From Reluctant Diplomat to Ambassador: Judit Pach's Journey | #64

in Indonesia. I six-folded the trade numbers between Indonesia and Hungary. I'm Judith P. I'm living in Singapore for already over four years now. I moved here as ambassador of Hungary to Singapore. Uh I achieved one of the biggest technology exports of Hungary. >> Wow. >> Was an electronic tolling system was a $300 million >> kind of concession agreement. So just announced a month ago which is a €700 million euro investment in R&D manufacturing facility of of a company. >> Amazing. >> I actually never wanted to become a diplomat. And I saw how the embassies operate and already at a very very small age I figured that like diplomat is actually not such a nice job because um my office back then was next to the office of our current foreign minister and he was putting together the list of ambassadors and he told me that yeah he's looking for an ambassador and I thought he's joking. >> How old were you at the time? >> 30. >> Okay. Very young. >> Extremely young. I think like diplomats and especially ambassadors are the epitome of generalists. Start the day off at the semicon conference. Then I would have lunch with a potential investor. Then I might go to a cultural program in the evening I would be or like the next day I would be doing a food promotion event. The first couple of months were like really tough. And I remember I had this one day when I was like literally sitting on the floor of my office crying my head out because I was like I will never be able to do this. Right now looking back I think they were right. I needed to learn a lot. >> Yeah. >> Ambassador is the top of the diplomatic career. >> Yeah. >> There is no higher roar. I basically reached the top. I have like over 20 25 years until I retire. And I was like I cannot do this on and on again and again and no new challenge. I either do the change right now or later it will be even harder. I chose to transition to the private sector and now since two months I'm advisor to an integrated European energy company called me group. So I think for me like energy was this very very impactful sector digitalization AI and data center especially right now in Asia it's insane and with >> Judith welcome how are you >> thank you so much I'm really good thank you >> I'm so pleased that you're here you are the first well now you're an ex ambassador but that we've had on the show so I'm very honored um can you kindly give a quick introduction for those that may not know you before we turn back the pages of time about your career journey so far please. >> So I'm Judith Park living in Singapore for already over four years now. I moved here as ambassador of Hungary to Singapore. Previously I have been Hungary's ambassador to Indonesia and before that I have been constantly in the government sphere. So I have worked with our ministry of national development with our prime minister's office and also with our president and right now after 20 years of my career in in public sector I chose to transition to the private sector and now since two months I'm adviser to an integrated European energy company called ME Group. >> Wow congratulations. That's a that's a well so many accomplishments but switching and we'll go back to that in a minute but switching careers to the private sector. I'm sure there was a lot of consideration. Um now what I want to do is I'm just curious cuz I told you when we first met that my wife had always thought about becoming an ambassador or a diplomat and this was a goal of hers. When did you realize that that was your calling early on? Actually, it's very funny because I never ever thought of it as a calling. And if you would have asked me at any given stage of my time and ask me what I want to be, I would have never told you that I want to be a diplomat. really >> I actually never wanted to become a diplomat because as a kid my father was a correspondent and we lived in Germany and we were definitely in contact a lot with the local embassy there and I saw how the embassies operate and already at a very very small age I figured that like diplomat is actually not such a nice job and I don't really want to do that. Then while I was studying and I studied international relations, I did an internship at the foreign ministry where I again realized that that's definitely not something what I want to do especially because of the strict hierarchy which was there. So my experience when I was as an intern and I was at the German uh department because I spoke German. I grew up half of my life in Germany. So I made my task was that I think like one of the ministers or someone went to Germany and my task was to give them a background on like domestic political happenings in Germany. I thought I wrote a kind good quite quite good resume of it like one and a half pages. I wrote it gave it to my like I don't know instructor or like lead person who was responsible for me. He read it through he put his name on it. He sent it over to the head of department. head of department read it through and no no no no changes nothing. He put his name on it. He sent it to the deputy state secretary. He put his name on it. Who sent it to the state secretary who put his name on it? And at the end we got back like what would be the final dossier of the minister who was traveling and of course my name was nowhere there but the actual output was word by word mine. And I was like that's like not what I want to do. It's like I thought I especially at a super young age I felt this so unfair that like this is my product my output and my name is nowhere ever there and just this whole hierarchy of it. This felt for me like and I was like no I never want to be that. And then actually I was asked to become ambassador because at one point of my career I thought that I would like to really go to the international sphere in a sense that I want to step back a bit from from like big politics because I was like very strongly involved in a lot of things at the prime minister's office and I thought I need a bit of a break and I actually wanted to go as a console and press attache to Indonesia. So I picked a country. Why why Indonesia? >> Because uh back then I was working a lot in Europe and I saw a lot of um political communications. I I think for me it was that at a very young age I saw a lot into the workings of politics >> and I'm not sure I was really prepared for it and I wouldn't say it was a kind of burnout but I definitely felt that I need a bit of a distance and I figured that I I need a distance and for me like Southeast Asia was always a place which was very much calling to me because it was this melting pot of different religions, different nations, love the weather, love the jungle, I love nature. So I was like, Indonesia is just the perfect place to be wonderful, amazing. And I thought like, okay, I can just be a console. So just like stamping visas and like do doing and the ambassador decides everything and I will be just good. I lay back, I explore the beaches, I go wandering in the rainforest and I am stamping visas and that's good. And what happened >> actually because um my office back then was next to the office of our current foreign minister and back then we knew that he will become the foreign minister and he was putting together the list of ambassadors and he had this idea in mind that he wants to create this new creed of ambassadors and new creed of foreign policy where he wants to focus on trade diplomacy and he wanted to select people according to that and then when he learned that I actually want to withdraw draw and go to Indonesia. He told me that yeah, he's looking for an ambassador and I thought he's joking >> really >> because at that time I was very very young. I definitely >> How old were you at the time? You don't mind me? >> 30. >> Okay. >> Which is for an ambassador this is like extremely >> young. Did you think do you think it's because you were almost reluctant because you weren't you didn't cover it that may maybe because you were so humble and you were not chasing it. Do you think that's one of the reasons why they asked you? >> I don't think so. I think opportunities arise in your life and it's and it's your your choice if you live with it or not. >> I love that >> this this was an opportunity. It was not because I was humble. I was not I was not humble. I made I I was always open to like whatever opportunity arises I I'm open to the opportunity. >> So take me back. So they said listen this is what we want you to do. What was your immediate reaction? You thought this is not real or >> because we were friends. I was telling him like, yeah, if the if the big boss who's the prime minister, if he says yes, then yeah, sure, of course. But I didn't made it to sort. I I thought he's like kind of and it was I think also from him his part, it was like, oh, you know, I'm looking for someone for Indonesia. So, it was it was both. It was it was kind of like chance opportunity. It was a mixture of that like just in a moment most probably while he was sitting there thinking of candidates, I wouldn't have come into his mind. And for me, I've never thought of it. I would never have uh like really entertained the thought that I will I want to be an ambassador. I never had this in mind. >> Wow. >> But just that that we met there in this moment in that corridor and somehow he was in that space. I was telling him that I want to move there and it's just like you know when you have these moments in your life. >> Yeah. Those sliding door moments >> and and then and back then I didn't thought about it and I think even he didn't. Then he went back and he was like actually this is might might not be a bad thought. He suggested it. It was accepted and >> well, he had vision. You know, it takes a lot of courage as a leader to to empower someone who's young and perhaps, you know, in theory not maybe ready. So, credit to him. >> Yeah, >> for sure. Absolutely. No, one of the things that we said when we had a first chat about when I invited you to come on to the show and I I've had the privilege of meeting a few diplomats and the one thing that you shared with me which is so spot on based on my observations is diplomats ambassadors general broad depth of knowledge is on another level because you have to cover so many just share with the audience like how diverse your topics throughout the course of a day let alone over the course of the year can be. It's uh incredible and right now especially that I move to a very specific sector and to a very specific role I realize