From Illusion to Impact, The Magician Who Turned Art Into Healing | #48

I hang 6 m uh in the air upside down in a straight jacket. I have 1 minute to escape before the rope holding two big giant jaws up come crashing down on me. It's a pure escape act. I'm a professional illusionist for the last 25 years. Uh the last 7 years I started moving into the theater and a business where I manage a venue now and I run a nonprofit arts company. The main thing is to always be bold to try new things. If we are stuck in the regime, we will never have an opportunity to be creative. I want to say that people and management has to be creative, especially if they want to stretch the dollar and make things work. One thing that I always loved about magic. Magic is not about thinking in a linear line. That's what I have brought into my company. we want to do is that we want to shape how our next generation is, whether our young people are going to be mentally resilient, whether what they do in school, their sports, how people speak into their life. We want to use our shows to speak into the lives of young people. What value can we add to the people that's creating this art? We wanted to stand in the gap in Singapore in the art scene and about giving back and building up the next generation. Recently, we just closed a show called uh Third Man Syndrome. This show, it was talking about suicide. It was a very risky production. I was thinking, would anyone come to a suicide show? I was really worried. Would the show resonate with people? >> Priscilla, how are you? >> Thank you for having me here, Paul. I'm good. >> I'm so excited. You know, every time I speak to you, I just smile, >> you know. >> Well, thank you. >> Now, for for the people that may not know you from my audience, can you be kind enough just to give a quick introduction as to who you are? Well, I'm Priscilla Kong. Um, right now I'm the executive director of three companies. Gateway Entertainment, Gateway Theater, and Gateway Arts. Uh, obviously from the names, you know that I'm the arts and entertainment uh, industry. >> Yeah. And how did that all come to pass? Cuz what I want to do is I want to turn back the pages of time because unusually you worked as a magician, right, for many years. How many years? >> Well, I'm a professional illusionist for the last 25 years. uh and in the last seven years I started taking over different I started moving into the theater and uh business where that's why I manage a venue now and I run a nonprofit arts company. >> Well, you know like a lot of my audience is from the private banking sector and they have to deal with multigenerational wealth and you know how fathers and mothers work with their children. It's not easy and you worked with your dad. It's been what 25 years, right? >> 25 years and going >> and going and your dad's so charismatic. He's a very strong personality. lovely man. But how do you find that? Cuz I I can't if you ask my kids, "Do you want to work with daddy for 25 years?" They will run in the opposite direction. So, how did that come to pass? >> Well, it started because um after my A levels, my dad asked me, "What do you want to study?" And I was like, "I'm not really sure." So, I mean, I had enrolled. I was going to do a a business degree. And he said, "Well, if you're still not certain, why don't you uh take one year off? I'm starting a entertainment company. would you like to just try it out? >> Oh, he hadn't set it up then. >> Yeah, it was being set up. So, I actually joined as an intern in the year 2000. >> Um, and that became the path for the rest of my life. >> So, at first I thought I would not be working so closely with my dad. >> He should be doing his own thing and I'm like under a director working on movies and productions. I thought that'd be fine. Right. >> That's how it started. But that's not how it ended. >> That's crazy. But so you were telling me you didn't do this growing up as a kid because that's what I had thought. >> Well, growing up as a kid, I love the theater. I love dance. I love music because I was doing all those. Yeah. But um it wasn't what I was going to study as a for a career, you know. >> That's mad. >> Very few people have the courage to follow their passion, you know. What what was the key behind that? I think it would have helped with your dad's, you know, guidance. >> Well, okay. That's very strange because I jumped into it because I didn't know what else I was wanting to do. So that was the starting point and uh what started as being in the movie industry moved into doing Magic and Illusions because my dad said, "Hey, there's an opportunity. I'm going to do a live show. I need somebody to help me. You're it." And so I was like, "Okay, I'm it since I'm working for you, right?" And >> I realized that actually I enjoyed being on stage. And with that we started going to the to to to Vegas to train under all the masters of illusionist. I I have great mentors uh from from from Vegas. >> So unpack that. How did that even start? Like so your dad reached out to these guys said this is what we're looking to do. >> Yeah. So we started with one show uh which we put together on our own and we realized that we wanted to use he wanted to use magic to talk about values about what about our belief um and which we were focusing on a fatherdaughter relationship which actually is because we realized that in this time and age uh there's always a growing divide between our families and relationships and we wanted to use storytelling magic to be able to talk about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So we reached out to people, we started making connections with illusion builders, with um um uh illusionists themselves and we we actually found like mentors. Yeah. Wow. In magic. So like one of my favorite mentors uh is Jeff McBride and he was the one who taught me the art of storytelling through magic and that magic is not just about the trick itself. It's about what is about the connections you form and what we communicate through our art. And that was the one thing that got me hooked into it and that's how I journeyied into magic for the next well for till now >> till now. Your dad to me is a renaissance man. I have never met anyone your dad's age. How old's your dad now? >> 73 >> with as much gusto as him. So when you guys were kind enough to invite me to the polo club. We were doing a walk around. He was telling me how some of the other riders from the international teams can get quite aggressive and say quite visceral things to him. and you know and then you know he's such a lovely obliging man but he he I could see the the tiger in him when he came out and he's still riding to today and he's in fantastic shape and and when you see people like your dad and you that have tried their hand at different things I like to think I'm similar it's rare mo most people you know like if you're a banker you're a lawyer that's what you do and there's nothing wrong with that's great but when you try different things it's uh it's a little bit scary but I think it's life is not meant to be bland you want to enjoy here, right? >> Yes. >> So, now before we go on to this, I want You've got a magic trick. Let's get it in first. >> Well, yes, we'll do a magic trick, but it's not a trick. It's really a game of imagination. >> All right. >> Are you ready for it? >> I'm a bit scared. >> Okay. >> Let's try this. Um, hold out your hand. >> Okay. >> Now, we're going to play a game. I want you to imagine that in your hand, you're holding the four queens. >> All right. Four queens. >> Four queens. Now, in this game of imagination, I'm going to take out two queens of the same color. >> Okay. In this game, are they the red queens or the black queens? >> I can tell you now. >> Yeah, you can tell me now. >> Uh, definitely the red queens. >> Red queens. >> Yeah. >> Okay, let's do this. Now, with the red queens, I'm going to take one queen. I'm holding the red queens and I'm going to take one queen and turn it face up. >> Okay. >> In this game, is it the queen of hearts or the queen of diamonds? >> Definitely the queen of diamonds. >> Definitely the queen of diamonds. Yeah. >> Now, I'm going to put them back in with the queen of diamonds face up and I'm going to show you just how good your imagination is. >> Okay. >> You ready for it? All right, >> I'm going to take this out. I'm going to spread this. Just look here. >> Wow. >> The queen of diamonds is faced up. By the way, hang on about it. I'm going to show you that you were thinking only about the queen of diamonds right from the start. Yeah. >> That this is the only red card. >> Wow. >> And the rest did not even bother to appear. >> That's amazing. So, this is just to show the camera. I don't know if you guys are picking this up. You want to show uh >> which camera? >> This camera. We'll try this camera. Show the queen of diamonds the other way around. No. Okay, that's amazing. You know what? You you got me a little bit nervous when you said, you know, four queens. I thought if my wife's listening to this, there's only one queen. That's her. You know, will I get into trouble? >> Well, you won't get into trouble because it's just in your imagination. >> That was an amazing trick. Well done. >> Thank you. I I'm glad you enjoyed it. But you know what worries me is that I'm so easy to read. >> No, I don't think so. I think you actually have a mind of your own. So, don't worry about that. It's very fun. >> Yeah. I'm telling you, you guys blow me away when when illusionists do what you do. It's pretty spectacular. So, let's talk a little bit about the genesis of what you're doing now because one of the reasons why we became friends is cuz, you know, I also have a love and a passion for the theater. >> Did you know that that's what you wanted to do in in school? No, actually I was one of those clueless kids. I had no uh purpose, no aim, no motivation in life. I was just cruising along and that's why my dad actually got me to start and work with him because he was worried about me. Yeah. >> And he just wanted to have an entry point to see was there something that I took to and actually I did take to it when I was in when I was working with him cuz I had the opportunity not just to work on illusion shows, I worked on movies, productions, TV shows. Oh, really? >> Yeah. because I was working with directors