day. Um I I think changed my world view a a little bit. Um you know it I I was organized and planned [laughter] uh much more organized and planned than I am now. you're going to blame Robin Williams. >> I am blaming Robin Williams and all that that that team. Uh so I suspect that had a fair influence on how I viewed the world. Um you know, it came at a at a I guess at a moment in in my life where where I was making some different life decisions. Yeah. One of my best friends is about your age and he was uh in a low point in his life and he said that movie completely changed his life. It's a it's very moving. >> Um habits and practice. How do you recharge and unwind outside of work? Because you know at our age I'm a little bit younger than you but we talk about energy management, health, >> how do you unwind? >> So um I you know I play cricket um and that for me is you know I'm going to do I'm going to play cricket now after this. Um, so that's something that I do at weekends and I enjoy it and I enjoy that for the camaraderie and the friendship and and you know the community um uh rather than the the physical exertion because it's not desperately, you know, I'm not exerting myself physically necessarily. I do like to exercise. I do like to get into the gym or go for, you know, walk. I've gone I can't run anymore, so I will walk um you know, as as much as possible. >> You used to cycle into work. >> Yeah. And I'm I'm you know I've been lazy and I haven't done that but I'll do that again. Um you know I'm I'm trying to do that again. Uh and then spend time with family. Right. So um while while they were around and now they're not around. It's it is you know it's quality time with >> Mrs. >> my yeah my life partner. Right. So >> um who's been my best friend. >> I love it. >> Um since we were 17, right? Or 18. So um >> so yeah it's it's >> you know you you know what >> our wives are superstars because they put up with us right? >> Yeah 100%. [laughter] So actually you know so so spending time with her and spending time you know we have a dog so we take dog for a walk and that so that's how I that's downtime for me. I don't get enough sleep and I probably should get more sleep. >> I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that. Um top three cricket players of all time. Your favorite to watch? uh Viv Both uh and at the moment I am loving watching Ben Stokes. >> Okay, interesting. And top three footballers. >> Uh I was a big fan of Peter Shilton because I was a goalkeeper. >> He was he was a beast. Just commanded commanded everyone. >> I loved watching Gaza uh growing up. >> My what's your favorite goal? My favorite goal was when he scored and it was in the European Championships against Scotland. >> Magnificent goal. Love that goal. >> That that goal was just magic everywhere. Just the just everything about that goal. >> Love that goal. >> With with Schultz, actually with Schultz, I'm going to go for the whole of that Nottingham Forest side actually. But Schultz was a was a particular favorite of mine. Uh and I love I love Gary Lker. Um because because he's a maner. >> Yeah. >> But I love what he's become. >> Yeah. And what the thing about Gary Lker is um and that's why you know I love Roger Black because he's but Gary Lker good-looking, well spoken, right? Comes across really well. He's not a thug. He was elite at what he did. >> So passionate, you know, I remember that >> um that that World Cup when um >> Gaza was was having a breakdown. Yeah. And he was saying, "Look at Gaza. He's crying. He's going to lose it." >> And obviously what he's done since. Yeah. Yeah, great great man, >> great empathy, um strong values, a backbone, you know, um you can you can um agree with his views or not, but he he has a he's a backbone. >> Let's put it out there. We're going to use this to pull Gary Lker into the podcast. [laughter] >> I'm going to do it. >> Get him in there. >> Get him in there. What a great guy. Um productivity hack or ritual that you use? Um, I'm terrible with productivity, so I'm not sure I can answer that question. >> But you're always in the office. The one thing about you and I that, you know, I realize because a lot of people don't have discipline and just getting getting to work, getting to the office. My point is during co people didn't have to. When you work on your own, you don't have to. But I think turning up is a big thing, right? >> Yeah. Look, I think turning up and being present is is huge. I think that's almost a that's almost a non-negotiable. I think um writing lists is is you know to a daily to-do list I think is again I think it's almost a non-negotiable having so you can actually just work through your non-negotiables that you know you can work through your your lists. Um I think that um putting the phone away in a drawer and perhaps even locking it up is what improves productivity no end. Right. It's kind of the I love having access to to the phone. It's really I think it's a very productive tool. WhatsApp is very very good. But actually it can be super distracting. Um and >> we turned we tend to >> look at you know LinkedIn and WhatsApp as we think we're doing we think we're working but actually we're not. We're just basically >> um you know shuffling paper. >> Spot on. >> Yeah. One of our previous bosses I think talked about shuffling paper and that is shuffling paper. Yeah. >> So, I think that in a lockable drawer and checking, you know, once an hour is, I think, helps productivity a lot. >> I wish I could I wish I could say those are the things that I do. [laughter] >> We're all We're all working on these things. We always will be. Well, look, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for sharing your story and um you know, a lot of lessons learned. I've I've learned a lot from you and I appreciate your friendship, man. >> Thank you, Paul. I I thank you for giving me the opportunity to do this. I'm sorry I got emotional, but that's that's who I am. That is who you are. That's Listen, that's all right. If you don't cry on this show, then I'm failing. Do you know what I mean? Love you, bro. Thanks. >> Thank you, mate. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. [music] >> [music]

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