like how how when you want to describe a generalist I think like diplomats and especially ambassadors are the epitome of generalists because like in a day like let me give you like one one day of mine was like start the day off at the semicon conference giving a 20 minute speech about like Hungary's potential in the semi semiconductor industry. Then I would have lunch with a potential investor who is interested in what kind of incentives and how the Hungarian government is supporting investors, how the investment landscape in Europe is. Then I might meet with like uh companies who are like Hungarian companies wanting to enter Singapore. Then I might go to a cultural program where we would be looking like a Hungarian dance group, how to cooperate with like the Asplanate Theater. And then might be also in the evening I would be or like the next day I would be doing a food promotion event where I would be talking about Hungarian wines and how Tokayasu is produced and about how how marbled and how special the Hungarian mangalita pork is and if you feel the juiciness and so on. So, it's like literally going from like semicons to to like food products and food safety and then going back to Hungarian cultural values and like going to schools especially like preschools I did. Uh that was one of my hardest presentation to do a presentation of Hungary to like four years old, four or five years old. >> I can't imagine that's like it would almost have been comical, right? Surely >> I mean it was lovely. My staff was super nice. They prepared for me the presentation like and we did this amazing thing like what does the dog say in Singapore and what does the dog say in Hungary because in Singapore it's like woof woof in Hungary it's like whoa whoa and of course like this was in like to to sing with them. Yeah >> and then the next moment I'm going to a trade related event and I need to be again serious. So >> amazing. Well, you know, like um what just the sideways, but uh Arnold Schwarzenegger's biggest movie was arguably Kindergarten Cop. Have you seen it? >> I love it. And I mean cuz he he and Danny Devito made a lot of money and the director cuz they they took backend money. But the reason why that's brilliant because I watched it as a kid and then I watched it with all of my kids and there's so much you can take and because there's no filter on children, >> you know, they they say it stone cold, right? Which is great. Now what I want to do I want to go back. So so you were at uni you were at Straburg. >> Uh yeah >> and then you went and then you went on to business school. >> Uh I did the two for me everything came very quickly in my life. I did my two degrees basically parallel. >> Okay. Wow. >> So I studied economics and international relations and like >> you see that was already training because you're already doing two different things simultaneously. >> And at the same time I was also working at my first job at a German company. >> Wow. So, >> so how did you balance all of that? >> I don't know. Some some I'm just a person I always love when things are very >> hate chaos. >> No, not the chaos. But when when when I don't have free time, I don't really need free time. I'm like if everything is well structured and everything is put together, I love to use my time and I love challenges. I I love to be constantly active. I I don't I don't I'm not a person who would like from time to time yes I need that but even in my young age I was like even as a small kid I was like taking ballet classes I was learning the violin I was studying music at the same time I was studying like hal in school and at the same time I took part in history competitions and I love to be on stage >> love it >> so it's like and it was every day I had something if it was like not ballet class then it was violin class then it was participating for a competition and >> but I I think I think so I'm convinced because I I did a lot uh similarly and so for example a lot of people when they read books I tell people I t tend to read three books at the same time not literally but like I'll read a few chapters of one and and they tend to be on different subjects and people think that's weird but I thought think about it you read the newspaper you go from the business section to the life what's the difference and actually I find that I am able to retain information and then the thing as an ambassador as a business person you're having to connect the dots all the time because you can be talking about geopolitics, you can be talking about Indonesia and you can dovetail that into the semicom business into you know retail cuz the reality is is we're all living on the same planet. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So when did you realize so you finished uni then what happened? What was the first thing that you did? >> Actually it's like um and again that's why opportunities are so important to me because I was starting to look for a job. So during uni, I worked at a German investment company and uh I thought like yeah that would be kind of the way where I wanted to go and I just started to look at job ads and sending out my CV when I actually got approached by this opportunity that the new president of Hungary who was recently elected he is looking for or not he but his team in press uh his chief of press is looking for someone who speaks languages and who can help them with the international communication. Can you explain to the audience uh the difference between president and prime minister in Hungary? >> Hungary the situation is very similar to Indonesia. So prime minister is head of government and he is the executive power whereas president is more of a figure head role of like comprising the whole nation representing the >> like Singapore as well. >> Exactly. >> Because a lot of countries don't have this. So just to explain to the audience who may not know >> for us it's the same system like >> So you were head of press. >> I was not head of press first. I was hired just as a as a press person to deal with international media at the beginning. >> Okay. >> And back then again I was like 23. >> Okay. >> In two years time because back then the chief of press was uh he was a journalist and he was amazing but he really didn't enjoy protocol. >> So for him to travel with the president dress up in a suit and tie and lead press conferences he was like he does not like that. And uh once or twice he gave the task to me and then he was like Judith you're doing this so right like would wouldn't you want to do this all the time. I was like yeah but I'm not chief of press. He was like that's okay but you're a much better lead all the press conferences. >> Wow. >> So I ended up leading all the press conferences and I ended up always traveling to with the president to everywhere where he went. So by the age of 25 I became his head of international press relations. >> Amazing. Was that that must have been a bit surreal when especially the very beginning of that appointment. You must be thinking how in the hell did I end up in this role at such a young age. >> Oh yeah. And I and I learned a lot. I had this wonderful story like which is like very but like you know how do you dress up and come on you come out of uni and I think we all can relate like in your 20ies you definitely not dress always very properly. Yeah. And I mean this is the presidential office so like really >> did did you did you had you already gone shopping or did they say you need to get a few suits in? >> I I got some suits but but of course it was like you know in my head back then when my mom was like picking and I I picked those like more tight shorter skirts like you know what you imagine in your 20ies. And I went with my mom and I remember we went to Marks and Spencer and she she pointed out to me like a dark like navy blue suit which had like trousers and it also had a skirt which was like exactly like kind of knee knee height and I was like ah that's so boring but like okay and then one um I think it was like one visit I I was like okay I put this on and then the chief of protocol he was like really this is like where I start to learn and appreciate diplomacy. was like, "Judith, this is a really nice suit." And then I realized that actually everything which I had before was like not appropriate. >> That is hilarious. >> And I was like, "Mhm, thanks." And then I realized like, okay, I need to rethink my wardrobe. >> Well, they So, it's interesting. I thought they might have like a an informal etiquette school or they sit down and teach you. They you just learn on the job. >> Everyone think that that's the case, but no, it's not. I mean >> that should be that should be a new business. Judah, we can set this up, right? >> This is but this is only for like high level people who are really up there. So this is like yes prime ministers yes presidents. So >> at that point it's too late. I think you need to learn this at inception you know like I learned this stuff because I became a qualified wine waiter similar silver service waiter and because a lot of people don't know right they don't know the difference between port and madiraa and and you know so you're learning rapid fire on the job. Yeah, but I think this is also what you need to learn in every in each and every job. You need to be adaptable and you need to you need to have this feeling that you sense that like what you're doing is good or not. >> So, did you go back and tell mom about? >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. What did she say? She smiled and she was like and she smiled and we she said like, "Okay, we can go and shop some more." >> Yeah. >> I was like, "Okay, >> that is so funny cuz when we start out it's funny cuz Marks and Spencers for me was like, "Oh, that's that's an old person shop for me." growing up. But um the British, you know, supermodel David Gandandy, he he now is involved in a lot of their stuff or recently and he kind of changed the look and feel, but like I thought I'm going to Marks and Spencers to buy some clothes like please, you know, it's a game changer. All right. So then and then let's talk about that head of press. Was it head of press chief of press? Both >> depending on how you call it. And actually on my actual business card, it was like advisor to the president for international press relations because I was so young at that time that I didn't get the official kind of job title. >> Did did you did you struggle with agism? >> Oh yeah. At first absolutely absolutely. >> How did you tackle it? >> I actually right now looking