#1. With Neil Bullock: World Best Flavoured Gin, Diverse Business Ventures

[Applause] [Music] hey guys welcome to today's podcast I am honored to be speaking with um one of my closest friends the first person I ever met in Singapore back in 2001 Mr Neil bulock Neil has worked in Glasgow London Oman Dubai Singapore Sydney Hong Kong and now is based just outside of Adelaide in the wine region of barasa valley where he very successfully runs a gin Distillery and a whiskey Distillery last month they won the very prestigious best gin flavored bottle in the world which is truly amazing given that there were 900 applicants and I'm really proud to have a chat with him today as he looks to bring his business to Asia specifically Singapore I hope you enjoy the chat as much as I did Cheers I just I I just think cuz if you think about growing up in the UK it's ingrained Friday afternoon you're going for drinks yeah it's that wind down before the weekend you look forward to that moment all week yeah I love it yeah the other thing that we do is we do Friday Friday wind ups and GS and we take them pretty seriously we we've written scripts and like how are we going to get this guy it was pretty cool it very funny right so listen we've known each other for a long time we have so people won't know this but Neil is the very first person I ever met in Singapore and U we've never we've never stopped talking since no that's absolutely right what was your memory of me when when we first met do you remember cuz my memory is very clear because I was new and you were arriving that morning after coming back from your granny's funeral my memory wasn't really of us in the office I think the first memory was that evening when we were down on Bo key it was Boi and I think it became Clark key I'm I'm sure it probably did it usually did it was a it was a Thursday night I remember cuz um I I was here on a job interview and no one else wanted to go out and everyone was a bit boring and and I just thought no come on yeah you know I think we clicked straight away it was such an easy yeah right let's go out and a few drinks have some fun well you you were the one that persuaded me to stay the weekend cuz you said I remember you said uh cuz I think I was going to go back on Friday and you said well you know if you can extend do you want to go weight boarding and I didn't even know what that was that's right yeah you were staying in club Street weren't you I think I was staying in the company Apartment Company apartment yeah and um think about how that you know for me back then coming from London you know if you you got a dishwash you're doing well and here was like they're going to put you up in the company apartment it was so close to you know it wasn't an hour commute like I had in London and it was like sign me up I'm I'm coming yeah it's a different world I think everyone comes here and sees that and goes oh wow it was brilliant I want part of that but when you walk around now having been gone for all these years does it look very different parts look very different but a lot of it's a lot of it's the same it's a lot smarter here now I think yeah um but there's still those pockets of of character around the place Boat Key hasn't changed in the slightest yeah um I mean that's what I love about Hong Kong though because you you it's still visceral do you know what I mean and I like the parts of Singapore that I like that too yeah but like where we went last night like had you laying all around there it's there's a personality there's so much character and personality to that because it's it's cultural melting pots that's that's a different cultural environment but everyone's fits in together the Lebanese and North Indian that was delicious restaurant yeah you know two thing those two things together very naturally here yeah and I think that's the beauty of Singapore but they call it in Singapore rojack which is mixed so like I'm rojack Tara's rojack the kids are and that would become more and more a thing as as you have all those different cultures living here so let's practice where did you grow up in the UK which part of the UK so I moved all over the UK I was initially born in in in crew in chesher why cuz CU of dad's work or that's that's where my family are from okay um and then we moved because of my dad's work what did Dad do so he was in engineering was a draftsman initially for Rolls-Royce oh really and then he went to work for a company called Fleet guard that were in filters for so was he doing Rolls-Royce engines for airplanes or the the car cars okay so Rolls-Royce cars were all made in uh in crew and back then I think it was one of the biggest Employers in crew that and the the railways I think Rolls-Royce are in Singapore now I'm sure check I think as in the the the engine building I've got to double check that but I'm sure and then what happened and then yeah he he moved from there and we moved around from um to Birmingham to Sol Hall which is where I did my secondary school we lived in um Darlington hington in County Durham primary school was up there how many schools did you go to before like a levels I would have gone to one two four okay four schools in total okay and then what did you where did you do a levels then where yeah I did that in Sol Hall just south of Birmingham and what did you study I've never asked you this actually at Uni yeah no at a levels did you do a level I did uh what did I do I did design okay um was it design and Technology it was design and techn I love that yeah I love that I never I should have done it I had ideas of going into industrial design back at that point well it's funny cuz your daughter wants to become an architect right you think about as the yeah it's that creative element that creative Outlet I just couldn't draw well enough I could draw well enough in second grade of senior school but then as it gets more serious you realize you're not you can't draw well enough so after that so so design what was the other you do two uh three you um I did three I'm trying to think what I did God I can't even remember you're getting old you can't remember I can't remember what I did did geography English I think geography might have been one of them uh I did physics oh really you can't I didn't like that that wasn't my thing I think anything that's math based you know in physics you you either do well or poorly business studies was it actually you that wasn't an a level where I went okay y that was that was an a level for us all right so then what I was fascinated because Edinburgh is a great uni glasg was it Glasgow I thought you were in edinb noas okay how well do we know each other not that well I think to be honest all all these conversations that we've had were probably very drunken lights out so you but you did do a degree in a masters back back to back right yeah so I went into the Scottish system in Glasgow and it's a it's a slightly different way of doing things I like that yeah it's it was an MA it's a masters from the start you can stop after three years and come out with a ba or you can continue on to do the natural last year which gives you an what did you do the degree in management studies okay oh we both did management yeah yeah isn't that funny I don't know if I I didn't learn a lot of uni I learned how to work at Uni I could have worked harder at school and come out with better grades but I didn't okay but at Uni I think when the pressure was off and it's all on you yeah I think I I found a subject matter I was interested in and naturally worked harder and came out with a better result did you enjoy living there I loved it yeah Scotland's a great place University was one of the best years of your life it wasn't for me unfortunately but you loved it yeah absolutely loved it did you was it is on campus or or in Halls for the first year yeah which is great you get to meet all sort of different people and you carry those friendships right through but then I think everybody naturally selects a small group of people that decide they want to live with uh and there was four of us who moved out in second year and we stayed in the same place right the way through brilliant two doctors a mathematician and me wow two doctors two doctors yeah and a mathematician yeah and what does he when you say math is he teaching math or he's working he's now a chief investment officer um for a company in Oxford wow what I love about those friendships though they you know no one gives a [ __ ] you know where you're from what you're doing it's just and you're friends nobody's done anything at that point everyone's just been through school that was it that's true but you I mean the doctors you saw how hard they had to work yeah and the mathematician big time and then what happened after that after you finished your Masters did you so finished my masters um decided that I wanted to stay on in in Glasgow obviously you developed friendships um I met a lot of guys that lived in in Glasgow you didn't mind the cold no not at all I mean you know what it's like when you're living in an environment yeah you get used to it Singapore's very hot yeah um I was sitting in air conditioning today and two or three people came in and said right can we move outside cuz it's too cold in here yeah that's the difference they're accustomed to it I'm not very true um so no I love Glasgow and went on to work for Clyde stale bank went for a career in in finance yeah but did you know that's what how did that come out that's what I'm curious that's been a discuss all the way through and I think that was doing the management degree there there was an element of that was kind of naturally where it none of my teachers lectur said anything like that and there was literally no counseling guidance so I'm just curious no there was no counseling guidance um I don't know I don't know how it happened but there was a there was an opportunity to go into cdale bank as a a graduate trainee but that was within their Retail Bank okay and I'd already got a job with Clydesdale and I was working in their corporate Investment Services which is basically the back office op Equity operations you could call it yeah um for for uh trusts and funds okay um Fidelity was one of their biggest clients um and I was enjoying that and I got on well with everyone there so of course being me decided to swim against the tide and decided that we get me on the graduate program but not in the retail bank where everyone else was doing it but I should do it in corporate Investment Services okay um so got that through um oh you did we did get that through wow uh and I was got towards the end of that and I'd made some very good friends from Dubai and and Sultan of Oman at Uni is that how that came about so fared and W I met him at your wedding yes yeah so fared had gone back into G back to Middle East yeah a great guy great guy um and at that time the stock markets in in musket in particular were going crazy um everyone was leveraging and and investing in the market and making money so it was it was just a very very busy time for them over there yeah and they needed Equity operations experience not that I had a huge amount so what but so he called you up and said he called me up and said hey look there's a job going with this broker how old were you like 22 23 23 yeah but something like that yeah yeah he said there's a job going with this broker operations manager do you want to fly over and have a chat