Know Your Worth: Compensation Secrets with Souhila Keffi | #54

57% [music] of men negotiate their entry salary versus 7% of women. The mindset is a massive blocker. It's really about how they are holding themselves back and they are afraid of being perceived as greedy. They are afraid of damaging relationships. Women have been, you know, kind of raised to favor harmony over visibility. Compensation is really about identity. It's selfworth. feel underpaid but don't do anything about it. What's likely to happen down the road? >> They're going to resign. >> Exactly. I'm Sahila. I run an advisory company where I help companies define their uh compensation strategy and communicate it to employees. And at the same time, I help individuals negotiate their salary. It's not just about negotiation. It's about being able to have that pay conversation, removing the fear, creating the clarity. I use coaching to help people remove the internal barriers that are holding them back. >> And that that that's where it starts and it begins. If you don't have that in check, you're not going to be able to do anything. >> You can have the best negotiation strategy. It won't work. For me, confidence is the ability to embrace uncertainty. A lot of people think that salary is not negotiable. That's not always true. >> Good morning, Sula. How are you? >> Hi. Good morning, Paul. I'm very good, thank you. >> Well, firstly, have I pronounced your name correctly? >> Yes. >> Okay. Tell me about your your origins. Where did you grow up? G give a quick intro if you mind to my audience members that may not know you. >> Yeah, sure. But first of all, thank you very much for having me. I'm really excited to have that conversation with you. >> Me too. >> So, I'm Sahila. I am French uh born and raised in France. I have Algerian origins. So, I'm born from um Algerian parents and uh I've been in Asia for 13 years. >> Wow. You love it? >> I do. I wouldn't be here >> otherwise. That's true. But I find a lot of people stay and it becomes very transient. But for me, Singapore really ticks many boxes. Right. >> Totally. At many different levels, whether it's personal or professional. >> Yeah. So my curiosity is how did HR find you? >> I don't know whether it's HR who find me [laughter] or it's or if it's me who found HR. But um when I was studying, I was in a business school and uh there was no HR specialization. And that drove me crazy. That led me to talk to the management and to try and have them create that HR specialization because I was really drawn to, you know, people, their feelings, their fears, their what drives them. >> Um, so I ended up doing a master's degree in HR after I graduated from business school. Okay. And um and you know in my first internship that was in you know broad in a broad HR department my first um assignment was to do a satisfaction survey which is which we now call engagement survey. >> Yeah. >> And I loved it. >> Who were you doing it with? >> Uh it was a local company. Um you know back in the day I was still in France. It was a retail company. >> Did they take it seriously? >> They did actually. I am the one who suggested the study. >> Okay. >> In the first place and they were very pleased with the results and the you know corrective actions that we put in place as a result of the study. >> Yeah. You know I have to say I feel that HR it's in in Asia it's catching up a little bit. You know just growing up in the UK and having lived and worked around the world like in the US. Um but the one thing that I've noticed is there are a lot of HR generalists that haven't grown up in a particular silo. So you know you're a you're a rewards and a compensation expert and I I myself studied I got a diploma in compensation and benefits. So how did you know that this was your area of specialization as opposed to becoming you know an HR generalist and a head of HR? >> So HR is very broad and I very early in my career I knew that I wanted to have a specialization because the more specialized the more scarce you are. Yes. and the better compensated you are. I'll be fully transparent on that. >> When did you work that out though? >> When I was studying my in when I was doing my master's degree in HR, I figured that if you want to have some if you have to have if you want to have the greatest impact, >> then you'd better be specialized. >> And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that HR generalists are not having any sort of impact. But the way I saw it was compensation is technical, compensation is strategic. >> Yes. >> Um especially knowing that I started my career in HR consulting. So being a compensation expert back then gave me access to boardrooms, gave me access to C, you know, Seale um meeting. >> Yes. >> Uh gave me access to confidential and sensitive information. M >> and I'm glad I made that choice because when I moved from France to Hong Kong eight years after I started my career, there was talent scarcity in that area which led me to finding jobs almost right away to have options to be able to pick which industry, which company I wanted to work for and I'm very grateful for that >> as a as a consultant because one of the things I wanted because I was a consultant but I was really responsible primarily for the business development and then some of the implementation. Were you doing only the implementation or did you have to go and get and win the business? >> I used to do both. >> Okay. Cuz winning the business is not that easy, right? There's a lot of competition. >> Yes. It's not it's not easy especially in Europe where the market is very mature there is high competition >> and you know thinking back I'm glad that I was touching on the business development part because this is really the part that taught me the most >> okay >> understanding the clients >> asking questions um you know pinpointing what their pain points are >> what the challenges what challenges are they facing which solution are we going to offer? >> Yes. >> Is not straightforward. Yeah. >> And that's in my opinion where I learned the most. And again, I think I'm a very >> I need to connect with people. So I need to have that interaction with the the clients, hear them, understand them so that I can enjoy working with them. >> That's powerful. Did you work across many different industries or did you specialize in any particular ones? >> No, I worked across all industries. So um as a junior consultant I worked in pharma, I worked in luxury, retail, um chemical, you name it. Many, many different industries. >> Do you find they're all very different though in the way they view HR and compensation. >> Oh yes. >> Big time, right? >> Big big time. tell us because a lot of people that I'm connected with are in banking and and finance but what I've worked in you know being the technology of the oil and gas sector they all very they're all very different and my take is is that unless you're familiar with that particular industry it's not easy to speak the same language >> yeah that's right and you know there are things that we may not know about a particular industry and the way they approach compensation and I I guess at the end of the today. It really depends on the the business that they operate in, the availability of talent, uh how do they retain people. And so if you think about banking for example, there's a massive part especially in investment banking that is still discretionary >> in the way uh bonuses are defined. >> Yes. which is completely untrue in uh industries like tech for example where we see a lot of you know formuladriven bonus plans um you know in retail the way a um you know pay for performance plan is built might be very different from how it's built in pharma for example because um because you don't expect the same behaviors from your employees and the reason why uh performance systems are put in place is really to ensure that you create that correlation between the business strategy where the company is going and how employees are you know getting there. >> Yeah. >> Right. So it has to be a good translation of what do you expect from your people to do. >> Yeah. It's very interesting. I mean I I'll I'll touch upon this now but we'll come back to it later. So you've uh entered your entrepreneurial journey. Yes. which I'm very you know happy to talk about and I'm excited to discuss that but um your balance is that your portfolio is looking after corporate clients and individuals and sometimes I feel that you know the individuals I speak to or the corporations they might feel there's a conflict but the reality is compensation and HR should put it all together >> that's beautifully said and something I'm quite big about um so I run an advisory company where I help companies define their uh compensation strategy and communicate it to employees and at the same time I help individuals negotiate their salary. >> Yeah. >> Well, in reality, it's not just about negotiation. It's about being able to have that pay conversation, removing the fear, uh creating the clarity and and people and companies might think, what are you doing to my people? Are you training them to ask for more? Well, yes, but not just that. The reason why asking for more is important, especially when you are underpaid and when you feel underpaid, is because that's what's going to help employees find that alignment. >> You know, if you feel underpaid but don't do anything about it, what's likely to happen down the road? >> They're going to resign. >> Exactly. And then once an employee resigns, what's the cost for the company? >> Yeah. >> Right. >> That's we've, you know, we talked about this off camera because I don't think most corporations truly understand that or analyze it because it's very difficult to analyze, but I'll I'll just share with the audience an example as an owner of a search firm. So, let's just say somebody resigns. On average in Asia, if they're fairly senior, they're going to have a 3-month notice period. Could be 6 months, let's say 3 months. So at that point um the organization starts looking for a replacement internally and externally. Let's pretend they go external. That interview process these days for someone that's mid to senior level is 7 to 10 interviews. That takes a minimum of 2 months sometimes longer. So by the time that that person is made an offer, it's actually within the 3 months that the person resigned. At this point the individual, the incumbent's left. Then the new hire has three month notice period. that's 6 months from the resignation date and then it's another 6 to 12 months before that person's up running. So that means you're losing production. Um there's no harmony in the team because no one knows who's coming in, especially if they're a manager. If you've had to hire someone with a similar profile, you're probably having to pay uh an increment on top of what they're earning, which makes them ironically more expensive than the original incumbent. And then potentially you're having to pay a recruitment fee. So net net, the amount of money that you're losing is ridiculous. And that doesn't even go on to say, well, what happens if this person brings people with them or the other people fall out because the new person brings in their friends. So, it's actually very disruptive. >> It is. And I'm 100% with you. Companies don't always see that. But let's look at another scenario, >> okay? >> Which is a scenario where an employee feels underpaid but doesn't resign. >> What are the consequences for the company? Well, I am assuming that this person will not perform at his or her best. They might be disengaged. They might, you know, this which is something that might affect the company culture as well, company reputation. I mean, there are so many consequences to underpaying your people or to paying them right and not being clear on why you do what you do cuz you know um when so I spent 18 years in in compensation, right? And what I've seen a lot is companies spending tons of money building fancy pay systems >> but not spending enough time communicating them >> or training the managers to own them and you know to really feel equipped during that conversation with employees. >> Yeah. >> And the consequence of that is that no one