back I think they were right. I was very very junior. >> Yeah. >> And of course like Yeah. But it's like I needed to learn a lot. >> Yeah. >> And and looking back now, I think it was good. And I remember I had this one conversation with my dad when I was like so frustrated like I'm doing the job and they literally told me to the face that I'm not getting the job title with the salary because I'm too young. >> And that was the case. Right now looking back I kind of understand it. But it it was it was tough. Yeah. from time to time. >> It must have been. And then how did you learn like in terms of because what you're dealing with there's no place for you to hide. You are in the highest office. You are front and center, you know, like were people advising you on what to read and look into like what what was your tutilage? >> I mean I picked it up as I go. >> Yeah. Which is quite that's the thing people don't realize, right? They don't realize. Now, did were you enjoying this part of the your your journey? >> Oh, yes, absolutely. >> Yeah. How could you not? >> I mean, we were traveling a lot. I I saw a lot of things and I was very eager to learn and experience. I'm a person. I'm learning a lot by experience. So, just uh and I was lucky enough that I sit in in most of these like super high level plenary sessions. I got to see how the decisions are made. I saw how much this mattered and it kind of like uh was also very insightful. Yes. But also a bit like when you realize that like how high level politicians are sometimes just that the decision is not made on actual factual basis but just on the fact that your person is right now this day he's just had less sleep. he's not so concentrated and he's not reading all the points which are on his paper and that's why we are missing some crucial >> things or like how personal uh how personal connections how little things which you would think from as a normal person that these should not influence big international decisions. >> Yeah. But how you realize how much this influences them actually and how these little things of how well prepared a politician is, how how comfortable was his sleep, how well he is fed, and how well he's rested, how that influences how he's actually doing or she's actually doing negotiations. I'm so glad you we'll come back to your fitness routine which I'm intrigued by. But these are the things that people aren't aware of because I always say to you know my career coaching clients especially as they get older and as we get older we have less energy but you know sometimes it's important to check in like I I had a conference in Miami. I got there two days early because it was a very important conference. I wanted to go there and learn. Um, and it takes a little bit time for you to adjust, but you know, if you've got a unit and a team around you, so you're supporting the president, you want to make sure that the food's on, it's okay, you know, you're arriving at a reasonable hour, so on and so forth. This is often overlooked, right? >> Yeah. And this is often what I think like also public figures are often very much criticized about. But if you think of it and I mean we were talking about how an ambassador is a generalist. Think of it like the higher you go in a political ranking. >> Yeah. >> The more topics they need to be a bit aware about and the more prepared they need to be because they are actually in the decision making chair. >> Yeah. >> And I mean just imagine how your day feels like when you didn't have enough sleep or when the day before you had a fight with your wife or like whatever you are like unrested or you just feel off. how well focused you are on the job and there is a lot of critique on like who who is doing what, how they dress, how much money they spend and so on. But at the same time when you look at such a schedule what what they accomplish it's like really it's very much in the in the behind the scenes and for me at the beginning of my career this this was something which I realized like oh okay so this all influences a decision and that these are also just people like you and me >> of course >> and they also have feelings they also have a bad day it's like and sometimes the outcome depends on their personal choices. Yeah, >> not on actually like what is super important and you cannot expect a human being to constantly be 100% or 150%. You know if you reverse engineer that it's so interesting you say that because a lot of people say to me you know how do you deal with very very senior people and I've been fortunate I've been I've been working with seuite from the age of 27 and what I realized very early on is we're all human beings and I remember when I met my wife's dad for the first time he's a very senior business guy and um I think everyone was a little bit afraid of him even though he was very jovial and I just spoke to him as one man to another man because the reality He he was my age at one point and it's just how engaging you are and when you see that person it's like most children they don't see their parents as as human beings maybe until after they passed away or much later on but when you when you recognize that and you see so I always say one fisherman sees another fisherman you can see something and but and if they see it looking back at you even though you're younger there there's there's a human connection one of the things I was very curious to ask you about was memory how do you go about memorizing ing things when you have so many broad topics. Is it something that you learn, you know, to fine-tune? Did you practice it? >> I don't I'm very bad with numbers >> really. But no, take away number because numbers are a weird an arbitrary thing. But but in terms of just because you're remembering so many different things. How do you stay on top of that? >> But I mean I don't it's like you don't remember I would not be able to tell you any like any of the specific topics. It's like for me personally, I have a very short-term memory and I studied business and international relations because I was sure that like law was like out of the question. It's like no way I can memorize. I was never good in memorizing. Okay. >> I was very happy to participate in competition of like poem recital and so on. But there I could like kind of live through it. I need to like contextualize it like really bring it in and that's when I can make a personal connections most of my insights and things which I really keep to myself is from conversation and from human interaction because then I remember I remember the setting that I met with Paul we had this amazing lovely colored table next to us and we had the lights and so on and this whole setup burns into my mind together with what we've talked about but if you just give me a paper >> it's not going to resonate >> for me it's that's not how my brain functions. >> It's that's so powerful because I think a lot of people don't understand that, right? And um I often I often explain to people because the thing is we all remember like how do we remember a telephone number or a door street number? Well, you you put you know 44 with a brown door. Well, you know the prettiest girl in school lives behind that door. Okay, you're going to remember the door, right? And you visualize it. Um talk a little bit about optics because in your job in the world of government and politics optics is everything right you know how are things perceived may be very different from what's happening in real terms but I'm just curious what's your take on optics and how to assess it and manage it >> I think optics is something for me every time when and I do a lot of mentoring coaching and also when I'm thinking about myself I think for me one of the biggest words is authenticity >> so I I think it's always in everything what you wear, how you look, how you behave, authenticity is number one because it's just no matter what you are putting on, how you look, but if this is your authentic self and if you feel confident in it, then then it will come through. >> Yeah. >> And it's like there is no one-on-one rule that like yeah, all the women should wear like I don't know what or like red is a power color or whatever. Maybe you might be good and you might just completely not for >> it's just like first of all like figure out like who you are and then I think what for me is a very powerful exercise like see yourself from the outside >> and see like if you would be a person how do you want to perceive a young blonde this year kind of at at that age an ambassador. >> Yeah. what would be what you would be looking for and like what would resonate from you if you look for at yourself from the outside. >> Yes. >> And then just go from from there. >> That's very powerful cuz people I think they strug we all struggle at times to be objective. And I always say take a backwards step. Look at what's in front of you. Take a breather, you know, cuz that's that's important to gain that perspective, right? >> And you cannot please everyone. You need to be clear on that that you cannot please everyone. I mean, yeah, some people will like that I'm wearing bold colors and that I'm I'm like kind of underlining that that I'm young because for me that was one of my my strategics back then. Yeah. >> Because once I realized I started in Indonesia as ambassador and I started I realized I would never fit in. No matter how hard I try, no matter how dark a trouser navy suit I'm putting on, I would >> be you. It's it's still I mean people would still recognize because I'm not a 60 plus male and it's like and I don't have the qualities. I'm I'm not I'm not having the personality. So then I like kind of reversed it and I said like okay then underline what I'm different in. And then I started to like literally wearing like very bold colors, yellow high heels, red jacket, purple trousers and so on. And then I could make sure that in the room like especially in Indonesia for them to distinguish from each other European ambassadors was like quite hard. They were not sure if you're the Czech or German ambassador but she's definitely the Hungarian. >> I love it. >> And you owned it. You owned it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that was for me like that that was a game changer. And once I realized that this is like super powerful. >> Yeah. >> And I really started using it that that was a game changer. It's it's funny because I always think a lot of people will say like some of my stuff that are a little bit younger they'll say I'm younger and I said you know let's reframe it because when