From Clinton to Asia's ESG Pioneer: On Public Policy, UPS & KKR | #55

ESG is about making money. My career that I had is not replicable now. From the time I was little, I was always fascinated with politics, always fascinated uh with [music] government. I always knew what my career path would be. I got very lucky in terms of my timing. Bill Clinton uh was was going to become president and I was able to to work on that campaign to get there. So, it it was a really exciting time. You had a a young moderate governor from the south. charismatic, >> completely charismatic. I always wanted to work in government, but I always knew where I wanted to go. UPS was going to expand into Asia. Um, they needed somebody to build a team in Asia to do all of that government relations work. The most interesting thing that that I I worked on was getting uh UPS the right to fly to China. This was the biggest case literally in in the history of aviation and there's been none since. It was a presidential issue. Um my boss at the time he said, you know, you're the quarterback uh on this team. This is the biggest issue the company is facing right now. Obviously, we won. And then they said, okay, time for you to go back to Washington. And I'm like, I don't think so. So, I said, thanks, but I'm I'm going to stay. Henry Kravis was was coming to Hong Kong and I was setting up a media round table for Henry who's you know this is one of the you know one of the OGs right of of private equity where KKR had decided that they were going to create public affairs uh for Asia and I say look I don't know anything about private equity I barely know anything about financial services and they said well we don't care so that's how I ended up joining KKR I I I'm pretty known in my tiny little narrow circle of being here in Singapore and being an American who's been here for 23 years. I have my own firm and have been doing that for 8 years. I put myself in the right place at the right time. I recognize that the more unique you are, the more opportunity you get. You know, you've got to take chances. Uh so I would say, you know, bet on >> Steve. Good morning. How are you doing? Great. Great to be with you, Paul. >> Man, I admire your energy. I'm someone that's got a lot of energy. But tell tell the audience what you normally do on a Saturday morning before you roll up to do a podcast with me. >> Well, Saturday morning I wake up early because I do radio every Saturday and we leave for the studio at 8:00 in the morning and on from 9:30 to 10:00. Uh, and we choose four different stories every week, sometimes up to the last minute. So, I have to get up early and and prep. Some of them I already know already. Like this week we talked about the US ambassador from Singapore getting confirmed uh to be by by the Senate. So he'll be on his way here. And so we talked about that and I had already done that story this week for television. So that one was easy. But then there's others where you really for me I have to dig in a bit like the Gaza peace plan and what that means. And so it's it's a it's an early morning on Saturdays for me. >> Good man. Now, what I want to do is for the few people that may not know you, if you could give a quick introduction before we roll back the pages and talk about your career history. I think there's a lot of people who don't know me. Uh I I I'm pretty known in my tiny little narrow circle of being here in Singapore and being an American who's been here for 23 years and has operated at the at the intersection of business and government and sustainability and and finance. So, so that's kind of where I am now. I have my own firm and have been doing that for eight years and before that worked for for other large companies. >> So I know you studied in Virginia but where did you actually grow up in the US? >> Well, born in Chicago uh high school in New Jersey, college and law school in Virginia and then in in DC before coming to Singapore. >> So which which place would you call home if you were going back to the US? >> Well, I I certainly know more people in DC. I'm more comfortable in DC having worked there and a lot of my college and law school friends are there. I think if we moved back one day, it'd probably be to California, which is where my family is now, my my mother and and my brother. But but really, you know, DC is kind of, >> you know, you know, it's funny you mentioned this cuz when I I went to DC, Virginia, and Chicago, all within a few weeks of each other, and I loved all of them, but they're all very different, and I love Charlottesville in particular. To unpack your journey, how did you decide to study law? What What was behind that? Well, you know, when I when I mean, literally my whole life, as long as I can remember, and from the time I was little, I was always fascinated with politics, always fascinated uh with government. Uh I from the time I was in first grade, the second grade or so. And so that I always knew what my career path would be. And uh the University of Virginia founded by Thomas Jefferson, you know, the third president of the United States. And it has a very strong government program. And Charlottesville is a historic historic place. So I always was attracted to the University of Virginia. Always knew I wanted to apply there. Always knew I I wanted to study uh government there. And so my career path up to a certain point was pretty, you know, pre-ordained. Did you you know why I'm curious is because I find that most people when they start on their career journey, it's not a linear space. You know, typically go in different directions. Um but did you know you wanted to go and work in government versus practice? >> Oh, I always wanted to work in government. whether you can do it, how you get there, that can be a little bit difficult, especially if you want to be on the political side, which is which is where I wanted to be. So, I got very lucky in terms of my timing of when I graduated from law school and the fact that, you know, a Democrat, Bill Clinton, uh was was going to become president and I was able to to work on that campaign to get there. Had I graduated 12 years earlier? Yeah. uh and we had 12 years of of Republicans, which was, you know, Reagan, Reagan, Bush for those three terms. I I certainly would have had a much different career path. Maybe I would have gone to work on the Hill. Maybe I'd have worked in in state politics or or government to start, but I always knew where I wanted to go right out of school. >> Really? How was it? Tell us. I want to hear about being part of the the Clinton administration. It must have been a wild ride. It >> you know, it it was and certainly it was a very different time than what we have now. When when we look back, I mean, the United States back then was political and this was the beginning of the real partisanship was, you know, I would argue in when Bill Clinton came in and and the Democrats and Republicans started to get uh much more tribal, but it hadn't been yet. So it really was a time where you could get things done working across aisle, but also, you know, Bill Clinton came in and there was so much energy because the Democrats had been out for 12 years and here you had a a young moderate governor from the South, >> charismatic, >> completely charismatic. So it it was a really exciting time and it was just such a a wonderful experience to have been a part of that really from the beginning of his of his presidential aspirations. >> Yeah, it was an amazing tenure. What when I'm just curious cuz I love TV shows, Westwing, you know, all these other show. Have you watched any of these shows and what what kind of comparisons can you do like House of Cards? >> Yeah, I can I can only watch them in bits because it's not real. I mean people ask me all the time, oh is the West Wing real? is, you know, is is this movie real? Is that movie real? And I'm like, it's a TV show. Yeah, >> it's a movie. That's not what it's like. I think some of some of the characters of what they're trying to accomplish, you know, who they are, some of that comes through. And there's some great people, and I think most people in in in politics and in government are in there to do the right thing. You may disagree with what the right thing is from their perspective, but they really but there are some and it's really hard to be a a a bad person to succeed because if you're going to succeed in government, you're going to succeed in politics, you have to be likable. People have to want to follow you. You have to be a good person. There are examples where there are not, but it's really minor examples. It certainly used to be minor examples. So, that piece of it is is real. Which presidents do you admire the most? Who's who's the one that you look at and think, you know, I really think they did a great job in office? >> Well, I mean, you if you do that, you go back to the historical. I mean, then you say Washington and Lincoln are are the two most important. I mean, >> in recent times, >> well, I would say in recent times, you know, it was John Kennedy when I was Now, he of course uh you know, was was assassinated in in ' 63 and I was born after he was he was assassinated, but it was that Kennedy, that charisma, that mystique, that, you know, we're going to go to the moon and we're going to have the new frontier and all of that youth and excitement um in what it could mean to be an American, what it meant, you know, ask not what you can do, uh what you could do for your government. Ask not what your government can do for you. Those types of things were so inspiring. So whether he he certainly isn't as great a president and as a Lincoln or a Washington, but he was inspirational to a lot of people and including me as a first grader, you know, 10 years after he was no longer president. >> He he clearly had a resounding impact. >> You know, when you look at guys like that and yourself, did you feel that you always had a calling to go into politics? Why I'm asking that is because when when I speak to young people, you know, they're often confused. What do you do? You know, you're you're in college, you're in university, what's next? Did you feel you had a calling? >> I did. I guess I I don't know if I don't know. I wouldn't have called it a calling, but it is what I wanted to do. There is no question it's what I wanted to do. When I was in 8th grade, I was interning for my congressman in in his district office. Uh when I was in, you know, college, I was interning on Capitol Hill where I had interned for for Governor Cuomo, the good Governor Cuomo, not not the not the son, but you know, Governor Mario Cuomo. I interned for him when I was was in college. I worked at at Democratic National uh convention. So, I did all of that. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew what I what I loved. And I knew that for me, you could have fun and you could make a difference. and and that's when you could do both of those things at the same time. Uh I think that was what turned out to be so attractive to me about about being in government. >> It's meaningful. It's impactful. Right. Well, one of the things I really admire about you is that you had the courage to go into business for yourself. What was that transition like and you know where did that process begin and end? Yeah, I well I it's you know when I my goal in life had been to to work in government and I got again very lucky in terms of timing, very lucky in terms of really you know wanting to work for for for Bill Clinton back when he was governor you know and working on that campaign and then all of a sudden now I'm I'm in government and you know it's 19 you know 94 uh in 1993 so I'm you know 27 years old and now I've gotten to be what I'd always wanted to do and so I served for you for 5 years briefly in the White House and then at the Department of Transportation. And then the question is, okay, what do you do next? Because I hadn't thought of the next. I thought I'd be in government. It would take me a while to get in or I'd be in for a long time. And you know, the administration ends and and when you're a political appointee, your time ends. And so I had no idea what I was going to do next. And United Parcel Service, you UPS, uh, came to me while towards the end of the administration. >> Oh, they approached you. They approached me and and they said, you know, would you lead our international aviation negotiating team uh in Washington and I said, I really don't know anything about that. I mean, I've been on the sidelines of a couple of of negotiations, but I wasn't a negotiator. Uh and they said, well, look, this is, you know, we don't care about that. You know, how government thinks, and that's what we need because UPS then didn't hire people from the outside. It was all people were internal and it was all promote from within and they were recognizing is they were a global company. They needed to bring in people from government. So they were hiring trade experts from government. They were hiring hill staff from government and I was the person they hired from government from the department of transportation who knew how do thought and operated and and would do an an aviation negotiation. So that's how I ended up uh at UPS and then you know eventually led me to be here years and years later. >> Yeah. I want to unpack the journey. So going from public to private, what was that transition like? Because different leadership styles, different ways of working. Yeah, it was it was I you know in some ways because I was in government that prepared me for the private sector and now in other ways having been in the private sector first like I worked in a law firm for two years not really you know the private sector and certainly not as a first and second year associate but had I been in the private sector first I would have done things much differently um in government >> just curious >> because you you know in in government you don't have there's no real time pressure on you right It's, you know, you take your time, you make the decision, you can put things off, you can talk about it, you know, forever unless there's some real action forcing event. And there's not a lot of action forcing events. They do occur, but they're not there all the time. Whereas in you're in the private sector, you have to make money. You have to, you know, if you want to expand uh into a new market, you want to, you know, buy a competitor, whatever it is, you need to make that decision and you need certainty. And government doesn't need that. government operates on a completely uh different level. And so it's important for business to know how government thinks and it's important for government to know what business realities are. And and that lacks both ways. And so what I what I've done in to some degree for my career since then is to be able to be that bridge to to explain to business how government thinks and then to explain to government what business needs and and how they can work together. >> Yeah, I think that unique position will probably go a long way. Um, so did UPS bring you to Singapore? >> Yeah. No. So, so when I left, uh, well, I, you know, so I'm in government, UPS comes to me, uh, and says, you know, will you run our international aviation negotiating team out of Washington? And I said, well, I really don't know how to do that. And they said, don't worry about it. You know, how government thinks, um, that's what we need. So then I went to UPS and I did did that in the UPS Washington office uh, for about three years. And then they came to me and they said, "We want you to move to Singapore to build and lead public affairs for UPS in Asia." They said, "Well, I really don't know Asia." And it been like once um or twice. Uh and >> what does that mean, by the way, when they say public affairs? Because when you think about UPS doing the the the sophisticated things, you wouldn't it wouldn't spring to mind, right? What does that mean? >> Well, I'll give you that in a second. So, yes. So, they came to want you to build and lead public affairs for UPS in Asia. And I said, "I really don't know Asia." And they said, "Don't worry about it. You know UPS. you know, public affairs, we'll teach you Asia. I don't think that would work today. I think 23 years later, they would want somebody with Asia experience to come out here. But that's not what it was like uh 23 years ago in the in the old days of of of the expat era. So, what does public affairs, you know, mean and what does it mean for UPS? I mean, for a company like UPS, it is extraordinarily regulated uh by the government. And if you just look at it, you know, as an airline, it is regulated by the FAA for safety. It's regulated by the, you know, the the the office of the secretary. It in in Washington, in other agencies of whether in foreign governments, can you fly here or not fly here? How often can you fly? If you can fly here uh from the US, can you go somewhere else? So, you have all of the government really controlling in a lot of ways how UPS can operate as an airline. How do you customs a huge issue, security, a huge issue, uh tariffs, a huge issue? So, postal competition because UPS's competitors in in many ways are the National Postal Services. So, you need somebody who can really understand how government works. What is it that you want to do as UPS? If you want to expand into a new market, you need government approval. If you want to change a service, you need government approval. If you want to compete on a level playing field with a a foreign postal operator or a foreign company, you need to make sure that government gives you that that level playing field. So UPS and and because UPS grew up right over a hundred years ago now, of course, but UPS grew up in the United States competing with the post office in many ways. It really got public affairs earlier than I think almost any company um in the world. Now, everybody gets the importance of having a public affairs, a government relations team, but UPS got it first. Um, and they they were and are great at it. And I was lucky enough to be with them uh for for quite some time to learn how to do public affairs from UPS. So they sent me here because as UPS was going to expand into Asia um in a very significant way starting in the early 2000s. They needed somebody to build a team in Asia to do all of that government government relations work. >> I'll tell you a very funny story. So cuz you joined them in Singapore in 03. >> I came here in 03. Joined them in DC in 99 and came here in 03. Yeah. >> So I arrived in Singapore in 01 >> and I was told Paul I was 22. you're going to work on the legal desk. And um I started making some inquiries and found out that there was an in-house council group of all lawyers in house that would meet >> and I self-invited myself and I was told by the guy that was running the group, "Look, Paul, I appreciate your courage, but you need to get the hell out of here." And I said, "Well, look, let me give out my 250 name cards." And he goes, "Well, you can't do that." I said, "Well, can you give me the list of all the attendees and I'll get out of here." I was 22, right? And then we shook hands and I said, "Look, I'd love to buy you a bill one day." Um, so I dropped him an email and he was the general counsel for FedEx. And he introduced me to UPS, which became my first client. And I told you they were looking for a tax accountant who was legally qualified. And at 22, I didn't know anything. And it's not like the internet now, right? >> And then I found someone that had accounting and legal qualifications, but it was it was a major setup then. So when So then were you looking after the region at multiple locations? >> Yeah. No. So is although all those jobs, you know, the the regional public affairs. So it's it's all of Asia. Uh and obviously you you're responsible, but you work with the country teams because they're very involved with with the local governments especially is is is as a regulated and entity is UPS. And then one of the things I was my first task when I was sent here was go build a public affairs team in China. So I hired two people uh in China uh to work as for UPS China public affairs and then built the team further from from there but started with with China in in 03. >> I mean you and I know this but having been in Asia for so many years it's crazy when we look at the growth like when you mentioned China and Singapore it's there you know unrecognizable visav when we first came out to Asia right? >> Yeah. >> So so then what was the journey you did you move to KKR straight away after that? So I was at at UPS uh and UPS is back then maybe a little less now but back then kind of like the military right it was when I joined it was still a privately held company it went public soon after um I joined but it kept a lot of that DNA was that you joined UPS you joined UPS for life you were going to be well taken care of and you would move where they told you to move and I had been here I was supposed to be here for 5 years and that becomes six years and that becomes seven years and then they said okay time for you to go back to Washington. And I was kind of like, "Okay, what am I going to do?" And they're like, "Well, we'll figure it out when you get there." And I'm like, "No, I don't think so. I mean, I like what I'm doing here. I like I love being in in Singapore. I love seeing the growth. Um, and I'm not just going to go back to Washington to do what I don't know what I'm going to even do." So, I said, "Thanks, but I'm I'm going to stay." Uh, so decided to to stay in in Singapore. and then had to look for a job and and fortunately uh pretty good timing uh where KKR had decided that they were going to create public affairs. So the global investment firm they were going to create public affairs uh for Asia. And so as I'm interviewing them, you know, I say, "Look, I don't know anything about private equity. I barely know anything about financial services." And they said, "Well, we don't care. You know Asia, you know public affairs. We'll teach you private equity." So that's how I ended up joining KKR. You know what? Your your transparency and honesty it just but it worked for you, right? Did you do because a lot of people don't if they if they're uncomfortable, they'll probably give an answer and try and BS their way around it. But do you find that's always worked for you? >> Yeah. Well, and my career advice and you know, I I speak to a fair amount of of of colleges and and and universities or people who just seek me out randomly. And looking back at my career, my advice is make yourself unique. Yeah. >> The more unique you are, the more opportunity you get. And so, you know, KKR when they were were were were hiring, they didn't they needed somebody who had my skill set and it's much easier for me wasn't easy, but much easier for me to learn private equity than take a private equity person and and teach them about public affairs. You're same for UPS where they you can't take somebody and teach them how government thinks. you can read all the books that you want, but unless you're really in government and knowing how it works and things to be able uh to navigate it, that's the the skill set you need. So you the more unique you are and the more you play to your strengths, the more opportunity you get in areas you don't even think may be applicable to you. >> Did did you know much about KKR before you joined them and what an outstanding firm they are? >> Uh no, I really I I did I didn't know really I >> ignorance can be blissful. I didn't know much about private equity. Obviously, I I read Barbarians at the Gate when when I got uh when I was starting to to interview with them, a famous book about a a takeover of RJR Nabiscoco that that KKR um eventually won. And it's a fascinating book. I I highly highly uh recommend it. And so that was, you know, I knew that. Um, and then when I started to interview, I was like, "These are some of the smartest and nicest people that that you're going to find." Which is very surprising to me because, you know, you you're thinking private equity, and this is all very cutthroat. Um but it's similar in a way to government because private equity then I think it's changed now but but private equity then is you needed to convince a company to let a the private equity firm buy you outright or buy a part of you and you better be a nice person. You could be a very tough person but you better be nice and fair if you're going to be able to work with to to give up your company to them. And so that's something that that that really stood out to me as I was going through my 23 interviews. I think I had 23 