understands how pay works. And when people don't understand something they can't trust it. So if you have a climate of suspicion around pay, you might be actually overpaid but don't see it as such. >> That's so interesting because I think when you have a lot of disenfranchised employees and I just want to touch upon this before I forget. So the area that I specialize is in private banking and relationship managers, the salespeople. The challenge is that certain organizations are not allowed to pay transparently through MAS, the regulators because they don't want to be perceived to be the pushing financial products on the clients and then potentially churning and burning them and other organizations have a certain level of transparency. I always think that where where possible if you have a certain level of transparency and then you know if I break it down sometimes you'll have a target related bonus linked to your performance based on a number but the problem is let's just say you don't hit that number you're at 99.9% potentially you don't get paid anything so I I always love the construct of percentages >> because percentages are very transparent they're easily understood but we we'll unpack that in a minute before we go any further I want to just you know go through with the audience members cuz you set up your own business >> but before that you worked for some top tier organizations. What was the genesis behind that and what was the whole decision-m process like? >> Okay, so like I said I started my career in consulting and then I moved from Paris to Hong Kong in the same consulting company and to my biggest surprise same company totally different job. >> Ah how so? different markets, different clients, different methods. >> Um, and I to be completely fair, I think I came, you know, I was back then I was probably 27 or 28 years old. I came with my assumptions. You know, I think perhaps I was not curious enough and I tend I tried somehow to duplicate what I had learned in Paris >> which was not suitable to local specificities. >> Yeah. you know, um, on the other hand, I think Paris was a great training ground in the sense that it taught me to be resilient in a market, like I said, that was very difficult versus the Asian market, which when I when I arrived in 2012, >> yeah, >> was crazy. >> Very buoyant. I mean, Hong Kong in particular, I always say to people that don't know the difference, you know, in Hong Kong, you know, if it's a no cuz they kick you out of the office. And it's [laughter] and in Singapore it took me many years to learn you know yes yes yes is actually a no. So pros and cons pros and cons of both right. >> Yeah but back then clients will find us. >> Yeah they reach out to you looking for clients. >> Okay. >> Um and so I decided to move in house because I was curious. I wanted to find out what happens after you create a bonus uh a pay system after you design compensation in a company. As a consultant, you don't really see the impact on employees. >> Yeah. >> How is this affecting them? How do people react to it? How how successful is it? As a consultant, you just design and then you leave and it's up to the client to execute and >> and and follow up. So that's the reason that led me to move in house. And so when I moved in house, I realized that obviously compensation was >> a bit more transactional, a bit more um governance, salary reviews, market data, you know, >> which is great because it taught me depth. Um but after that first in-house role that I had in Hong Kong, I decided that any job going forward would be an internal consultant, >> which means still, you know, having that strong tie to the company strategy, working with key business stakeholders, understanding their you know talent issue and then proposing solutions that are aligned to this. So that's led me to that's when I moved to Singapore and so in Singapore I worked in finance and my last role was with AWS overseeing compensation for Southeast Asia as an internal consultant. >> By the way that's Amazon guys for those not everyone knows the the abbreviation. So how did you find out because it's one of the the most exciting interesting organizations in the world must have been an eye opener. >> I loved my Amazon experience. It's I won't say it's for everyone because the culture there is very present, very strong. Um, but I really really enjoyed the the pace of, you know, decisions. >> Was it very fast-paced? >> Oh, yeah. >> It must be. >> It is. Uh, it is, but it's not fast-paced for the sake of being fast-paced. You really understand why. I think as an Amazon employee, you understand why um speed matters, >> you know. Um and um I I love the leadership principles of Amazon. The bias for action, the think big is something that tremendously helps me. >> Yeah. >> When I started building my business. >> Yeah. And I would say that as of today, I still use those leadership principles. >> Can you share some of them? >> Well, think big is one. Yeah, think big. When I started my business and I started thinking about, you know, who am I going to serve and how am I going to do it, >> this wasn't the top of my head all the time. I have to think big, you know, I have I have to act fast. I have to um you know, I have to be curious, ask questions. Uh customer obsession is one of the leadership principles at Amazon. It's also something that I apply every day in how I work with my clients. >> It's everything. It it really is. I wanted to take you back. We talked about this on the phone, but um I back in the day, I would help companies create their flexible benefits program. And in Singapore especially, this is back in 2003, four and five. Um and with CPF, there's very little you can truly do. But like if someone is single versus married or married with kids or they have a disability, there are a lot of variations. And I worked with a French organization and the CEO was homosexual. And you know, I asked him, would you like to create insuranceances for same-sex partners? He said that that would be great. Thanks for asking me. So I said, of course. Um and I realized that you know, like in in in Asia, these things were not even being discussed. And I I found out later that he gave me the business because I asked that question. Um and then the other interesting thing that people don't realize is when two companies come together. So in my again in my area of private banking there's been a lot of consolidation. There's been a lot of acquisitions but then you take two uh groups of employees you have to put them onto the same compensation and benefits plan and that whole alignment period takes a long time and a year and again if you get it wrong that that leads to disenfranchise. So, so okay. So, you then are thinking about when are you starting to think about set up your own business and what is going on in your mind when you're assessing that? >> Ah, that's a good question. I think I'm just going to take a step back and mention about one phase in my professional career where I felt a little stuck. >> Okay. >> And I got mentoring and I got coaching and it helped me a lot. You know, I realized that I had some self-limiting beliefs that were holding me back. >> I realized that I was somehow waiting for permission, >> you know, uh when I could, you know, I was in the driver's seats of my own career. >> 100%. >> And that was a significant realization. Once I realized this, I decided to take a coaching training, not to become a coach. That was a few years ago, actually. not to become a coach but you know really thinking self coaching is very helpful uh you know coaching my teams is definitely something that every leader every leader needs >> 100% >> um understanding them listening you know uh helping them find their own solutions I think is absolutely crucial in today's world and I thought it would also help me you know in this consultative um you know work that I was doing with my business stakeholders. So I took that coaching training and um I really became drawn to it. I realized this is very powerful and um you know after a few years at Amazon I thought okay I want to do something meaningful purposeful I see gaps you know I think I have something to offer that I don't really see in the market which is you know offering my expertise >> you you you are the first person I've seen that does it exclusively I'm sure there are others but I haven't come across them So there are some you know uh coaches that offer help to negotiate salary but what I do I I think is quite unique in the sense that I use coaching to help people remove the internal barriers that are holding them back >> and that that's where it starts and begins. If you don't if you you know finishes sorry if you don't have that in check you're not going to be able to do anything. >> You can have the best negotiation strategy it won't work. >> Yeah. You have to own it. You have to feel it. You have to be convinced. So this is the first part of the work I do with my clients. And then we look at the numbers. I share my expertise. I look at market data. I, you know, I help them understand what works in the negotiation. How do you contextualize market data? What makes you uniquely positioned to ask for more? And by the way, do you really need to ask for more? you know. Yeah. >> So the blend of you know compensation expertise and coaching is I think what makes my approach quite unique. >> Did you did you when you started seeing that did you sit down with your husband or family or friends and said this is what I'm thinking of doing. Why I'm asking that is because for me I've been in business for 19 and a half years as a business owner and I always knew I was going to be a businessman. That was a foregone conclusion. And whenever I do anything I don't really ask anyone. You'll be surprised. I don't even ask my wife because in the past when I asked my the the two biggest influences in my life always been my my mother who's passed away now unfortunately and my wife but the thing is they would always air on the side of caution. >> Mhm. >> And because you know they're very conservative which is great but that's not me. you know if I'm driving I will accelerate into the corner right uh but I am curious because I think a lot of people even in the negotiation or in one's career success if you don't have a great partner you don't have a great family support system it's very difficult to truly operate at the highest level >> absolutely um I think I wouldn't have been able to do it with my without my husband's support >> wonderful >> um he didn't necessarily advise me on you know which way to go and how to you know design my value proposition because this was very you know personal and but he was very supportive from day one. I think I took a big risk which was to leave a successful career >> to build my business. >> And he said listen you do it but under one condition which is no decision no big decisions in the first three to six months. Take your time think about it because I'm a very passionate person. [laughter] >> I can see >> and he knows me. And so his only comment was, "Please do it. Think about it. Get your coaching certification, but don't go too fast. You know, really test the idea, talk to people." And I was very lucky that, you know, uh when I got certified in coaching, uh I became very close to the head of the coaching school that uh where I got certified. I I worked on a fractional basis with her. I become I became a trainer of coaches. I you know I developed my network met a lot of people and people came to me and asked for support. So I was able to test my method. >> You had a running start. That by the way why I mention that is very important because I always say to people let's just say uh like my wife she was uh a corporate lawyer. She worked in a law firm. Mhm. >> And I said, "Well, look, let's do a fast forward scenario. In in 5 8 9 10 years, you're going to hopefully become a partner. Do you even know what that looks like? Let's unpack it." So, in theory, most lawyers, of course, I understand what it means. Well, now you are responsible for generating revenue. How are you going to do that? So, I've I've trained a lot of uh lawyers and you know, I am at the core a salesperson and because I'm an introvert, I think I can share with people how how to go about doing it. So for most people I find that they talk about networking and networking is fine but in my mind the best salespeople they will have an idea [snorts] I want to work with this organization or with this individual I'm going to reach out to them directly and how to do it but why I'm mentioning that is if you speak to say five people that are doing it and that have walked your path some of them liked it some they of them didn't and they're granular they can share with you what it was like then you got to go away and do your research Um, and I always say do fast forward scenarios because if you go to setup and you leave your career behind and you don't have full conviction, it it could blow up in your face. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. So, so what you did was exactly the right thing to do. >> Well, thank you. I I'm pleased to hear this from someone who's so seasoned >> as you. But yeah, I >> Is that your way of saying I'm old by saying I'm seasoned? >> That's not [laughter] I'm teasing you. I am old. Yeah, >> you don't look old. Um, so I think one of the biggest challenges in building my business was to stay intentional. >> Talk to me about that. That's, >> you know, um, >> it's really about understanding what do I have to offer? What's my value proposition? Who am I serving? M >> and once I got clarity with that um you know when you start you you have to choose who you want to work with. >> Yes. >> And you need to prioritize depth over volume. >> I love it. >> Right. >> Yeah. I love it. >> Um especially in the business that I'm building, quality matters a lot. Yeah. >> And client satisfaction is >> paramount. Right. So I found myself in situations where I had to decline partnerships, decline, you know, um, opportunities. >> Wow. >> And this is this is hard when you start. >> Yeah. >> But in retrospective, I'm glad I did it because it allowed me to really stay focused and make sure my business is sustainable. >> And listen, we've I worked with an organization recently and it was the wrong client to partner with. Um, I've I've only ever made that mistake twice. >> So, I can't say I have the experience of making bad decisions. Um, but when you look at it, you realize I've we've spent a lot of time, we waste a lot of time with this particular client. So, you're absolutely right that wisdom. Um, what about for you going out and getting the business, getting new clients on board, you know, was that a challenge for you? >> I'm very very lucky that it wasn't. >> Wow. >> It wasn't at all. Um there truly is a need in the market. Yeah. Of you know people getting that support, that confidence and that clarity. Yes. >> On how they handle pay conversations. >> Um I think at the beginning the challenge was that people don't know me >> and if they don't know me they cannot reach out. >> Yes. Uh but the minute I create that connection with someone who is going through you know an episode of you know negotiating conversation >> uh building trust is something that has not been a challenge at all and referrals are very powerful and so I create >> talk can we talk about that because 46% of my business pretty much every year from referrals and I think it's the most overlooked part of business. I love how accurate the number is. >> I measure it. I I measure it because I say to my guys, so for example, we've just placed a a COO and I've actually known him for 20 years, but he moved to Europe and we'd lost contact for the last 10 years. >> Okay. >> And my head of research arranged for me to speak to a very senior candidate in Hong Kong who was not interested to relocate, but he said, "Look, do you know this guy?" I said, "Actually, I do." He said, "I think he might be a good fit. I don't know if he's looking, but he's a good friend of mine." and you know and then clients are often referred to us. So actually in terms of my corporate clients uh believe it or not 80% of them have in the last few years have been from referrals but the candidates and the career coaching clients 46% have been referrals. >> That's not bad. >> Can't complain. >> Yeah. >> But people don't work on it because I think I I'll share with you I'll break it down. So in order to get referrals firstly you've obviously got to be adding value to the people you're working with. That's number one. >> Yes. you know, and part of that means that you have to have integrity, you know, you're really uh providing kindness, all these things I think that are overlooked, but I also think it's when you ask, right? So, if I'm asking somebody and they're under a lot of time pressure, they're not going to do it. So, I'll set it up. I'll say, "Well, can you refer me to to any candidates in this space?" >> Mhm. >> And if, for example, you would prefer not to me for me to disclose your name, that's fine. But if I can, it would go a long way. It would be very meaningful. Um, and then I said, "Have a think. No problem." And more often than not, most people will go away and they'll think about it and because you've you've added value to them at some point in your journey with them, >> they'll come back with something. >> Yeah. I love that. I mean, my approach is slightly different because >> my clients value confidentiality. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so, not all of them are open to sharing with others that they consulted someone to get help on that. By the way, we we we have the same thing because as as head hunters, we have to stay hidden. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Very much so. Very much so. >> So, you understand, right? >> Big time. >> Um but yet a happy customer is a customer that's going to refer you. I think it's as simple as that. Yeah. You know, >> and um and I've seen, you know, most of my business coming from, you know, past clients. >> And um >> well, that that tells a story. the fact that they they want to engage you again or refer clients. What percentage of your time roughly is spent with corporate clients versus individual clients? Is it quite balanced? >> I think 2/3 with individual clients and one/ird with corporates. But when I work with corporates, I usually work on bigger projects. >> Yeah. >> You know, consulting projects, benchmarking or designing a pay philosophy or designing a bonus plan, you know, it it takes more time. >> Can you can you unpack that? So, let's just say a corporation engages you to review their compensation plan. Um, where do you start? Like, you know, cuz there's so many different moving components. And who are you speaking with? Are you speaking to the the CEO, the CFO, the head of HR? >> So, it depends on the size of the company obviously. >> Uh, I don't work with massive corporations because they have the resource internally to work on their compensation, right? But I see a lot of you know um middlesized companies or even startups who need who don't have the resource and they need to get structured on compensation especially so take the example of a startup that is scaling very fast >> and they've been hiring people here and there but they don't have a framework in place they don't have a compensation what we call a compensation philosophy so that's the very uh you know that's the starting point and it's really sitting with you know the leadership team of the company and asking them what do you want to compensate? What type of talent do you want to attract? What do you want your compensation systems to say about how you treat your people? >> What are the values that you are um supporting here with your compensation strategy? >> Yeah. And formalizing that is the very first step to building a compensation strategy because every other compensation decision is going to be based on you know that foundation you know so I help them do this and then the rest is a bit more technical you know if we look at building a bonus plan for example of course we look at the philosophy first but we and based on the values for example If you are um say a luxury company and that you value the quality of service then you may not want to assess your employees on purely quantitative metrics. Yes. but rather look at client satisfaction, feedback, you know, um the the frequency of payment will differ depending on the jobs, the the industry, the you know, and again, like I said earlier, the behaviors that you are trying to create in your workforce. >> Have you ever worked with recruitment companies? I'm just curious. >> No, >> because what's what's interesting, you know, obviously first and foremost, I own a recruitment company. Um, but I've analyzed how they all pay and there are different constructs. And what I find with most sales plans or commission related plans is the more you bill, the less you earn as a percentage against revenue. And I've always found that interesting. And when I ask people, well, where did this come from? Where does this begin? No one knows. So I said, well, it doesn't make sense because in theory, you're saying, well, we're going to pay less for this uh for this person who's delivering more. Why? Well, they need more infrastructure. They need two assistants. They need, you know, more marketing. And and I said, "No, there's something called economies of scale. It doesn't make sense." And in my humble opinion, if you want to have a top flight performance, so before I set up my company, I was the number one guy in the company. And I didn't understand. I said, "You're going to penalize me for doing more." That just doesn't make any sense. >> And you know, I just want to say, "Welcome to the wonderful world of compensation." Yeah. You know, >> it's complex, right? >> It is complex. And there are inconsistencies. And I'm not blaming compensation professionals with that. It's really hard to create something that's fair, understandable, simple. Um we do see a lot of inconsistencies in the way that some of the plans are built. >> Yeah. >> And um it's not the case everywhere, >> right? Some companies are very very good at understanding what drives their employees and translating that into simple systems. >> Yeah. and some others tend to really complexify it and not really make it logical. Um it's not the first time I I hear about a plan where the more you achieve then >> the less you earn. >> Just out of curiosity if you have just based on your experience you've got a sales team and there's a level of ambiguity on the sales bonus structure. So, in other words, three people can be on different plans versus one universally transparent plan. Which one do you think makes more sense? I would definitely say the latter because everyone knows what everyone's earning in theory and no one's going to the bar talking saying you're earning how much? I'm earning this much, right? I always, you know, my humble opinion is transparency really works. But what has your experience been? I mean I am very big on pay transparency and this is what really drives me to support people in you know normalizing pay conversation. So I am uh inclined to answer that the second uh approach is best. However there's always nuance. >> Yes. >> And I guess if you want to pay transparently then it doesn't mean paying identically >> right. is just creating a system where um people understand why they are paid what they are paid. >> Yeah. >> If people are contributing differently and as a consequence paid differently, are we able to explain that difference? >> Well, I I'll give you a really good example. One of my clients was a multif family office and I sat down with the two owners and they wanted to talk about compensation ideas and we spent about an hour and a half together uh up on the whiteboard and they said, "Okay, that's what we're going to do." And I said, "Guys, you need to slow down because what you're about to do is going to cement what you're able to accomplish in the next 5 to 10 years." and you're doing it thinking you understand, you don't understand what the pitfalls are because whatever you create today, you're going to pay a little bit more to welcome the pioneers of the business. Um, but in 2 years time it might be a little bit different, right? So, for example, if you don't play a ceiling or a floor on