I went into business I was 27 28 and I was there were two main guys that specialize in what I did and I was thinking for two weeks I was thinking how can I compete with these guys they've done this for a lot longer than me and I thought you know what is ridiculous you can't do you're not going to get 20 years experience you're better looking you're sexier you're more dynamic you're more fun you you you know you're relaxed. So then I thought I started then I thought, you know what, that should be it, right? And you've got to go with yourself. And then I lost my hair. Um, started losing my hair. When I just got married, not cuz I got married. Um, I promise. Now, what happened was my son when my son was first born, he wasn't well. So he was in hospital for the first 3 months of his life. And it was very scary. And uh, I I started to lose my hair and very quickly. And I thought, you know, I never look that good with hair. I'll just lean into it. And of course I get a few comments here or there um but now it's part of my identity you know so what in theory was a weakness or something that was negative I just owned it and I think that there's a lot to be said for that. >> Yeah. >> So then you became chief of staff now tell because I feel chief of staff means different things in the context of who you're chief of staff for what type of organization but what did it mean for you? So basically after I finished the I was working with one president when his term finished I stayed on I was asked to stay on with the next president but it was a very different leadership style and I thought like okay this was it public sector now I'm going back to the private actually that was my intention again I applied to several jobs in the private sector there was one which came through which I really wanted to take but there it was like still I need to wait like couple of months I wasn't I'm not a person who is very patient or I was definite much more patient now back then I was like I cannot wait couple of months. I really want to change now. >> Yeah. By the way, your energy resonates that you know like what's next? What's next? >> And then actually then the Ministry of National Development approached me that they need someone to help them with communicating the new EU development plan towards Hungary and how to package that. And they were ready to take me on immediately with the right salary in the right position. I was like, "Okay, yeah. I mean, I wanted to go back to private, but I mean, this is it. that's the opportunity. So I'm sticking with government and I'm actually entering the government which is a political position. So I go to the ministry of national development. I started to work first on communication. Then I became deputy chief of staff and then I became like yeah chief of cabinet or head of secretariat. It's basically it's the person who is uh who is below the minister of state. I was the one who was handling three deputy secretaries and and their whole staff below us handling uh was a it was a woman. She was like was really good for me to have uh women and to see her in a leadership position. >> Wonderful. You must have learned so much. >> Yeah. But it was also very hectic because I was like dependent on her schedule. I was preparing for her basically everything and she was a hard worker. So for her, the day was from 9 to 10:00 p.m. This meant that for me, my day was from 7 to 11:30. >> I bet. I mean, look, the reality is most women in business have to work harder and longer to be more successful, right? You have to be better than better to to best of the best. Um, when you were in that role, did you view yourself almost like at some point as a consiliary? >> Kind of. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I knew everything. I was I was basically her right hand. >> Yeah. >> And this is not a job which I think anyone can do for a long time because you are so much dependent on the other person and and you are basically you know everything. You prepare all the decision you execute all the decision. >> Yeah. What were your KPIs like when you were thinking of even if they weren't officially set for you in your mind as chief of staff? What are you really driven to do >> at the beginning? I was like the beginning the first couple of months were like really tough and I remember I had this one day when I was like literally sitting on the floor of my office crying my head out because I was like I will never be able to do this >> really. Yeah. >> Was it just daunting overwhelming? It was super hard because I mean we had uh the whole the whole staff which we which I needed to manage was like over 167 people, three deputy secretaries and for me it was that deputy secretaries are already very very powerful but I was supporting my minister of state and I needed to make sure that she has the time. So I tried to loop in these persons for like certain periods and there was like one of them came at me like what the hell do I think I am that I only put her in for like 20 minutes and she needs one hour with the minister and she told me that she needs one hour this is a topic and what do I dare like how do I how did you receive that cuz that's hard when you're getting pounded like did you deal with it well or did you like >> back then I was like telling her it's okay she went out of my office and I broke down I was like okay what what the hell do here. >> I appreciate your honesty. That's a my my mom told me a long time ago. Um she said as a woman, she was give me advice to to share with my wife. She said at best you can cry once right in front of your boss because you know especially if your boss is a man, they're not going to feel very sympathetic. >> Yeah. >> Um but it's but it's funny because I think typically the difference between a lot of men and women, not all, is that most men when they receive that they become aggressive. >> Right. And I always say to my wife, the fundamental difference between a lot of men and women is men will go and shout and beat their chest and women will get emotional and cry. And I I think both are fully understandable and relatable just that's how we receive information. So but then did you come back upstairs and say right this is what's going on or >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean after that it was good and and then at the end I mean she needed to accept my authority and I was not backing up backing. I told like okay this is how I made the side job. I understand that you don't like it, but this is the schedule. >> And it's just that when I let my feelings like on the surface, I was always very very confident. Yeah. >> It's just that in the background, I always had people and friends with whom I could share my insecurities and still up until now. Wonderful. >> Because there are always and there will always be moments when you feel like super insecure. >> Yeah. >> And but then it's like you cannot really express it because as you said, I never cried in front of people. I was never really this is not what you can really allow yourself but you need to have a safe space where you just close the door you have a good cry or you have a good shout or you just let your anger out or you just have your support group my husband my friends with whom I can tell them like you know I'm just I'm just feeling that I will not be able to do this. >> It's a privilege to have such great friends like that. >> Yeah. I think one of the questions I had for you was as your careers burgeoning careers just grown from strength to strength who do you seek counsel from because the reality is most of your friends may have not been doing what you're doing and certainly not as advanced. So who did you who did you go and speak to? Did you speak to your parents for counsel or >> My husband is definitely one of the persons who know me fully and and he knows me in all the facets and like uh he he is one person who knows me in in a very very complex way. The other persons are definitely my parents. My dad has been always a great role model for me in terms of career and it's still up until now I'm like very much daddy's girl calling him with with all the issues. >> I love I love to hear that >> and and he's very much there for me. My mom very much in in female roles and and she is also a great support for me but career-wise it's it's definitely my dad who I'm still turning to when it when it comes to advice. You know, I find one of the reasons why I was asking cuz I've got three kids, 18, 16, and 10. And my 16-year-old daughter of my three kids, she and I are the most similar. And um I wrote to her the other day and I just said, "Baby, I believe in you 100%. I think you can run through walls. That's how tough you are." And I said, "I just want you to know I would run through a million walls for you. You're going to be very successful. Enjoy this moment, but keep pushing forward. Don't ever give up. I'm very proud of you." And you know like I I think it's very important. I tell my kids every day I love I love them. You know the 10year-old like it just you know she does it but I think it's so important because we need that right we need that infrastructure and support. Um okay so now let's fast forward. You're an ambassador on day one. Do they give you a playbook? What? You know I'm guessing not. Unpack that journey for us because I'm fascinated. Oh my god, it was uh it was tough at the beginning because I think like all the roles which you stop in and which are new are tough because you need to figure out how it is. For me, Indonesia was and I think looking back from each and every position you learn and right now if I would go back I would do a lot of things differently. >> Give me give me give me three things you do differently. Like first of all the power dynamics which which took me quite a long time and right now I figured it out but back then it was like definitely like how I how I deal with my staff, how I deal with people who are like uh not really my own selected people, how to work with them, how to put them in there, how to be more confident in my leadership position back then when I started this was a question for me. I was I think I was really good in picking up the cultural part. This was for me always very very important and also in Indonesia. I was very lucky that I had a very good colleague who was uh she was living in Indonesia previously for 10 years and she gave me really good advice and I was never shy to take advice. I just needed to I think back then looking back now I would distinguish from whom I'm taking advice and from whom not >> and to really think about it because I was always very authentic in like yes I'm insecure. I'm doing this for the first time. Give me advice. But I think I should have been more selective on like who I'm actually taking advice from. >> But how I mean let's just unpack that because hindsight's 2020. So if you were going back to your younger self, how would you make that observation or delineation? Is it like are you referring to people that perhaps didn't have your best interest in heart at heart? >> So how how can you how can someone make that assessment? It's not easy, right? >> It's with time. Because this is something which again looking back now I would do it differently but I wouldn't I wouldn't change it >> because this was the experience what taught me all the things how I am today. >> Yeah. >> And politics is very much about power play >> big time. You know you have to I would only imagine you got to understand the players on and off the board. You know what I mean? You got to look over your shoulder and it's crazy. All right. So what what other couple of takeaways would you have given yourself? >> I think all in all I did great honestly. >> Of course amazing. >> I I wouldn't change a lot of things. For me it was always important when I went in Indonesia especially but then also like what I did also in Singapore for me was to understand the culture. >> So what I because I'm not a memorizing person and I'm not one for the facts. Of course I read all the country reports. I read the news articles. But for example, what I did before I came to Indonesia, I I read Odidia's books, the auntie mysteries. >> Yeah. >> And I loved them. I learned all the English words like kiasu and kaluak and like how it is. And it was just like such a fun way. >> Yeah. >> To immerse into like how Singaporeans think, how how the general life is. And I did the same in Indonesia as well that I read a lot about their legends and so on. and mythology. And it took me some time until I figured there are some novels which are written in English because in Indonesia there are not so many Indonesian writers who actually translate into English. But there was like one amazing publisher Lar who published Indonesian authors and novels in in English. And I started reading all of them and a lot of things became much more clearer to me. >> So interesting. >> How the people think. >> Yeah. >> Because facts facts are always there. fact you can always check you can always have your paper you can check that but what you never know is like what's the actual mindset >> of the people who you are talking to >> and if you hack that and again coming back to personal connections that's where I believe you can be powerful >> yes I completely agree >> numbers you have but like how the other person functions what will make an impression how you approach them what is for them a deal >> what is for them a compromise >> yes >> because It's very very different individually as well, but especially culturally. >> Yeah. >> And to get a better understanding of like where they are coming from and where I'm coming from and where can be the middle ground. That was for me like a very very powerful u kind of learning which which Indonesia taught me. >> You know, it's it's funny because so I moved to Singapore in 2001. I was 22 and I always say this and I legitimately mean this. It took me about seven years to learn that in Singapore, yes, yes, yes is actually no. And it's not that people have been rude. In fact, they're trying not to be rude, but they they are not comfortable saying no. And I always say in Hong Kong, they'll kick you out of the office and you'll know you before you've even finished your meal, you the plates's taken cuz they want to put someone else. And each country is very nuanced and very different. So what I've learned is in certain depends who you're dealing with is how do you bring nose forward? How do you have clarity? So like, you know, if I deal with someone from China, if you ask them a question about their personal life, sometimes that won't go down so well. So maybe if you explain why, you know, I'm married with kids, you know, it's got to be tough if you're thinking about relocating with the children. So you explain in essence what the question is and they kind of will get it, you know, but is is the nuance is very different and you probably had to deal with it across so many different levels, right? >> Talk about your role in Singapore. What were you doing? So for me because as I mentioned I was asked to become an ambassador because for us trade diplomacy became very very strong and for that we needed this kind of new creed of ambassadors and that's how I viewed myself because I was definitely I was not an experienced career diplomat. I was always lacking the actual knowledge what some of my colleagues have that with their international experience. But what I was for is very strongly in business diplomacy. And in Indonesia, I six-folded the trade numbers between Indonesia and Hungary. And uh I achieved one of the biggest technology exports of Hungary. >> Wow. >> Was an electronic tolling system which uh Hungary will deploy in Indonesia. It was a $300 million >> kind of concession agreement. So that was my biggest achievement. And after that I came to Singapore because I was so strong in business diplomacy. And for me like naturally when I was talking with our minister and with the PM like what should be next I told him that I really like Southeast Asia and for me this business diplomacy is is very strong and very much to my liking. >> Yeah. >> And uh then definitely Singapore is the is the logical next step. >> Yeah. And here in four years I I think I achieved a lot in kind of strengthening also business relations bringing more Hungarian companies to Singapore. But at the end which was a big achievement which I'm very proud of is that we achieved a big Singaporean investment to Hungary which we just announced a month ago which is a 700 million euro >> investment in R&D manufacturing facility of of a company. >> Amazing. So let's just I just want to understand some of the lessons that you've learned. So when you're speaking to all these very influential people is the key to finding out how to close a deal really to understand what they're looking for, what are their needs, what are the requirements, what are the gaps? That's is that where it all starts? >> Yeah, kind of. And it's very much it's it's the holistic view. Nothing ever in my opinion is just one way. >> Yeah. >> You always need to see the whole person. You always need to give them a holistic experience whenever they're coming to Hungary to see the sites. Of course, the sites and the numbers need to be correct, but at the same time, you need to make them feel comfortable. >> Yeah. >> You need to show that their wives can have also a lovely time, that we have wonderful spas, we have great shopping facilities and so on. And you need to to look at the whole package because first of all, yes, the entry point is your numbers, your incentives and your message should be right and should be a good fit. But then even if it's a good fit, you need to see like from there how you go into convincing. >> Yeah. >> Because so many things are a good fit and we have it in so many places of your life like yeah you want a water bottle. There are several amazing water bottles on the market which fits your kind of but how do you choose which one? >> Yeah. Maybe it's just the color which you like or it's just the design and when you consider this all in all and especially on such big projects to have this and I think that's why women in diplomacy are so important because I think in my experience women have more of this fine feeling for the little things like you know like yeah the main thing is okay but like there might be a little something which we might add which might be positive or here on that side or that person in the board does not seem so convinced. Let's look what he's liking. Let's give him this present or like let's invite him for this and that >> and like these little tiny >> those touches though, you know, like um I can be diplomatic and I often choose not to be. >> No, but the other night, so I'm I'm an introvert and because of my day job, I don't have a lot of, you know, battery reserves left for socializing in the evening. And a couple of weeks ago, my wife had a bunch of her very senior colleagues, top professors from around the world, and I had a really bad day. And I got home about 9:00. I said, "Hi guys, how are you?" And then my wife said, "Will you join us?" And I said, "No, I've had a really day." And if it's all right, I'll leave you guys so I'm going to go upstairs and have a glass of wine. And you know, like two weeks later, she said, "I can't believe you said that." Right? And I said, "I wanted you to know I'm 48." I am being very honest with everyone from now on cuz I think everyone there will get that. half the people probably didn't even want to be there. That's just, you know, life. But, so I've got a good friend, Suresh, and he invited me to his Diwali party. And I said to him, I'm just letting you know ahead of time. I really, um, don't like socializing, so thank you, but I won't come. Um, I'm very happy to have a onetoone with you or a family dinner. And he was quite taken aback. And I said, just, you know, moving forward, you know, thanks. You can always invite me, but I'm very I'm not going to come. That's it. And then I told my wife and she said, "I wish I could say things like that, but you know, but it's it's okay because we all work in I love to spend one-on-one time with people like this." Um, but you had to become a master of dealing with intimate settings and big settings. So, I was going to say, how did you navigate that because that is a skill >> you need to learn that it's uh and it's you get the hang of it the same like with public speaking. >> Yeah. Like I remember when I first started, we had like a small national day gathering which was like right now thinking back of it, it was ridiculous. It was like only 20 people, 20 members of the Hungarian community at the residence. And I was rehearsing my speech which was like not even a speech. It was like a couple of minutes introduction like I'm very happy that you're all here and so on. I was rehearsing that for like I don't know two three days. right now wherever you put me in a setting and you say Judah talk about a topic I can talk about a topic for like 15 minutes I don't really need preparation but this was like 10 years ago >> early on right yeah >> so yeah and it's the same with social settings like first of all at my first receptions I was just like super awkward standing there with my glass of wine looking looking anxiously like who the heck can I talk to who do I know oh you I know it's like oh how are you and then I was like sticking to people for the and it's like because you need to get the hang of it you need to be more relaxed in it and that's not something which will go on the first run >> and I had so many mentees who were asking me that that how do you be how do you behave naturally in a reception or a social setting >> I was like you don't it's not it will come you need to go at the first you need to really and in in all especially when you start as a new ambassador at a place you need to make a decision that you go to each and every event and you are out there because people need to see you your face and you need to meet people that more people you know because it's like you need to kind of push yourself to be comfortable with but not being comfortable. >> Yeah, I love that. >> And you need to push your boundaries like you understand it's I don't like this that's why you need to do it. >> That's that's what people don't get. Actually this is a funny story. So, you know, when I met you, that was the first networking event or if you can call it that, any event I've been to, I reckon it's six or seven years. I don't do those things cuz it's not something but Steve invited me and so you know cuz I had invited him to be part of my ESG and sustainability series which you know you're part of but um and then I said to Nisha, I said I'm just going to go and do my thing and I didn't really I'm old now. I don't care. And one of the things I often say to people is that embarrassment is an emotion that most people don't really want to think about. But I think when you get over yourself and you know no one really cares tomorrow they'll forget if you mess up or what just go out shake hands and have fun. That's that's that's the biggest thing. Now I want to unpack um your journey into going to the private sector. So when did you I know you said you initially thought about this years ago but for this round when did you make that decision and how did it look like or what did it look like >> because you see I am a person who has a lot of energy and who wants to do a lot and for me like I really enjoyed and it was a privilege to be an ambassador and to work for my country and for me this was like really something which was very close to my heart and I never did it because of the rank. I never did it because of the money. I never never did it just for the title. It was for me something where I felt that I could create impact. This is something which I can do from my inner conviction which which really is something which drives me. >> But at the same time I felt that like >> ambassador is the top of the diplomatic career. >> Yeah. >> There is no higher role. Higher up would be a political role. >> Yes. >> And I don't really want to go into politics. That's not that's not my field and also because even in diplomacy I felt very comfortable in trade diplomacy and business diplomacy. >> I don't really want to go to diplomacy within the EU or within multinational organization or somewhere that that was just and I know this is an amazing field but I just felt this is not something for me and in terms of business diplomacy and ambassador I basically reached the top. Yeah, you reach the peak the summit >> and from here you can still have some amazing postings and yes you could have and I had the prospect for that. Yeah, >> but I felt that like this is just if I look at me and right now we talk so much about longevity and your life purpose and so on and I was like I have like over 20 25 years until I retire even if I will retire knowing me I'm not sure I will stop ever like doing things and I was like I cannot do this on and on again and again and no new challenge and new no no new kind of like thing to overcome and and I thought like I either do the change right now >> or later it will be even harder. >> Yeah. >> And looking back I really feel that because even right now it's tough. >> Yeah. >> It's tough to be back there after having a super successful career in public service for 20 years. And right now I'm feeling like I'm back at 22 when I started my first job. And I'm like oh my gosh I'm so super insecure. Like I need to learn so much about the industry, about the company, about the corporate world. I need to understand again completely new the communications the internal politics the so it's it's a lot and I'm very happy that I I made this change >> me too I think >> because I think later it would have been harder >> yeah it's um well you we all all can become pigeonholed right but I've always felt that if you have a black belt in one discipline to get a black belt in another one actually isn't too difficult because you take that excellence that took you there Right. So, you've got all the ingredients, you've already got the business knowledge, you just need to apply it. Right. >> It it sounds very easy like that. Yeah. And that's that's what I think as well. I'm not sure I'm in that space right now. >> Listen, it's not easy. But what I I believe though, you know, cuz I'm someone that have I've tried many different things and you know, one of the sayings, you know, that that you kind of made me think of, if not now, then when. So, it's something that we've all got to think about. Um, but excellence, it it's winning is a habit, right? And the truth is is there is no winning without failure. So, you embrace that's just part of the course, but it's it's inevitable. You're going to be successful in it. You just got to lean into it and do it. We're all different though, right? some people. I always think I can do it. I'm going to do it. No problem. I'll just roll into it. It will make you laugh. So, when I started this podcast journey, I I had actually planned it um about 6 months beforehand, but I hadn't told anyone. And I spoke to Isaac, my head of research. And I said, "Look, this is what the plan is. I want to do it. I've done some research. I want you to watch these videos." And um over the weekend, we're going to go and buy some equipment. And he said, "When do you want to go live?" And I said, "Two two weeks minimum, 3 weeks max. Have you got your first guess?" I said, "No, don't worry about that, but I've got a long list." So, so he goes, "We're just going to do it." I said, "Yeah, we're going to go. We're going to roll." And then you just when you're in it, you just pick it up. You roll with it. Um, now, one of the things I'm really curious to talk about, we were talking off camera, is your um health >> routine, your fitness journey, both physically and mentally, because it's it's a passion project of mine. But tell everyone what you do and, you know, how did this all come about? Because you do a lot. So as a kid I was constantly exercising and and I was already growing up with sports and my parents made it very important for us that like healthy eating, healthy habits and movements and going into the forests and so on. So I was growing up with that mindset and I think this is important and also later for me like movement was always part of my life. I always needed to exercise. I needed to do like either aerobics or dancing or whatever. And then I think like over 20 years ago or like even more kind of yoga came into my life >> and I really enjoy that because I realized that it's much more internally focusing on my body very much aligned and and so on. And since then I'm practicing yoga at least like four, five, sometimes six times a week. >> Wow. I need that as a reset because when I'm doing yoga and I need a sport where my mind is focused internally. Yes, I love those people who run or swim but for me it's like I need I need something which focuses my mind internally and where my mind cannot run wild. I'm I'm overthinking a lot of things. Yes. >> So I need my mind to quiet down. So for me like yoga and also I have a very strong spiritual practice. Okay. which is which is for me also very powerful in terms of resetting. This has always been part of my life >> and then recently what we talked about with all the new technologies which are emerging. I'm a very curious person about new things which emerge and I'm always very interested in in like new technological achievements, super interested in AI and and how these things involve in our life. >> Yes. And uh and I'm a big fan of like how technological advancements like hyperbaric oxygen chamber cryo sessions which are initially rooted in ancient knowledge >> absolutely >> but upgraded with technology and used wisely how they can help you in your recovery journey. So I I do >> do you do you think a cold plunge or cryo is more effective? They're very different right? I think it's for each and every person different and I'm I'm vegan for over 15 years. I'm very conscious of my choices, but I also believe that what works for me might not work for you. >> Is is your husband vegan? Just out of curious. >> He's vegetarian. Okay. He's >> because I'm always curious if couples are on a different meal plan. It makes it a little bit more difficult. >> He was vegan for a couple of years, but for him it just didn't work out. He loves his cheese. Yeah. >> And he's feeling much better with being vegetarian. And honestly, I mean, it's like >> it's each and everyone's own choice. He tried vegan. He was not really He loves his cheese. He's eating cheese. So, it's like it's okay. >> See, I I could be a vegetarian as long as I'm allowed to drink the adult grape juice, which is >> Oh, that's wine. >> That's vegan. I mean, that's vegan. I'm drinking wine. >> And then, so let's break it down. So, you're doing cryo. >> Yeah. >> The hyperbaric chamber. So, a lot of people won't know what that is. Explain it. And and you're doing that for a half an hour session because it takes time. >> Yeah, it takes time but it's worth it. So it's like uh but I'm not I'm not an official for that to tell you. So excuse me if the facts are not right but it's like basically oxygen enriched air and you sit in a hyperbaric chamber where they increase the pressure on you to 1.35 bar which is actually the same pressure which as an embryo you experience in your mother's womb. Yes. So, it's already and because of the increased pressure, your intake of oxygen is higher. So, basically, you're reoxygenating your body and it helps a lot with like cell recovery and >> this whole regeneration. You know, a lot