with these guys flew over had a chat you land in a country like that it's unlike anywhere you've ever been before yeah it's like you're watching an Indiana Jones movie right it's in it was incredible and you you're be you're with a local so they know their way around you're being picked up by their friends you're being welcomed and you're seeing things that normal tourists wouldn't see or be able to access so of course I was instantly hooked bang and yeah I left that accepting a job and but you know when you told people because um for me when I told people I'm I'm going over to Singapore for an interview no one really believed me and when I said I'm going and I'm not I'm probably never coming back no one believed me because not many people especially at that age did that right no no did you know I didn't know anyone that had moved abroad no um I think the people that I was hanging around with at that point in time they knew forid from okay his days at Uni so so going across to see him perhaps wasn't too yeah much of a revelation but um moving over there that definitely caused a few what what Mom and Dad say excited for it they they they knew that yeah I think I had that you've got that the gene in me yeah 100% And and they and initially it was only for three years okay that becomes a theme by the way but okay initially it was only for for three years and I thought okay I'm going away for 3 years and I'm coming back to the UK and this is the perfect time to do it of course things didn't quite work out that way but so what happened tell us moved over there fell in love with loved it had the best time ever yeah uh and then things just take their natural course HSBC got involved in the business that I was in I worked with the stock exchange for a short period um you get to know people so opportunities present themselves ended up in Dubai working for HSBC met a great group of of friends uh within that office how long were you in Oman then probably two years something like that okay um and is that where your love for like camping and you know four-wheel driving started well that no had that before cuz mountain biking yeah School uni at Uni the mathematician used to go ice climbing so oh really he'd drag us out with tents and we'd be camping at you know minus5 and some Mountain somewhere um I wasn't into the ice climbing bit but going up into the Wilderness and enjoying the outdoors something that's that's full on that's yeah yeah yeah W yeah but my mind offered opportunities to do that in a completely different environment travel into the desert for the weekends and camp and it was just amazing absolutely amazing so the thing that I always um remember about you back then and me and you is we we were we were not I wouldn't say wild in the sense we were wild but we we wanted Adventure cuz I remember you came up to me and it was a long weekend and I still wasn't familiar with the the local holidays and you said you want to go away for the weekend I said yeah absolutely and um where should we go and we kind of did that and we pointed on the map and it was like okay we're going to Samara we're going to Madan that was that was a trip that was an incredible trip that really was I mean that that was one that sticks in the memory the thing about I haven't been back since but the thing about that place was it felt untouched it was completely untouched it was unlike anywhere else it was um I mean Madan was what it was had what it needed for its people to operate yeah and then we do you remember that ferry ride where we were throwing coins in and those boys ding off the side well that was that was Lake TOA that was Lake TOA yeah which is what a 4-Hour drive from I remember the 4-Hour drive from Madan to Lake TOA you fell asleep and I had to contest with traffic two lanes of traffic there was two lanes yet there was four lanes of traffic going that way and four lanes of traffic coming this way you wouldn't let me drive because I didn't have my driver license with me was well I'm I'm actually quite glad but you you were quite stressed out on that Journey that was that was probably one of the most stressful drives of my life i' never seen anything like it and it was at night I remember it was at night yeah and um the other thing that I remember was we we rented those Mo mopeds but what I loved was when we dived into lober it was so Crystal Clear but it was dark and we saw Boulders the size of houses and it was so deep that there were currents there right yeah that was just an incredible space what a trip that was uh and um I remember though there were a lot of mozzies and we were sleeping in our tents just basically that much showing of our eyes mouth so we could breathe do you remember that yeah yeah and cooking cooking in the in the hotel cooking in hotel Carolina smash smash yeah that's was it Carolina or California car Hotel Carolina was that was it I think yeah Oh Carolina yeah it was that was brilliant it was all right so then Dubai then and then you know Middle East must have had a huge impact on you massive impact but I think it was the lifestyle of the Middle East as an expatriate yeah which was incredible in Oman it was the lifestyle as an expatriate but I had one foot in The Expatriate world and probably a bigger foot in in the local scene because my friends are all local yeah um from the connection with the omanis are the most wonderful people they're the most warm friendly people go out you know you you could turn up in a village in the middle of mountains and they'll bring out tea and dates and that you you've just turned up rocked up in their Village well well you know I'm kind of embarrassed it took me so long to get there when you put me on to it but it was Tara my wife's favorite trip arguably of all the trips we've been on because there was there's everything you know you're by the ocean it's stunning with a mountain rock formation behind you y um and and then you know a couple of hours drives you're you're in the other side you're in the desert it's it's crazy it's stunning yeah you know what was funny we were we were doing a drive and there was this lady because I had arranged for us to stay it's like an Arabian Nights themed uh tent and I booked it so it was but it was glamping because there was a shower on site and this that and the other and I I said look I want to enter the camp via uh camels I want this to be something we never forget anyway so we had to drop this other group off and these two cars were going too slow I felt never having driven in the desert before but i' done a little bit of research she she had taken the air out of our tires and she was flying and I thought not staying with her I'm so I overtook them and they weren't too happy and they both got stuck they both got stuck and it was just because there's a skill to driving on the sand right there is a skill everybody gets stuck yeah it was like and she was going like the clappers and I thought wow so that that yeah what a what a place so how old were you when you left and came to Singapore I lose track of dates and years it just merges into I Met You in 01 so you would have been there maybe late 2000 early I got to Aman in '96 and I would have been I would have been what I don't know 22 23 yeah something like that so this threeyear Revelation is that you you've done three years in each place is that what you going to say no no that I thought I was going to only stay for three years and then the move to Hong Kong this was a yes I well let's pack it chronologically so Dubai how did Singapore come up um Singapore came up accidentally as it always does right um my time out with HSBC had come to an end yeah their decision um and I was looking for another opportunity I had two options I could stay in Du buy and pick something else up in Dubai um or see what else is out there I wasn't ready to go back to the UK at that point in time but I had a mate who was in Singapore Ian Ian Ian um he's a great guy so it seemed the natural thing to go to singap from from University or so he wasn't at my uni but he was he'd gone to school with guys that i' had been on my course at Uni and we would we'd all hung out together yeah so that was the group that I'd met that by the way I had forgotten until I found that video clip we all went to bintan and stayed at I think Nana together we did yeah we did yeah y okay so so did you have a gig when you got it no no didn't have a gig when I got here that that by the way why I think that's important to say because a lot of people are so uh cautious I've got to have a gig I've got to know and and the gentleman I was speak to earlier he arrived in Singapore he had a gig but he' never been here before yeah right and and so you got here yeah and then what happened you started beating down doors or I think there was I don't actually remember how this came about I believe there was an ad because I remember talking to Michael page first in the newspapers yeah that's that I'm telling you that's far more powerful than online cuz you sat on the train and there's three or four and that's how I saw it it brings your attention Ian was here he was working for Cap Gemini he had a great life here and he was loving it um and he said look you should move over saw this ad I remember talking to Michael Paige um and then this other opport came up actually that that was a conversation in a bar it might well have been Harry's it was Harry's or Penny's back yeah you know you know it was or maybe Molly's this Robertson smart oh yes came up they came up they said oh you should talk to us so hold on you were there in the bar with Michael page no I'd had an interview at Michael page offices and then we were in this bar okay and we were chatting to people and the must have been somebody from Robertson smart it was probably Roger to be fair yeah um and they said just come talk to talk to us yeah um cuz I I was coming from a banking World by by the way I've just for what was the name of the guy um that worked for bearings Nick Nick Leon that's where he hung out that's where he hung out and this was just what was Nick Leon that was what it was just after that as in it was yeah cuz yeah okay so um that shows you how far we go back right yes exactly um yeah so I spoke to Robinson smart I remember shaki taking us down to the Cricket Club yeah um probably on a Friday night and they made an offer and at that point time did you even know what recruitment was at that time was it no not really cuz with Michael page you were talking to him about other jobs not about joining them yeah right okay yeah no no no sorry I was talking to Michael page about becoming a recruiter oh because there was a job there that utilized my experience in banking yeah and at that point I was kind of a little bit over back office operations in banking yeah um you knew what you were going to be doing at a certain time every day all the days were the same and I needed more variety yeah so the recruitment sounded interesting um anyway accepted the role with with Robertson smart and Shi myself over here amazing did you um because the thing about the thing about recruitment is most people fall into it right um but I I think um in in banking anyway the best Consultants have historically come from banking because they UND they understood it you've got to understand the industry you're working in and whether you learn that yeah by recruiting in it for a long time or whether you have that knowledge when you come in