things and uh you're going to run into possible issues and they were so eager to do it, they thought I was creating uh constraints and I said, "No, think about this. Your whole business plan >> is working on the premise that you're going to hire great people that are going to bring revenue to the business. You want to do this in a 90-minute discussion and this is make or break. You get this wrong, it's going to you're you're going to, you know, shackle yourself before you even begin. And I think they gradually got it, but still I don't think they fully understood it. And um it becomes a problem later on. You know, it could be a year from now, two years from now. >> Yeah. And I think again that the the correlation between how how you pay people and how you achieve your your business strategy is not always clearly understood. Yeah. You know >> uh however I just want to add that in compensation the way I see it is there's no right or wrong. >> Okay. there's just um alignments with you know the strategy >> correct >> the talents the market challenges and so the there's the art and the science compensation will >> yes 100% >> and and that's as a compensation professional that's what has always been you know the challenge I was facing in corporation it's not just about numbers it's not just about benchmarks it's you know using those numbers and using the context. >> Yeah. >> To understand what would work and what won't work. >> And with my clients, that's the exact same logic that I apply. You know, we don't just look at numbers and say you are underpaid, you need to ask for more. No, no, no. It's okay, let's contextualize >> what do you have evidence that you are underpaid. >> Um, you know, what makes you think that you deserve more? uh what makes you uniquely qualified in your role? What's the impact that you have that can justify an increase? You know, it's really about understanding all of this. What are the market conditions as well? You know, maybe [clears throat] it's not the right time to ask for a raise. >> Yeah, it's so important to understand all of that. And the the other thing I find is interesting. So, a lot of my clients, my corporate clients, uh will always ask me what's the candidates expectations. >> Mhm. And I always explain to people and by the way I've read I think nearly any book that was written on recruitment from every different angle >> from the head hunter's perspective, the in-house perspective, the HR perspective, the CEO's perspective, the candidates perspective. Um, so I'm talking to people that have never thought about negotiation. I've I've built my career on 30 years on negotiation and I' I understand it very very importantly. So I say you ask a candidate, they're going to give you a number and it's up here. They're always going to go up here, especially when they're speaking to the head hunter. Then I ask you, the corporate client, what's your number? You're going to say this. So if I turn around and say to the corporate client, look, the candidates's thinking 22 250. The number you're going to hear is 200. If I say to the candidate, the client's thinking 250, they're going to hear 250. So what I say is that's the candidate's number, that's your number. Anything in between, I call that the magic circle. and how do we try to close it? Um, but I always try to sit down and some sometimes a lot of organizations will say let's go back and forth, let's negotiate, let's go in low, >> right? And I, you know, I'll say just out of curiosity, >> uh, you know, you've got a beautiful wedding ring on, did your fiance at the time go in with a cheaper ring and say, will you, will you accept this one? No. He's gone in with one ring. Knowing you, you probably helped him choose it. [laughter] >> Did you? >> Yes. >> Yeah, of course. There you go. See, I could read people very quickly. So when you work on that premise, no one's thinking like that. And I say, well, actually, how do you want to begin this relationship? Do you value the person? So if so, why are you messing around? Going with a realistic number, fair and reasonable, equitable number that you're comfortable with, they're comfortable with. And but then it's the psychology I'll share with you on the hiring manager side, the HR manager side, which is well, we've gone in given them what we think is our best off and they said no, I'm going to get shot in the head. So then it comes down to thought process. How do you present the numbers? So you know the the thing with me which is very unusual is I structure the deal. >> Okay? >> Right? So that I have never met anyone in my job that has hired more people than I have placed directly, right? It just doesn't make sense. That's what I do for a living. And most people aren't sitting down and granulizing and thinking a little bit about it. And I think that's so important. So actually understanding what's not just on the candidate side, on the hiring management side, you know, that team and what their thought processes are is so fundamental. Now, one of the things that I really want to get into is the psychology. And I think you're an expert in positioning this. What is the difference between how men and women typically, not always, but typically will negotiate? >> There are many differences and there was some research done around it uh with some very interesting numbers. Well, first of all, men tend to negotiate more than women. You know, um, an interesting statistics that I use a lot is 57% of men negotiate their entry salary versus 7% of women. >> Wow. >> I think that draws the picture. >> Who knows numbers now? See, now you know you're giving the numbers as well. That's [laughter] crazy difference. >> That's crazy difference. And >> is that is that like internationally? No, it's a US um study, but I think based on what I see and hear from my clients, I can, you know, tell you with confidence that this is not an isolated phenomenon. >> Yeah. >> Um men t I don't want to stereotype, but men tend to be a little more aggressive when it comes to negotiating >> 100%. >> And they tend to anchor higher than women. Mhm. >> A woman needs to be prepared and needs to understand the situation before she's ready to give a number. >> Yeah. >> Right. Then the other thing is um you know men tend to be more aggressive but it's okay because a man that negotiates is seen as assertive. >> Yeah. >> A woman who negotiates might be perceived as difficult. Mhm. >> And this is a bias that you know we >> we have to live with. It's women are judged a bit more harshly >> than men. >> Yes. >> And you know women have been you know kind of raised to um to to to to favor harmony over visibility. We're not trained to be visible and to and so this is something that translates in how we show up in a pay conversation. I see this consistently with my female clients. You know, the mindset is a massive blocker. Uh it's not about their skills, it's not about their leadership, it's really about how they are holding themselves back and they are afraid of being perceived as greedy. They are afraid of damaging relationships. They are afraid of rejection. I'm not saying, you know, male clients don't have these issues, but what I have noticed is that, you know, um clients won't come to me for the same reason based on their gender. >> Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, I I'll I'll take one step backwards. So if someone is interviewing for the role externally or internally, so I I I had a I was we were doing a COO placement and there was a wonderful lady who was very honest about what she could do and what she couldn't do. And I said to her, look, the number one advice I can give you is to say to them, I can do this. Leave it with me. I'll take care of it. >> That's it. That's all they want to hear. >> So I said, for example, I've never been a COO. I can do that job. She goes, "Well, you know, I've done this for 20 years." I said, "I could do this job. The reality is I probably do it better than you." And she actually accepted what I said. [laughter] >> So, so she but she did. Now, the real the reality is I think I probably could cuz that's just my psychology, right? But but all joking aside, I said to her, "Look, >> you're not going to get the offer if you go in with that mindset." >> And I'm not saying you don't need to BS anything, right? But the reality is you've done all of this in amazing organizations and you're talking about that, but actually this is your strength. Why? Because that's the exciting reason why you want to take on the role. You want to learn about this. I love this >> and and you've got a black belt in all these areas and to transition it. So what I what I say cuz I've I've actually equally got weighted um male and female clients. I I don't differentiate. But what I always say to the ladies is look, when men are not sure, they puff up their chest and they BS it. Yeah, I can do it. Right. just just as a general rule of thumb. And most ladies will be a little bit more uh introverted, a little bit, you know, shy about what they're talking about. And then you have the women that are >> better than the men, the outliers. >> Mhm. >> The ice maidens. That's how they're perceived. And they're perceived in that way because in order to be tougher than the men, you've got to be just different. But the reality is when I speak to most of these ladies actually behind closed doors, they're they're absolutely lovely. Most of them are married, right? So I ask, "How do you balance that?" Right? Some of them are the rain makers, some of them are not. Um but you know, we're all human. But this is to me the biggest hindrance for women and as I said like my my mom and my wife almost my biggest heroes. And my mom said this to me who was, you know, Chinese Singaporean, but she lived in the UK all of her professional life. One time she got a promotion and her her boss who was a man said, "You're only getting this promotion cuz you're a woman and you're a woman of minority." >> Wow. Very classy. >> Yeah. And my mom said, "Well, it's only taken 40 years of my career for that to work in my favor." So, thank you very much. Right. And um but you know, unfortunately, there are people that still think that way. So, so go back to this. Let's unpack this. When you're sitting down with a woman, >> Yeah. >> just break down some basics that that you know, they should be mindful of. Don't give away all your secrets, right? But give some. >> I think reframing is extremely important. Before reframing, it's actually deconstructing the the current beliefs. >> Yes. the belief that they don't deserve to be well- paid. The imposttor syndrome that is creating all the self-doubt and you know make make them hesitate to ask and and then refraraming the fact that having a pay conversation is not a confrontation. It's more um you know collaborative slashwin conversation. >> Yeah. >> Between an employer who is you know uh doing a business transaction with an employee. >> Yes. >> I think that helps a lot. One advice that um that I always give to uh some of my female clients who are very shy with pay conversations is to think that they are negotiating on behalf of someone. M >> uh whether it's a good friend, whether it's their daughter, someone that they care for. >> But um you know, it's important that you think about someone that you care for, but at the same time, you create that emotional detachment >> that is creating the fear and the you know the shyness and and you know when you do that you become more rational, more logical and more composed. Yeah, I love that. You know, it's just interesting. So, we we did a placement recently in Dubai. >> Mhm. >> And HR and the hiring manager asked because the candidate had three offers coming through. One was through my client, can he present the offer to prove the other offers and then we can match it or beat it. So, I said, well, first and foremost, I think we shouldn't do that because we're going to do that. I mean it implies either you don't trust him, you don't value him. >> Yeah. >> And more importantly, what sort of character is going to go out there and get three offers and leave two standing at the altar? >> Right. And I I just completely disagree with this. Let's do an analysis. Ask yourself, what