of a lot of I'm an Xboxer, so a lot of um boxers that have suffered from brain damage, they're trying to, you know, recover. The hyperre chamber is a very important one. It's not it's an expensive piece of equipment. So, we're fortunate in Singapore there are now clubs that do it because it's it's so new. >> Yeah. you know, and the cold plunge. I mean, I hate cold plunge. I don't even I mean, people do it. It's like, come on. Really? I don't know. I'm I'm I'm not that I'm skeptical about these things, but give me a steam room or a sauna any day. Which one do you prefer? They're very different. >> I think for me and and here again, it depends on like what my mood is. What as a woman, I think our bodies function differently. It depends on our cycle as well. Which day, what do you what is good for you? And internally you always need to listen to your body because on some days I feel like I don't want it but then I feel that I need it and then I go into it and first it's horrible but then afterwards I'm like yes I really needed that and on some days I'm just like I know that right now it's not a good time for it and then I'm just like more I'm like cozying up. The same way like for me also my yoga practice is not always the same. Yeah. >> Sometimes I go to like more slower classes more yin more. got to listen to your mind and your body. >> And on other days, I'm going for a super intensive hot viasa because I love to sweat it out. I love to work out. So also for me with these recovery techniques and with cold plunge, I'm not someone who says like you need to do a cold plunge every day. >> Yeah, >> I do a cold plunge like once or twice a month. I do infrared sauna because I really like and I feel the benefits of red light therapy. I do from time to time floating in a deprivation tank. For me, everything which draws me away because I'm such an out of there. >> It gives you a time to be introspective to think, right? To go into yourself. >> Exactly. So, I like that. But I also do like Epsom salt, magnesium baths. Yeah. >> I love it. You're all in on this. I love it. Well, the the other thing is it becomes fun. You try new That's the thing with me in sports. I've always tried doing different things and it keeps it fresh. It keeps, you know, and then the the what's very humbling is if you try something that's new, you're a novice at it. And then you know it keep but I think that's the fun part. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. Although I'm a very I'm half German so I'm like super structured. Yes. >> If I once read about something I go I try it. If I like it I do it a schedule. So for me like oxygen I do it three times a day. Three times a week. Yeah. >> Cryo the same. I have my everything for me is like it's structured and needs to fit into my life. If it doesn't then then I don't. It's >> no but tell the guys. So you will get up in the morning. So if you're having using the hyperbaric chamber, you'll do it before work because it gets you gets you cranked up. It gets you ready. And as you said also if you're doing the cryo, it's it's an espresso. When you said that, I thought, okay, I got to try it. I've never done it before. Right. So >> it's much easier than a cold plant. >> Yeah. It's like in and out, right? >> Yeah. >> Fast. Now talk to me about your new role. So talk about sustainability, energy, and why this sector because you and I are both fascinated with it and geopolitics. So how did you land on this particular area? >> So for me because uh I really loved it in my previous job as ambassador I was I was having an impact. So I really definitely wanted and I did it with my heart. So for me switching to the private sector, I needed a company and a sector where the impact is great and I needed a company which with whose values I can really align which is not just profit making but yes you need to be profitable and you need to be pragmatic but at the same time that there is a very clear mission and vision behind it on which I can get on board and like energy sector is something which is like nowadays it's something which is all over >> everywhere. are super important, very very impactful. Absolutely. A lot of things when you think of energy transition, sustainability, but also just in fact like how much our energy demand is increasing, especially right now in Asia, it's insane. And with digitalization, AI and data centers, >> but people but people don't think of that when when you say to someone um you know how AI is changing the landscape is people don't understand what data centers are and you know just exactly how much resource it's draining on the on you know on the earth on the environment. >> Yeah. And like waste for example, everyone is aware that like yeah you you separate you recycle plastic but no one is aware that just with your cloud usage how much waste you are actually. So I think for me like energy was this very very impactful sector and this company especially for me I really very much align with their mission which is that they are targeting uh a very pragmatic view. So they started in energy trading. They do gas and LG trading because they believe that for the time being gas is still a transition fuel which we need but at the same time they are very heavily investing in renewables. Wow. >> And in flexibility assets how you integrate renewables in into the grid. >> Yeah. >> And they are very much track uh >> kind of like thinking of the energy trillemma which is there which is one you need to do the cararbonization. >> Yeah. Second, you need to have energy security right now in geopolitical situation. But third, you definitely need to have energy affordable. >> Yeah. >> Because that's necessary and how you tackle these things which are sometimes even against each other. Yeah. >> And they very crucially think on that on how you do that and they have this long-term vision on that and also the mindset that they very much put emphasis on talent. >> Yes. and how the company intensely grow with this. That was for me something I was like, okay, I want to be part of that. >> Sounds sounds so exciting. And they're headquartered out of Switzerland, right? >> Yes. >> You know, I think it because when you're balancing all three, like in Singapore, they're saying in 10 years we're all going to be in electric cars. Um, but I think, you know, it's funny. I was talking about property and someone said to me, "Look, Miami is the place, Florida's the place." And I said, "It sounds very exciting, but the weather conditions there are so scary with, you know, tornadoes and hurricanes and that can change everything with erosion, you know, like beachfront properties are not what they were and it's it does make you makes you reconsider everything. Do you know what I mean? It's um so talk a little bit I know you're so new in it, but talk a little bit about your role if you can and some of the projects you'll be working on in the future that are nonsensitive. What kind of stuff will you be doing?" I mean currently I'm just with the company like one and a half months. So it's like very hard to talk like what are the projects? So I'm basically their advisor and and currently I'm helping them to like kind of map out Southeast Asia maybe a bit better. And it's also a bit like finding my place because like yeah I know my passion. Yeah. And I think it's a good place to start. Yeah. And I think it's like you know in in a first position when you get to know a person and you still don't you you're getting the feel like where can we engage with each other or like what would be where we are going to. So I think we are still and and we I mean the company and I we are still in this phase of like actually figuring out of like I know like kind of what can I bring to the table. they have a kind of understanding like why I'm there and and we are figuring it out like what what could kind of be >> well that sounds like a wonderful journey and the fact that they brought you on they can see that value ad you you'll work it out it'll be fascinating I've got some rapid fire questions if you if you don't mind so as an ambassador what is one word that you would use to describe your experience during that time >> patience and authenticity >> okay big time which is which is more important authenticity. >> Beautiful. So, what do you think makes Hungary's voice unique on the world stage? Because not everyone's going to be familiar with Hungary as a country. >> Uh, we are a nation of individual freedom fighters. >> Love it. That's powerful. That takes your mind in many different places. What's the most valuable skill that diplomacy has taught you? >> Patience. >> Yeah. Does it work in your marriage? it does for my wife, you know, like no, it's it's a big one. In terms of values, what are the values that you think are so apt that you've learned as a diplomat and ambassador and now that you're bringing them into the private sector like integrity? >> Definitely. But I think there are it's the two sectors are not so different. >> Yeah. >> It's like I wouldn't say there is something which I couldn't have learned elsewhere than in diplomacy. >> Yeah. I like that. I think well the one thing that that you know you're used to dealing with governments and you know for a government to change its policy it's like moving an oil tanker with a feather right it's not going to be easy so hopefully in the private sector you get to see um even I'm not saying you didn't make impact but you'll see a bigger impact and faster probably I'd imagine what about misconceptions that um most people have about being an ambassador >> oh a lot that it's this super shiny fancy lifestyle where you have like stylists and people to prepare everything and it's just about like receptions and balls and events and constantly dress up and going around with the glass of champagne. No, it's not. >> Tell us tell us what is it really like? >> I mean definitely a lot of people think that it's it's this very shiny and glamorous but I mean think of the budgets of governments. Yeah. >> It's usually much less than than anyone would accept. So it's like a lot of creative approach, a lot of like budget cuts and a lot of like how do you make an event still shiny but at the same time like really creatively figuring out on on terms of like how to do it and yes a lot of things are done by yourself like I'm doing I did my speeches myself I did my dresses I mean I didn't had a stylist I didn't had a photographer I brought my own social media posts so it's like no you don't have a person for >> each and everything and you are still a normal