there's two routs yeah but you've certainly more credible when you can talk to clients for sure at their level yeah around their IND so how was the switch from doing what you were doing to becoming a Salesman well it took a little while um you didn't have the recruitment all the sales skills at that point but you had the industry knowledge so that's why I started out doing banking operations yeah but there just wasn't that many opportunities at the right level but when I met you I thought you were doing Telco or fintech already Robertson smart put you through they were trying to find your desk yeah um yes and the desk depended on where the opportunities were and it just happened that the opportunities came up in banking tich okay and all of a sudden that was a world that I could focus on and there was good opportunity uh it was a world I understood so it just made sense so fell into that area but developed that desk and it became a successful desk yeah for sure um well when you when you left Kush took over it Y and he he was very lucky cuz he walked straight into business y it was a warm desk yeah and um my memory was you and I were out at some party we didn't really know the people and you told me that night that you were leaving you hadn't resigned yet and I was gutted I just thought you know you were joining my smart stream and I just thought oh I'm not going to see you anymore cuz I remember you saying there's going to be a fair amount of travel and yeah well smart stream was a great opportunity I went into the smart stream offices to take a job correct me if I'm wrong were they were your clients they were my clients and they were describing this job description to me and you said and I was sat there listening to this I got towards the end of that conversation I said to them you know what I've got some that sounds like me is that what you said just like that and and they said oh okay are you interested I said absolutely yeah they said right well we won't go any further with this this hire at this point in time come in again okay and we'll have go through the formal interview process and see where go was this the hiring management team or the HR team there was no HR team back then it was the hiring manager so that's what I love about those smaller setups yeah you're talking to people who make the decisions yeah it's real um so yeah that rest is history I remember you calling me um on New Year's Eve from New York I think it was New Year's Eve one night shortly after you were working with them and uh I was so envious like I wanted to get on a plane and come and cuz you said I'm in New York I'm having the best time right and uh living the life so how was that so then because that's the thing you've had different chapters of your career that's what makes you so interesting you've evolved you've adapted you've pivoted and that takes a lot of Courage up until that point they all had the link with banking Tech back office operations Equity operations were you sales or pre-sales I was pre-sales okay so I was the guy that would go in with the the salesman into a pro prospective clients I almost can't imagine you being pre-sales cuz cuz you were destined to do sales pre-sales is still sales the pre-sales guy is the person that creates the relationship with the client yeah and the relationship with the client teams in explaining what the software can do and how it can benefit and improve how they're currently doing things yeah so you create those relationships with those people and ultimately it's those users that influen the decision on where what software they're going to adopt in the future yeah so it's a critical role in in pre-sales it's very much relationship sales who were their major competitors firms like myces and sard myis um you know Jason sandry's dad worked for my for like 40 years or something crazy really period of time he was yeah and that's how Jason came to Singapore cuz his dad was here working for them oh right yeah so he's in a regional sales role so and then how long were you with smart stream for um I was with smart stream probably probably three years again just over maybe and when how long before you you w pre-sales the whole time right so I was pre-sales here and I travel all over Asia and then I was started traveling to Australia because there were some big deals that we were trying to secure with CBA and A&Z in Australia yeah uh and I was spending more and more time in Australia um and I think I put my hand up and said hey look spend spending a lot of time down here and you like Sydney right yeah I love how can you not like it what a city uh so I moved down there they they said right let's let's move you down there I moved down there and then transitioned into sales so the thing is is is like most people when they're thinking about moving abroad they they think about it for so long and you've done it so many times I just want to understand your thought process so the opportunity comes up it's probably within a few weeks you said right yeah let's go yeah the opportunities present themselves yeah and then you've got an option sliding doors right you take it or you don't yeah and it's not that big a deal have you seen that movie sliding doors with absolutely yeah I love that by the by the way there's a there's a bit where they go to a gelato shop and it's just off the uh Edge wear Road and my that funny enough that's where my dad always took us on a Sunday cuz he loved his Italian ice cream but anyway so okay and then Sydney um with smart stream yeah okay TR positioned into sales in Sydney yeah and then uh so hold on when I lived with you oh you were still you were still with smart Street yeah so what happened was I moved back here i' done a short stin back in the UK and I was skin I had no money and you were very kind to to let me stay with you rentree I did back pay you um and you had an amazing apartment how did you find that it was so there were I think there were 14 floors and each floor had its own apartment yeah and it had just an amazing view and it it was and and there's no wonder they knock that building down because they they didn't utilize the space that well no it was it was very rare for Singapore to have that kind of apartment like that oh it was beautiful and it was perfectly situated I reckon and it was it was a great great apartment I just didn't spend enough time there because that I was in Japan and all over the place well I I was paying you $1,000 a month for the room and I basically had the whole apartment to myself most of the time you had the cheapest rent in Singapore yeah it was brilliant you know um so all right so let's unpack that so Sydney you're there you're in the job what's what's your role now you're looking after Australia specifically or Asia plus Australia no it then became Australia okay i' moved to Australia so it became A&Z and that was Australia New Zealand um transitioned into a sales role did you uh uh travel to New Zealand for work yep and Carl was already there uh yes he was y okay yep okay yeah and then and then so you're there and then uh what happened after that cuz Hong Kong wasn't that far around the corner how many years you in Australia for so I was in Australia for um well the first time around probably would have been getting on for six years I reckon um was maybe a bit less ibe a bit less okay cuz I I worked with smart stream and then I left smartstream and went into recruitment again yeah so what happened that recruitment is a funny thing it's got this draw it pulls people back in sometimes it has it it has but again it made sense because I've been working with smartstream I had that banking tech knowledge I knew the industry I knew the players um I already had the roller decks yeah um so it was easy to go into ambition and again in ambition I started out that desk from scratch they they weren't doing that space before yeah um and we successfully built a desk then a team um and it was going very very well and they said well let's repeat this in Hong Kong um would you like to move to Hong Kong yeah and of course did you spend any time in Hong Kong that at that point no what a place mate I love that place I'd been up there for the sevens yeah okay so that was you you were already hooked then that was my experience of Hong Kong but it it was an opportune time to move okay so I forgot you were with ambition how long were you with them for quite a few years right yeah yeah ambition was good it was a great company back then yeah yeah the two owners were fantastic heavily involved in the business had a great boss there everyone was very encouraging and I had the freedom to operate because they didn't have anyone else on that desk I was building it from scratch yeah they let you run with the ball they just they just let me run with it and build it up and then um you decided I want to go and do this for myself I got into Hong Kong and was building from scr scratch again but now I didn't necessarily know the players in Hong Kong so I had to really start from scratch yeah um and there was a little bit more resistance in Hong Kong from the management in Hong Kong they didn't necessarily believe in this space because they hadn't seen it it wasn't quite the same as Sydney where there was a lot of freedom um and that was where I said well hang on a minute shouldn't I be doing this for myself uh and I was lucky because my partner was working with uh Leman Brothers yeah um so that gave us the opportunity Visa wise to take that step yeah she was earning very well so you you had to be a like a is it a PR or no you just you needed to be you could be a partner Visa whatever because um dependence Visa or something but there was no there was no great overheads you know there was there was no kids at that point and so if I was ever going to go out on my own with minimal risk it was it was then so when you started thinking it to resigning what was the time frame a couple of months yeah because you know I I I often speak to people and I think where you and I are different a lot of people that I know that went into recruitment that own their own firms did so because they lost their job and they they you know maybe I'll try this but I think with you and I it was something that we we coveted we wanted to do I wanted to do it what push me over the age was I had a book and it was about waterstones bookshops okay and the title in there was swimming against the tide okay you up as you said earlier well exactly but working with ambition in in Hong Kong I was swimming against the tide and it doesn't make any sense yeah so you you think well hang on okay this is the natural thing to do yeah and it makes it an easy decision well well your job's hard enough to crack down the market right if if you're swimming against your bosses wish is and they're making it harder for you to achieve what you're trying to achieve so when you when you tended your resignation did you tell them what you were going to do or um I think they knew yeah I think they knew what I was going to do and I brought some people in and begun to build a team there there was one guy in particular who knew exactly what I was going to do uh he was a Korean guy um he was your first hire was he yeah maybe first or second okay um he actually ended end up doing exactly the same thing he went on his own and we became quite Fierce competitors oh really um in a friendly way or not really oh semi um yeah so I I remember finding an office on