interviews. Might have been more. Uh and [laughter] uh you know because back then it this was still very much a private equity firm. It's not anymore. It's a huge global investment firm, but it was really they wanted to make sure if you were going to come in that you were going to fit and that it's something you really really wanted to do. And so it was a very intense the most intense uh interview process. Was that over what 2 3 months? >> Oh, I think a little bit more than that. Probably four or five. And it only and the reason I got through in four or five months is because now I had left UPS, I had no job. Um, but I had a competing offer uh for for another for a global firm, not a not a not a financial services or private equity. And I said I said to them, I said, "Look, I really want I want to work for KKR. I want to work with you, but I cannot afford to, you know, wait for you say no to this. And if you say no, I'm really out of luck. And so that forced the interview process to take only 5 months. >> Yeah. Not too bad. And then tell us about that journey because you know you've now gone from office UPS financial services, private equity. So now your breadth of knowledge has just exploded, right? >> Yeah. Well, well it so when I when I interviewed with KKR and you know they said, "Okay, you're going to be in charge of public affairs." Now public affairs by definition at UPS is you know 90% back then 90% government relations public policy a little bit of comms as it would relate to government relations public policy a little bit of CSR as we would use that philanthropic aspect of CSR and working with governments and then we would never call it sustainability but a little bit of sustainability uh back then we didn't know what the word meant really you didn't use it back then but that was UPS. It was really a government relations public policy job. When I got the job with KKR, I okay, what's public affairs? And they said, well, one-third is government relations, public policy, you know, one-third is comms and one-third is ESG. To which my question was, what is ESG? Because I had never heard of ESG before. And this is in 2010, early 2011, and I'm going to be in charge of something I'd never heard of uh in my life. So, I had to Google it to figure out what it was. Um, and I was in hindsight, not in hindsight, but I was I'm almost positive I was the first global private equity person to do ESG in Asia. Um, and that not my foresight at all, but KKR's foresight of where the world was going and and how it had to get in front. And then the thing about KKR, well, the UPS and KKR had the same geographic remitt, you know, basically a a triangle from Tokyo to Christ Church to Mumbai, uh, and everything in between. But UPS was you know aviation, transportation, logistics, postal whereas Karee was everything because Karee could invest in any sector. It could be a pharmaceutical investment and at the same time it's doing logistics and it could be doing offshore helicopter services and it could be doing um you know bubble tea or it could be doing coffee could be doing anything. And so it was such a it was the broadest job you could you could possibly >> but amazing right and so interesting. And then what was what was your KPI? What were you tasked to do over the the Were you with them for five, six years? >> Seven years. >> Seven years. So what were you tasked to do as it evolved? Because I'm sure it did. So >> no, everything. I [laughter] mean, you know, it's a it was a great job, but it was a it was an in hindsight, it was an intense job. You don't realize it while while while you're in the moment. Um, but no, I mean, it could be everything. So, it could be, you know, we want we have a a company we're invested in in Taiwan and we want to do a uh a a public to private uh you know, take a publicly traded company and and and take it private and you need, you know, so that's a real that's a really serious government relations public policy job that has a communications piece to it. But at the same time, you could have an NGO protesting one company in in a different part of the world. So now you're working on that and now you're you've got a deal coming and you have to figure out, okay, what are the ESG material factors uh for a Chinese dairy? So you you might be working on that. Now you've got a communications issue with a mining logistics company in Australia. That could that could literally be one week. I mean, so you know, that could be you have no idea what's coming on any given. >> But I'm just what I'm curious about is because it's it's happening so quickly. Have you got to sit down and design this? Okay. So, I'm going to contact these guys from this this uh government office in Taiwan or Taipei or wherever it is and work out how I'm going to handle this conversation without stepping on any toes because you talk about it like it's easy, but the the reality is there's a lot of finesse and nuance I would imagine. >> Well, I mean a couple different things. So, so for any like that type of issue, so a public affairs issue, and this is what I was taught uh at UPS, you always got to figure out what are the four Ps of affairs issue, right? So what's the what is the the policy aim you're you're trying to address? What are the politics around that policy aim? Because odds are there's going to be somebody opposing you and there could be others who may support you. So you have to do all that stakeholder mapping around around the politics. And then what is the public interest that you're advocating as defined by who you're advocating it to. It's not what I think is in the public interest of Taiwan. It's what does the Taiwanese regulator think is in the public interest of Taiwan because you have to show him that what you're asking for is in his interest. He knows it's in my interest. The question is and then the fourth P is people. You need to get the right people involved. So I am not often going to be the right person who's going to do this. So who is going to be the right person? Could it be the company that that we're working with? Could it be a KKR person in Taiwan? Could it be a lobbyist that we have to hire? Could it be a consumer group? Could it be a university? I mean, there's a very wide range of who is going to be doing it. It is often not going to be me um who's going to be doing it, but it's going to be somebody else who's going to be doing it. So, you have to think of four Ps for every single issue that you're going to have a government advocacy on. And that's I learned that at UPS and I when I teach, you know, public affairs every once in a while, I always talk about, you know, you got to know the four Ps. >> I love that. I'm fascinated by it. One of the things I wanted to ask you because a lot of people are worried about pivoting and changing their career and you've had the courage to do it, you know, multiple times and I know it was not always by design. So when Clinton left office, it forced that change. But what's the thought process in that moment? Are you asking yourself what's important to you? What what your ambitions are? I'm just curious what was going through your mind. >> Yeah. Know I mean I think it part of it is uh you know what is it that you want to do? Where is your passion? If you want to add a fifth P, you where where is your passion that you're going to really want to do something um every single day that you're going to want to get up and maybe not every day be excited, but be excited more often than not about waking up in the morning and and going to work and then understanding and I think most people underell themselves. Uh what is your value? What what is it that you have that the company needs? you you obviously the company has something that you want but what is your value and understand what your value is and bet on yourself you know make that bet on yourself that that you're going to be successful and most people well at least I think a lot of people are afraid to bet on themselves they're worried that if they give something up they won't be able to get something new and and I think that that's that that people don't have enough confidence in themselves that that they should >> that that's that's a great bit of insight because I think a lot of people get to that tipping point and they realize ah and the the challenge is if you in an organization there's always someone next to you or underneath you that's going to you know bite the bullet and go for it and they end up being your boss you know um without talking about anything sensitive what was perhaps the most interesting project that you worked on at KKR and the most complex >> I you know I I mean there's I was going to say I will go back to UPS because probably the most interesting thing that that I I worked on one of the interesting things I really worked on uh was getting uh UPS the right to fly to China. Okay? Because at that at that point um there were three US airlines that had the right to fly to China and three Chinese airlines that had the right uh to fly to the US. And the US and China had negotiated an agreement that a fourth airline would be permitted by both. And so this was the biggest case literally in in the history of aviation at least going back for for for a few decades now because it was the first time that a passenger airline and a cargo airline were battling with one another to get a a single designation and this is when China was just starting to take off. So this is you know 1999 uh 2000 and so it was the biggest aviation case in in years and years in Washington and there's been none since. It was a presidential issue um because you it it was the the biggest thing going between multiple companies. UPS cared, FedEx cared because FedEx didn't want us to win. You know, Delta uh wanted to win. American wanted to win. United and Northwest didn't want them to win. And so it was massive. And I was was sitting, you know, really at at the very core of it. and is the my boss at the time. He said, "You know, you're the quarterback uh on this team." And he said, "Uh, >> no pressure." >> He he said, you know, there was a lot of pressure, but but he said he said, "I'm only going to be mad at you if if you tell me one thing." He said, "If we lose this thing and you come to me and said, well, if we have had just done this, we might have won." He goes, "You ask me for anything, you're going to get it. you tell me why you want it and you're going to get it because this is the biggest issue the company is facing right now. And we had and and you know every UPSer was was working on this literally around every like hundreds of thousands of people working for UPS were writing letters to their member of Congress saying UPS needs to get this access. I mean it was just >> huge. >> It was huge and was all out and obviously we won. Um, and so that that was one that I'll I'll never forget. I'll give you one from my government days uh that I'll never ever forget was um there had been a a a series of airline crashes in in the US. Um you know, starting in you know really in the in the '9s uh you had TWWA 800, you had a Value Jet crash, you had a US Air crash, you had an American um Eagle crash. And the way the families of the victims of the aviation disasters were being treated was was it was falling through the cracks and no one was was taking ownership of this. the airlines was saying were say we don't want to do anything that could get us in trouble legally and the government was saying well we don't have any role in this and you know the Red Cross would say well we're there to help but we don't have any power and so they really were not being treated well and Congress passed a law that said that the department of transportation and the national transportation safety board had to devise a way to ensure the fair treatment of the families of the victims of aviation disasters and no one wanted to touch this thing because it it's not it's not really, you know, a sexy project and you're dealing with very serious issues and there's not a lot of upside. People didn't think to it. So, I actually I went to to my boss, the general counsel and the secretary. I said, "I will run this thing uh this this task force. Um, but I want to run it. I mean, I'll do it, but I want to run it." And they said, "Great, you do it." And so, I did it. I was the co-chair with