do you win if you get him on board and what do you lose if you don't? And pull together the numbers. It's very simple. >> Yeah. >> Yes or no, in or out. So the the thing I always share with people and it's very difficult for people to truly understand this is to take that that word fear and to put it in a box and you know are you prepared to walk away but what I always say to most people in their current jobs is you shouldn't be asking just for a promotion in terms of title and pay rise you should be asking for influence and visibility to take on more responsibilities because I do believe money will come >> you can't always assume that it will come but the reality is if you take things on and the dichotomy is that most organizations will say we're going to give you this wonderful opportunity. We're going to double your responsibilities. You're going to have to work a lot harder. We're not going to give you a pay rise now, but if you deliver, then we'll do it. And then then you have to discuss that a little bit. Are they uh taking the mick? And then the last thing that I find really interesting is so many employees become a victim of loyalty. >> Oh, >> right. And and I believe there's a construct. I've done a lot of research on this, but you know in most organizations depends on your role and visibility. When you hit around 7 years, 8 years, you're considered part of the furniture and then it's almost like, hey, we don't need to worry about this person too much. But then if you do the math, if that person has stayed uh for 10 years and they're getting 3 to 5% increment, which probably is the average in a lot of industries, >> why are you not overlooking it? So you're you're waiting for this person to resign. Why are you not sitting down saying, "Hey, look, this person is valued. Let's have a chat with them. Let's give them a Rolex watch. Let's do all of that." But it doesn't happen because people are looking forward. They're not looking backwards sometimes at at their current crop of people. Is that what you find? >> That's exactly what I see. But from a from an individual standpoint, what I also notice is that uh someone who has been working for a company for seven, eight years, very loyal, they might also put themsel in the mindset of, oh, I should be grateful. They've been treating me well. I could be paid better, but then, you know, I don't want to I don't want to step out of my comfort zone. uh >> if I go work for another company, I could probably ask for 20% more, but I'm not taking that risk. >> And then how am I going to be perceived if I trigger that conversation internally because perhaps other people deserve more than you know deserve it more than me. So you know all the self-t talk that can lead you to stay silent. >> Yeah. And we know that silence has a cost. And you know, I can share my personal experience. When I moved from the consulting company that I worked for in Paris to Hong Kong, I didn't negotiate my salary. >> I didn't negotiate my salary because I had been with the company for seven, eight years. I loved my job and um I felt grateful that they were offering me an opportunity in Hong Kong. >> Yes. Yeah. It happens, you know. You live and you learn. But but I I'll share. Someone said to me, I um they said, "You're expensive." I said, "Yes." Is that problem? Well, you're you you know, you're very expensive. You're you know, if you're doing this per this many hours per week, that means you're earning more than me. And I said, do you want to take advice from someone who earns less than you? What are you doing here? [laughter] >> Right. I don't even understand this question, but but I said, let's let's work out return on investment. >> You do have a personal trainer. Yes. How much are you paying that guy? $100 an hour. Okay. How old is he? What has he done? Okay. So, he's not done any sport at the national level. Uh, which I have done. What is he? What else has he done? Okay. Great. No, no disrespect to that guy. >> Yeah. >> Now, let's talk about my return on investment. Let's just say bare minimum. Bare minimum I can get you a $10,000 increment in one discussion working on the premise. Hopefully, you never earn less over the next 10 years. That's 100K. what is the ROI? And you earn a lot more money than than we're talking about. So, you're actually going to earn multiples of that. It's going to be compounded. So, maybe but actually, I don't know whether or not you get it. If you don't get it, I can't work with you. >> Yeah. And and you as an entrepreneur, >> you have to, you know, share with your clients what is the value that you bring. >> Yeah. >> You know, um I don't know whether I mentioned that, but I also I don't just help corporate employees. I I also work with solopreneurs >> uh service-based soloreneurs on you know and identifying the value that they bring and setting their rates because sometimes it becomes very personal and people are not comfortable with this and it's about the transformation that you bring. It's not about how many hours of effort you're going to put to deliver. It's really what am I you know what am I what transformation I'm am I creating for my clients. >> Yeah. you know so for what I do for instance it's not just you know uh you know hours of advisory sessions >> it's truly um you know building a negotiation muscle creating the confidence giving my experts view and creating long-term work satisfaction yeah you know so >> when I price my services I don't look at how much how much time I I puts but >> I look at the 18 years of compensation experience and you know >> yes yes that's the thing so I'll I'll share this one with you this one you'll you'll find interesting so um uh team of people global head of strategic recruitment HR CEO and they were talking about terms of business they wanted to negotiate it was we were maybe going to work with them for the first time and they said well your terms are too high I said okay why okay who are your major competitors Have you done your research on what they pay? They're recruiters. So, they're paying more than what you pay. So, in theory, why wouldn't I go and just work with them? So, I place the same individual with your number one and number two competitor, introduce the same candidate, I'll earn more money working with them. So, it doesn't make sense. And by the way, I'm not asking to earn more, but certainly not less. So, let's let me find out who is your top provider, not the name of the company, but the top provider in London and Dubai. Mhm. >> What percentage do you pay them? >> Oh, the same one that we've offered you. I said, so your top providers, you pay the same. Thanks very much. You've already told me why I shouldn't work with you. What do you mean? You've just told me that your top providers, you're looking after them. We're paying them less. Why on earth would I do that? Thanks very much. End the conversation. Right. And then of course they came back and they said, "Oh, you know, but I've just they hadn't even thought about the thought process that went into that. And you know, I think you said it earlier, negotiation is really psychology in action. >> Yeah. >> And we still see clients who are negotiating for the sake of negotiating. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Yes. >> And they see uh they see your rate and they just, you know, they just give it a try and but I think your approach is fantastic because you ask questions, you try to understand where they're they're coming from with their with their comments >> always. And that helps you um you know uncover their thought process. >> Yeah. >> And um and you stay in control of the conversation basically. >> Well, what what's interesting I always try and find well think about what you're going to get if if we work together or if I'm working with an individual or a candidate, I always help them understand well let's you got to be pragmatic. If you leave the company's not going to go into liquidation, who else is there to replace you? Okay. How close are they to you in terms of what's the gap? Are they do you think they'll promote that person? And if they have to look externally because you've got to get a real sense of where you sit in the grand scheme of things. >> You know, right now your head's being buried in the sand potentially. You've got to know what your competition is and and then have that conviction, which is not easy cuz cuz I have to say what what you coach people and and I do it as well, but I you know, you specialize in this is a core function. Um, think about this. Changing jobs, buying a house, getting married. These are the biggest decisions that you make. And the one thing about the compensation negotiation is no one is comfortable with it. [laughter] It's no one wants to deal with it. The CEOs don't want to they get HR. HR doesn't really want to. It becomes awkward. >> Um, and then I just last thing I want to unpack on the entrepreneurial side of things is going that route. What have you learned? What have your takeaways been going into business for yourself? >> I think my biggest learning is um that I am more creative than I thought. >> Okay. >> You know I think when I was working in corporate um I was not using you know my creativity at the fullest >> because of the you know context um and the environment that I was operating in. >> Yeah. And so now that I have my own thing and it's I it's I feel more aligned with who I really am. I feel that I can lean more on my strengths, my natural strengths. >> And I love it. >> That's very powerful. The other thing I've observed is a lot of my friends and people that I know that have gone into business for themselves, it's when and where. So what I mean by is like when in their life cycle you know married with children you know because when you have children things change or let's just say if your partners had an accident and now you're the sole breadwinner it changes everything >> and and also where I I.e. like for example not physically where but were you asked to leave >> Mhm. your current organization, you lost a job, now you're thinking of setting up. You know, in my experience, more often than not, that can be shortlived versus did you always really want to do it? Did you do it when you were at the peak of your career where you made that decision? And you know, a lot of people that go into business, they're always thinking about, you know, making millions of dollars. But I always say, look, when you start off, [snorts] you know, you might be living off bread and water to begin with, right? You have to ask yourself, do you really believe in this journey? Because it's not straightforward. There's a direct it's not there's a direct correlation between me being a businessman dealing with private bankers and my hairstyle. I guarantee you, you know, but um joking aside, what what I do think is this. I said this to to my son the other day. So, he's a he's a boxer. So, I said, if you look at the kids that queue up to play football, soccer, >> Mhm. >> it's got the biggest queue. Basketball a big queue. swimming bit of a smaller queue and in boxing there'll be two or three people and it doesn't mean that what you do is less competitive. It's more competitive in a very small circle because it takes a certain craziness, a lot of courage to do that. And that's exactly the same for entrepreneurialism because because a lot of people have said to me, Paul, you know what? I' I'd consider going into business with you if if I decided to go into business and give up this corporate thing. And look, a lot of the guys I work with earn a lot of money. But the reality is it's not in your DNA, son, because you haven't done it. You didn't want to do it. Like I always knew I was going to do it. Um, and you can do it at any stage in your life. You can do it in your 60s, in your 50s, and your 40s. It doesn't make a difference. But what does make a difference in my humble opinion is you have to know who you are >> and why you do what you do. >> Why that's the biggest reason >> to go back to what you said earlier, right? If the personal [clears throat] reasons are driving what you are doing, what this career decisions you make. I mean no judgments. I understand that some people could