Wellington Street and lucky building was that the place that you were in the same building the whole time it was because of you that I I moved my office in opposite cuz I I didn't have enough critical mass at own office yeah um but I was always I loved your setup right because and you had a great Tech roll out cuz you all had flat screens and and the way it was all integrated and I just cuz I've always worked out a serviced offices cuz Singapore doesn't have buildings like that you have to rent out maybe 1,500 square foot cuz you need boardroom meeting room but you were decked out really nicely yeah yeah we were lucky as we we moved into an office that was had had been renovated it was already there it set up we just it wasn't difficult to make when you moved out do you have to put it back to Bare Bones y yeah yeah but when I moved out we'd been bought by Talent International yeah so let's let's hear about all all that Journey cuz I I'm so C cuz listen we know each other really well but I want to know like when you started day one you know what were you doing right day day one was literally going out and generating business yeah we was it just you on day one it was just me day one um I quickly brought other people into the business um Sterling search was born that was the name of the business and I knew exactly what what we were going to you know there's a lot connectivity cuz I my the the road that I lived in Westport was Sterling Sterling Drive it's it's a great name yeah um and yeah we we we built a team that team turned over a little bit until we we got a really solid base brought in some very good people and then really began to get some wins on the board cement our name with our clients we were very genuine we weren't Cowboy recruiters we weren't database recruiters we were using executive Search techniques yeah in what would traditionally be database type roles or be at the more senior level um and we grew from that into the very senior roles because we we'd established our credibility were your clients historically were were they International Players JP Morgan was one of our biggest clients clsa was our biggest client uh UBS so yeah it was definitely those tier one investment Banks but what we what we stried to do with JP Morgan was was create a very very strong relationship with their hiring managers with their HR team um which is what we did so work naturally flowed our way yeah it worked for them it worked for us things have changed a little bit now how things are done but back then it it it worked really really well um and yeah we were able to build the business off the back of that I find I find um I mean like you and I are old school we're all about long-term Partnerships and developing relationships and I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he wanted to go and work in Hong Kong or Singapore he from London and I said well look if you don't have any contacts just come over like you and I went for a walk last night we walked into a bar and you bumped into someone from Australia and you know you stay have a few drinks someone connects you game on exactly EXA but people just won't do that I literally can go out in Hong Kong and in theory not know anyone and by the end of that night I'll know a dozen people it's such a small concentrated environment yeah that square mile and people people don't understand that in London or other places cuz they're much much bigger yeah whereas everything is focused and concentrated like Boat Key that area yeah all those offices around that area everyone is going to be there and you're going to bump into somebody and it invariably happens I love it I love it so then when you started working did you um because what I did was I sat down and I had two sets of goals I had my personal goals as a personal consultant and then I had the managerial goals and I kind of cuz you know a lot of guys when they set up their own firm their goal is not to be a consultant um and I thought well I don't have that privilege or luxury anyway but what did you do did you plan it out strategically or was it very organic no it's very organic okay everything I've done is very organic yeah um yeah yeah well I think listen that works for you right I think for me I'm I'm a little bit different um CU I I look at things and I think let me try and do that uh and then I've had to correct but I think you've been in the right place right time it it works to a point it's not to say right place right time it's taking opportunities when you see them yeah that's that's the difference it's not waiting for them yeah it's seeing it creating it so that's another part of my life that noise in the background that's a fire that's currently happening in the brosser if I was in the brusser I'll be jumping in the car to go to the fire station right now just bring it to Neil but I love that but I love all this is everything so that's a grass fire well for the audience that don't know you are a parttime I'm a volunteer firefighter ining country fire service in South Australia Afters can you WhatsApp me a couple of the pictures that you show yesterday and I'll show them it was that we'll come back to that later because I I love that um now what I wanted to ask you is so I I've been in recruitment for 29 years right which is ridiculous yeah you know 46 I did it throughout college and Union you know fulltime and the one thing that staggers me is the lack of training that people do and and I think the the reality is that most companies bigger companies they try and give some training but I've always not understood how an individual who's in an industry you know if you're a lawyer you you you've got to study law if you're an accountant you study accountancy and in recruitment no one does it I and I think you be it's sales you know if it's the industry that you're in but most people only do one or the other they won't they won't do the sales training and the knowledge for example in technology or for me in private ranking what was your journey it should be the sales training it should be the industry knowledge and then it should be how to operate yeah how do you talk to these people what are the correct ways to to to dress simple things like that yeah um but you know for for me you know like um whenever I say this you get embarrassed you don't life I just think I've always thought you're very charismatic you hold the room and and I think one of the things that you know what you've shared with me about your life story that in itself is magnetic because you can talk to somebody about everything you know like you've lived in all these different you can connect the darts if someone starts talking about Islam and and like we went last night we were Sat by the the mosque right and and the call to prayer came on we said that's lovely right and it's just it brings a smarty face because when I was living in the Middle East the mosque was literally just up the street and you'd hear that regularly well every day several times a day and it just it gives you a you know it takes you back but going back to this timing thing so I I remember my brother got an opportunity um you know like you said yesterday at some point nearly everyone's worked for HSBC yes he he did and he got an opportunity to potentially go to San Francisco or Bahrain and um he didn't have the cash at the time to go and check out Bahrain I said well you know Bahrain very specifically you might want to go to and check out um but if if not i' just get on a plane and go to San Francisco I mean I wouldn't even think about it based on what I knew is his person to be honestly you could have said yes to either of those and been absolutely safe Bahrain is a amazing great place to live very good friend of mine live there um but the thing is he he he didn't go and I I've known so many people that don't go and and look nothing wrong with it but then they never leave those opportunities are for some people they're not for others it's just but but I just think if you you know we've we've got kids right and one one of the things that I I want to Advocate to them is go enjoy it try wherever you want to go and and that's the wonderful thing with traveling you get to see different parts of the world yes do you know what I mean and then with the kids it's opening their eyes and showing them what's out there yeah and then allowing them to create their own Journey yeah that their genes our genes are in them yeah they'll have that adventurous jeans yeah for sure um and they want to do those things naturally so you know like in Hong Kong the thing about Hong Kong visa Singapore so it took me I always say this it literally took me seven years in Singapore to learn yes yes is actually no right right and in what I love about Hong Kong is you know it's to know cuz they're going to kick you out the room and I love it and it's just it's business and uh but did you enjoy your time there I loved Hong Kong yeah I loved again it was a Melting Pot um not quite the same way as Singapore is but it was a wonderful place to live it's an xat lifestyle yeah um we lived in an area Discovery Bay on on lanto island was just a a 40-minute fairy ride from Central um what's funny is one of your best mates there will was was my old colleague right and uh you know it's a small world it's a small world it's a small world but but that's why I think you who you are as a person your character your integrity your name it's everything with our friends in in Discovery Bay were Americans South Africans you name it it was an absolute Melting Pot yeah um and everyone's got similar backgrounds we're all living in the same place you know you can walk to each other's houses it it was just a wonderful place to live well well you know we've got a lot of things in common we're both very different in some ways but you're you're an outdoor guy right you love Adventure tell me about the kind of sports you played rugby at school I know you were you was a lifeguard yeah a little bit of rugby water polo lifeguarding was I can imagine you in a pair of Speedos oh absolutely I used to be able to rock a pair of speed I can't now who can at our age but what what about um what was the weather like playing you know water polo back in water polo was University and and school and University so the weather was great cuz it was all indoors okay okay and um but what was your first love sports was cuz you've everything you do you go down a rabbit hole be it mountain biking boxing my regret is is not playing rugby properly at school and focusing more on swimming yeah um I think I could have made a great scrum half but we'll never know um but I like to dabble in a few different things which I spose is that's good though it's good but that's that's what I was telling you about advising Kaden about you know when he chooses what he what he wants to do because like for example he goes I think you know he's got a fantastic physique and he I think he could easily be a fitness model right um and he he's never touched any weights and I he said he wants to start doing some weights and I said no mate hold off you know and if you do start doing some resistance some sort of weight training we need to really think about cuz it completely changed my my physique in terms of my ability to move and speed right and that that's why I was kind of alluding to that yesterday because if he wants to continue boxing it's got to everything's got to be built around that yeah AB what I