the or co-executive director with the the National Transportation Safety Board uh chief of staff and we did this and and it was it really turned out as as well as you could have imagined because we brought everybody together. So we had the families of the victims of of aviation disasters on the task force. We had the airlines on the task force. We had the pilots union. We had the flight attendants union. We had people who had been in in media and and were now in in in professors to talk about what's the role of the media. We had the Justice Department, the FAA, the State Department. We brought everybody together and the the one story I tell from this that that really broke the ice and because the airlines and the families were were kind of like not trusting of one another. and what would happen and and we brought in a psychologist who had worked with attorney general Janet Reno and she came in to explain the situation and when there was this is the old days right there's no internet and and in the old days when there'd be a plane crash >> a a wife it was typically a wife because the husband would be flying the wife would call the airline and would say okay there was a plane that took off from Chicago to Pittsburgh it crashed was my husband on that plane here's his name And the airline would say, "We can't give you that information." And the wife would say, "Well, I I I know he was flying home, but sometimes he took the 12:00, sometimes he took the 3:00, sometimes he took the 6:00." Um, so I don't know what flight he was on. What flight was he on? And the airline would say, "We can't give you that information." And it caused great stress with the wife. Uh, and the airline thought it was doing the right thing because the airline was like, "Well, what if we tell her he's on the plane and he wasn't?" or what if we tell her he wasn't on the plane but he was we're going to make the situation worse. So the airline thought by withholding information it was doing the right thing. And the psychologist from the justice department came in and said look humans crave information. Humans just in especially at a time of great stress like that need information and they can understand the context of the information which you give them. So, what what the airline should be doing is saying, you know, Judy, we don't know if your husband was on the plane. We know he had a reservation um for that flight, but we don't know if he was on the plane. >> And Judy was like, that's all I wanted to hear. And so then that changed everything. So Judy recognized the airlines weren't trying to be harmful to her, and the airlines realized they weren't doing the right thing, and it just completely changed. And from that moment on, every recommendation we came out with was was unanimous. And to this day is being adopted. And you can see plane crashes now where one of the things that changed again, you know, you plane crashes are pretty gruesome. And I unfortunately, you know, went to a couple sites and it takes a long time to identify the bodies to confirm because there's not much if anything left. It's horrific. And so you don't get the in the insurance doesn't pay off until there's a confirmation. And it could take weeks because you have to have DNA testing. Maybe it goes a little bit faster now, but then take weeks, months before you get that confirmation, you get the insurance payout. And if it's the the sole bread winner on that flight, you're not paying the mortgage. Your your bills are are are getting delayed. And the airlines would say, "Well, if we gave the money, it's an admission of our guilt. Now, we don't know. Did were we at fault? Was it pilot air or was it Boeing's fault? Or was it Rolls-Royces or G's fault? Or was it the government's fault? Or was the plane shot down from a terrorist attack? And if we give the money, then that is an admission. So, we don't want to give the money. And we brought lawyers together and said, "Okay, airlines, here's what you should do. Just say, here's a check for $10,000 >> or $25,000 to get you through. If you get insurance settlement from this, you pay us back." So, it's an interest free loan now and that's what they do now. And that was a recommendation that came out of our task force in n I think it was 1997. And so, it was we made such a difference. And this is why I loved working in government. You could really make a difference in people's lives and in lots of people's lives for years and years and years. And so I would say the China case in one way working for UPS will will stay with me forever. And being on this task force and seeing it all come together will will stay with me forever. >> Huge. I think some what that psychologist did to help you guys. So simple but profound. >> And and this is what we knew. We knew we didn't know what we were doing. And everybody thought they were doing the right thing. But go find the experts, right? they'll find the people who have that different point of view, who have, you know, you're who have the the training, the study, the life experience, whatever it may be. And broadening that out is what makes you successful. >> Well, it's it's, you know, it's when my dad died, the hospital called, we I had just gone back to Ireland. We knew he wasn't well, and they said, "Look, you really need to come and see him." And I was just with him two hours ago, >> and no, we think you need to come. and I had just got off the flight so my mom and my brother went and it turns out he had already passed away but they don't want to tell you that because they know you're going to drive erratically and what have you know it's a it's it's very difficult >> going back to that China deal um because in living memory I know just how complex you know liaison were back then what were the three takeaways what were the three keys to victory to getting that deal across the line >> yeah I I think well one was you really need to make the economic case and and you really need to show what is the financial benefit to the country because here right the United States government is making the decision and the decision is what is the economic impact that is going to be greatest to the United States and you need to make a a very strong economic argument and you know the the sound bite I did not come up with our our uh head of of PR uh came up with uh was uh uh uh you know it was was business over tourism >> because their sound bite, which they didn't have, but basically was people over packages. It they they were like, "It's more important to be doing the people-to-people exchanges. Therefore, the the the passenger flights are more important, and you should give it to American or Delta, not give it to, you know, not not give it to UPS." And our argument uh was was business over tourism. Yeah, it's nice to have people going back and forth, but what really drives the economy is is cargo. It's packages. it's express delivery. And so we showed how much value there was in a UPS flight. And we showed that for every 40 daily international packages that would come from China to the US, that would lead to another UPS job, which was likely to be a teamster's job. And so we then had the political uh come into this as well because I said one of the things when when when I was coming up with the strategy, I said, you know, I want to get the Teamsters to be a party to our clever to our case. And the Teamsters had never been a party airlines, the pilots unions, flight. >> By the way, you got to explain to the Singaporean audience for that are listening cuz you know, unions are not a thing here, right? So >> well they are kind of right but not not like in the US with teamsters >> right but so the teamsters are are one of the largest unions in the United States and they are very politically important to >> they can make or break your campaign >> and and and back then and even to this day do the teamsters you know there's a battle do they support Trump or do they support Harris and so what we wanted to say was we wanted to get the teamsters to support UPS and that that would matter to the the government Now, it's not supposed to matter to the government, right? But because politics isn't supposed to matter in in a root case like this, but we knew you want to play that just in case um it might. And what was really odd here is that the teamsters and the labor unions in particular were very anti-China. You know, they were like, you're going to, you know, we're going to lose all of our jobs to China. Um, and to have the teamster say, "We support UPS getting the right to fly to China was a really big deal from a political perspective and and I think from an economic perspective, too." And that caught I mean, I know it caught the attention, you know, of of the White House and of the Gore campaign. Um, and so that was one of the things that that we did to make both the economic case, which I thought we had the strongest economic case. I thought we had the strongest political case in part because of the teamsters, in part because we had those hundreds of thousands of employees handwriting letters to their members of Congress. >> So, so keys to victory, the economics, the commercials, the politics. >> Yeah. In that case, it was it was both of those things. And you really had to you had to prove it. Well, no. I think it was it was, you know, remember I say what's the what is the public interest? What's the policy? What's the politics behind it? And so, you know, you get the the politics at the state level, you get the politics at the federal level, you get governors running in, you run a PR camp. >> It was it was complex. >> Which was the bigger competitor? Was it the commercial airlines or the other carriers like FedEx? >> No. No. And it Well, FedEx had the right. >> So, FedEx was doing everything to block us because FedEx didn't want the competition, right? the same as you know United which was on our side because United didn't want the competition either. So you had in a way they were kind of a wash and it you know which is what you need right if you you and so what we wanted to do as best we could was make sure that the politics were neutral and because we did believe and I think we we we proved that we should win on the economic merits. So but you have to play if you don't play the political game and your opponent does you're in trouble. So, we had to we had to get the politics at least be a wash uh and if not outright win it to win, but you had to win on the economics. >> Did you think Al Gore was going to win? >> Uh I did. I thought it was going to be close. Uh uh and frankly, he probably did win >> with a recount >> looking at what happened in Florida. And you know, I was I was working on I so I took holiday. remember I had left the Clinton administration and I I took holiday from UPS to work on the Gore campaign for for a couple weeks. So I'm in Arkansas uh a state we did not win. Um uh but I was in Arkansas working on the campaign and as the results were coming in that night, you know, we're all talking to one another and a friend in Florida, which you know, we lost by 500 whatever votes, but a friend in Florida was like, "No, we won. Um we know where the votes are coming in. We know what the vote should be. Don't worry about it. we're going to win this thing. And that's when the butterfly ballot was there and people were putting in nater instead of Gore and all of those things came together. So, I thought we were going to win until election night. Now, once we got into the recount, I thought we were going to lose because I didn't think the court would would side with us once was ahead. >> Did you grow up watching things like um Robert Redford, All the President's Men? Because, you know, when I watched all those movies, they just inspired me. So, when you're talking about this, having not been there, see, that's what I've got in my mind. Yeah. No, I mean again it's a movie. It's a movie, but yeah, All the President's Men is a great great great movie and and is I mean it tells the story. I mean that's a real life story. You know, it tells very accurately. >> You know, it's interesting like Robert Redford's one of my favorite actors. He's just passed away, but unknowingly that man has shaped part of my life because um I went to Kenya last year because of the movie Out of Africa which I fell in love with. He directed