be in tough situation and they need to pivot professionally. >> Yes. >> But I guess you know it's different from when you have that you know inner call. >> Yeah. >> And and you and you try to pursue it. Personally I never knew I was going to be an entrepreneur. >> Really? >> I never knew it. I really started my career as a very ambitious young woman and I was drawn by status and you know you know uh >> I love you progression. Yeah. I mean uh I I was that type of person but now you know meaning purpose is what I value most >> and um and it's not easy because there is so much that you need to unlearn on a daily basis. >> Yeah. >> And I feel that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone every single day, every single conversation, you know, >> but I also learn a lot and that's what I enjoy. But you seem to be flourishing in it. Now, I've got I've got some rapid fire questions for you. >> Okay. >> So, professionally speaking, what was a red flag >> or what is a red flag that you spot immediately when you see a compensation structure? Is there anything that stands out? >> Complexity. >> If it's complex, you cannot explain it. If you cannot explain it, you it it creates suspicion and people don't trust it. >> Beautiful. What a what a simple answer. I [laughter] love it. I absolutely love it. What's a phrase or word that you wish professionals would stop using in their negotiation? >> I know it's not I know budget is tight or >> I think perhaps I could get more you know the >> the unsure language. >> Okay, you'd rephrase that. >> Um based on my research >> big time, >> this is what >> I think I should be getting. someone someone that I know and love dearly like will call the waiter and say oh so sorry can uh you know so sorry can have a menu or I always say you know you don't you know re redo the word it could be excuse me or >> you know it's just but it's it is interesting >> can't be apologetic because [snorts] it affects how people perceive you >> yeah I you you know I don't want to come across in the wrong way but I I think you have to really have a true sense of who you are, right? And confidence is a strange thing because we talked about this earlier but not in great detail. So, as an introvert, I've studied and analyzed this. So, a great definition of an introvert is someone if you spend time with people, even if you enjoy it, it naturally drains your resources. >> And what I find is that most introverts by definition, by extension, um maybe a little bit less confident to begin with, right? So, you need to understand that and and I'll I'll give you an example. So as you said about pretending it's your daughter. So I say imagine if you in the army my son you know had to learn how how quickly could you run 2.4 km. So I said let's just say you're trying to do it to get a good time. So that's number one motivation. Number two motivation is you want to get the best time in your unit and get a personal best. That's second. Third is here's $1,000. If you hit this, which one is going to motivate you the most? So he struggled. He said it was probably two or three. Okay. >> Right. So, let's say you put the two together. You, you know, you're going to win the money, get the best time, all the girls are going to be loving you. Okay? Now, imagine if you don't get to base count where your mom and sisters are. So, men are going to descend upon them. Now, what is the motivation? It's that one. So, the problem is, and that is compensation and negotiation in your salary because you're putting food on your table for your family for the rest of your life. But the reality is this is the one that kills most people because then it becomes fear. What happens if I get fired? What happens if I upset my boss? He's going to scold me. So actually this one I find destabilizes most people psychologically. But actually the reality is when you're talking about compensation, it's not that you're going to go out and buy a new handbag or a new car. You want to make sure you're paid fairly, equitably, >> and that you're valued >> and recognized >> 100% >> for your contribution. >> That's it. >> And that's the reason why I said earlier compensation is really about identity. When you talk when you talk about compensation in corporate, it's numbers, it's spending, it's budget. >> When you talk about compensation on the other side with individuals, it's self-worth, identity. Um, it's very deep. So check this out. This is a good one. So a client of mine, dear friend of mine said, Paul, we need to replace the HR team top to bottom. Uh we need to change the culture of the organization. Here's an Excel spreadsheet of the cost of the entire team. Can you please come in at this number? Ideally, even below it, >> of course. >> No problem. So um I found a great candidate who was not yet a managing director. So I said, "Look, this is what I'm going to suggest. I'm going to negotiate this for you if I have your blessing." She was in the head of HR. Um, but you know, I I I think she trusted me and I and she said to me, "It's okay if I don't get the MD title." And I said, "Don't ever say that again. We're going to get you the MD title cuz quite frankly, as the head of HR, if you're not MD, don't carry any weight." >> Yeah. >> Right. And influence, you know, so so >> leave that leave that buried. But I don't want to I don't want to I want this opportunity. I said I know but again don't let them know that much. We don't even have to discuss it. Consider it done. Let me take care of it. And um it was that's that's what happened. But it was very powerful. And because she's the head of HR, she still was afraid that and my point she gets it but she didn't get it. >> And she's lucky to have been you know advised by you because um a lot of women and that's also the story you shared earlier. um they wait to be 100% ready. >> Yeah. >> But you're never ready. >> You're never ready. >> You're never ready. Um you're right. >> If you're when when a woman reads a job description, and again, not to stereotype or anything, but this is quite obvious in in what we see. Uh if she doesn't meet 70% of the job requirements, she probably won't apply. >> Yes. versus a man who will maybe skim through the job description [laughter] and click the apply button. >> Yeah. And you know the other funny thing is I'll get back to the rapid fire quite a few of the roles that I've placed or not a few I I don't know a huge percentage there's no job description because either the roles newly created or I've helped create the role with the hiring manager or the candidate in mind and quite often the candidate will say to me but Paul there's no job description. I said yeah we'll write it. What do you mean? They've got to sign off on it. I said, "Yeah, we'll write it." Because think about it. Where did the job description originally come from? The previous incumbent or if it's a newly created one, the hiring manager who doesn't know because you're going to have to create the business plan. HR kind of understand it. >> Yeah. >> So, guess what? This is the golden opportunity for you and I to sit down and write it out. You know what I mean? Yeah. I love it, too. So, what's a career >> advice cliche that you think should disappear? If I work hard, they will notice. Ah, >> you're good. You're very good. I like that. What's a one mind set shift that instantly changes how people may approach any pay conversation? >> A lot of people think that salary is not negotiable or that the manager hasn't doesn't have the decision power. That's not always true. >> That's Yeah, agreed. There's something I always say in my business is we cannot accept no from someone who can't say yes. [laughter] >> Amazing. >> You know, it's uh who are some of the thought leaders in the HR industry or just in business that you admire the most? >> Um I really like um Adam Grant. >> Mhm. >> Because I love how he challenges uh how we think about motivation in the workplace. And I think the work he does is absolutely essential in a time where we see a lot of people completely burnt out and and and not feeling recognized. >> Very powerful. My head of Hong Kong, Mark Dennis, a few years ago, I'd said to him, I want to put you on what I want to call the Netflix project terms of your compensation or your benefits. And he said, what do you mean? I said, uh, I don't think you should have any leave, per se. And he said, what do you mean no leave? I said, "No, no, of course you're going to get leave, >> but I don't want it to be reduced like 25 days a year. I want you to take as much leave." I set it up like that to to worry him a little bit. And he said, "I don't get it." I said, "You can take as much leave as you want. >> The reality is you're professional. You run your own P&L. My only request is is if you're gone for a couple of weeks, give me a heads up in case I need to cover you or get someone to cover you." And he said, "Are you sure?" I said, "Yeah." Now, for the first 3 years, I measured it. he took less leave. >> You know that's you're so right and and and and this is what we have noticed in you know unlimited leave plans. >> Yeah. >> Employees end up taking less leave. So we have to be very very cautious about implementing such measure because the culture of the company needs to be adapted to that. >> That's the thing >> that's the culture where you know people are overworked and they're not comfortable taking leave. Then you can guess what's going to happen. >> Yeah. He's but you know what I love with him is he's worked with me for 10 years and I really celebrate that you know like he took 3 weeks off and he went to the UK but the reality is he had to take calls I'll cover him he had to do the odd you know that's at a senior level that's what happens >> um but I I think that was a game changing it's partly you know created this longevity in our relationship and actually >> it's really friendship at the core again a lot of people struggle with that right um but with him. I'm very fortunate because we are friends. It's not always been the case, but I'm a very long-term person. So, that that that's a it was a good one. Um, what's the one underrated skill for anyone wanting to advance in HR uh or in compensation rewards? >> I think, you know, a skill that helps you become successful in HR and compensation, but in many, many other areas is knowing how to listen. how to ask questions and um and when you have that you you know you can do anything. >> So powerful guest that I met with a a friend of mine who was a banker and when I first met him he's a candidate. He immediately I could see in his eyes he was has a foregone conclusion I'm going in this direction. He assumes I'm going to sell him something and he's making faces at me and not aggressive but a bit you know intense. And I said, "What? What's wrong? >> Do you think I'm going to sell you something?" "Well, firstly, you're assuming that that means you're good enough for me to sell something, too." So, that kind of just shook him, right? So, like you have a dog bark, you give it give a little nudge. You'll kind of And I smiled. So, I was just teasing him. So, at the end of it, I asked him many questions. What do you want to do? Actually, I don't necessarily want to move as a banker. What What are you thinking? I want to set up my own thing. What are you thinking? I don't know. I want to set up my own single family office or multif family office. I said okay. So let's unpack that. And at the end of it, I didn't sell him anything. I said, I want to give you some introspective thinking, homework, if you will. This is what I want you to think about. Go away, have a chat with your wife, talk about location, talk about what it is that you want. Um, right now I'm not even going to ask you how much you earn because I know how much you earn and you're earning half of what you want to be earning, right? You don't earn a million dollars. if you're not earning a million dollars as a private banker, something's wrong. Um, so let's have a chat. So yesterday, we've become friends since. >> Mhm. >> Um, so I think he appreciated that, right? Now we're working together. Anyway, >> that's literally coaching. >> It's coaching. So he said to me yesterday, Paul, I tried your technique. What technique? You know that thing you taught me? I said, I've taught you many things. Which one? So I call it the art of selling without selling. I met my biggest client, prospective client, sorry, new client and I didn't sell him anything. And the next day he wanted to open an account. I said, "I want a commission check, mate. [laughter] Do you know what I mean?" And I just said, "Because it's cuz you have the credibility." >> Yeah. >> You're now talking about the, you know, advice and solutions and what you can provide. Um, you didn't need to sell them anything. >> And people hate when you try to push a product or a service to them. >> Yes. >> There's a big difference between selling things to your clients or serving them. >> Yes. Right. 