mean absolutely yeah so of all the things that you've done which one do you think you you kind of Lov the the most at the time sportswise yeah was it was it biking was it boxing um it was probably biking because I did it for a longer period mountain biking and that ability to get out in the yeah you're outside enjoying it yeah and it's uh you've got to focus on where that front wheel's going and that's what you've got to focus solely on and you can't think about anything else really you know that pack rafting thing I was telling you is designed specifically for that yeah so imagine if we were in New Zealand we've got the bikes and we we need to check the the routes first but the whole thing is you get to a river and you you can't cross you can't whatever you put the bike on top of the pat R and you're off and you're I I just think that's I mean like you can whatever you want whereever you want get to places you can't otherwise get to it's it's amazing yeah you know what I mean by the way that trip the reason why they don't do that is because most of it you can't ride cuz I was thinking rather than a 22k hike yeah and then easy right but then then I saw the mud that guy was trenching through if you're waiting through mud in the edge of lakes yeah forget that so biking was it was it yeah biking biking was great um and that started at school um but specifically the boxing was something else that what what what was the was it white Coler got you hooked or no it wasn't it was it was an Irish guy alen O'Neal incredibly intelligent a man with Charisma and personality just off the charts but I worked with him at smartstream okay what did he do there prells at smart stream real character absolute character where was he from Dublin or he was no he was uh down south I think corway okay um as you know those Irish and they they they've got the chat he he had a story for everybody it was incredible I need to meet this man oh you you'd love him you'd love him he's gone on to set up businesses and been massively successful good um but he he'd been boxing most of his life yeah kickboxing specifically oh really and he went to a gym in Sydney um and he said you should come down to the gym yeah oh all right I'll go down to the gym and they ran classes on a lunchtime um and it was a great way to keep fit and it it just the bug just gets to you you keep going you get better you get better you get better yeah um and then you know you start training I one-on-one with a coach and you just get better and better and you love it yeah well the thing is a lot of people think you know be if you're a martial artist or a boxer you're a bully or you're it could be further from the truth because it's the most humbling thing it is you also know what you can do if you were to go up against someone that doesn't know what they're doing yeah and the amount of discipline and what they can do to you if you go up with someone that's better than you yeah you know like get Co you get your ass hand to Da I don't care who you are you Mike Tyson got his ass handed to him in the gym we all have if we got a little over ourselves yeah the coach Sean who who ended up being a good mate as well yeah he' let you know he'd very quickly let you know that you haven't got all the tools in the tool box I love it so when you fought that night so I'll just tell the audience what happened you were fighting in the white collar and you called me you said look will you come and be my corner and I said of course I'll be honored to so I flew a couple of the guys over and it was a black tire event and um I couldn't believe how lean you had got so like what weight did you get down to so that that was the hedge fund fight night that had been running in Hong Kong for a number of years and some friends of mine had done it the year before and it was like just it was in a tent it was a literally a marquee event and it was in a 10 it was a marquee event outside um the stadium where they hold the Hong it was so put on oh it was it was really well very professionally done yeah um and we trained with jab gym uh Andrew wonkey and that was an incredible gym they had professional fighters in there they had um um BJJ guys in there and it was just a wonderful gym to to be part of um and we were lucky enough to get five months of in intense training wow with them um so you had a proper camp right proper camp we we we were doing twice a day some days um and they had it all planned out and they it was it was proper training it was really well organized um it was a selection process as well you started with a much bigger group and then they they gradually Whitt it Whitt it down to the last I think 12 14 you say 7 78k I can't remember I got down to 73 for I fought at 73 wow what did you weigh yourself the day day after no you didn't balloon up did you the the day after I was full of booze beer and noodles so I was probably a bit heavier well that night I think you fought last I fought last and and the thing is you were the only one that won by a knockout yep and that was your Cinderella Man moment because you were given you didn't just win and you weren't the only guy that won by knockout you were given box of the night I was get far of the night yeah that's right I I you'll never that that's got to be one of the best nights of your life that was one of the highlights of my life it's the only time I've ever seen you nervous though cuz you I I don't think you know you you like the thing about boxing is it's not like losing a game of tennis it's the possibility that you're going to get knocked out sparked in front of all your family and friends do you know what it it wasn't getting hurt it wasn't getting knocked out my biggest fear that I'd lose yeah yeah that fear drove training it drove everything yeah um what if you lose but tell tell people what it's like because the thing is that adrenaline it just burns up all your energy you know before you even halfway through the first round you've got to be careful to control that and I was way more nervous the day before were you the day of the fight you got to The Venue walked around the ring got familiar with the ring you do a little bit of visualization you know you're in the ring what's going to happen what are you going to do how's this going to go you do all those things and they're real they work of course um and then the actual as we got towards the fight my nerves went disappeared completely and I I I felt as I came through that changing room yeah and did the ring walk I wasn't nervous at that point yeah as the bell's about to go and that period where you you've got your gloves on you've got your headgear on and you're waiting for the Bell to go that's boun gloves do you remember that they got you to wear could you wear your own gloves or they gave you gloves they gave us gloves yeah yeah cuz the amateur gloves that Kaden wears they are so padded like we had 16 o yeah so his are only I think 12 but they are unlike any other type of glove you've ever seen they're very padded and you can't almost hold your fist properly you know I've got a question for you cuz I've uh I've actually got a lot of indirect backlash with Kaden be in boxing right uh where people have kind of intimated you know brain trauma this that and the other and of course you know I love my son and I'm I'm well aware of all the challenges um but you know would you have the girls do boxing or if you had a son would you cuz cuz I I think there's so many wonderful benefits to it of course there are the risks but what do you think I think there's risks in any sport I think um the discipline with boxing the learning the technique yeah that you could box for a lifetime and never perfect it yeah um the fitness yeah it gives you so much the it humbles you as an individual yeah you you respect your opponents I think it it gives you massive amounts but you know you know what cracks me up it's all these idiots that have never even laced up a pair of gloves and they're telling you what they think and they know I think I think they relate boxing to a fight on a street where you know people are are getting very badly hurt it's not like that it's not like that and yes yes there're a risk they're inherent risks but you could fall off a mountain bike and hit your head on a tree stump for sure um for sure but I also think what what they don't realize is a lot a lot of people I think anyone that does boxing for example and does quite a lot of of combat sport you you're built differently you're you're the way that you think I mean think about this you and I have traveled abroad at a very young age you we we don't think like everyone else and I I think you have to lean into who you are right and I absolutely I I love it I just think it's it's unbridled I think the important thing with boxing you're not just training to hit yeah you're training not to get hit yeah most importantly and those that win are those that can hit yeah but can really know how not to get hit yeah so who do you think's going to win Fury or usik it's a CH I think I'd like to see usyk win but then I'd like to see Fury win so it sets up a real big fight with AJ coming down the coming down the I'm going to go first I'm going to tell you what I I think I think Fury is going to win and I think it's a it's a case of a good big man's going to be better than a a good small man um but I think he's going to get put on his ass because people forget he fought a guy called Steve Cunningham who was also a cruiserweight who was fast and Fury's trained for this because he knows what he's up against um but it it's going to be a chess match and that's what really makes it interested it's going to be exciting to watch it really is isn't it it's um but I've now that it's it's it's around the corner I don't know I wasn't that excited about it and maybe it was because of after Fury fought and ganu um but I think now I'm thinking now listen this guy's up for it he's because I've seen pictures of him yesterday and he look he's in shape he's in shape there's also a lot of stories around will it will he pull out will it actually happen so I think there's some trepidation as whether he will actually get through the ropes I'm I'm sure he will I'm sure it's just media but he's he's not afraid no he's not afraid he's not afraid and he wants to test himself we'll see we'll see what happens it'll be exciting it'll be so who are your top three fighters of all time current or past wow cuz you didn't grow up watching boxing like me right you I didn't I came to it much much later cuz a lot of your a lot of your favorite boxers are from Australia because you you watch that locally I think Tim zoo I mean he's current yeah did you watch his last fight yep yeah yeah um I think he's an incredible talent I think he's got the mentality and he'll go on to do good things yeah he's not afraid to lose yeah and he'll take any fight which is Virgil Ortiz coming up next he's a hard man yeah uh who's never lost yeah and um Zoo just lost his last fight yeah um to a guy who came in at the last minute and was 6'2 yeah to zoo is what 5'8 5' s yeah um so Fighters like that I think and it's not just the the fighting ability it's it's it's their mentality it's their willingness it's their um desire to succeed in what is an incredibly difficult sport that's what you respect you you enjoy the UFC as well right yeah yeah I don't watch as much UFC I'll be honest you know the thing about if I was to be able to take