a river runs through it. Um, I fell in love with fly fishing. The first time I went, I was lucky enough to go to Montana where that was filmed. What a brilliant actor. So, let's go back to KKR. When when you were coming to the end of your journey, why? And then what was the next step? >> Yeah, was I had 14 years of of of regional public affairs at that time, almost seven at at KKR. I had planned on being there for five and everything was structured to be five. So, it went a little bit beyond that and said, "Okay, time for something new." And I wanted to either do I was going to do one of two things. Um I either wanted a global role um which I was interviewing for for with a a commodities firm out of out of Switzerland. Uh that ended up not happening and that's a longer story. Uh and and then um and and was either going to do that but wanted to stay in Singapore uh if I wasn't going to get that global role because of where the boys were uh in their education and and where I was in my career. sort of said I was going to do something entrepreneurial and and take this platform approach um uh to my career if I wasn't going to take that that global role uh approach. So I created uh APAC adviserss and it was always going to be really just me. It's not anymore but it it was going to be just me. >> Well, slow that down a bit because that that to me is fascinating because I went into business 19 and a half years ago. So that whole process, how long was that decision making, the thought process and who were you seeking counsel from? Was it your wife? You know, who was in your corner? >> Yeah. You know, I would say was from a family perspective, they're like, you know, you're going to be fine. You know, you know, you'll you'll we'll be fine. We trust you. You do what you need to do. So, >> that that's that's helpful, but it's not sometimes because sometimes you you're thinking, should I do this? You know, this is completely different. Or maybe you didn't. Maybe you just jumped in. What did you do? >> Yeah. I know. I mean, I think I said, look, I want I mean, what is the what can I do to to stay here? right and I obviously was talking to people to figure out um if if this was going to work or not and and because of my uniqueness I I think I'm more unique now having been here 23 years back then I was here for about 15 years and that I had that uniqueness I was the first person to have done you know ESG private equity uh in Asia I had that US government experience I had that public affairs experience so I knew there were things um that that I could do yeah and and and it It was a relatively lowrisk from a financial perspective strategy. I didn't have to spend any money basically creating this. You're Singapore. It's pretty easy uh to to create a legal entity. Uh and so what I was trying to to think through could I should I focus on government relations and public affairs? Should I focus on ESG and and private equity? And I was talking to people um and there was the founder of a a global geostrategic consultancy uh in in Washington McClardy Associates and and Nelson Cunningham who is the co-founder and and co-CEO of that. So I called him for advice. I knew him from my my Clinton days and and and had always kept in touch with him and had done some work with him both at UPS and KKR and you know said Nelson here's what I I'm I'm thinking you know what do you think? He said well just come work with us. Like oh okay that's easy. So now I have one anchor client, right? I got the anchor client there on the government affairs side. Uh what was then called the emerging market private equity association, now the global private capital association, you know, said, "We want you to help us get established in in the region and, you know, become our senior adviser." So now I got a second client. So now I've got I haven't even started. I know I've got Mclarde. I can work with them who I very highly respect. >> Great runway. Yeah, >> great runway. and and so I could build build off off of that having having those anchors and so decided to do that. >> Can we touch upon this because one of the things that people may not be so aware of when you go into your own business you know you get paid for your advice but you got to get the work and getting the work's not always easy like you know and you have to put that sales hat on you know initially to develop that work. What did that look like for you? Cuz you already had a large rolodex but I'm sure you still had to pick up the phone and meet new people >> you know you know yes and no. I mean I I I mean I did but a lot of it like I do a lot of speaking. I go to a lot of events. You've got a huge network >> you know but chair you know chair of of Amcham in Singapore, chair of the American Association of of the Amchs of Asia Pacific working now with the American Association of of the Indopacific, the work I do at the Global Private Capital Association. I don't have any issue meeting people, [laughter] you know, that that is not a problem. So you know, I mean I'm just always meeting people. Hey, here's what I do. And they're, oh, you know, we'd like to talk to you. Um, and now I'm at the stage that, you know, more people reach out to me than than than vice versa. Uh, which is a good place, of course, to be. So, I never thought of it as I need a business development strategy. It's kind of it's kind of part of what I do in terms of of of my networking. >> Yeah. It's organic. Yeah. Before we talk bit more about your career, one thing I wanted to ask you about was health and fitness and your energy level because as I said when we first met, you've got that energy and I'm I'm someone that resonates with that. But walk us through, you know, your health routine, you know, and how you balance everything. >> Uh I don't balance anything. [laughter] You're an extremist, right? No, I mean this this is always always on. I've always had a high high energ always have had a high energy level and it hasn't as I get old now. It hasn't diminished yet. So that's just that's just part of of of who I am. And I think it is because I've loved every job uh that I've ever had. And I think that's a big part of it. Huge. Yeah. And so wanting to do what I do. Um excited to do what I do always. again, sometimes more than others, but always excited and and loved what I've done and respected where I was and was proud to say, "Here's here's what I do." So, I think uh that's part of it. And yeah, I mean, I like working out. I mean, you know, I like going to the gym every other day. I still play softball. I'm, you know, far and away the oldest person out there now. And uh but can still can still run around the outfield. So, it's it's and and you know, eat, you know, relatively well. page is you can kind of make sure of that. And you know, don't smoke. Drink probably a little bit more than I should, but that's [laughter] that's fine. >> Amen, brother. No, no, I love it. I think it but it's something that people don't talk enough about because, you know, when I look at my dad naturally was a great sportsman, but you know, men of that generation, they drank, he used to smoke, he stopped smoking, and they don't exercise. And I think, you know, it's a big part of who I am anyway. If I don't exercise, I don't feel good. I'm not on. Do you know what I mean? Um, let's talk about giving advice to CEOs about ESG and sustainability and how to balance, you know, what the business is really trying to do and what it should be perceived as doing. >> Yeah. Look, it's easy in in in a way. Um, and ESG is really misunderstood uh more now than I think ever. ESG is about making money. That's it. And and if and and when when I go to a CEO or I go to a private equity firm or a deal team or whatever it is, I just say, "Look, this is really simple. I'm here to help you make money." Yeah. And if I can't do that, why are you hiring me? Yeah. Um and I love it. >> That's it. I mean, and now you have to be able to explain why it's about making money and how you make money off it, then that you you go off of there. That's But that is your starting point. And there's a and I think people conflate and think differently about CSR uh in ESG, right? So CSR is is corporate social responsibility and that is what you do as a good corporate citizen. Um it is philanthropic in nature. It's what you do. You know, if you're a a person and you know, you you know, you spend time with your church or or your temple or you volunteer at a a school or you work for the PTA, you know, you go on on cleanups at at at beaches, whatever it is, that's that's what you do as a person. And businesses should do the same as well. But that's that's not how they make money at its core. ESG is how you make money. How do you operate as a business that has a material impact on the environment that has a material impact and material is a key word on your workers, on your customers, um on, you know, how you interact with the government that that impacts your bottom line either because it's it's risk mitigation or value creation, but it's about making money or about not losing money. And that's what ESG is. And so if you go in and you say to a CEO, I'm here to help you make money. They're going to say, tell me how. Yeah, >> if you go to a CEO and I'm here to make you more sustainable, they'll be like, well, go talk to somebody else. It's about making money. And if you can do that, then you get you're in. Now, you better be able to prove it, right? But that's how you get your in. >> I love that. What are the couple of give us a couple of examples how companies can make money through ESG? >> No. I mean, what Oh, yeah. We do what diversity, which of course is a uh, you know, a negative word uh in in the US, certainly with [laughter] Trump uh, and others right now. But I would say look what percent of your customers are are women or what percent of your customers um are women making the decision of whether to buy your your product or service. Now if you say you know 60%. >> And then I say okay how many of your senior management are women and you say well 20%. I'm like, okay, does it make sense that 20% of the people who are in your senior management are are women, but 60% are are buying? Wouldn't it make more sense that you would have more people who are women to think about how women are making decisions on on on how to buy? Um, and they would say, "Oh, yeah, that does make sense." So, it's not going you need a quota. It's not saying, "Well, you should every company should have x number of women and therefore it's a hard quota or anything like that." You would say every company should reflect its management should reflect its customer base. I mean that when you take that approach it then people start thinking about it differently and they'll say well do we have the right management team that is for our customer base. Now the answer might be yes but now you're thinking about it uh very differently. Um and so you could you could you talk about that you could talk about you know um employee engagement. Uh so I say what percent of your employees are uh you know think that they're proud to work here and if you say well I don't know then I say well if you knew the answer to that question then you would know you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing because the higher employee engagement rate you have the less churn you have the less money you spend on recruiting the less money you spend on training new employees the more productive an employee is so it's so even on like those soft s issues it's it's about making money, selling better to your customers, having employees that you don't have a high churn. All of those are would just be two easy examples. >> You know, the thing is the biggest dichotomy in business is that most CEOs I feel that are in the job today probably won't be in the job 5 years from now. They're up for reelection every year. And I think that what you're saying is so impactful short, medium, and long term. But the problem is it's not their fault. Most cos aren't really thinking long term. They've got to put runs on the board to look good today. So, what advice would you have for a new emerging CEO that hasn't been one before? Because we're seeing it a lot. We're seeing a lot of people coming through being put into CEO roles, you know, that it's their first time driving a car