where I started right from ground zero. I was the I was the intern that was bringing the coffee, taking the notes, making the photo sex and at the same time learning all about uh what it takes to put a movie together and working from the pre all the way to the post. >> And this was in Singapore. >> This was in Singapore in the year 2000. So that was my journey. I started as a production assistant uh to uh a coordinator and finally I worked my way up to actually producing my own smaller events uh being a performer and throughout the whole journey I was also teaching magic and uh doing corporate shows and corporate events. I think it was in that journey that it helped me hone in that I was actually searching for purpose and meaning through what I do. Yeah. And it's not just about um being a job, but about how can I use what I'm interested in, passionate about to maybe influence or help people. And I think that that's what my dad was also about. And I think that that was one thing that really rubbed off on me. >> Yeah. Resated, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It really resonated. So that's why at Gateway Arts, we use theater productions to discuss social issues faced by children, youth, and young adults. Uh recently we just closed a show called uh Third Man Syndrome. How was it? >> It was amazing. Now, >> I'm sorry I couldn't go. >> Yeah, I I really wanted you to count. >> I wanted to bring my son, right? And he couldn't look out of the army. >> It's okay. But this show, it was talking about suicide. The the hitter was Why did he jump? >> So, personally, it was a very risky production. I was thinking, would anyone come to a suicide show? Is that going to entice people to come? Yeah. At the same time the show my director took a very trippy and um and far out the way imagine in imagining the show and I was really worried like would people resonate with would the show resonate with people. Wow. We were sold out. >> Wow. We were not just sold out but people not only came to see the show 3/4 of the audience actually stayed back for the posture discussion >> which was unpacking issues about u mental wellness some of the unanswered questions or things about how can they be there for a friend in need >> because the fact is is like in Singapore right now it's >> one in four people are struggling with mental wellness issues whether it's depression anxiety >> we have one in five youths who actually practice self harm which is actually very worrying. >> I think Singapore and Southeast Asia has the highest suicide rate for young men. >> Yes. >> Uh right now uh the stats is that 64% of all suicide are men because >> uh when a uh when a male decides to end his own life, they want to make sure it's done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's sad because, you know, I mean, why I wanted to come to that show in particular was I've I've known a couple of people, you know, two men that have killed themselves. One in particular shocked me because I had him around in my house for dinner with his wife and a friend three weeks before it happened and on the surface of it, you know, he was fine. There's a there's a very powerful advert where I don't know if you've seen it. There are two guys watching a soccer match. >> Yes. >> Right. And it's the guy that is the most, you know, engaging >> and he's the one and I've I've suffered from depression for many years and um I think it's partly a chemical imbalance, right? So, what I find is exercise helps me with it. Um, but it's very powerful. And I would imagine that the people stayed back. Um, how old were they? I'm just curious, were they were they, you know, like our age? Were they parents or was it across the board? >> It was across the board, but we had some shows where I was surprised to see everybody looking as though they were under 35, >> which was great because these are the people that we really want to uh reach out to. And I think that that's the power of theater. >> It it's a starting point for conversations. >> Yeah. So that's one thing uh I we we strongly believe in and that's why we not only just do shows about suicide. We go across the board that and it started off as being about social issues. So it could have been anything. It could we started doing shows about migrant workers at the past because we wanted to talk about empathy, understanding, kindness. Now we had moved towards mental wellness actually since co started. >> So we do shows that's talking about anxiety. We have shows that's yes specifically about depression. Our upcoming show brainstorm it's about how the youth brain works because if we think that in society there's a growing disconnect. >> Yeah. >> What we want to do is foster understanding. We want to um build new connections bridge conversations and that's what the show brainstorm is about. It's firstly understanding how youths think, how our teenagers think. >> And it's different now right? Everything is different now. It's very different and I think that we want to start from a scientific point why they work and why they think the way they do. It's because actually their prefrontal cortex is not fully developed. Um they are going based more on feelings because and that's why they their amigdala wants them to ride on this high and it's not their fault. And sometimes maybe as parents we don't understand and we respond to them thinking that they should be a rational adult or a rational teen but they're not wired that way yet. >> Yeah. So, it's really wanting to help parents understand their teens and actually teens understand that it's okay. You know, that's part of their development. >> When is this uh brainstorm coming out? >> It's coming out this end October. >> Okay. I'd love to go with my wife because she I struggle with that more than she does as a parent. She's an amazing mom, you know, about we got three kids as you know, two of them are teenagers, but the amount of pressure they're under is very different now, you know, and it's it's very difficult. Um, and then the show that you graciously asked me to come with with my daughter of Anna when we went to go and watch it, what was interesting was she didn't know what the evening was about and she became transfixed and she really enjoyed it, right? And cuz at first she goes, "Oh, I'm going with daddy to a work function, right? And she was a little bit shy as you know, but it was it was a wonderful production." Now, do you ever direct any of the shows yourself? >> No, I'm the executive director and not the director. >> So you but you've never done it? No, because I what I do is I look at the concept and at the entire at the company level what are the things that we want to communicate and what we do and I'm actually always the fundraising person >> which is the hardest thing right arguably but you have can you influence the director about who they put in the show? >> Oh yes of course that's something that we continually talk about because I do not I'm not only the executive director of the company I'm actually the producer of all these shows as well. You know why I'm saying this to you? Where I'm going with this is because >> you want to put you in the show. >> I want to be the lead. Yeah. I have to be the lead. By the way, you know, let's be just be very clear on this. And by the way, I don't audition. >> Yeah. >> I just I just I turn up and then I get the role, you know. >> Well, actually, usually we cast uh young actors under 35. However, if we need a parent role, we will definitely consider you. >> Oh, you've got me. You've got me hard. But the the one thing that I I fell in love with acting because it's very visceral. >> No one night is the same. It doesn't matter how well you've rehearsed. >> And the thing about it is it's just it's very m it's like, you know what it is? It's like live sports. >> You can't replicate it. I love the movies, don't get me wrong. >> Um and then there are people I don't know about you. Do you prefer musicals or plays? Because I've always preferred plays. >> Both. It really depends on the story, right? It's not just about the song, it's about the story. I totally understand about how each uh each show is always like it's like a live sport. It is never exactly the same cuz I mean for the last 20 years I used to perform live, you know, touring and performing live and we've had shows where there were major Yeah. Like something just happens and and you have to like change on the spot. So, I'm going to share with you one of the biggest boooos that we had uh on a live show before. >> Go on. So there's uh there's we have this illusion where it's like a big water tank. It's huge. Okay. >> I know this sounds scary. >> Yeah. And this was in the Dallas Live Music Hall um in in in what happened was that the hatch >> in Texas >> in Texas the hatch didn't close properly. >> Oh shucks. >> And it started to rotate. And on stage we had 20 gallons of water spill out. >> Oh shucks. On stage. >> On stage. >> Oh my goodness. >> Okay. So, can you imagine this is a this is a magic musical illusion show. >> Yeah. >> So, this is story line and it was part of it that somebody goes in. My dad was put inside. He's going to be tortured and he's going to be killed. Right. So, now >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Poor dad. >> Oh. And what happens is that in this thing, the water has spilled all on the stage. Yeah. Now we can't do the we can't do that illusion. Now the whole stage is wet. We're thinking what on earth are we going to do? >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So, and I'm on the side of the wing. The next scene is supposed to be somebody is uh grabbing me and showing me like look at this. They're like threatening me about what's happening with my dad. Yeah. So I just say everybody had frozen and I just said grab me and throw and like lunge me out onto the stage and say look at this. And so we were winging it all the way for the second half of the act. >> Yeah. >> Amazing. >> And everybody thought that it was an effect. >> Yeah. That the water running down the stage was an effect. >> Yeah. >> But that was a very expensive um >> I bet afterwards postp production cleaning up the clean up and damage and everything and that was like wow. Now, I've seen a picture of you doing the side splits, >> right? >> Yeah. >> With with um >> what do you call it? >> Oh, the aerial silks. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But so did you do dance in school? >> Uh well, yes, as like a like a CCA in school. >> Oh, so not because that's Can you still do the splits? >> Yeah, I can still do the splits, but I'm not going to do it on camera. >> Are you going to go across? Are you going to go across this? No. >> Across the but you could do it in theory. >> Yeah, >> of course I can still do it now. >> I can barely touch my toes now. Hey, you're a sportsman. You're supposed to be like um >> flexible. >> I was a sportsman, you know. Not anymore. No. No. But yeah, I always had problems with flexibility. So, that's fascinating to me. Now, let's talk a little bit about cuz what why I find it very interesting is most your theater companies will put on, you know, traditional shows. It could be Ipsson, Czechov, all all the classics, what have you. But yours has a very social impact. >> You know, the the meaning behind it. Was that a conscious decision on day one or has it evolved to become that? >> Uh, it was a very conscious decision. So, when I took over the companies, one thing I said with this theater company, I wanted to not do arts for art's sake. I mean, there's a lot of amazing plays um out there and there's a lot of amazing companies out there. So, I wanted to do something different that I believed in that I could do for the next 20 years. M >> and I said I think the one thing was that my father's spirit I've inherited my father's spirit. I want to really give back. I want to give back to society. I want to do good. I want to uh help build a resilient next generation. And that's why we wanted to to talk about social issues that plate children and youth in this generation. And it's not specific just to mental wellness. We want to be flexible. We want to be able to change with times. And that's why we kept it broad as social issues. And the thing is that I I'm a parent. I have a 22-y old son and a nine-year-old daughter. They're like at the end of the spectrums. >> Yes. And she's very cute, by the way. Yeah. She's gorgeous. >> And I realized that they are both very different. And I had a son who was more uh not wanting to talk about his emotions. He he always seems very happy. And I was always very worried because as a 16-year-old, he said to me, "I hate emotions. I want to like shove him down and I don't want to feel anything and I'm like going like red flags are like coming up my brain right like what I'm going to do if he faced something difficult >> and I realized that for all of us not just our children is that how can we be betterly better emotionally regulated okay but before being better emotionally regulated we first need to identify our emotions and that's something very hard for us in general >> and I think that that comes back to the disconnect we have in society whether it's within ourselves, within our families. Uh, and I realized that it's a how can we learn this language? And I think that theater has this ability to to not teach but to maybe communicate these values by letting people first understand and uh go through that through the play. Yeah. >> You know what I found though? It's I think it's it's you're one of the challenges you're going to face is getting young men, macho men into, you know, watch a play because when I did when I did theater, what happened was I was in high school and I got badly injured. So I was out of uh sports for at least 6 months. >> Mhm. >> And I was used to going out, you know, before school, break time, lunchtime, play sports. >> And I set up the the drama club, >> right, in high school. But actually I did it because it was my way of meeting girls and I got a lot of the guys took the mick out of me because they thought it was a very effeminite thing to be doing and and I said in the contrary, right? But when why I mention that is when I go to the UK or New York, I'll always go and try and watch something. But to get someone to come with me, one of my male friends, it's almost impossible. I have to wrangle them in. But like how how do you find that's a challenge for you guys or you think now more boys are going? Wow. >> It I think traditionally it's still the same. >> Yeah. >> U like when I look at the the people who come, it's usually always still 60% female, 40% guys. And usually the guys are there to accompany the girls. >> Yes. >> Yeah. However, I think it's based on the content. If the content is good, uh it speaks to them and it speaks to them, they would introduce it to their friends as well. Now, the thing is that because if we're looking about shows that target young adults and youth, the truth is how many teenagers come to the theater on their own? >> Yeah. >> Not many. Right. It's not a it's not a pop concert. They're not going to like want to, oh, I want to buy tickets on that for for myself. >> Yeah. >> So, it's about getting the families to come as a unit. And it's actually building that database of people who actually believe in the work we do or see that we do good entertainment. >> Yeah. And if they realize that it's good entertainment while having while promoting a value, maybe in the future they will be the next client tell. >> Yeah, I love that. Talk a little bit about you know your storytelling and how that your philosophy has has channeled that because what I find is I I'm a sales guy and storytelling to me is the art of human connection and interaction. Um, but I always find that the best storytellers there's a philosophy behind what they're trying to share. Do you find the same thing for you? It shapes what you do. >> I always feel about when we share something, we have shift, we have to share something that's true to ourselves. >> Yeah. >> And as we are sharing, we we don't want to preach, we want to just be authentic. I think that that's the one thing that theater that why I love theater. >> Yeah. It's because when we are performing or we are staging the show, we are trying to create this authentic connections between the cast and the in within the play and if we manage to do that people take away uh the emotions, the feelings that resonates with them and I think that that's the best we can do cuz I don't think theater or art is supposed to force a message down somebody's throat. Usually different people take away different things from the show itself. >> 100%. >> And I think that's what we want to do. How deep has some of your sensitive topics gone? Like what are the most riskier ones that you've done other than the suicide? >> It's really depression and suicide right now. So topics that we want to talk about is like things like body dysmorphia, acceptance of oneself. Um, and I think actually they all wow I don't know they're all around the same >> you know you know because what happened was I had um a guest on the show on the podcast called Camil Huck who set up the first acting agency here. I don't know if you know who he is. >> Oh wow. Really >> years ago. Yeah. and uh he studied in in LA and I met him because I had engaged his company to train my staff in Singapore and Hong Kong on sales and you know he's now doing a lot of this please take a drink he's he's doing a lot of this with corporate development because for me the two are inextricably linked because doing role plays you know improvisation and what have you and you're going to laugh so when I reached out to him before the podcast I'd even set it up I said hey bro I'm thinking of doing some acting. Can I come and buy you a coffee? He goes, "Yeah." And I said, "What are you thinking?" I said, "I want you to put a play on and you put me in one of the lead roles." He goes, "Okay. Um, but you'd have done you haven't done acting since, you know, your college years." I said, "Yeah, but I'm good." And then he goes, >> "I love your confidence. >> It's I'm 100% confident." Then he goes, "Yeah, but they're going to be professional actors." And I said, "Okay, that's fine." And he said, "But they do this for a living. You don't do." I said, "Mate, let me just tell you how I do anything is how I do everything." So, I'm not worried about that. But then what he started saying was the amount of time involved. I said, "Well, I can't take that much time off work. I've still got to function." Um, so then he said to me, he goes, "Well, you know, twice a year I put on this uh thing where I get my top students to do like a one and a half minute monologue storytelling." I said, "Okay, cool." Goes, "So, you have to audition for I said, "Mate, I don't audition right now. I tell you two stories right now and then you tell me whether or not I can do it, right? And I'm not coming across as an but I was I believe in myself, right? And let's go. No problem. So, I did it and had him in stitches. He goes, "Okay, you can do it." And um I said, "No, no, no. I don't want to do other people. I want to be the the person running things cuz that's how I am. I'm like I'm, you know, I'm I run my own business." So then he said, "I want you to do uh a one-man play, a oneperson play." And I said, "Now that sounds very scary. That scared me." So I said, "Let's let's look into it." He gave me three plays to read, but the problem was the subject matter was it one of them it alluded to. He wouldn't let me watch it. I had to read it. It alluded to the father was abusing his daughter. I said, "I can't do that." He goes, "Why?" I said, "I'm if I'm only doing one play for the rest of my life, I'm going to be remembered for that play. You know, I'm not doing 20 plays and there's a body of work." And but why it made me think because when I was in college, you know, one of those topics was uh sexual abuse in the home, >> right? And there was other topics and I and I remember reading about this thinking at a time, these are so powerful, >> right? You can't but help move people. And in fact, one of the plays I went to watch had it and actually people left after the the interval because it was so uncomfortable. But that's to me as long as it's it depends if it's done in a tasteful way when something is so powerful that it moves you to tears or to the point where you're leaving you know it's had impact. Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. I totally understand. >> I love it. That's why I love and and I'm not joking. I told you I go to plays every time I'm in London. I'll go and see one or two plays or the or the same in New York. >> Okay. So let's talk a little bit about >> So but just not as you were saying about what how far am I willing to bring some of our topics to? Yeah. I think as a young company I'm growing into that. >> Excuse me. >> Sure. >> Uh >> however, if you jump too far in, you're not going to be able to get mainly the schools or the mass of the young people to come, especially if your rating goes up to >> uh NC16, RA21. Yeah. >> And so then we miss the target. So one thing about it, it's finding that balance. It's about pushing the topic but ensuring that the general public can still uh still come for the shows especially with um Singapore's strict regime on our >> performance. That play that Vor and I came to watch did exactly that because it was light-hearted but it was meaningful. It made you think and pause. >> You know at the end of it you did really think wow this had impact. >> So like jumping into what you watched you watched an excerpt of Brainstorm which is the show that we're going to be staging October. That was an excerpt of Brainstorm. Okay. >> And the great thing about that is that that show, this show in October is written by testimonies from youths in this generation in this day in Singapore themselves. We took everything that they are saying, their struggles and we put it into a play >> because we believe that to be relevant, we need to reflect what's going on in society. >> Right. >> Now, are you you part own this company? >> Well, I manage it, but I don't own >> You don't own it? Yeah. Why I asked is because what I my my podcast is about career journeys and transitions. So you've gone from working with your dad to doing this. What was behind that trans like you said listen 25 years it's time to move on and and then what were you thinking? >> Okay full disclosure. >> Yeah >> I this I was very happy being a magician and a corporate performer because I had a lot of space for creativity. I get to just dream what I wanted to do and stage it. Yeah. >> So it came to a place that uh the current CEO so jumping in again I now run three different entities at the time I was just a performer. >> I did produce and I do things uh more on the creative aspect than the management aspect. >> So what happened was that somebody uh stepped out and said that no I can't do this anymore. And so a staff of mine actually said these entities have become like an unwanted child like nobody wants to take ownership of it. And that actually hit home for me and I said, "No, I don't like I don't like hearing that there's any unwanted children. If nobody wants these companies, I'll take them. I'll I will manage them." >> And my dad was very uh also surprised that I would have said that because he knows me. I'm sort of more of like a lighthearted uh go with the wind, go with the flow kind of person. So to be able to buckle down and and manage, take up a management role was something that he didn't expect from me and neither did I. However, I thought for myself at that point, if I want to see change or if I want to do something differently, then I need to start taking charge because that's how I am able to shape >> I love it. >> Uh the the destiny of the company, right? And that's why I took over both Gateway Theater and Gateway Arts at that same time. >> So, with Gateway Theater, which is our performing arts center, now we've really become like a art center in the suburbs, you know, cuz it's a book mirror. Yeah. However, we have a lot of youth competitions, a lot of all the Singapore Youth Festival shows that is taking place in our space. >> And it's a great space. >> It's a great space. It's a nstory building. We have two performing arts uh venues which is the main theater and the black box which you were in. >> Yeah. >> And we have lots of the dance studios and studio spaces. We want the whole place to be bustling with young people. And I think that that's why I made the shift so I can actually position what we are doing and be able to influence if for me it's the next generation. Then how can I get all the young people to be at our spaces and come to our shows? >> Are you able to gauge and measure the kind of impact that you're making? Cuz I would imagine it's not easy to do that. >> Well, yes. Um, impact measurement is very hard and that's something we've been starting at at our nonprofit. So I know I'm jumping between the entities but at gateway arts >> so we are starting out all our impact measurements I actually hired professional companies like CI global uh so that they come on board and do this measurements alongside with us because if you're measuring change and especially in aspect of mental wellness um it's not just about the number of people who came to see the show right yeah >> so it's about putting in that process and that rigor and which is something that we've just started on it's very interesting to see how we uh to do those data measurements Yeah, it is right because I think it's what people are going away and saying, right? Because when I left that um show, I went away and I talked about it and I think that's that's important, right? And and thought about it as well. Um what about, you know, your personal values because I think core to what you you're doing is education, right? And I think that can be overlooked in in what a lot of us are doing. But you're you're helping guide, you know, the next generation and parents like myself. You know, again, is that something that you're sitting down and you're you're having to consciously think about? Does it create pressure for you? >> Well, yes and no. The one thing that I've always thought is that who am I to actually be teaching other people? However, through this process, I realized that if I be authentic to myself and share my stories and use my reflections to communicate my values to people, well, hopefully it can impact just one person. And if one person can connect with what I'm saying, that's good enough for me. >> Yeah. Good for you. >> Yeah. >> You know, the the one thing that my children said when they met you and and Tyler in particular, she said you're one of the kindest people she's ever met. And and it wasn't just through your actions that time we interacted, but she felt it, you know, and that's that's and and and that my daughter sees people. She has a gift where, you know, where I feel I've got that gift as well when you meet people and you can tell what they're like. So I don't know. I'm sure you've got that feedback before. >> Well, I I get very embarrassed when people tell me that because I've never thought that I am. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> But you're you're a murder a serial killer, isn't it? >> Yes, I'm a serial killer. I just went like No, it's not true. It's just that I guess what I'm saying is that I don't actively think about that. However, I'm glad I'm thankful that if people say that, which means hopefully I'm doing something right. >> That's wonderful. Right. It's a it's the biggest compliment you can possibly get. Um now, one of the things that I realize when I speak to a lot of people um is that they get to burnout in the corporate world where they're not getting a chance to be creative. >> And where I'm going with this is this. I feel all children have an artist in them, a musician in them, a sports person in them. But you know, we all drew when we were kids or painted. And then when you get older, that level of creativity goes from 100% like to 20 or 30% and it kind of people we all feel like it's gone. Now you're the other way around. You're becoming more and more creative. You're finding different outlets. What advice can you give to the rest of us about you know finding that inner creative person? The main thing is to always be bold to try new things. >> If we are stuck in the regime, we will never break out. We will never have an opportunity to be creative. It doesn't need to be something like starting to paint. It could have been as simple as going for a cooking class. >> Yeah. >> Or going to It's just about doing something different from your your usual routine. And I think that that's very important for all of us. Um I don't think that I've necessarily become more creative. I felt I have to be more responsible and buckle down. However, I want to say that people and management has to be creative especially if they want to stretch the dollar and make things work. >> Yeah, >> it's and I think that that's something that we neglect or we we don't think about it. >> Speak on that. That's a very interesting point. Share share me with me your observations and your wisdom there because that's a great point. Well, I think that accountants, bankers, lawyers are creative because they're trying to creatively solve problems. Yeah, >> that's what engineers are in the in the uh from the olden days. They were trying to find solutions to problems and create things. That is creativity at its core. It's about thinking out of the box. >> Yeah. >> One thing that I always loved about magic and that's where my heart and root is from. It's because magic is not about thinking in a linear line. It's not about thinking about how to go from A to B to C to D. And that's why maybe magic connected with me. It's because I always wanted to think how can I do it differently. >> Yeah. >> And that's what I have brought into my company. And whether it's uh whether it's about putting up a show. However, I think that the the regimen of learning the steps or like the proper way of management is an important thing because only when you have that understanding then you can think how can I do it differently. If you don't have that foundation, you can't do things differently. when what made me laugh was it was it was your uncle that invited me to your show and then a very good friend of his who was a good friend of mine. These are two very senior staunch bankers, right, that have led big businesses for many years. And because they were in my line of sight for some of the show um what made me laugh was I could see the child in both of them. They were enjoying the show. And normally you think of I would think of these guys, they're quite staunch, you know, and then and that that was the wonderful thing about your play, right? It really captured because my 10-year-old daughter was enjoying the same stuff they were. It's like watching Tom and Jerry in the old, you know what I mean? That's that's that's the power of all of this. >> Um, >> when you think about what the youth needs of today, right, because it's it's changing so rapidly. Are you speaking to some of the younger people in your team to find out know what is on the the pulse of society now? Because, you know, like now social bullying is happening in a very different way. You have Instagram, you have people having, you know, fake numbers, you know, hidden group chats and stuff like that. But how are you doing that research? Well, like I said for brainstorm, we actually went down to do workshops with lots of youths and the one thing that we that resonated that was similar with across all the different groups of people is that the one thing that they want it's acceptance from their parents. >> Whether they had it or not, they wanted that acceptance. They wanted uh that respect and that connection. >> Yeah. whether they were doing well in school or they were terrible in school, it was always the same thing. >> Yeah. >> And it's we it comes back down to understanding. I think that if there's love and understanding in the family, it helps ride out all the difficult things that the youths are facing because bullying will be around, anxiety from school, change is it's always there. >> Yeah. >> But what we they need is that stability and love. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's very powerful. And we all want that. We all want our parents to be proud of us, right? What advice would you give to young theater practitioners that were thinking of setting up their own production or actors that are thinking about doing something like this? Because why I mention that is this. You have from day one not been in a regular corporate job. >> And I feel like why I mentioned that is look at my son. He wants to be a theater a movie director. Sorry. And >> you have to send him to us. >> Get him to do an internship with us. >> Yeah. I think he would love to. and and the the interesting thing thank you is that he you know I've analyzed this so when he went to so school of the arts and the parents of the children I found that they had this common thread and that was that they were very open-minded because a lot of parents as you know will say you're going to become a doctor a lawyer an accountant and for and for the for the parents that I met they're very open-minded they want their kids to be happy they want them to try different things >> but you know in world that I am in which is executive search dealing with bankers um it it's very different and I what I worries I've got three kids you've got two it's like how do you give them the freedom the confidence and the com comfort level to go into something new so I guess my question is is what advice have you got for young people that are coming up that are thinking okay do I go the safe way or do I go perhaps the less conventional route where there's a little bit more risk >> well it first comes back down to thinking what is your need in uh of that moment. >> So for people who uh have a bit more privilege and have the safety from the family, they can you can go and try everything that you want like try it when you're young because you have a family to fall back on. >> That's a very valid point >> for people who do not. I think it's really about then looking do you have the space to follow your passion? That's that's an that's a very practical way of looking at it. But if you do not and passion drives you then still go for it and then find those companies find that uh those smaller groups and collectives that will be able to support you or give you a starting point a platform to to journey with you. I think that's important that you can't do it alone. I mean yes you can write a script on your own but how you going to get your script >> out and how you going to get it uh so join a residency take part in the different programs that are out there. we have more and more programs in Singapore. And I think that by putting your work out there and getting known, then that's one way that you you will be have you will be able to find that starting point for yourself. >> You know, some of the actors that you had in that show that I watched, what made me smile was at the end when you introduced them and what their real ages were and what they were doing. And what you know what I love is when if you met met a couple of those guys, you would have no clue if you met them on the street for example or in a coffee shop that they were doing something like that cuz it takes a lot of courage >> right when you're out there on stage. It's it's it's a very intimidating thing for those that haven't done it. >> Um but what I love cuz I come from a very humble family and you're right like I I chose a slightly more conventional way because I didn't have the financial freedom to take the risk. So you you touched upon a really brilliant point. Um talk to me a little bit about when you look at plays that you've seen or books that you have read that you know left a really lasting impact. Are there any that spring to mind? >> Giving him >> I'll tell you why. So my favorite play that I ever watched was something called the seven streams of the river O. And um it was for each stream there was meant to be an act for each act was meant to last an hour. So there was 7 hours of play. So it's over two nights. >> Is what is it called again? >> Seven streams of the river O. I watched it when I was it's probably 17 or 18 and I still remember it. It's almost 30 years ago, right? Um and what just blew me away, it was over two nights. They had puppetry, they had music, they had dance. Uh there was some sexual innuendos a bit it was a bit risque but it just blew my mind because it had every different kind of medium that had a a screen with images and I would love I would love to watch it again now as as a you know almost 48 year old man and rewatch it but it left such an abiding memory at that point I thought oh actually I want to become an actor because it was just so powerful. I'm just curious have you read or watched anything that you can look back and say ah that that made a difference. Well, there's I'm going to come back to magic first because that was the one thing at my young age that left a great impression for me. Uh so there was a magician uh he's passed on. He's called Eugene Burger. >> Okay. >> And he was like a sage in magic. And when he was uh performing, he would just sit down, take a thread, tear it up, talk about life, and share how that through all these journeys in life, you can be restored or have hope. and it was about storytelling and so him as a person really spoke to me that was one thing however a book that really spoke to me at a young age was called uh warrior of light by Paul >> Coho >> and it's really a manual about life and it's saying that as if we believe that we are all a warrior of light in this journey of life is that how as we are going through life we might need to have courage we might need to have a sense of detachment and also a touch of madness. >> Yeah. >> And I love that because it really spoke to me because if we want to try something different and try something new and we know what we're going for, we just have to do it and not and ignore in a sense the the noise of the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So this book really spoke to me. Warrior of Light, >> you know, you know, um have you seen um the Sole show called Car? >> Yeah, I've seen all the shows. >> Which which is your favorite? Uh, O was the best because of >> It was great. I was great. >> It's because it's the most technical. It has everything inside plus the water. Car is great because of the wall, but in terms of skill, it's not as um Yeah. >> Yeah. It's funny cuz I've watched both of those. So, car I mean, they had some deaths early on on that wall and they had to restructure that the way it was designed, but >> cuz I took my I had two young kids at the time and my wife and I was just blown away cuz it's my kind of show. I'm a martial artist, right? And it was very it was very powerful and I was watching what these guys were doing and one of my very good friends worked for the de sole for 15 years both as a performer and then and then involved behind the scenes but there's nothing like a set show in Vegas. It's it's just on a different level. >> Well, House of Dancing Waters was not bad in Hong Kong as well. >> I've never seen that. It was good. It meant to be fantastic though. >> It is amazing as well. And right now Oh, sharks. Where was I in Dubai? There was a great show again. A circus show. Oh, really? >> That's coming out. And I love those because it's really integrating art and storytelling. And I love that little threads of that comedic moment that always carries through. >> Yeah. And but I have to say that the physicality >> is something cuz you watch anything these guys are just amazing. Do you know what I mean? >> And we we aspire to be like them, right? That's why you as a martial artist and like for me, I love the aerial silks. Now I'm getting old, but Yeah. >> No, it's crazy because again, I'll have to put this up when I show you. So my friend Kanukai, one of the I never got the chance to watch him live, which really upset me cuz he toured primarily in places like Montreal and Europe. So I never got a chance to watch him and I couldn't do that in my wildest dreams. It's too far away from what I can do physically, you know. And it's not just that. You also have to have a head for heights in what you're doing, right? Which is again very very scary. And it's the way the thing is it's not just the physicality as you say it's the storytelling it's the elegance it's the timing it's you know you have the music in the background it's it's it's amazing >> it do you know how many people it takes to put a s show together >> there like hundreds there like 500 people for like a old show and stuff like that um >> my friend used to do the costumes for the old show and I just even saw it and she made allowed me to come with her once just to do the deliveries and I was like blown away on what goes on. >> Yeah. O was I took I took my son to watch O and it was Yeah. It's you you people don't realize actually I have to say you know Vegas better than I do but >> it's actually a great place for kids if you want to do a lot of things. There's a lot