100%. So I always say to my team and it's uh difficult for people to believe this. I always talk about kindness, integrity. My team are here. I always say look that we're going to come across some not so nice people and we just probably won't work with them, right? But I always want you to think about kindness. So I'll give an example. >> We do a search. Let's say three candidates are shortlisted. They go for 10 rounds of interviews. One will be offered the job. The other two normally just get a no and quite frankly normally from HR or the seauite there will be nothing. So I will call them up or have a coffee with them and explain why it hasn't happened and we always write them a letter and we will explain in the letter as much as we can. the HR team and Markcoms and legal won't allow them to write anything but we give them some insight because this person has dedicated a tremendous amount of time, energy, effort, spoken to their spouse >> and um just that letter because the thing is a conversation is forgotten and quite often we might be blamed as the messenger >> but I think with something that's printed we also WhatsApp or email it to them but it just goes a long way just kindness >> kindness respect >> yes >> and uh valuing people their time and their efforts. >> 100%. It is huge. I I learned that from my mom. Um, in terms of learning about yourself, what's the one thing that you've learned about yourself as an entrepreneur other than the creativity? >> Think big. >> Think big. [laughter] >> I like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Most people, if you find when you talk about targets, they'll always say, "Oh, I I'll aim for this," which is the bare minimum. Why do you think people do that? >> Out of fear. Fear of failure. >> If you set um reasonable goals, >> then you're not pushing yourself. >> My team are listening. Can you say that again? Cuz [laughter] I always say to them, believe in yourself. >> Yeah. >> You know, like uh >> uh one time a very good friend of mine, there was there was a big guy. We all having drinks and he wanted to give me an arm wrestle. who was trying to be a bit aggressive and I said, "I don't want to hurt you, son. You know, I'm physically superior to you." And he was he was 6'2 [laughter] and he laughed at me cuz I'm a small guy. And my friend, we all drunk. He said, "Paul, you know, I don't think you should do this. You're going to embarrass yourself." And and I said, "Don't you ever doubt me." But I always smile at the end of it, right? But but the thing is people, they they undermine themselves. And the thing is, if you think you can't, guess what? You're right. You can't. No, you can't because you don't have the right mindset to succeed. Yeah, it's all about mindset. You know, when I started my company, I struggled with with self-doubt. I'll be completely honest because it's a completely new thing and you know, will people trust me and how am I how is it going to go? And >> how could they not? >> Thank you. But you know, at the end of the day, you need to step into that entrepreneur identity. >> Yeah, >> it takes time. It takes effort. It takes self coaching. >> Yes. >> But it's very important to be in the right mindset. >> I love that. >> It's, you know, the approach of working on the mindset before you work on the compensation strategy. It's >> everything. >> I think it's the same in every area of life. >> It's it's it's everything. So again, I'll just use another analogy. So do you know what a scaffold board is? Those thin boards that are on scaffolding that the builders walk over, >> right, when they're building up the side of a house or what have you. So they're about this wide. So I say if you put it on the floor you can walk up and down it blindfold backwards no problem but if you put it 200 m in the sky take away and say there's no wind can you do it now and I hate heights right and the reality is that's negotiation negotiation when everything is on the table that's when you really know what you're made of that's when you see what what like we say in the UK what is the mustard what what the minerals that you have >> I love that analogy >> so What's been the toughest business decision that you've had to make so far, whether as an entrepreneur or as a coach? >> I think like I said earlier, it's um it's uh refusing opportunities, >> partnerships, you know, um creating a side business with partners. Yeah, >> I I had to be very very very intentional >> and it took me a lot of effort, a lot of thoughts. >> It's >> and it's hard. >> You see, saying no is actually a lot more difficult than people realize. >> Yeah. >> So, like a friend called me the other day with a business idea and I also struggle cuz he's a friend. And I got to the end, I said, "Look, I'll be candid with you. It's not something I'm I'm interested in. I'm not comfortable with it and I've got too many things happening, but I appreciate you bringing it to me." And he goes, "All right then." You know, and then I just said, "Look, I'll buy you a beer when I see you next." He's in Hong Kong. Um, but you can't. And and uh it's not easy. >> And before you are able to say no, you need to do some introspection. We spoke about the why, which is the driving force, right? So if you >> for me, I mean, the way I uh experienced it, it it was always about why am I doing this? Who do I want to become? what transformation do you do I want to make in people's life and this has been my compass all along and that's what helps me define whether an opportunity is right or wrong for me >> yeah it is it's it's very very important and I think um it takes time and wisdom and you learn from practice yes 100%. What's a risk that you've taken in your career that you felt uncomfortable with at the time, but it transformed your journey? Was it setting up your business or can you think of another? >> I think that's leaving my compensation career. M >> it was the biggest risk I ever took because if you think about it and the way I was raised and educated and you know I've always been ingrained to have a corporate successful corporate career which I was very happy with by the way. >> Yeah. you know, but challenging this and rewriting the rules somehow is a big big risk that I took >> and a lot of people around me wouldn't understand that decision >> and so why would you do that when you have everything >> and you have you work in a great company? I really really like I said earlier enjoyed my experience at Amazon because I had a fantastic manager. >> Yeah. I had the best, you know, team members, but I I just felt it was time. I just listened to my gut, basically. >> I love it. It's not easy. You know, my my first inadvertent career coaching client, not that she paid me, was my wife. And I think I told you on the phone, I'll share this story that um I think one of the reasons why we've been together for 22 years, married for 19 and a half years, is cuz she doesn't listen to a word I say. She [laughter] she has very selective hearing which is good cuz I talk a lot of nonsense but um years ago she was unhappy as a as a lawyer and desperately so mainly with the hours but also the type of work and the truth is it would have eased up a little bit the the nature of the work would have had evolved but I knew enough and I had enough friends in law that I realized I I don't know if this is for her so I wrote her a a fivepage love letter it was anecdotal so on page one there was a picture of a Harry Potter novel that I' drawn out and I said look you become a writer novelist this is what it would look like this is the time frame this is the kind of investment um that we'd have to make and because she saw that I put so much time into it and I had some real action points it kind of reshaped what she was thinking and the goal was after the end of that was to analyze diagnostically what do you really want and why and let's work backwards from that and that took her on a whole journey uh where She initially worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs which was a very prestigious desk to get onto and even then that didn't work out for her and she wasn't quite sure. Um and then she ended up following her an academic route. So she got a fullbrite scholarship which is amazing. She got into Yale. She had to redo her masters and her PhD. um we moved to the US >> and it all came down to that single point of discussion and as a family we we had to make that decision together obviously but for >> it's a big decision >> it's a big decision but it was it was not a difficult decision >> okay >> you know the genesis of it came about uh my father died and I went back to Ireland and I got back and I saw him and then my brother got back from London and he died that day he hung on to see us uh and then the next day we obviously had to plan the funeral and I was looking through old videapes and I saw this video tape that I'd never seen before where he was in Miami and he was filming there's only one clip that I saw of him a reflection in the window he's got you know the old camcorder he's in his shorts he was burnt I could tell all that much sunburnt and I said to mom I don't remember dad going on his own we went with him right and she said no he went once on his own I said why he wanted to for us to move there and set up his business. >> Oh, wow. >> Why? Why didn't it happen? He He He didn't do very well in business. He failed in business. Well, I told him he couldn't go unless he had a job. >> We couldn't go. I said, "Really?" And Tar was flying back. She hadn't arrived. She had to fly from Japan. And I spent the next 12 hours thinking about I never asked my father, who was a builder, did he enjoy work? I doubt he enjoyed it fully. He was outdoors all the time, right? In the cold, in the hot sun, and it was not an easy job. And I I thought I felt guilty. I never asked him, right? And then I thought, you know what? I've always wanted to live in America. And the thing is, as a business owner here in Singapore and getting a visa and this that and the other, it's not straightforward. But I decided in that moment, we were moving to America. So shortly after my dad died, we took a 4-week period off. And I've never done this. I didn't pick up the phone. I didn't look any emails. I lost a shedload of money cuz things went wrong when I was gone. And I said to my wife, uh, this was the time I said, "Why don't we go and check out all the universities that you think you could study at?" So we we planned it out. So we New York, NYU, went up to New Haven, Yale, got the train to Virginia, Charlottesville, went to Miami. >> What an adventure. >> It was four weeks and it was maybe one of the best trips of my life. Um, but my point is at that moment it was absolute clarity. And then what happened was the next year, so a year later, we're in Japan and Fullbrite emailed her saying they want to do an interview. And you know, we we only go on holiday typically once a year. We got young kids, maybe a short trip as well. We're in Japan, two week holiday, first time we're there. And I said, "Baby, we got to go back for that interview." I can do it on the phone. I can do a video. I said, "No, no, all in. Cut the holiday short. I'll go on my own. We'll come with you. You see, you're not worried about us. All in." And the thing I talk about with young people is um studying. I said it's okay when you're young and you're in your late teens, early 20s, if you're a little bit of a loner that you're working towards, you