that big or a vehicle that big metaphorically speaking. What would your advice be to them on day one pretty much when they're thinking about ESG and making money from this? >> No, I mean, I think it's a ESG is about making money. You've got to understand how your business operates from a material perspective. So material meaning what is going to move the bottom line or not. So you're you're it's not just and then and don't treat this any differently than you treat anything else. I mean if you went to your CFO and said you know how what's your you know what's your projection for next year on revenue and your CFO said well we're going to raise it. We're going to make more money next year. >> You say your CFO you know that's not an answer. How are we going to do it? How much? What's the capex gonna be? It's how many more people etc etc. So you don't and and so if you say to your chief safety officer or whatever you you know you say what's our plan for safety or we're going to be safer next year but you that's just as ridiculous as a CFO saying we're going to make more money how are you going to do it why are you going to do it so I would say take that ESG mindset and and that and it's going to be the same mindset as you have to material business perspectives and I would say the other thing that I [snorts] try and and and tell CEOs I I I have a chart that I I use with them is that we think of the actions we take are the exact opposite of what we should. What what what you want to do if you're a CEO is you want to spend as little much uh as little money as possible to have the greatest impact to prevent something from happening. And but what CEOs and companies often do is spend the most amount of money to have the least impact. And why do they do that? It's because they ignore issues that are coming up that might be a blip on a radar screen and they don't have the radar screen on or they don't even have a radar screen or they don't have the right things in place like taking employee complaints, having a whistleblower line, listening to your customers. So all of these little indicators that if they paid attention to and they could fix a problem before it becomes a problem, then they would spend the least amount of money and have the greatest impact. They don't do that. They wait until the problem erupts. And what happens when you have a bet the company issue? Okay, hire the law firms, hire the crisis comms firms, hire the lobbying firms, do everything we can to fix this problem now, it's really expensive and it's it may not be too late, but your impact is going to be a lot less. >> Talking about having a whistleblower line, do many companies even have that? >> Well, I mean, some do, right? And then >> well, after this whole Snowden thing, you'd think that you'd have that, right? That that red telephone in the HR department or something. and and they may have it, but they don't listen to it or or they don't publicize it. So, they have a whistleblower line. And when you if if I'm doing due diligence or I'm having somebody do due diligence on on a company or you're in the investment phase and you're doing an audit and you want to see how they're doing and you say, "Okay, do you have a whistleblower, you know, line, phone, email, whatever it may be, and they say yes." And you say, "Well, how many complaints do you have?" And they say, "None." Said, "Well, okay, that's wrong." you know, you you either you have to be having complaints. So, you're either not publicizing it or you're getting complaints and you're not telling me because people complain about everything. I mean, a lot of the complaints might be, "Oh, the water doesn't work in the shower." I mean, that's fine. Go fix it. It's too hot. It's not, you know, it it is only cold. You know, the food's in the cafeteria is no good. You're going to be getting complaints, but you want to know if you're getting the real complaints. And if somebody's telling you they get none, then you know there's something wrong. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Yeah. >> Geopolitically, what are some of the key things that you think CEOs need to be thinking about right now if they're based in Asia, >> right? Because there's so there's so much turbulence in the world today. What is we, you know, you were kind enough to invite me to an event this week. A lot of things came up, but what's on your radar right now? >> Well, the the end of the global rules-based trading system, it's over. Uh, and we have no idea what's going to come next. Uh, and so you really there's just so much uncertainty out there now. Um, and so a lot of CEOs and and others are saying it is things are changing so fast I'm just not going to pay attention. I can't if I don't sleep, right? Because I got try it's my job to keep up with everything and I'm having a tough time keeping up with everything and I'm not running, you know, a major company in in the region. And so some people are now starting to it's just so much you you don't know what to do. um or you're not thinking through the second order effects, the third order effects, the fourth order effects. And literally, you know, I'm trying not to be too, you know, too time specific to today, you know, but we now see we've what we've always been saying like Trump is taking all of these actions um and comp countries are going to retaliate and they hadn't been yet. And now, you know, we see China retaliating to Trump. Now, Trump is saying he's retaliating for what China's been doing for the last 15 or 20 years. That's accurate. Um, so now you had China take its actions. Trump is is taking his actions. China is now counter retaliating. Trump is now counter retaliating to the retaliation. And it's going to change the world. And so what what's going to happen when China acts differently because of what the US is doing in Southeast Asia? Are you prepared for that? So, it's really thinking through these second, third, and fourth order effects and starting to prepare for them. So, that's on the geopolitical side. That's that's one. And the climate crisis hasn't gone away. The climate crisis is is getting worse. And you've got to be thinking through the physical risks of of of the climate crisis. And what are you doing now to prepare for a world that is going to be much hotter and wetter and drier and fierer, if that's a word, you know, 5 years from now. >> Scary. It's scary. You know, it's um I was using this analogy the other day. When you see young people smoking, >> it's because they think they're going to live forever, you know, and it's the same with our planet and no one's really thinking about it beyond is is very, very scary. Yeah, I say and the last one is AI. I I am I am completely frightened by what AI is is going to do to the workforce. >> Steve, I'm I I had a skit with my guys in the office the other day. It's like you're meeting someone for the first time and you type into chat beachy, how should I introduce myself? Okay. Oh. Oh, hi. How are you? And then the other f it's bananas. And we've we've seen it in the movies. We've seen it in the Terminator. It's it's exciting, but it's scary. >> It's scary. And and you know, and a lot of the positive people say, "Oh, well, you know, everyone said, "Oh, the telegraph is going to kill jobs." And it didn't. The telephone's going to kill jobs. And it didn't. An email is going to kill jobs. Uh and it didn't. If anything, they all made us more productive. I said, "Yeah, those things didn't have an IQ of 170." Yeah. Or 200. This is something that world has never dealt with. I mean, I've talked to friends of mine who run companies and I say, you know, what's your prediction? And you know, they say we're going to have 20% fewer jobs. Now, it doesn't mean we're going to fire 20% of the people we have today, but if we are planning on having 10,000 jobs, it's going to be 8,000. If we are having a th000, it's going to be 800. Well, where are those people going to work? And what are those people going to do when they don't have work? And you know, we see protests in Indonesia and in Nepal. I think this is just the beginning. And so, you really have to be thinking through this. And look, the Singapore government is I don't think most other governments are are thinking through what they're going to do to protect their their their their especially their younger citizens. >> It's really tough. I mean, when when you look around the the corner the future, um it's it's I you know, if you think about our grandkids, >> they might be going on dates with robots. No, >> you know, but all all joking aside, that's why I think sports is here to stay. But even music now 50 Cent yesterday they put out an AI song linked to one of his rap songs. You can't really tell the difference. >> Yeah. >> Right. That's that's really terrifying in my mind. Um being based in Asia, you've you've lived in Australia. You >> No, never lived in Australia. Never you were here. >> 23 years here in the US. >> So So what's your world view when you look at things now? Because what I find is quite often when I speak to, you know, I lived in the US for quite a while. when I speak to people in the US that even if they've they've got companies here they still think predominantly from the US looking out and then when I speak to people in Asia the reality is most of us are working with international firms we have a global view and the two are very very different what's what's your take >> no I and and you know I you know before I moved here I would have said pre-Trump of course what before I moved here I said the US is the world's greatest country full stop um now you know you would say I I I still think we can be we aren't right now. Um but we can be the world's uh greatest country. We should be the world's greatest country, but we're not perfect. Um you know, we we've been blessed with a lot of, you know, a lot of different reasons. We we we are uh have that capability to set, you know, help set the world's rules in a way that benefits everybody. We're not perfect. We've done a lot of bad things both internally um and and externally. Um but we've we've lost that right now. Although there's times we can still do it and I hope we get it back. But I didn't recognize that you know what there the rest of the world is a great place too and there's a lot of things we can learn about from the rest of the world. And there's a lot of things that we can pick up from governments and people that I certainly didn't appreciate as as an American and that that I do now. And I had a a friend of mine, you know, when I when I first moved here, and his advice to me, uh, you know, was because like it's nice to be bilingual. If you can be bilingual, be bilingual. That's nice. But what's much more important is to be multicultural. Can you speak to somebody who's Chinese, who's Indian, who's Thai, who's Singaporean, um, and understand what their perspective is and what is that drives them. and that you can then be that person who fits in with them and you know you could fit in in India and fit in China and fit in Thailand, fit in Singapore, fit in the US and and having that worldview being being able to be multicultural is really important. I I think I'm okay at it. I don't think I'm perfect at it. But >> and I probably flip into being the American sometimes. Uh but I I recognize it and I I try to do that and I think that I've changed completely uh from the time I got here till now. My observation is I mean Singapore is just it's evolved so rapidly. I mean the world has in the last 20 years but when I first moved here in 01 after about seven or eight years and it took me that long I learned that yes yes yes was often no, >> right? And then I my job then in Singapore was to bring the nose forward. In Hong Kong I've always said it's very different. You'll know it's a no because you're getting kicked out of the office. The thing that I love about the US and I want you to speak on this because I grew up in the UK. I'm half Irish, half Chinese, Singaporean. Um, the US it's about winning and trying your best. And if you see someone else, if I see you across the street and Steve's doing, I say, "Wow, fair play to Steve. He's he's cracking on. Let me try and do that." In the UK, what I always felt, which was it's slowly changing, was that's not the case. I'd look at you and say, "Ah, that