of external activities. You know you're in the mountains in a short period of time. But the only thing is walking through and I took my 11-year-old son through. We're walking through a casino and I hadn't been through it and there were naked ladies dancing and then I said you're not watching are you? And then he goes no. He knows. I said, "Don't tell your mother, man. I'm going to get into a lot of trouble, son." >> Well, I'm quite sure she knows by now. >> She knows now. Um, I just want to do some rapid fire, some fun questions. Can you think of a quote that has made a great impact in your life? >> Well, my dad has always taught me to to lead with honesty and integrity. >> Yeah. >> So, if I do that, uh, I would never go wrong. So, that's one thing that he told me. >> I love that. I mean I wanted to ask you this if you don't mind me asking you this but I saw this with so your your dad is a highly charismatic man as are you charismatic woman um and my wife's father was you know hugely charismatic man how do you find working with him and and partnering with him because I'd love to do stuff with my kids but I I don't think they will agree. >> Okay. It was honestly it's it was a difficult journey. >> Yeah. >> So I would normally let him take the lead. I think it's only in the recent years when he decides that he allowed me to take on which then I'm able to step up into his shoes because I'm not the same as him. I think what my dad went through in his life has shaped who he is and I would never be able to replicate that. >> And uh I think one thing that he told me is that you be you. You don't need to be me. And I think that that was one thing that I took away. >> You know what's funny? My 10-year-old is my boss though. Avana, she runs me, mate. She's my I always say she's my CEO. Actually, I've got no I'll end up working for her. You know, it goes without saying. Um, if you could master one art form, right, that you are unproficient in right now, what would it be? >> It would actually be, oh my goodness, I'm so terrible at this. >> No, but like No, but if you're like if you're like even if you're talking about the arts or you're talking about, you know, illusion. So, if you look at like David Blaine, he's got so many different things going. I can't even watch that guy nowadays. Some of his stuff is too over the top for me. >> I think actually if something that I would personally like to do is I would like personally like to be a painter, an artist. Yeah. >> Are you any good? >> Okay. But I'm not great, you know. That's >> But that's one that's one thing you like to do. I like that cuz I like you know we said this off camera. You said I've got to seem to have a lot of passions. I do. You know, when I speak to a lot of people and they don't have any, I I just say there's so many things because I had the time and and the money and >> I would do so many things. >> Actually, the truth is if I could do one thing, I would love to be a circus performer. Really? >> Yes. Really? >> That's why I started with Ariel Sils and learning the trapeze. But like you said, we're at that age. We're never going to be at that level. Yeah. You know, >> that's true. Actually, I forget the name of the play. It will come back to me. the guy that acted as the Flash in the TV show when I took my girls to New York last summer and it was I think it was Water Elephant Circus or something and um we went but it was a it's a it was a play and a musical but about a circus act and it was it was it was in New York. It was really it was it was great fun. >> It was a dream of mine to actually set up set up a circus school in Singapore. >> Listen, it's not too late. It's not and think about how much fun that would be because right now in Singapore things are changing. I think at some point, you know, I can see there being a proper comedy show, a full-time comedy show here. I've, by the way, I want to do a comedy night one night cuz I think of all the art forms, >> standup comedy. >> I think that's probably the hardest. >> Yes. >> Right. Because you could just get booed off stage. You got to read the room and I think that would be the thing would be the most scary for me, you know, cuz I've seen people get booed and heckled and this that and the other. >> Oh, I don't think I could do that at all. Yes. I don't reckon. But if you do, I know one or two guys that have gone up and done it, you know, and just that really will push you, >> you know, but I I would try about that. Um, how do you recharge yourself spiritually, creatively? How do you take a time out cuz you got so much going on, right? How do you do that? >> Oh, I really have to just shut off means that uh at least every quarter I have to take at least a week or three three to five days off just for myself because if I don't recharge there's nothing that I can give. >> I love that. So I think shutting off and taking time for I would call it a spiritual retreat but literally cutting uh back off so that I have time to reflect. If you don't reflect um about what has happened there's nothing you can change to do anything different. >> I love that. And will you will you maybe travel or you could be here in Singapore? >> Uh either or. So sometimes I will go off but one thing I want to do is then try to read a book. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to say that that's been getting harder and harder in this day and age. So I've been trying to read a book about uh emotionally uh emotionally regulated uh leader leaders because I think that if I can be that I can be that for somebody else. >> Yeah. >> No, I take because I I'll share with you you know all the guys that work with me I always say to them when I hire them I want you to take two core holidays >> and look forward to it. So let's pretend this is January. I say look summer June, July, August, >> it depends if you have children or not or whatever but that period and then at the end of the year because of course you might take odd you know Friday or a Monday to make a long weekend but it gives you something to look forward to >> right and let's and you know some people say well that's if you have money I said no you don't even have to go away but it hopefully if you can cuz Singapore is such a small island it's wonderful but just to be in a new setting and then you look forward to cuz I find like know people always say to me going away is a work or play. And for me, it is always both. >> Why? Because I'm a business owner, right? But even if it's purely work, I'll find time to and enjoy myself. So, I just got back from Sydney late last night. I I had dinner on my own twice and um I found it, you know, I just got a chance to sit down and think and reflect. And you'll laugh. I bring a book with me. I bring my notepad. You know, it's uh it's it's a bit cathartic, but it forces you to think when you're on your own. Because if you because you know what I realize is if you but it's even when you're on your own it's how you choose to spend that time because you could just lie down watching TV. >> Yeah. >> Or you can be up and you can be thinking things. And the last thing I would say to you is what I find is walking. So yesterday I was invited by this guy to go to the gym for a workout in the morning cuz he knew I had to catch a a flight midday. And then his secretary wrote to me and said 5:00 a.m. I thought it was going to be like 6 half 6. And normally I would say 5:00 a.m. no problem. But that was 3:00 a.m. Singapore time. Right. you know, I've only been there for two days. I said, "No problem." So, I rock up there, did the workout, went for breakfast, and then I decided it it stopped raining finally in Sydney. I warm back. It was like a 45 minutes to an hour walk. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. I took I took my time and I was just walking and enjoying it, and I I was I was I was tired, but I was invigorated >> and then I was pumped like cuz like today I've got a heavy day and then I'm flying off again tonight. So, I love that. Um, what's one belief that you held in your early years that you've completely rethought now? >> One belief in my early years that I'm always right. >> Like you said this on camera now, Chris, you can't take it back. >> Yeah. Well, when you're young, you you you always think that you know better. But I realize that that's not true. And that's why I believe in working in a team because it's about hearing what other people's input are and then forming a collective uh opinion. >> Agreed. >> Yeah. >> You know the thing is I always say this to my team when I hire someone or I interview them. I always say look I want to understand my management style before we even do this dance which is when there's a problem or a challenge I don't want you to ask me what to do. I want you to say Paul this is what I'd like to do. This is my suggestion. And then I'll only have three answers. I said, "Pris, that's fantastic. Great job." >> Second case, I said, "Pris, that's great. Have you also considered this?" >> And then the third one is, if you're way off base, I say, "Look, I think that's a bit ambitious. Let's go back. Let's sit down over a coffee, go back to the drawing board." But what I find invariably people can't do that, they'll still ask me. And why I say that's important is when you start making recommendations and they're then executed, you'll feel good about yourself. But it also changes the way that you're viewed. Because if you're always asking what to do, no one's going to take you seriously. >> Exactly. So that's why I realized that from the start, I always thought that I knew better. But I realized that if I get people to speak up and I hear what they are thinking, if I can better understanding their thought process, we can make better decisions together. And I think that that's very important as a manager. >> I love that. What's one fear that you've outgrown and what helped you to outgrow it? Because you've done so many different crazy things. The one thing that I've never been fearful of is about doing stupid things. The one thing that I've been growing out of is my insecurities. >> I think that that's one thing as as a person whether did I make the right decision? Uh is this going my way? Now if you ask me to do a dangerous thing that I can do at any time for some reason it's like wired into my DNA. Yeah. But if it's about decision