you to a live event unequivocally it would it would be a UFC event if it was a good car because those cards are stacked it's like 5 hours yeah right and top to bottom it's stacked whereas in a big boxing event it's normally just a top fight although I think that's changing with these Saudi fights You' now got undercards that is absolutely stacked with quality I think that's changing I think it is changing but see the problem is when I've gone to Big boxing events in Madison Square Garden and Vegas uh because of the way they they stacked the cards people are only turning up for the last one or two fights so imagine you're fighting an MSG right and that's been your dream and there's 10% capacity so so The Field's not there I think that's down to the promoters which is what what they're changing they have to changeing but I tell you what uh turkey has completely changed the game completely and I think credit to Eddie hn who's been willing to change what has been the norm and go okay I love these new this new series that they're putting on I'm go yeah it's going to be incredible you've got the five versus five coming up yeah um Eddie Hearn and Frank Warren's Fighters five of each versus five of his but isn't it isn't it cool that these two guys are from the UK it's F fabulous but it would never happened without tury no alake well he's he's got the daos right he has got everything he needs to make it happen and he keeps popping up everywhere you know he's signing everyone he's becoming the the the main man in in World Boxing it's crazy so now this is the this is the really interesting part you went to Australia I saw you off at the airport I was I was visiting from New York and you just moved there you didn't have anything right you sold the business sorry back up you sold the business right sold the business to Talent International they were looking you stayed on for a bit they were looking to get into the Asian market I stayed on for two years to work with them and they were a fantastic company how was it going from running your own firm to working with someone it could have been a nightmare but they made it very easy fair play it was excellent I really enjoyed um that transition um for the first time I ended up working for some people that I perhaps didn't rate um but you just get through that and Carry On and things find a natural equilibrium as time moves on I work for a man called Richard Earl who I've got the absolute utmost respect for he was did an incredible job of building Talent International from nothing into what is today a billion dollar Revenue company amazing um which is just phenomenal amazing and you learn from people like that he's the most humble guy if you met him on a plane you'd have no idea amazing what he built um so I caught it up with him recently actually we had din is is his background recruit or did he did he fall into it did he come from a different I think he's he it was initially it and he started out in contract recruitment in per and built this incredible business I mean it contract recruitment when it was on it was on yeah exactly gez exactly and that's still their bread and butter today yeah yeah so what was the Genesis behind you guys decided to to go to Australia we had two beautiful girls um and my wife wanted someone cleaner and Greener to bring them up the dirty air in Hong Kong was having an effect on them uh as kids odd coughs and respiratory issues but pollution is a very real thing right you feel it you see it yeah we we had an apartment a beautiful apartment that overlooked um the water and Hong Kong Disneyland and then the the shipping channels beyond that yeah and you could see this this yellow Haze coming through yeah um and that was just sheer pollution yeah um it wasn't every day it was when the wind was blowing the right direction but so how did you choose Adelaide bruss of Valley we had a map on the back of the door in the study it was a world map okay um cuz you both lived in Australia so you knew it but we knew Australia but we left Australia saying we wouldn't go back oh really we didn't want to go back and live in city I didn't know that okay um we we had certain criteria it to make it easier we wanted an english- speaking country yeah um but to be fair you know that that that still gives you Hong Kong Singapore Dubai yeah but you had you had the uh accessibility in terms of visas right as in there wasn't really visa restrictions anywhere we could have gone could have gone anywhere you can get a Visa AR yeah um and having been through the process in several countries you know while it might seem like a challenge and it is a little bit of a challenge you can always overcome it um but I was I was also ready to go back towards Europe the UK and that was that would have been my number one choice to get back closer to family uh um my wife was from South Africa her family had immigrated to Australia so she wanted the same thing yeah um ultimately I lost by the way anyone listening to this it's a it's an interesting lesson in in marriage right because there's always that decision point and uh it's a tough one if you marry someone who come from a different place you're always going to have those conversations at some point there's going to be a fork in the road and you need to have that conversation listen mate my wife's a lawyer right you've got no professor and I I wrote this on Facebook the other day I said we've been together like 22 years um I think I might win an argument some at some point in the future if you're lucky yeah and then she'll let you win yeah she would have done she would have done um so you turn up you're you're you're in you moved straight to brosa you weren't in Adelaide right so we we we'd had this world map okay and English speaking and then we said right we we want to live rural we've been watching too much of a show called Gourmet farmer okay and this guy had moved out of Sydney to Tasmania he was a food critic and he bought this farm and he started farming pigs and chickens and growing vegetables and then opened a restaurant and we were watching the show going oh fantastic oh this is the life for me look at that I'm going to do that so I blame him for an awful lot okay uh Pete Evans Pete have you listening um and we went barasa on holiday actually um I'd gone down to Sydney with Talent International for a conference on the back of that conference we did a weekend visit to the brussa valley we liked it and we decided to go back so we went back for a holiday uh took the kids with us Tanya's dad came down as well my wife's dad came down as well and it turned out through a family connection she knew the wine maker one of the bar's most renowned wineries wow we made contact with him his name was all over these magazines and whatnot and the and then oh wow this guy's a a rockstar um we made contact with him ended up going out to his house uh met him and his wife who was also South African we had the most wonderful afternoon drinking wine and eating cheese and enjoying the brussa countryside and all of a sudden we saw this idilic lifestyle and decision was made and literally before we left we bought an old Cottage that was for sale we saw this place for sale is that where I stayed yeah drove past it and beautiful beautiful and essentially that was then decision sealed bang we we we were we were heading there it took a couple of years before we moved okay I didn't realize that it was a couple of years of buying interior design magazines and renovation magazines so when you bought it what did you have it rented out for that period we rented it out yeah okay yep yep um and it had these Grand plans of turning it into a B&B and renovating to look beautiful and um but I think for anybody thinking of renovating it's uh it's not an idilic process it's a very difficult process it takes longer and it's more expensive than you thought it would be yeah um and you don't necessarily get exactly what you wanted or the picture you painted in your mind when you started out for sure but we we went through this process we ended up with a a beautiful home and decided that we'd live in it rather than actually B&B it which is what the initial plan was um well and also coming out of even though you had an amazing apartment in Hong Kong in contrast you know you've now got a landed property and I've been to your place you're overlooking beautiful Fields we're surrounded by The Vines we overlooking the vines we're we're on a road that's got some of the most wonderful wineries in the brussa on that road Rockford wines Charles Melton wines Grant Burge wines esparosa wines um it it was it was the ideal that we what percentage of people in bruss are alcoholics it's probably quite high right I think there's very few that are prepared to admit it um I think when you go to the doctors for the checkup and they ask you how much do you drink in a weekly basis the doctors in Barosa have moved their scale they have their own scale they put a couple of zeros on the units the norm has moved somewhat um but it's wonderful product you know it's an incredible part of the world yeah it is it really is but there's not employment opportunities are very different yeah something that we probably hadn't considered in you didn't have jobs to go to right no we we decided that we'd go there we'd renovate the house we'd take a year out okay refresh get the lay of the land that's a big decision for both of you cuz you know you got two young children it's it it was a lot of Courage it was a big decision it was it was um I don't regret that decision I still think how did that year go by it's it's probably not what you thought it would be it went a flash I don't know what we did yeah it it was a year before we knew it yeah um the end of that year I went and worked at vintage with Dutchy wines where we I actually was a seller hand during the the wine making wine making season okay I didn't know that so we did Harvest and we made some incredible wines his his wines are absolutely fabulous um and that that sort of made me think I don't want to be a wine maker yeah um and then an opportunity arose to do something else and I sort of ran down that path so I remember you telling me on the ferry from disc Discovery Bay to Central in Hong Kong saying I want to make pizzas and you you would always read Pizza magazines right that was that was something I wanted to do and you've listen you've always been a great chef I mean I I actually can cook but all the time we live together I you know I think you're a better Chef than I am but I would never let you know that I could cook because that way you would otherwise I would cook yeah yeah is that terrible probably but go on yeah um yeah look that was there was a a business called Pizza pilgrims in the UK that I'd watched come up from nothing okay and they created a very very successful business um and I'd always been passionate about that and I thought okay now's the opportunity if we ever going to open a restaurant to do it so that was the plan and we went right down the track of opening a restaurant yeah um we'd secured a venue orbe it needed some work we'd had an architect look at it and draw up some plans do you have to sign like a two or threee lease when you do that it was a it was a 5year lease wow and we were literally on the the eve of signing that lease when we sat down and said you know what we don't have the skills and experience to pull this off we have the passion but we