guy's doing." And I'd probably key a car. That was the psychology. That's why I think the US is such an amazing place because there's that can do attitude. Is that what you still think? >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean sure with with Americans I mean I think that that is that is very much uh still there. I mean I think that's that's part of you know our ethos um in in what we've always believed uh about ourselves. And I think there there are certainly uh positives there. There sometimes you have to change. I remember one of the first times I went to Japan uh representing UPS doing doing an aviation negotiation and it was meeting with a pretty senior Japanese official and you know we did small talk for about uh 2 minutes or so and and I like okay well here's you know here's why I think you know we should be you know working together and here's where I think you know UPS can really help you and and he looks at me goes very American [laughter] >> cuz this was supposed to be an hour of small talk you know but I'm not doing an hour I mean just not who we are and who I am. So it's a little we'll play it the American way. Um but you do have to understand you know play to your strengths but understand uh where where you fit in. And I mean I think that I've you know been able to do that and a lot of the writing that I get to do here and or going on television here for you know CNA or the Straits Times or Business Times and whatever it may be is that you know I'm an American who understands Singapore and can explain America to Singapore in a way that Singapore gets it. I mean I think that's kind of the you know where I try and stay in my lane and and do those types of things. >> What do you think is going to happen to universities? Because when I look I've got three kids right? They'll be going to university. What's crazy is maybe 20 years from now, maybe maybe the whole institution's obsolete, you know, and I'm just thinking it's that's the crazy thing. Like you could drop out of uni now and maybe learn more online than you could do being in a university for three or four years. I still want my kids to go to university, but I'm just curious what what's your observation? No. Well, I I you know, I take the very American view which is is different and you know and and a lot of and if you can afford it, of course, right? you know, co going to college. I mean, that's about growing up. I mean, that's it's not about learning. And it it's it's part of it, of course, is is learning, but it's it's, you know, being in a club, being in a fraternity, being in a sorority, um, you know, being part of the judiciary committee or the honor committee or being on the student paper or whatever it is. And it's how you're dealing with people. Now, if you're in a pretty elite school, obviously you're going to be dealing um with people who are all very smart. And I mean, but that's they're going to be from all different backgrounds. They're going to be from different states. They're going to be from different countries. Ideally, they're from different, you know, economic levels. They're, you know, different races, different everything. And that's what the value of of of it is. How do you work with people? How do you how do you build those networks? And to me, that's, you know, really the core it's the core part of of the college. I went I went to a university in the UK and I didn't get any of that and it was rubbish, you know, and that's what I want for my kids. I want my kids to have that cuz I think, you know, you you you learn so much from that process. Um, I've got some rapid fire questions I want to run past you. >> What's the first question you ask a client when you first meet them or a prospective client? >> Oh, I try and figure out maybe if not asking him directly, why is it that we're meeting? I mean, why is it that you would want, you know, what what value, you know, can I bring to you? Like, how can I help you make money? and and if I got to try and figure that out and if I can't answer that question, they probably don't want to hire me. Um, and maybe they just want to, you know, pick my brain and and work that fairly quickly. I guess >> I could pretty quickly I could figure out if this is now, you know, is this something that's going to be serious and that we could actually have a a client relationship. I have so many meetings that aren't about business, but but that would be if it's a client, why is it that they how is it that I can help them make money? That's why you would hire somebody. >> I love that. What's one of the toughest lessons that you've learned as a business owner? Yeah, I don't know that I have which is you know because part of the the certainly as a business owner which is you know what I've done now it my business is very unique because it's it's really you know it's a platform approach uh you know built on my career in government. >> Explain to the audience what you mean by platform approach. Well, I have okay platform approach. I have three different email addresses and four different revenue streams. [laughter] And so it's not out I'm not out to make as much money as I possibly could. And maybe I couldn't make any more than I'm making now, but it it's really what are the different things that I like doing that I enjoy that I I can do, you know, well enough uh at. And so I mean I think I I know I could have done I could have gone in in a different route. I could have gone back into a corporate uh world, but have decided to go this way. Now I now have um you know a a woman uh you know no Amy works for me uh works for me and with me full-time you know and so now we've doubled um and then I have a a woman named Megan who's a senior adviser who's you know really knows the sustainability piece. >> You know you're the only business owner I've ever met that says no no no tough lessons. That's credit to you man. I love it. I could give you a hundred, [laughter] >> but it's a different and maybe I will get tough lessons as as I expand out a bit, but I I hate to say I really >> I love that and but that's also because you know you've got a unique brand and what you do is so different. >> Um what is one underestimated skill you know in leadership and as being a business owner again could you speak to? No, I I mean I think you know understanding your uniqueness and really playing um to that that strength, you know, staying in your lane. Yeah. And and I think if you if you do those things, that's that's where you can, you know, don't pretend you're you're you're what you're not. Don't say you're you're what you're not. You know, you know the cliche, you know, underpromise and overd deliver. I mean, but that definitely is is something you tried to do. I I I think you're you're spot on because I think um the the trust and the reputation that you build, it takes years to build that and you know, we've all seen talented guys in school that only went so far. They're like a a shooting star and they come back down. And I think you have to keep working on that. And you're right, if you stay in your lane, you know, that's not to say that you don't try new things like you've done, I've done, but I completely get that. Um, what's the hardest part about advising leaders on geopolitics? >> I mean, I I think you again, you need to understand where they're coming from. You need to I mean, so it's really, you know, understanding their perspective, understanding what is it that they need and then, you know, being able to bring your unique experience, your unique perspective, uh, to them. Don't tell them how to run their business. I mean, you know, don't you know, these these are really successful, you know, men and women and but if you can explain to them, this is what I'm seeing that you may not be seeing. Um, then that's that is that's going to bring you value. So, how are you, you know, not smarter than they are, but how how are you how are you additive? >> The way that you've just described that because I find a lot of people come wading in. They don't sugarcoat things and then, you know, you're going to put someone's back up. But it in the way that you've just described it's very complimentary and you're adding value hopefully. Right. Hopefully. Yeah. No, but this is but that what you just said there is a master class and how to deliver great information in the right way. But I'm telling you a lot of people can't do it. They go wading in and it's it creates problems. Um what's the singest biggest sorry the single biggest >> blind spot that private equity firms probably have today on sustainability? I I think that they don't think it's material. They they don't think that this is something that is about making money. They they think it's additive. It's a nice to do. And and so, you know, again, if you say, uh, you should have more women on your board and you don't explain why, and then they just won't listen to you. So, it's it's their blind spot is that they don't read realize it's material. and and the blind spot of the people who are working in in sustainability or or ESG is they don't know how the business operates. They don't know how the business makes money. And you have to be able to translate that. You know, I'll go back to, you know, to my UPS days. So when I joined UPS uh out of the government, you know, my boss, it was said to me and the others who joined out of government, you're going to go drive the package truck, you know, for a couple of months and you're going to be out there delivering packages cuz you need to know how we make money because only when you know how we make money, that's when you are going to to be able to advocate for what it is that we need and and why we need it. I had other bosses who, you know, said, "You got to get your hands dirty. you know, you have to really dig into this issue. You have to do the research. You have to talk to people before before you know it. And so that's the blind the blind spot of those who are trying to help the deal teams, you know, the private equity is they don't know how the business makes money. And so that's always one of the first questions I ask if I'm going to start a new project is how do you guys make money? And then I can help them. If I don't know how they make money, then my advice is is going to be could be very well off. >> You got to understand granularly what the business does. I think a lot of companies look look at ESG in sustainability as a theme. It's something they flirt with because they feel it's in vogue, but no one's really talking about it in the way that you are where they're nuts and bolts and it can it can mean something. When you think about ESG sustainability in terms of investment themes and you know, for example, banks, what what could they be thinking a little bit about, you know, how to create a framework around this? Well, well, a couple different things, but if you're thinking about an investment theme on on responsible investing, you want to ask yourself, okay, what are the societal challenges that that we're facing and how can a business uh answer those societal challenges? How can we have an impact on those societal challenges? And so, that is how you can come up um with an investment theme. I mean, one of the ones that that KKR came up with, you know, years ago was there wasn't really safe and health healthy drinking milk in China. Um, there had been the melamine scandal and people weren't trusting the milk. And if if if KKR said, "Well, if we can invest behind a business that is going to provide safe and and healthy drinking milk, then people are going to want to buy that milk." And so, there are ways that you can you have to make sure the supply chain is secure. You have to make sure people can't dump melamine into the milk to trick the test. You need to make sure uh that you're using fewer cows if possible and you're making them more productive because that lowers emissions and lowers feed costs. So all of that goes into it. But the the investment theme there was you saw a societal challenge. There was no safe drinking milk or not enough safe drinking milk in China. How do we address it? you you there's a a lot of those in the climate world right now which is why now you know nuclear energy is making a comeback because that is a solution to a societal challenge is that we don't have enough power we