making and about looking looking forward for the future for a company, for a collective, I think that that's one thing that I've been growing out of my insecurities. It's like learning to trust my instincts. You know, you know what I what I love about that is is um most of us, we all have insecurities, but I find most people allow their insecurities. It prevents them for trying things. And I think that's a shame cuz most of us are far more capable than we realize. And that's because I feel we don't actually dare to say it out. >> Yeah. >> It's because I can tell the people that's nearest to me that I'm I'm worried that I can't do this or I'm struggling with this. It's by naming it that it loses power and then I have people that can surround me that either can give me good advice and good direction. And I think that that's important for all of us. >> That's brilliant advice. Now, one question I had for you is because I'm from the UK, >> but I'm of, you know, Chinese, Irish parentage, and I always felt my my personality was probably was too big and outspoken for the UK, for Ireland. And it's only when I got to live and work in the US that I really felt like I was at home because in the US, everyone is striving to be the best version of themselves. So, if you see someone's doing really well across the street, say, "Wow, Priscilla's doing really well. How did you do that, Pris? I want to do that. Whereas I find in most countries around the world you it's very different. So when you moved to Vegas being a Singaporean girl, did you find the culture very different in terms of your attempt to try something new and different? >> Well, just to correct you, we didn't move to Vegas. We just traveled back and forth a lot forward. >> But you were there a lot, right? >> Yeah, we were there a lot. And >> u I didn't find the culture very different because I was in a group of entertainers. >> So we were always looking at being the best version of ourselves. So I >> you wired differently by definition. >> Yeah, I was wired differently by definition and the one thing that I was never scared of was performing live >> strangely enough because maybe I never had the fear of failure in that sense. >> So for me doing management and all these things that I'm doing now, it's more scary than being a performer. >> Really? Yes. >> I never would have guessed that. >> Yes. Because this is something that affects something larger than myself. >> Yeah. >> You know, I love performing. I love like I would say love doing stupid That's why like there was an interview they asked me what would be the the most what would be your favorite act if you could choose to do anything. Yeah. >> I wanted to be strapped to a boulder and thrown off a plane and have to escape before I crushed to death. And that was what I said. And my magic mentor said to me, >> "No, I would I would advise never to do something so stupid because everything needs to be calculated and you have to take strategic risks, right?" And >> so that was me. I was wired like that. So I love performing. I love pushing the boundaries on stage. >> Wow. >> You're you're sticker dynamite. I absolutely love it. Are you are you an introvert or an extrovert? >> Uh when I was young, I thought I was an extrovert, but maybe now I'm ambivert. I don't know. Is that something we grow into as we grow older? >> I think things change. I think it's what your day job is as well. You know, like for me, I feel like um I'm 100% an introvert and no one believes that. You don't believe me, right? I wouldn't believe you. >> No one believes it. No one believes. So, you know that this is this will really make you laugh. So, that night I came and I first met you, I'd been invited to three things. >> Mhm. >> And they were a little bit linked to the podcast. Um but but uh I've always said no because my energy is consumed during the working hours of the day and the evening I'm just I'm going to crash. I can be with my family. But I said, you know what? No, I'm going to I'm going to do it and then I'm going to rub my kids into things, right? So I brought Avana to to your show which was wonderful and we really loved it. And then later that week I brought my son because he he had booked out of army and I'd been into invited to like a a podcast premiere and then we wor the room and this that and the other. Um but what yeah so for me I'm absolutely an introvert and no one gets that but what I what I realized is this is you have to learn to manage your energy >> right and then um that's how I get through my days you know so >> I totally agree with that >> is that sometimes we give so much at work >> yes >> and that we need our we need our thing to invigorate us which like I actually uh totally agree like sports going to the gym going out and being out there Yeah, >> just walking >> it helps, right? >> It helps. It clears the mind. It helps us breathe deeper. >> It it it restarts something in within us, which I think is very important. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it was like I just And I I I I don't know why, but I've just I'm trying to encourage my kids to to do that as well because because I was always, don't get me wrong, no one has ever thought of me as an introvert because I I step up and I put it on. But let me tell you, if my wife is having an event, I will hide upstairs. >> And if I'm throwing a party, which is very rare, like once every two or three years, I will have so much anxiety beforehand, I I will think of 100 ways how how to get out of this, you know, and I I will I will come up in my own mind like, you know, you've fallen down, you hurt your knee, you you know, and as you get older, you try to get past it. >> Totally get you, >> you know what I mean? Um, what is that one aome aha moment where you think the lights came on, you realize this is my calling. This is what I'm here to do. >> I'm not sure I had that aha moment. You know, some people they get it in the spark. I think mine is about the journey. Mine was that journey learning that I could do a bit more and if I push myself a bit more, I could get to the next step and that's where I've landed myself. And I don't think that this is the final destination. And I'm not sure that this is what I'm going to be doing. >> No, no, no. It's part it's just part of it, right? >> It it's part of it. But what made me kept on going uh especially from that young young age is actually when I had my kids when I had my first son. When you hold somebody that's beyond you and you look at him and you say that you want to give your best so that he can have his best. >> Yeah. >> And I think that that propelled me forward. >> It's a game changer. >> Yeah. Um, who who is someone that you've deeply admired from near or far, maybe outside of your work scope that you've looked at and you thought, I I really admire this person and it's helped your path or or maybe it could be the top three magicians that you know you grew up watching. >> I think one person was Jeff McBride up to today. He's still a a master illusionist, magician, and also teacher. And he was the one person who taught me a lot about my craft. Mhm. >> So he's the one person that shaped a lot of what I do. Uh the other person that really shaped who I have become is really my dad. >> I know it's not about uh from from a from actually not having a good relationship with him to now looking up to him as a person who inspires me. I think that's a great Yeah. >> How old were you when you didn't really like him that much? What age was that? Teenager. >> Teenager to my younger days. Because my dad was always traveling. Yeah. Yeah. >> So when he was traveling, my mom was the one who uh who was bringing me up, you know. So I felt like my mom was my my figure of authority. And so when my dad wanted to discipline me or speak into my life, I said, "Wait, you're not around. You don't know what you're talking about." >> Yeah. >> And so that really changed because we worked together. >> Yeah. >> So that was very strange because last time I would say I'll tell anybody, imagine working with your dad seven days a week uh and seeing him 24 hours a day. >> Yes. And people will laugh because that was the same thing that I had. I could not be in the same space with my dad that long till right now what where we at. We have a great relationship. I can seek him for advice and I can let his wisdom speak into my life. I think that's amazing. >> You know, I I was saying this to my son. I said most um especially fathers and sons, I have to say uh the boy tends to idolize their father when they're younger. when they're teenage years or early 20s, they demonize them and then unfortunately when the dad dies, they humanize them. And I said to my son, I want to eliminate the second one, right? You don't actually have to idolize me. But it's it is interesting. And and I think most of our heroes are close to home. And if you're lucky, it's one of your parents. Like like I can tell you my wife's my hero, >> right? And um I I learn from her every day. And it's uh I count my blessing to have that. Um, what's one produ production that you've been involved with that surprised you in a way that you didn't expect? >> Well, last year we did a show called Every Brilliant Thing >> and it was um one person one person show one woman show where we involved all the audience members. Yes. Like 70% of the audience got a a role to play in that show. >> Wow. And I think that what surprised me is how actually Singaporeans now want to get more involved and and more daring to be part of a show. I think it shows me about the changing culture in Singapore. And I think that we need to have more of such things in Singapore. >> It is changing. I moved in 01. It's a completely different place. >> Oh yes, that's like 24 years. >> Yeah. The cultural phenomenon, you know, like now because back then there was only like four or five channels. Trestal TV, you know, the now the world is a lot more global. I think that's that's that's wonderful. Um, when you're evaluating a new arts initiative, what's the first question that you're trying to ask yourself before you even go down that rabbit hole? >> What value can we add to the people that's creating this art? I think that's the one thing because what we wanted to do is that we wanted to stand in the gap in Singapore in the art scene and about giving back