don't have the skills and experience to pull we're not restaurant well well that introspection would have helped by the way I sent you a book I bet you never bloody read it it was it was a book like the dummies guy to running a restaurant or something cuz I remember thinking cuz just when you open those but take away the title it's like mate your weekends are gone you're going to the Farmers Market at 4:00 a.m. do you know what you're getting yourself into and I know you never read that book if I'd read that book I probably wouldn't have done it because those things are all true your weekends are gone yeah gone it's a s-day business whether you irrespective what your opening hours are um and in a regional area where you don't have a lot of people yeah you got to get stuck in you it's hard going so what happened then when you so we said no we said we wouldn't do it and there was a sense of relief that we haven't done it and I'll I was then chatting to a wine maker friend with we'd had a few too many wines sat in his back Garden around a fire pit and he said that he'd been trying to make gin um during vintage when it's hot and you're in a dirty hot shed they were drinking reasing and described it as sports drink so that was how they hydrated themselves was reasing because they made reasing okay and when they got bored of reasing they were drinking gin and Sonic they made their own reasing they didn't make their own gin so the natural Next Step was to make their own gin and by the way you've always loved Jin well well you've drunk enough of it I I wasn't gin wasn't really my number one drink I know but I always remember you having I'd have a gin and tonic but it wasn't my I wasn't passionate about gin you're always a whiskey guy is it and the these days it was Hendrick yeah that was that was the only that was the craft gin that was taking over the world anyway I said all right I'll pick up with this project and I'll run with it which is what I did and the initial goal was to produce one gin that was two 2016 started it in April March April 2016 launched the Gin in on world gin day June the the 11th 2016 yeah and here we are um May 2024 and we've now got a range of Gins I think we've got seven Gins that we do in total well tell the firstly you've got a beautiful Distillery the whole the whole setup's amazing stunning and pictures don't do it justice because when I was there I was like wow I mean that the bar and everything so we were lucky enough to to pick up a space that by coincidence was initially uh identified as being part of that pizza restaurant I was talking about yeah so we took part of that space and turned it into a bar and a tasting room but that space was previously the the old the penfolds Brandy Distillery yeah so all the old equipment in there is in there and it's a unique it's a unique look into the distilling history of the brussa valley yeah and a critical part of the alcohol industry in Australia and its history um so it's it's a great glimpse into that that you just wouldn't otherwise get so we're very lucky to get that space well fast forward you called me not that long ago a few weeks ago and said like there's a possibility that uh we're going to win a competition I'm thinking of flying to London tell us about that that's probably been the highlight of this gin Journey so far but um I received an email from the the the world gin Awards in London to say it would be worth your while flying to London for our awards ceremony it's a it's a long flight I'm sting thinking how worthwhile yeah um that's an expensive flight and it's a long way yeah and I'm not doing it unless it's really worthwhile so I sent an email back saying exactly that to which I got a response it'd be a good idea to come okay um and sure enough yeah jumped on a plane and and went over and congrats mate there we were at the awards ceremony we won the the world's best flavored gin for our brosa sh 900 entrance there was about 900 entrance in the competition in total um that that's amazing we had to win the country rounds first which we did for Australia and then all the countries around the world it's like a knockout tournament all those all those people were there on the night and to start the event all those country Wills were called up onto the stage oh really and I'm there with about eight other country winners thinking oh my god I've flown over here to receive a country winner award oh is that what you think I didn't know that I sat back down and said sat next to another gym producer from Australia who'd flown over Adam um he when you saw him there you thought oh he he was there for the same reason I was although all be a different category of the competition yeah and I said M I don't think this is what we think it is um anyway our award was announced first fortunately so I didn't have to sit there yeah stressing all night stressing all night like the Oscars mate um and sure enough the world's best flavored gin is barasa amazing and I was oh wow this that's incredible that's incredible cuz cuz when you told me that I mean I think you it didn't didn't really hit you at first but I just said it's not it's not like you're okay you're entering a a marathon and there are 900 competitors this is these are 900 companies that have been set up by people that love the product they' put everything into it it's not even like going up against 900 employees for for some massive businesses some are small craft operations it's huge it it was huge and what was your speech like did you say anything there was no speech there was no speech you're probably relieved right which I I was relieved I was Rel what were you wearing uh um did you wear a suit you wear a tux no it wasn't a tux it wasn't a black tie event just um smart jacket and and and trousers but amazing um yeah it was it was a great night it was a great event and the enormity of it didn't really sink in I I contacted our our marketing manager back in Australia while I was at the event to say oh and the rest of the team say hey guys we won yeah and and she put out a little post to say well we we won this thing and all of a sudden my phone started going nuts up and there was all these Tech these people congrats congrats congrats oh wow actually this is this is something when I got back it it really have felt it sank in yeah um I got letters from you know Federal MPS the mayor well it's it was it was it was yeah people saw it as a big thing I think you've got you've probably got to take advantage of it more than you are even I think I still underestimate it now I I really think you you know because in listen in any competition I mean you imagine if your daughters were in a school competition or in the region you know you you've come first you you're talking about global it's crazy yeah and you know what I'm more excited about I want to taste your whiskey tonight we would have a dribble now but it's it's not even lunchtime but you we should maybe have put the bottle on the table as an afterthought Isaac can you be kind enough young Isaac there's a black box on the bar can you bring it but be careful because there's a whiskey in it it's a black box please mate yeah because um did you have a sip of that last night you didn't did you did you break it open no I've got two okay I was going to say if you broke that bottle open I'd be really unhappy I've got two yeah I'm I don't know why cuz I I'm a whiskey guy right and the bottle is absolutely beautiful it is it is we're delighted we work with an amazing design company so when he brings it you you you can tell us all about how that came to light because thanks please pass that to thank you so yeah this this Ginger Journey it was about making gin but I think as soon as we realized we knew how to distill and we set up a Distillery properly when we bought the Ste I bought a Ste that was designed to make whiskey it can make gin perfectly well but it's designed to make whiskey and there's certain things you need to think about with the steel the angle of the line arm and various different bit of pieces to make good whiskey or make the style of whiskey you would like to make um and this was the the first whiskey that we produced what a beautiful bottle um and yeah Lean Forward just move the mic forward and yeah so I I'll just put that up there but that's the first whiskey we produced this is my first time holding it mate that's absolutely stunning I'm worried that this might not survive very long is this yours or is this my bottle your bottle's upstairs oh okay look at that beautiful so the process to make this it's at least four four years right so that that's a six-year-old okay with whiskey the the the physical process cut it very short you make a beer essentially beer you distill it and you've got a new make spirit that goes into a barrel it ages in a barrel for a period of time but you've got to buy a specific type of Barrel right you got did you buy barrels depends on the the type of whiskey you're trying to make you can use new Oak you can use old oak you can use a combination of the two you can use small barrels you can use regular size barrels and they all have they all have an impact on that whiskey as does the climate in which it's aging have you had that with a cigar uh I'm not a cigar man I know you're a cigar man you're going you're going to have a you're at least going to have a couple of Puffs tonight you you can enjoy it with a cigar I mean it's that's that's what whiskey and cigars that the pairing of them I've spent six years crafting that flavor yeah and that's what the whole business is about is Flavor yeah everything we do from cocktails toins to the whiskey it's about flavor and we're looking for that physical response in someone when they taste our product we want that oh that's nice that's what we're looking for if we get that we've ticked a box we're happy um but you know guys like us you know we we're Foodies right so we want to go and eat like all the meals we had yesterday we were just enjoying but that puts a smile on your face when it tastes that good that's the reaction we're looking for so the goal is now we're going to bring that and Jin to Singapore hopefully bring that into Singapore that is the goal and and get it into the hands directly of the consumers here who are interested in those flavors well listen we talked a little bit about some of the ideas that you've got but tell us about uh what we talked about where we you could you could for the Gin in particular bring it to the consumer and let them brand it because I I think that's such a unique novel idea and I think a lot of the private banking people I work with would really buy into that concept yeah it's it's something we've been doing in Australia for a number of years um just explain you know but corporate gifts essentially yeah but it's a corporate gift with a difference they put more thought in it they haven't gone out and and put a logo on a notepad or a phone charger or whatever it might be this is a craft product that's been lovingly crafted the the client has tasted through our products and chosen one of our our products whether it's a a gin a vodka or lure whatever it might be or whiskey um and they've decided that that suits what they want to do yeah um we can then design the the label we can select a bottle for them if they want to get a different bottle um we can do boxes gift presentation boxes um and they can give it out to their clients we've got a a property well