human being. >> See, you you you become a one person walking, you know, actor, director, screenwriter, producer. >> I know. I love that though because it means you're so well equipped for many different things. >> What's the best feedback that you've ever received that has helped you on your journey? >> To always adjust my message according to whom I'm speaking to. >> That's powerful. It's not easy because learning who your audience are takes a little bit of time and foresight. And what what advice would you give to your younger self coming up through the ranks knowing what you know now? >> Authenticity again. But like Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think I did I did all honestly I think I did all good and I needed all the experiences to be who I am right now. >> 100%. It's a funny one because um sometimes I feel I'm I'm a little bit too authentic. It's okay in private rooms. It's you know on social media and stuff you have to watch your P's and Q's a little bit more. But what I have found is you know you have to be able to read your audience. But that has enabled me to communicate a lot better with people because there's no BS. It's just real. And look most of us have the same emotions and feelings. And if you can be honest with yourself and share a part of you, I find people are more honest back. >> Yeah. But at the same time, I also mentioned that it's important to visualize yourself like how you want to be seen by others >> because like and be authentic with that. >> Yeah. >> So it's like I'm not bringing the sound authentic Judith to this podcast or if I would be in another setting talking at CNA about like situations. I would be still authentic there but most probably in a lot of settings very very differently. So to adjust your message and to adjust your authenticity on like whom you are talking to, what is the room, what is what you want to achieve. >> If it's just like I want to have like really a deep internal connection and I'm looking for friends, then yes, I'm fully unfiltered. But if I'm like I want to do this project and I want to convince someone to do this project with me, then I'm seeing myself. I would like how do I would like to perceive myself if I were them and then build from there with my authenticity. >> Love it. Great sage wise advice. What's more important preparation or instinct? >> For me, instinct. I'm not good. As I told you, I'm not good with facts and numbers. >> I love it. A lot of people don't listen to their gut feel though. You know, it's interesting. And again, I think it takes time and wisdom to get to know. Sometimes you get burnt. Um but listening to your instincts very very powerful. But you need to be prepared though. I mean if you if you go to a meeting without fully I mean you need to have your numbers but you can have them on a paper. >> You see a lot of my guys I work with that you know they're prepping 5 minutes before a very important discussion. I said what are you doing? You know you need to equip yourself take your time think about quality get ready you know cuz you don't know the other person on the other end may be very well prepared. You're going to stuff it up. So it goes a long way. Um, in terms of mentoring, what's the most rewarding part of your mentorship uh journey especially of young leaders and >> I'm always learning a lot like the younger generation how they approach certain issues. I'm like, "Wow, okay, you really can do that." Yes, you have a point. I'm constantly learning. Mentoring is always a two-way street. >> It is right. It is. That's that's a big thing. And I, you know, I'm a big advocate for what what you can learn something today, you can implement and teach tomorrow, right? And that's the best way to remember, by the way, for me anyway. What is the one word that you would use to describe your leadership style, >> direct personal? >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, I think I'm uh and motivation is for me very important. M >> I always put out like what my motivation is and I try to figure out in my team what their motivation is and work with them on that and when when we are clear in the team on of each and everyone's motivation then it's easier to see that person through that lens because maybe one person is motivated because they are really passionate about the subject and they love it and they put it all in and maybe the other person is just this is just the job for me and I have kids at home and I want to be at home on time. >> Yes. And both of them are fully legit and fully okay. And I think both of them need to see each other for who they are. And for me as a leader to see them who they are and to utilize their strength and weaknesses accordingly. >> And that we are all aware that yes, >> this person is amazing, but they want to be home. You are great, but sometimes you're overdoing it because you are too passionate about and like let's take a step back and and do a reality check if this really applies to what we actually want to achieve. So it's like you need to you need to be very clear on on that. >> Great insight and a lot of bosses could learn from that because and and and actually if you've managed someone for a long time, you'll see different parts of their journey, you know, when they're single and hungry and you know, you got married with kids and you got to go home early. It's it's that's the beautiful part of life. Um if you could invite three women from history to have dinner with, who would be at the table? Katherine the Great for sure, Margaret Thatcher and uh third one might be probably Egyptian Farohus Hatcher suit. >> Wow, Margaret Thatcher. What a character she was. Hey, what a character. What a strong woman. Um I'm curious what drives you in terms of your ambition in your career on your journey >> making impact. >> I love it. Yeah, >> that's that's that's for me like really that I feel that it's meaningful what I'm doing. >> Yes. >> And and that I'm really creating impact. >> Yeah. I think it's interesting cuz when we first met, my immediate takeaway on you was that you're very kind and genuine, right? Also, no nonsense. I can see that. Um kindness is something that comes through uh with very special people, but not always, you know. And I think that for me anyway, that that's what resonated. That's that's actually let me just quickly like I have an amazing woman who had a great influence on me and that's Pinky Leilani and uh she is a wonderful person and she does the women of the future awards also in in UK and also here in Southeast Asia and I'm >> lucky enough that I'm on the board of her judges and she's always super inspiring and she started this kindness in leadership award >> really >> because she's talking about it how important kindness is in leadership and I've this very much resonates with me because >> you know unfortunately it's overlooked. I I can tell you I look at a lot of leaders and it's transactional. A lot of COS CEOs are in power for a very short period of time and no one's really thinking about the longlasting impact that they have on their team and their colleagues. But I think I would a bit like question that because I met a lot of people, a lot of CEOs, a lot of top leaders in in the world. And for me, the ones who really made an impact and and who they were always kind. >> Yeah. >> They were always intelligent. They always did philanthropy >> out of their own conviction, not because this is a mustave. And I saw that their impact and actually their companies thrived much more >> because of that >> than those which were only focused on on profit and on immediate >> it comes down from the top right 100%. >> And that's why I truly believe that on the long run that's that's what we need to embrace. >> That's that's sustainability in a very different way but it's 100% sustainability. In in terms of confidence, what gives you confidence and what does confidence mean to you? It depends on a lot of things but definitely yeah I think like for everyone it's like outside acknowledgement >> definitely when someone says you look good or you did this amazing or even in social media like likes and so on I think this is definitely feeding of that that you want like outside feedback that definitely gives you confidence. >> Yes. But I think like also for me like that's why for me my spiritual practice is so important because just when you can like kind of quiet down everything and deep down you look inside and you can you can look into the mirror and you say at the end of the day like I'm okay with with what I'm seeing and with what I've done. >> That's very important. It's very very important because then you can live with yourself. You know, the what I think is often overlooked in business and in careers is happiness. Because people will talk about many different things, but if you're not happy and content, if you're not valued, if you're not seen, it's a non-starter. And if you don't feel good about yourself at the end of the working day, forget about it. Um, I'm just curious because you're you sound like an avid reader. Give me a couple of books that you've read that changed the trajectory of your career, had an impact. Um it didn't change the trajectory of my career but recently I read the book from Bloodslav Mill how the world really works which was really an eye openener for me. It's a super interesting book of like how things are interlin and like just like kind of to have like a slice of tomato. It's actually comes with three spoons of uh of fossil fuel and like oil and like how it really how it's interconnected. how it was a really really eye opening book for me. That was recently one of my most interesting reads. >> It's you know it's I saw I saw this thing and I read about this guy who was explaining how a pencil is made >> right and you know if you take the the yellow paint that the pencil's made the rubber the the steel that covers it the lead >> this this is a global product not one person could make it and that is true of life. Well, Judith, it's been an absolute pleasure for to to share your story and learn about what you've done. Thank you so much and I'm super excited about what's next for you and how this unfolds. >> Thank you so much, Paul. It was amazing talking to you. I really didn't even recog felt the microphone. It was really nice. Thank you so much for having me. >> We could have done over a glass of wine. It had that kind of feel like. Thanks, Judy. Thank you. It's a pleasure. >> Thank you so much, Paul. Likewise. >> Cheers.

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