know, don't get me wrong, I went out and had fun. But when I first met my wife, she was studying um a law conversion from British law to Singaporean law. And um cuz she she's Singaporean, but she her first degree was with London School of Economics. >> And I remember thinking to myself, you know what? If she's going to study, I'm going to study. That's when I did my diploma in comp and Ben and I I worked for a great company called Black Mountain. They were a New York-based HR consultancy and I they had an education allowance which was up to 4% of your base salary which I thought wow this is amazing. So I discreetly called everyone in the global sales team. You guys use this? No one had used it. So I put an application in for two diplomas and my boss said to me, Graeme, if you're listening, this is you, mate. He said, "You're greedy." I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "You've asking for two allocations." I said, "Not two costs. It's it's still within budget, but I want to do two, but do them simultaneously. Why not? It's after hours. I'll put the time in." I said, "Mate, you have a winner. I'm going to be a multi-millionaire. I'm the only person on the global team that's asked for this, and you're contemplating saying no. There is no no. It's done. I've already paid for it, and you will reimburse me." I thought it was ridiculous. Right. [laughter] And uh by the way, I'm I'm friends with him. But it was like, you know, yeah, because [laughter] I am he was a bit of an idiot back then, but he didn't didn't understand it. He respected it because to me it didn't make sense. And the wonderful thing was my point is most people will use an excuse in that moment. I can be next to my future wife >> and we're trying to build our dreams and goals together. >> Wow, that's beautiful. Very inspiring. >> Yeah. Just simple, right? Um Okay. Personal. How would you describe yourself in one word today? >> Intentional and two words. >> Two words. >> Grounded. >> Grounded. I can see that. What emotion drives you most? Would you say curiosity, ambition, or purpose? >> I think it's a balance of ambition and purpose. >> Mhm. And being curious. Why I mentioned that one was because you've talked about it a few times. It's something that's overlooked because when you're interested in the people you're dealing with or or the company and the solution, people can sense that. They know you're enthusiastic about that and therefore you're going to find a solution, right? >> Yeah, that's very true. And if you're not curious about people, you cannot understand them and you cannot offer them a service of quality. >> Yeah. >> Because every client is different. Every situation is different. And therefore, tailoring the approach is absolutely crucial in what I do. It is. What does confidence mean to you? And what gives you confidence as a as a strong woman? >> For me, confidence is the ability to embrace uncertainty. >> Wow. I love that. >> Yeah. Cuz you cannot control how things will go, how a conversation will, you know, and end up going. >> Yeah. confident people are the people who have the courage to embrace that discomfort right so for me that's exact I mean I think that's how it shows up it's you know I have to I have to show up as confident because at the end of the day that's what I'm teaching my clients I need to role model >> yes >> and so I keep challenging myself in you know uncertain situations because that's what I teach others and I need to, you know, I need to embrace it myself. >> Yeah. And it's okay. Like we've all gone through, you know, self-doubt and insecurity at times, but it's how you overcome it. One one emotion that I feel that is overlooked um and no one really talks about it. And I I've become a black belt, a master in it is embarrassment, you know, like how do you you not you know, one of my guys, you'll laugh. I made him a bet the other night. We had a client in the house who was taking a call here and I said, "I bet you won't go into the swimming pool naked. Swim there, swim back." I didn't think he would do it. Before I turn around, he's in the pool. He's come back, put his his clothes on. The other people in the room were like averting their looks. He goes, "Give me that $200, Paul." You know, [laughter] but no, but but why I say that is is, you know, with my children, they often get embarrassed when they're younger. My 16-year-old daughter has been named the best sports girl in our whole school for the second time. And it will be on the 13th of Jan, sorry, of November, which is our last day at the school. And she said to me, "Dad, I want you to scream louder than everyone there." I said, "Really? You're going to allow me to do it? You better not tell your mom, right? Cuz she'll get embarrassed." And in I said, "You know, in the past, you used to get embarrassed." And she goes, "No, >> this is a celebration, and I want them all to see." I said, "Good." So when I will watch her playing basketball, I personally feel there have been times where I've helped been the biggest cheerleader for the girls to turn the game around because they're on the verge of giving up or becoming complacent. >> And I'll say, "Come on, girls. Don't give up. Fight back. You've got this, right?" And just that that soar in energy, it's a big >> confidence boost. >> It's you need it sometimes. Oh, yeah. >> And there's a there's one of my favorite fights ever. There was a guy called or was a guy called Nigel Ben and he was the world champion, middle super middleweight champion and he was going up against a guy um who was a challenger but was the favorite. So the champion was was not favored to win and in the first round he was not through the ropes. So when you're not through the ropes in boxing, you were given a few extra seconds and he got back in and basically was almost knocked out. He went back to his corner and his co he's he's he's suffering from concussion probably. He's been battered. His coach says to him, "Nigel, you almost won that round." And Nigel goes, "Really?" Goes, "Mate, he's wobbly. You need to get back out there and finish the job." And because of that, he's gone out there and put it on that guy. Versus the guy said, "Look, you're all right. You almost got knocked." It completely switched him. >> Mindset. >> Mindset is huge. Brainwashed him. >> Um, what's a book or a couple of books that you've read that have helped shaped your journey? I um I really like uh think fast and slow. >> Yeah, that's a great one. >> This one is a good one because it's a great reminder of how most decisions are emotional >> before they are rational and logical. >> By the way, that's one of my sayings. Rational deductive logic when making a decision. That book's out now. Like if you're in Changi Airport, there's a discount on it cuz I bought it a few, you know, maybe 3, four weeks ago. >> Okay. >> Good book. Very good book. Any others that you can give a shout out to? >> Obviously, never split the difference. >> Not read that. Okay. >> Um it's um Chris Vos about the you know the psychology of negotiation. >> Okay. >> And it's something and you realize in reading this book that almost every situation is a negotiation >> 100%. Yeah. That's how I won my wife, >> you know. So one of my books I'm going to be writing four books. One of them is how do you win her twice, >> you know. [laughter] So, you know, I've always tried to, you know, I said, unfortunately, a lot of my friends are getting divorced, have gotten divorced a lot >> and I've analyzed why, but I always think you got to what's >> your analysis? I'll share with you. So, number one, I think the biggest one that I'm observing is, you know, especially if they're children, the kids get a bit older, empty nesters. So, the relationship between the couple have changed over the years. Secondly, no one likes to talk about it, but it's menopause or early menopause. >> Yeah. >> Right. and and no one is talking about that. And men are blind. They don't understand. The woman's filter is gone, right? And I I tease my wife. I And I said to my son, cuz we get bullied by the girls in our house. I said, "Son, you got to put your boxing gloves on." He goes, "Why?" I said, "You're going to be dodging bullets, son. You know, your mom's filter's gone." Right? And um so that's that's I think a very important one. And I've said to some of my male friends, you know, they've said, "I'm thinking of getting divorced. you know, the woman's the MS isn't, you know, interacting with me. Well, have you thought it could be this? I said, think about if your kids if your kids were going through a hard time, getting bullied or something, >> you wouldn't just get rid of them, would you? >> No, you'd work through it. >> Yeah. You'd work through it, right? But but some but in couples, they kind get to that breaking point. >> Yeah. Um and the the third one is also most women work now and they have financial independence or they they've worked out they can get divorced and they can gain financial independence right so so it's no longer that and in the old days sometimes couples would stay married you know for religious reasons and for the wrong reasons >> um and and then also people give up they don't care they don't so I'll I you know I'm the romantic in my relationship with my wife she's not but I'll write to I'll say dear Mrs. Quinn, you are cordally invited to a romantic dinner with your extremely sexy, handsome husband. Please RSVP by 6 p.m. [laughter] And at 6:05, got nothing. I'll write um if you don't RSVP, someone else's wife might, you know, like just just a bit of bit of flavor. >> Yeah. A bit of spice, a bit of >> What do you think? What any other >> I mean, I think um I've been married for 13 years now. >> You had to think for a split second. >> Yeah, I need to think because this might be used against me. [laughter] I think a couple always needs to reinvent itself. >> Yeah. Oh, I like that. >> You know, and depending on which stages you are in life, in your career, in your, you know, family, you know, with kids and everything and where you are, like for me, being married in France has been different from being married in Hong Kong. M >> being married uh you know as a mom is different from you know so it's always again listening asking questions being curious understanding the other person's position where they come from why are they frustrated and you know adjusting >> you have to I mean for me actually it's very easy cuz I'm married to a wonderful woman I'm very blessed very fortunate >> I can sense that >> she unfortunately is married to me who's a crazy guy traveling [laughter] all the time doing all these crazy things. Um, but no, I do find it interesting. And if you were to go back in time when you were younger, what advice would you give to yourself about your career? >> I would tell myself that there is no right or wrong. Just listen to your instinct and >> trust them. >> Yeah. >> Beautiful. Well, look, I'm hoping we're going to collaborate in the future. I've got no doubt that we will cuz I think there's a lot of interesting ideas. Is there anything you want to put a spotlight on in terms of some of the the the personal projects that you're working on now that you want to share? >> Well, you know, most of the projects that I work on are confidential, >> of course, >> but I think in essence, um, three things about what I do. I do one-on-one for corporate corporate employees uh and for solo funders to help them you know know their worth and ask for what they are worth. Number two compensation consulting with companies and number three which is very very close to my heart is training the future generation. M >> so I work very closely with universities with um uh business schools uh helping you know uh MBA students or even undergraduate students to understand the importance of salary negotiation how this can impact them how this can impact you know um their finances how this can help close the gender pay gap as well >> and why pay transparency matters. so much and why do we need to normalize those conversations? >> I love it. Well, look, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for sharing. >> Likewise. Thank you so much for having me. >> Beautiful. Thank you. >> Thanks. [music]

‍