your sorry to your bottles are so beautiful once once I finish one of those gym bottles I'm going to recycle it yes well I'm going to use that one specifically I've decided for olive oil cuz I you know I love cooking I I have exactly that in my kitchen as well yeah it's just it's perfect it's a beautiful bottle we work with a a French um glass manufacturer um so what was the creative process behind this cuz this must have taken a lot of time I wish I wish I we could have come up with that creatively but um we knew what we wanted you spent a fortune probably getting it done we did we knew what we wanted we wanted something that was Sleek contemporary stood out from the crowd um and just looked great on a on a bar a sideboard whatever it might be um and we we'd already chosen the glass so we went to the design agency in Sydney called denomination who've done some incredible design work if anyone wants to just look up their website or some of their social channels um you'll see the design work denomination um beautiful design work and such lovely people to work with Rena kis good um and they gave us three options and I I actually went to Sydney and spent a full afternoon sitting with them creating what your ideas were and we had a conversation a little bit similar to this yeah but they were focusing on the the Glasgow whiskey distillation part of my journey um by the way have you been to any of the distilleries in Scotland or Ireland I have yeah you have yeah absolutely we we should do that an incredible trip yeah under the name of research um but they dug quite deep okay and the the the designs that they presented to us incredibly reflected some very finer details of the things I told them yeah um which is quite impressive but this this particular design just and what's the the meaning behind the name gas so gas is a a glaswegian slang term um if you've gone for a night out and you talking to your mates next day or I had a gas night last night or you know that was a gas meal we ate um or you know look that game of soccer was yeah what a gas game they played and you know it's it's conf but traditionally it also means confident bold but it means good great yeah um so it fitted with what the story we were trying to tell I I think with with so many different products and what have you getting something that's Timeless that's classic right that so that that that to me is Black Tie that's top draw right so yeah yeah yeah I'm looking forward to a sip later for sure yeah M you've you've done so tremendously well I'm so proud of you and uh thank it takes it takes a lot really to to Pivot you know it's you know what also amazes me I was talking to my brother about this and in real terms we F I mean we spent a lot of time together during that short period where you lived in Singapore but beyond that if you think about it we don't see each other that often so it's been two years since but you know our friendship is just it's you know it's only gotten stronger um why do you think that is it's it's I think it's those deep connections that you created early on yeah and I think they just they don't run out I think they're always there but I do think friendship requires like you you came to my wedding I came to yours and um but also I think because we've both lived abroad and traveled abroad and maybe because we were bus business owners in the same industry we we know each other's pains do you know what I mean 100% I think I think though it all starts with that initial connection that you develop with somebody and you carry it through and you go on that Journey with them um I I learned so much from you over the years cuz you're you're 5 years older than me you don't look it unfortunately did did we have to get that in I'm 46 by the way you want to do the math but um 48 but uh no but I I when I when I think back at it it was like one of the things that you said to me that really I said this the other night when I had those clients over for dinner but you probably don't know how big an impact it had on me cuz I was at an all-time low I was on commission only I was earning I living off $350 a day three cans of tuna and um and I I was just like at breaking point and I believed in myself and we were in Republic Plaza you bought me a coffee and you said Paul you just need to find a boss that believes in you that can see how great you are and I it was it was just one one statement one sentence but you know I I kind I'd actually hit that's why you now work for yourself you found a boss that believes in you yeah exactly you because I've you know I I never worked for a good boss I mean I never I mean the closest I came to it was perhaps Graeme Corner that owns Black Mountain he's a very nice guy um understated um but I I never found someone and I never understood this it's like when you recognize talent and and I felt I had it you know why don't you nurture it and you know training development and with my background the one thing I know is I see things through right in everything and I I'll how I do anything is how I do everything and I've NE I never understood why why couldn't anyone see it um and I think people are very shortterm they want okay they even I I speak to people today they're all talking about what's the cost when we hire this person when will they break even I said you're looking at this all wrong this is a long investment you know you're hiring this guy this guy's been in the same job for a dozen years he's not a job Hopper you're talking about is he going to break even six months you should be asking yourself what's this guy going to do for my business over the course of the next 10 years yeah you stand behind him and he he'll deliver yeah um and I've always felt that that's the shame of of of the recruitment industry what were the the top two or three things that you loved about Recruitment and what were the two or three things that you despised winning those deals is what you love that's why you do it but it's it's putting the right person in the right role in The Right company yeah that that is simply what it boils down to because if you do that the right person in the right role with the right company um the client is happy because they're building their talent pool they know they're building their talent pool with the right people yeah uh and those right people are hard to find which is why recruitment has a value um the right business with the right culture that's critical if somebody goes in somewhere and they don't feel comfortable in that environment they're not going to last very long and they're not going to be successful um you need to set them up for Success um and the right candidate you know somebody who's looking to to progress they've got skills and experience that's perhaps not being as as um recognize where they are and it's time for them to move on or take the next step in their the natural next step in their career and you're helping them do that yeah um and that's really rewarding it is um because if you get that that deal correct and all those three things in place everybody's happy yeah and it's it's a good job and you move on to the next that that's really what you do it for what what were some of the major challenges that you think you face when you look back and think that that was hard work that was stressful um sometimes it it can be very stressful because you're making promises to clients that you've then got to deliver on and some of those searches are incredibly hard they're Global searches you you're looking all over the world for one person yeah um and candidates considerations are huge it's not just individuals most of the time it's their families and they've got to move schools and all sorts of things um so while you might have found the right person for the right company um in the right job the external environmental factors don't fall into play and it doesn't happen and that that's probably one of the most frustrating elements and then you've got to go out and do it again yeah um so you you you're already you know um looking in every and cranny um for the right person you find them and then you've got to go and do it again I I want I remember describing it as it's like losing your wallet you lose your wallet you've got to search everywhere and find it and then you go and lose your wallet again how frustrating is that yeah it's a funny one right it's a funny one I think one of the things that uh a lot of the people I've worked with in the past um when they're toing to canons they're so focused on the search and I always say but look that person might be relevant for something else and and it's interesting because if you have a very uh binary way of thinking you can't connect the dots so like like like job leads referrals um and you know one of the things I've done a lot is I try to introduce people well I might not even be involved there may not be a placement but I can see two people connecting and becoming friends and from that something develops and I've always believed if you try and help people it'll come back to you right and I don't do it for that reason but I've just seen it too many times well that that's the result of doing a good job job yeah I think so client and candidate I think so so but but um yeah I think one of the the the challenges and I've tried to reframe the way I think about recruitment is I've always I said to you yesterday I think most clients and candidates uh feel that oh well we get paid um and it's a transaction and that's our thank you but you know I really feel that the best recruiters me and you you know included we give our heart and soul to things like we speak to candidates you know if I'm moving somebody across from the UK to Asia you know you want to make sure that that the whole family settles in if for any reason it goes wrong so one lady that I placed in Hong Kong lost her job after six or seven months and let's just say I I believe 90% of it was politics and I felt so bad for her and she was very senior and it took me uh maybe s months to find her a new role yeah and um if I wasn't one that placed there or I couldn't get paid I was okay I just wanted to go to bat for her but fortunately I was able to find her a new role cuz you do you do get emotionally involved right you do want to make sure course you do of course you do these are major life decisions that you're helping people make well apart from getting married I think changing jobs is is arguably especially at a senior level where it's often changing jobs moving house moving countries that's right changing the kids school so it's it's it's got everything in there that's right is there anything else you want to cover you know it's great to have this chat with you anything that you want to talk about or no I don't think it's been it's been good to sit down and have this conversation I think we've we've followed the journey so far now it's where does it go from here well I think where it goes from here is you've got you've got to book your next ticket and we start selling that and uh I think you're absolutely right I can I can feel the opportunity here so I'm I'm looking forward to been a good few days yeah spending a bit oh really good really good so yeah spending some more time in Singapore and and bringing our product to Singapore sort of completes the circle in some ways good man mate I appreciate it love you mate thank you very much love you too [Music]

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