and building up the next generation. If there's nothing that we can value at and help them in their development, then is this the right um initiative for us? >> I love that. That's beautiful. What would you say is an underrated skill that every creative leader should look to develop? >> Spontaneity >> because if you if you don't know how to be spontaneous and if you're just going by the book, you will never dare to step out. >> I love that. We can all learn from that. That's very powerful. What's one misconception that people often have about the intersection of arts and social work? >> Because they're not often mixed. >> I don't know whether there's a misconception because that it's not mixed. >> So I think what we are doing is very unique. Right now people can't identify what animal we are. We look are we a tiger or are we a lion or actually maybe are we a tiger or bear because we're so different. >> Uh so I don't think there's a misconception yet. I want them to see that there's actually a connection. Yes. And that's what we're doing a lot with even all our data impact measurement work is because we we want to show that arts has a very powerful place in any of these social aspects. For example, in terms of mental wellness, how can we uh help young people uh have better understanding? Now they go through workshops and talks, right? But how can you do that through an arts program? So we are trying to actually study how arts school-based arts initiative theater based productions can actually move that needle in schools as well. >> Wow. Yeah. It's it is what you are doing is so different. What's one risk that you took professionally that you feel really paid off? >> I think it's actually moving into the theater space cuz theater actually doesn't really pay off pay well. Yes. Financially pay off. >> It's a labor of love, right? >> Yes. So I think that that was a financial risk because last time when we doing entertainment like we always say entertainment is the big brother >> of arts >> yes >> and that's the one that actually people want to find uh sponsor finance and actually support sometimes in >> you don't think you want to do both >> we are trying to do both but doing both at the same time is very tough >> very hard >> yeah so I think coming into the theater space was uh a challenge and something I think it's paying off because somebody asked me what is the ROI >> of our company. >> Yeah. >> And do I So, if I don't I'm going to put aside the financial talk first. To me, every person that comes in that is touched that wants to seek help that uh is daring to open up a little bit more >> is the return of investment for me. >> That's 10 to 100x is huge. >> Yeah. So, I just want to share uh last year at the show every brilliant thing. There was a young man that came for the show. He got the ticket from a social service agency. So he came for the show and when I met him his countenance looked a little bit off because that show was a very interactive show. We speak to every single person who comes to the show. >> So I looked at him I say oh don't worry just sit here and I kept my eye on him on the entire show. After the show I went to speak to him. He couldn't move. He cried >> and then what happened is that he let he told me that he was going to end his life that night. >> Oh my god. He was going to go home and from the 17th floor to take his own life. >> Oh my god. >> He was turning 20. That was his day. That was his birthday. >> Oh my god. >> And so I sat with him. I managed to call over uh the crisis counselor that was with that was on standby at the show. We spent another two hours with him talking to him and we managed to get his social worker to come down after that. and we talked to him about the hope that he had in his life and we actually helped him to go home safely and he lived another day and today he's still alive. >> Wow. >> And that's the power of a theater and one thing I say is that what is the value of a life? If what we do can save lives or can bring hope to people, I think that that is powerful and meaningful in its own way. >> That's beautiful. I mean you really are giving back and I love that. The person that asked you that question about ROI, why were they asking that question? They you people who ask us about ROI wants to know how what's the financial stability of our company people ask me this all the time are you are you monetizing the podcast I said no not yet hopefully maybe one day but it's not my primary goal but why are people so obsessed with this >> I don't know you're the banker you have to tell me >> I'm not a banker but you know I deal with bankers all the time but no I I feel that you know what it is it says more about them than it does about you because they value things in terms of monetary they they can't relate to doing more, you know, like for me this journey. If I've I think I've interviewed so far for the podcast like 54 people from a variety of different areas. We haven't released all of them yet. So, you do your research, you connect, you you look at what the person has done, their body of work. I'm learning so much. My memor is getting better. Um, so that that is a lot of value and I'm hoping that I will change someone's life like you're doing in my own little way. But I think it speaks more to them because they value things by the dollar. >> Um and and you know the truth is anything meaningful takes time to build. >> Yeah. I think people who ask that is really trying to see is this company worth investing in? Is this company worth supporting? >> And I think that if you just talk about our outputs in terms of dollars and cents, then they're looking at the wrong question because what we want to do is that we want to shape how Singapore is growing, how our next generation is, whether our young people are going to be mentally resilient. If we think that kids are only going to be mentally resilient because they have a workshop and a talk about it, I you're sadly wrong. They're shaped by everything, right? Whether what they do in school, their sports, and hopefully how people speak into their life. >> Yeah. >> And we want to use our shows to speak into the lives of young people, >> you know. Just thank you, Chris. Just to wrap up, I I had a guest on the show on Monday who runs a uh you this will make you smile. He set up the first MMA gym in uh Nevada. He's based in Las Vegas. So we did it virtually on Monday night and um he runs an amazing program for the youth. >> So it's for underprivileged children. um he has an agreement that if they join this program they have to commit to two years okay >> they get coached for free but the condition of that coaching is that um two I think it's two days a month they will sit down with a counselor and the counselor will give them tools to help them in their journey like the life journey and then another one of the days is to do what we know as tuition right because this person's a teacher as well and I just thought that was so impactful because it it means they've got skin in the game they're not just going there to learn how to do martial arts or boxing. >> Oh, it sounds very holistic. >> Oh, it's beautiful. So, if you could design one thing today to help your youth development program for Gateway Arts moving forward, what are some of the kind of dreams that you would have to put put into place something like that for your for your, you know, young young audience members? >> So, I'm trying to build an ecosystem that's not just about a play and about a show. That's why it's beyond the show. How can I create other workshops that kids can get involved in that helps them better understand themselves through theater games and theater skills? Because actually we learn a lot about ourselves when we go through that >> dudes >> that that process you know it's about learning it's about that workshopping that help them understand and identify what makes them tick and I think that that's important. >> Yeah. I think I think theater for children that's why I put my my two older kids in it. I think my daughter's next, you know, because you there's nowhere to hide and and if it's in a loving encourage encouraging environment where the kid has to get up on stage and speak to their friends and it's very powerful and it's fun. You can't have more fun in a couple of hours as a kid. >> Yeah. You want to play. >> Yeah. >> So, what just to wrap up, Chris, what are some of the projects that you're working on now that you can talk about uh in terms of upcoming plays that we can tune into and hopefully go you people can go and support you and watch it? Well, firstly, we're having the upcoming show, Brainstorm. It's happening this October from 16th October to 26th October. Come find out more at gatewayarts.sg. Please come to the theater and watch a show. I'd love to see your whole family, not just you both down. Next year, we already have a whole lineup of three shows. One show is going to surround. Seeing stopotion in theater come together. I think that would also interest. >> Yeah. My my son, by the way, just he had a stopotion channel on YouTube for many years as a kid. Oh wow. Really? I think I need to get your son's contact and see what we can do together. Yeah. >> And then we have another show about uh suicide which is very interesting. Uh it's going to be a show um it okay the original script is about a show in the UK. So it's about a lead football team but we are going to convert it all into a Singaporean setting. We're going to set up a bar in the theater. How how cool is that? >> Dangerous. >> That's so cool. >> Yeah. So we're going to do different things. And then we're going to have another show called How to be a kid that talks about um uh teens who or young people who don't know who have who have maybe suffered some loss and I don't know lost lost how to be a kid. I don't know how to say that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love that. Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you for having me. I This has been surprisingly not as scary as I thought it was going to be for 45 minutes. Really? >> Oh, yeah. >> You thought it was going to be scary? >> Yeah. >> No, you know me. No problem. >> You're a wonderful host. >> Oh, you're so kind. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. >> Thank you.

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