don't have enough renewable power especially with with AI uh coming in that is going to suck up so much energy and so nuclear is is now a investment theme and so you get behind that so that's how you create those themes from having that ESG mentality What are the societal challenges? How do we address them? And how do we address them in the way that minimizes the impact on the environment or workers and and and customers and the like? >> I love that. What what geopolitical risks are most CEOs not paying enough attention to today? >> Yeah. I I mean I think it is the second and third and fourth order effects of of of of Trump 2.0 and and you know just because Donald Trump says something it doesn't make it wrong. I mean, Donald Trump is correct on on certain things and his instincts are in the right direction, I think, on China and and trade between the US and China and what are the trade rules. His his instincts are are correct that for too long the United States really provided global security and we paid for everything and other countries didn't spend uh enough on on defense and and and you know that's changing now. You could say that that the United States wasn't tough enough in certain ways on Israel and on others uh in the Middle East and maybe now that we have this 20point peace plan in Gaza, something will happen. So you can argue that Trump has certain instincts that are correct, but the way he's executing on a lot of them is not correct and we're going to start seeing those second, third, and fourth order effects. And that's people aren't taking that into account yet. What is Southeast Asia going to look like when it has all sorts of new competitors? Uh because the US market is not open to them as it had been before and not open to others. >> So interesting. What do you think is one of the biggest myths about doing business in Asia? >> I'm well it it certainly used to be. I don't know so much anymore, but when I would come out, people would be like, "Oh, you know, I'm American or I'm European and we've been doing this forever and it's just starting up in Asia and it's going to be easy and, you know, we'll just take what we learned in the US and the EU and and and or Australia and we'll apply it here and we'll make a lot of money." No, I mean, that that's not right. And and I don't think people recognized that that that that this is a very different market and just because it's a global best practice isn't isn't going to work here. And then also the complexity of of the market and As you know even even like China if you think that that that China from a government affairs perspective well China's like the US and you know and Beijing is is is Washington and Shanghai uh is New York. You're completely wrong because every province has much more power in China than than the states do in the US. So you're going to make that mistake if you're in China and you know know in here like having an Azan strategy is kind of ridiculous. You need a Vietnam strategy and a Malaysia strategy and an Indonesia strategy and and a Singapore strategy because there isn't an integrated market here. So it is a lot more difficult to to to to have that approach. >> So many nuances and >> and and regulations and laws and governments and and it's all all very different. This is a very difficult place and you can't just take the EU or US mentality and plop it here. I don't think people do that as much anymore, but certainly I think that was the case, you know, a couple decades ago. >> Well, we're seeing, you know, the rise of Asia and it doubledigit growth. Everything moves very quickly here. You know, it's it's uh unless you've lived in Asia, you can't really grasp it. Uh let's do some personal ones. So, what's perhaps one of the biggest most influential books that you've ever read? >> You know, I I knew you were going to ask me that question. God, I hate to say I don't have one, but it's it's it I have a lot of influences, but it's been more people. I I get the influence. >> Give me give me top two or three influences in, you know, on your life or your career, >> you know. I' I've been so fortunate and I I try and do this that the the people who I have worked for have have been mentors to me and and and they were consciously tried to be mentors to me. I mean, go back to college and you know, Professor Sabado, Larry Sabado at the University of Virginia remains a mentor of mine. Um, in government, the the two general counsels I worked for uh at at DOT who I was was the deputy to, you know, Steve Kaplan and Nancy McFaten. I mean, they were very much mentors to me. I mean, they were teachers as much more teachers than than than bosses. I mean, we're partners and and to them. and you know going to to the law firm I worked at in in Washington and to you know being at at public affairs in UPS Ken Melman who created public affairs uh for Karee all of them were mentors in in ways and I learned a lot from them and so that's where I had my learn much more than than than books >> no I love that and good on you for shouting out those guys because it often people often overlook their bosses and and the uh journey that they play >> talk to me a little bit about um some of your personal values in business cuz you know you've been here for a long time. So have I. I think your integrity, your reputation, you know, speak on that. >> I mean like I mean I don't think it's hard. I mean you know what the right thing is, right? And and and do you know you know what that is and >> we I've met a lot of morons in business. You know there I've got a no [ __ ] policy. I'll be very candid with you. But unfortunately in business you do come across them. But I think there are some good people. >> I think they're well I think they're mostly good people but I mean just and and the other thing is you know be honest and I would you know when you know me and back my you know still a very good friend of mine Alan Turley at FedEx I mean UPS and FedEx you know are very much competitors with one another but Allan and I know you don't compete on government affairs. If you got you you know when you go into China you're opening up China for UPS and FedEx. now go let the business people compete with one another once you open at that point >> and and Allan and I and I always had this very we we'd say we will always be 100% honest with one another and if I were going to say you know to Allen I'm not going to work with you on this I would tell him up front look I'm not going to work with you on this is one I got to do on my own and he'd be great you told me go do whatever you want to do and you can say whatever you want about me but you know we're going to work together the 95% of of of the other time so we'd be very upfront and honest with one other always never try to hide you know hide hide anything who is you know somebody who you were going to work with in the past. So I think just like be honest and you know I you know even had a story when I was at uh KKR and um uh Henry Kravis was was coming to Hong Kong and I was setting up a media round table for Henry who's you know this is one of the you know one of the OGs right of of private equity and a friend of mine who is at Reuters uh you know called and said hey can I get a one-on-one with Henry and I said no I said we have no time we're doing the round table but not doing any one-on ones. Um, and he said, "Thank you." And I'm like, "Okay, why?" He said, "Because everybody else would have said to me, let me think about it. Let me get back to you." And, you know, I knew the answer was no. The person knew the answer was no, but they didn't want to deliver me the no. So then I would go to my editor and say, "Well, we don't know if we're going to get a one-on-one." And my editor would come to me every day, "Did you get a word back from KKR?" And he said, "No, I haven't heard back yet." And my life would be miserable. But because you were honest with me and told me no upfront, now I can get on with the rest of my life and my editor won't annoy me. Uh, and so it's just be honest, right? And and deliver the good news. Obviously, that's great and easy. But but deliver the bad news, too. And that's, you know, just that's all you want. >> Steve, I really appreciate you taking the time. You're very generous, you know, and I've I've been following your career on and uh on LinkedIn. I just the funny thing is I just didn't know how you were connected to Glenn and Neil on I don't know how I missed that but that that's the funny thing about LinkedIn and what you see and nowadays if you've got a if you if you're well networked the feed is just it's ridiculous. >> Yeah, it is one of the things that I I have really focused on that has been very helpful. I if you know is is LinkedIn and I really try and when I when I post on LinkedIn which is un now literally two or three times a day because of all the is it that many >> well what the deluge of news that that's coming I mean I wake up this morning and you know got 100% tariffs from Trump on on China and then you know did radio so now I got to post a story out of radio and I got an interview with the South China Morning Post that maybe I'll be in their story and I'll probably post that you know it's it's crazy how much news there is right now in in in my world, but I try and be substantive and and say, "Okay, here's here's a point that that that I put out." Yeah. All right. Some people might think I'm being a little self-promotional, and I'm not going to argue with them. Um, but I try and be substantive while I'm being at least uh self-promotional. That's what we have to do. >> If if just just one last thing, because I am curious because a lot of the people that, you know, come to you and I, they ask about advice and not just for them, sometimes for their their children as they're growing up. What piece of advice would you give to your younger self, you know, coming out of university? >> Well, I mean, what I've learned looking back on what I did accidentally was I mean, the advice I give is make yourself unique, right? The more unique you are, the more opportunity you'll get. My career that I had is not replicable now because there's no way they're sending somebody to Asia who never had been to Asia literally, but maybe once or twice to become the Asia expert that. So, you can't do what I did. I mean, I got the right place at the right time, but I put myself in the right place at the right time. I recognize that. Uh, but it it's it's you got to make yourself unique and, you know, you've got to take chances. Uh, so I would say, you know, bet on yourself and looking back, I can't argue with with where I am, but my view was, okay, I have to go to college and I have to go to law school, I got to go work in a law firm. Um, and I did all that and I would have rather, you know, in looking back now and certainly my younger son who's working in Fiji, right, is getting right and getting this advice. Go do, you know, go go do something you'll never do again. When you're young and you've got, you know, you got no bills, you got no responsibility. >> Is he on the main, is he on the main island? >> Yeah. Yeah, he's in Suva. Uh, he's in the capital. Uh, working for Amcham Fiji. So, he's doing that for 5 months and then he'll go Exactly. >> Have you gone to see him there yet? you know, I saw him once and we're going to go I'll meet him again one more time and you know, I give speeches when when when I go there, so do a little bit of work, but I get a chance to to to see what he's doing. But yeah, get those, you know, experiencees is is what matters. And get those experiences and don't worry about money. If you if you're worried about money, all right, go into the money business and and that's going to be your life. But but if you know, the money will come eventually if that's what you want. But get those experiences while you're young. I got really lucky because I was working on a presidential campaign, you know, right out of right out of high school, right out of law school and I was working, you know, on conventions while I was in college. So, I was doing that a bit, but I think I could have done a lot more. >> Steve, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. >> No, no, thank you. It's been great. >> I've enjoyed the chat. Me, too. Cheers. [music]

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